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Old 29th July 2020, 08:05 PM   #121
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
You think because a couple of people here aren't taking your hyperbole seriously means that you are right in treating all men as predators because they smile at you?

And yeah it's not like violence against men happens all the time or anything...
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Old 29th July 2020, 08:15 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
You think because a couple of people here aren't taking your hyperbole seriously means that you are right in treating all men as predators because they smile at you?

And yeah it's not like violence against men happens all the time or anything...
Well I'm certainly not calling out all men in this thread as being predators. But I'm not going around pointing out how they're being an ally if they are one, because that's what they should be doing, that's the minimum, is being a decent human being and considering how another person's experience, which they are recounting, is valid. Of course, I have seen my fair share of men on the Forum indulge in petty little sparring matches to the point of ludicrousness, but usually it's regarding a topic on which I assume they have some authority or experience which allows them to argue their point. YOU DO NOT HAVE THAT AUTHORITY HERE. So, in essence, that makes you the 'predator' in the thread. You're one of the men being the bad guy. Not all the guys are being bad guys, but you are! Congratulations! Yes, I am lumping you in with the men you seek to defend in order to demean my point and my experience. You have given me the information I need, from your blustering, ridiculous defense of men against a woman's shared experience.

P.S. Would you like to pepper in a #alllivesmatter to close, next time? Or do you just want to stick in the realm of violence against women? (I advise the latter, but it sure sounds like you're leaning into the misguided arguments of the former.)
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Old 29th July 2020, 08:29 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by MoeFaux View Post
Well I'm certainly not calling out all men in this thread as being predators. But I'm not going around pointing out how they're being an ally if they are one, because that's what they should be doing, that's the minimum, is being a decent human being and considering how another person's experience, which they are recounting, is valid. Of course, I have seen my fair share of men on the Forum indulge in petty little sparring matches to the point of ludicrousness, but usually it's regarding a topic on which I assume they have some authority or experience which allows them to argue their point. YOU DO NOT HAVE THAT AUTHORITY HERE. So, in essence, that makes you the 'predator' in the thread. You're one of the men being the bad guy. Not all the guys are being bad guys, but you are! Congratulations! Yes, I am lumping you in with the men you seek to defend in order to demean my point and my experience. You have given me the information I need, from your blustering, ridiculous defense of men against a woman's shared experience.

P.S. Would you like to pepper in a #alllivesmatter to close, next time? Or do you just want to stick in the realm of violence against women? (I advise the latter, but it sure sounds like you're leaning into the misguided arguments of the former.)
Wow. Just wow. You are actually saying I'm defending predators, could you be more disingenuous? Let's start with some actual facts shall we? Most men are decent people. Most men do not assault women. Most men are not predators.

Accusing me of being a bad guy because I take offense at your comments in this thread is pathetic. Claiming that my comments support your hyperbole is even more so. I have taken offense because you absolutely lump all men into your paranoid hysteria.
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Old 29th July 2020, 08:33 PM   #124
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Unintended result of wearing a mask during a pandemic? Misogyny!
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Old 29th July 2020, 08:35 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
The post I replied to was this,


Feel free to point me to any content I missed,

Please do read the thread though,
I miss parts of it all the time just cos I went out and did a daily shop.
This was the content of the post that you replied to - you then attempted to divert it to queue jumpers - something that I did not post about.
My post was regarding daily harassment that women put up with.
Originally Posted by EHocking;
...Most of us men simply don’t have the experience of being constantly harassed by strangers when out in public. If we were exposed to the same harassment, perhaps we might be able to change our dismissive attitude to “just” hand gestures.

I once sat by my wife and two nieces relating their experiences. Probably started by me talking about something I’d seen while commuting on public transport.

It was not the severity of the harassment that these three women talked about (40, 30, 20 yrs) that horrified me, and some stories did relate to actual physical assault, what horrified me the most was the frequency of the harassment they had to deal with. They practically run a daily gauntlet of harassment.

We (men) can afford to be dismissive of “just” a bit of a creep following them home, or “just” a leer, or “just” a hand gesture, or “just” an up skirt photo, “just” a hand on your arse, “just” brushing up against you on a crowded train - because it does not happen to us on practically a daily basis.

This is not an exaggeration for effect.

That sideways glance you give that cute young girl walking along the street?
Imagine experiencing that every time you go outside to walk to work, or go shopping or go out with your friends.
This is something that (most) men just don’t have to endure.

I thought I was pretty aware (I refuse to use “woke”), but I had my eyelids not just opened, but ripped apart after hearing my wife and nieces relating the unease and fear that they are subjected to on nearly a daily basis.

Any men here, speak to any girl or woman in your life about this - and I mean keep your mouth shut and your opinions to yourself and listen to them.
You will be horrified and hopefully you will reassess (at least) how you behave in public and hopefully your reaction and assessment of stories like that in the OP.
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Old 29th July 2020, 08:40 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post

We (men) can afford to be dismissive of “just” a bit of a creep following them home, or “just” a leer, or “just” a hand gesture, or “just” an up skirt photo, “just” a hand on your arse, “just” brushing up against you on a crowded train - because it does not happen to us on practically a daily basis.
I do not believe this happens to most women on a "practically daily basis".
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Old 29th July 2020, 08:41 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
I do not believe this happens to most women on a "practically daily basis".
Then you are living in a fantasy world, because it does.
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Old 29th July 2020, 08:42 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Wow. Just wow. You are actually saying I'm defending predators, could you be more disingenuous? Let's start with some actual facts shall we? Most men are decent people. Most men do not assault women. Most men are not predators.

Accusing me of being a bad guy because I take offense at your comments in this thread

is pathetic.

Claiming that my comments support your hyperbole is even more so. I have taken offense because you absolutely lump all men into

your paranoid hysteria.


Ah, yes, the old refrain, "Not All Men!"

Not all men. But you! You like throwing negative words at a lady online. Clearly, evidence of a real stand-up, good fellow.
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Old 29th July 2020, 08:44 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Then you are living in a fantasy world, because it does.
Source?
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Old 29th July 2020, 08:45 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
I do not believe this happens to most women on a "practically daily basis".
Nor did I until I heard multiple women talking about it.

Again, the point of my anecdote is that I was stunned, not by the severity of the harassment, but the frequency.
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Old 29th July 2020, 08:45 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by MoeFaux View Post
Ah, yes, the old refrain, "Not All Men!"

Not all men. But you! You like throwing negative words at a lady online. Clearly, evidence of a real stand-up, good fellow.
I'm sorry, next time I engage with you I'll make sure it's on a topic we both agree with.
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Old 29th July 2020, 08:47 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Unintended result of wearing a mask during a pandemic? Misogyny!
Equity
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Old 29th July 2020, 08:47 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Nor did I until I heard multiple women talking about it.

Again, the point of my anecdote is that I was stunned, not by the severity of the harassment, but the frequency.
Anecdotes are exactly that. Anecdotes. Most of what you described is actual sexual assault and your quote stated that it happens to most women on a "practically daily basis". I would like more than anecdotes to support that.
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Old 29th July 2020, 08:58 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Source?
Many, many, many women. You've seen at least two primary sources in this thread.
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Old 29th July 2020, 09:01 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Many, many, many women. You've seen at least two primary sources in this thread.
M'kay.
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Old 29th July 2020, 09:11 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
M'kay.
You want some actual statistics? Okay.

Measuring domestic violence and sexual assault against women

Please note this source. It is the website of the Australian Parliamentary Library. It was last updated in 2006, but there is no reason to believe that the statistics it reports have suddenly become inaccurate in the last 15 years. Here's an extract:

Quote:
The best indicators available are from the ABS Personal Safety Survey 2005 which updates information about women s experiences of violence collected in the 1996 ABS Women s Safety Survey. The 2005 survey also includes information on men s experience of violence but unfortunately does not include all the level of detail on women as published in 1996.

From the 2005 survey the ABS estimated that in the previous 12 months:
  • 363 000 women (4.7 per cent of all women) experienced physical violence; and
  • 126 100 women (1.6 per cent) experienced sexual violence.
The ABS further estimated that:
  • 2.56 million (33 per cent of all women) have experienced physical violence since the age of 15; and
  • 1.47 million (19 per cent) have experienced sexual violence since the age of 15.
From this it is possible to estimate that approximately one in five women (19 per cent) have experienced sexual violence at some stage in their lives since the age of 15 and one in three women (33 per cent) have experienced physical violence at some stage in their lives since the age of 15.
There are more verified statistics at the link.
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Old 29th July 2020, 09:35 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You want some actual statistics? Okay.

Measuring domestic violence and sexual assault against women

Please note this source. It is the website of the Australian Parliamentary Library. It was last updated in 2006, but there is no reason to believe that the statistics it reports have suddenly become inaccurate in the last 15 years. Here's an extract:

There are more verified statistics at the link.
And that is violence against women, I doubt it contains things such as being groped in a crowded space such as bars, clubs, buses, and trains. Not being followed in dark streets or being flashed.

anyways thought I'd add this to the accounts. Ellen Rose is a gamer, and presenter for Outside Xtra, sister channel of Outside XBox.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 29th July 2020, 10:11 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
And that is violence against women, I doubt it contains things such as being groped in a crowded space such as bars, clubs, buses, and trains. Not being followed in dark streets or being flashed.
Correct.
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Old 29th July 2020, 10:33 PM   #139
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Here's just a a quick search result found when I keyed in "not all men" and the word "hysterical!"

This article is from the Guardian six years ago, after "Elliot Rodger murdered six people in Isla Vista, California, citing hatred of women and sexual rejection as the reason for his rampage."

"Women have had enough. The stares. The butt-grabs. The little comments. And now this: a man writes a 140-page misogynist manifesto before killing six people, and yet – still – women are called hysterical for insisting this tragedy was driven by sexism."



"...the Twitter hashtag #YesAllWomen went viral as hundreds of thousands of people shared their experiences with misogyny...#YesAllWomen tried to illustrate the ubiquity of sexism in women's lives. For instance, writer and sex educator Kendall Mckenzie tweeted, "When women trust men, we're naive idiots who should've known better. When women fear men, we're hysterical, paranoid feminazis."



Hysterical. Paranoid. Funny! It's like they're the go-to words for men who want to argue with women about what being a woman is like and why women are wrong. It's so common, this woman referenced it six years ago. Beat ya'll to the punch!





https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-elliot-rodger
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Old 29th July 2020, 10:47 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
I do not believe this happens to most women on a "practically daily basis".

Translation: I've never had a discussion about this subject with any of the women/girls in my life.




[ANECDOTAL ALERT]

The very first catcalls and whistles I received was from a car full of guys driving past me while I was walking down the street on my way home from school. I was 12... wearing a pair of jeans, a t-shirt, runners, and a ponytail. I still remember it clear as day. It scared the crap out of me, I clutched my books tightly to my chest and ran the rest of the way home.

Fast forward to 41 years later and some tree-swinger in the vegetable section of the grocery store will look me up and down with those 'I-want-to-****-you' eyes that we gals are all too familiar with.

Perhaps when I'm 85 years old and hunched over a walker this crap will finally end? Or will it then only be the 85 year old men tossing me their winks and air kisses from across the beefsteak tomatoes?

An entire lifetime of living in a goldfish bowl. The **** never ends, ffs.

[/ANECDOTAL ALERT]
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Old 29th July 2020, 10:54 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
Translation: I've never had a discussion about this subject with any of the women/girls in my life.




[ANECDOTAL ALERT]

The very first catcalls and whistles I received was from a car full of guys driving past me while I was walking down the street on my way home from school. I was 12... wearing a pair of jeans, a t-shirt, runners, and a ponytail. I still remember it clear as day. It scared the crap out of me, I clutched my books tightly to my chest and ran the rest of the way home.

Fast forward to 41 years later and some tree-swinger in the vegetable section of the grocery store will look me up and down with those 'I-want-to-****-you' eyes that we gals are all too familiar with.

Perhaps when I'm 85 years old and hunched over a walker this crap will finally end? Or will it then only be the 85 year old men tossing me their winks and air kisses from across the beefsteak tomatoes?

An entire lifetime of living in a goldfish bowl. The **** never ends, ffs.

[/ANECDOTAL ALERT]


I'm sorry.

Men, that's the moment a girl's childhood ends. The moment innocence is shattered. The moment she realizes she isn't safe in the world. When women learned to look over their shoulder.

Reminds me of a collection of "first cat-call" stories I saw compiled recently. Overwhelmingly, they were stories like this: women recounting being still a child, wearing simple kid clothes, being harassed by grown men, and how they felt bewilderment and fear.
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Old 29th July 2020, 11:02 PM   #142
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Not to try and take anything away from women irl, but rather to add to what is seen, due to reasons I go into elsewhere I tend to play female avatars online and harassment happens there a lot too. I have a lot of female friends on platforms like Second Life and it is often talked about privately how a lot of male avatars will enter a sim and then IM every female avatar on the sim looking for pixel sex (and I'm not even talking about sims that are designed for that) and can say that I see these sorts of requests at least 2-3 times a day when on public sims despite the fact that my profile states that I'm not there for that and I have my best friend listed as my "partner".

I have had male avatars furniture jump my avatar, for those that don't know what this is, in SL some furniture allows for single or couple use. Furniture jumping is joining on to a piece of furniture that is already in use and then hijacking the menu to force the other avatar into a couple's pose, obviously without asking. I had one case where a guy literally sit hacked inside my house on the Sim I own with my best friend with the clear intent of getting into my avatar's pixel panties.

I regularly get IM's telling me that my avatar is beautiful/sexy/gorgeous/hot and if I don't respond in the right way will then get insults and threats.

As a newbie helper at one point I was familiar with a scam where guys that would gift a present to new players with female avatars which were in fact griefer HUDs that when worn would allow the griefer to take over the other player's avatar, which they would then force into pixel sex. They targeted New players because they weren't familiar enough with the game to get out of the situation.

As a new player myself on an MMO I was asked by a male avatar to "pose" with another female avatar (he claimed was his gf) in the default underwear. Later I became aware that there was a nude patch for the game. Luckily my warning bells kept me from falling for that one at the time.

I have even been propositioned on a game's Test Server where players were supposed to be testing an upcoming update and reporting on it to the Devs.

I have not experienced anywhere near the levels of harassment that women irl do, and as I'm online there is always the option to get up and walk away, or just log off if the harassment gets to extreme levels. My avatar can't be physically violated or hurt, nor grabbed and held against her will. I can't imagine what it would be like to deal with what I do online irl, but I know a lot of women that do have to.

It might not be all women, just as not all women have had to deal with sexism in their workplaces, however a recent (2018) study found that 81 percent of women had experienced some form of harassment, 77% of women having been verbally harassed. It also found that over 54% of women felt anxiety or stress about harassment or had been forced to change their routines and routes to avoid it!

Now yes, some men face it too, but the numbers are far less. Just 34% of men reported sexual verbal harassment, and 32% reported anxiety or stress about harassment or having to change their routines and routes.

I can add to that in that when I have used my male avatars in the same games as above I have only ever had a single incident of being propositioned or harassed.

Anyone that believes that sexual harassment and threat to women is not a real thing or is just in womens heads is deluding themselves.
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Old 29th July 2020, 11:02 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by MoeFaux View Post
I'm sorry.

Men, that's the moment a girl's childhood ends. The moment innocence is shattered. The moment she realizes she isn't safe in the world. When women learned to look over their shoulder.

Reminds me of a collection of "first cat-call" stories I saw compiled recently. Overwhelmingly, they were stories like this: women recounting being still a child, wearing simple kid clothes, being harassed by grown men, and how they felt bewilderment and fear.
Yes, and that loss of childhood innocence is usually somewhere between the ages of 5 to 15.

Some of us are lucky enough to get through the first 15 years of our life before men start to remind us of what we're put on the planet for.... but most of us start getting reminded of our female duties before we've sprouted our first pubic hair.
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Old 29th July 2020, 11:03 PM   #144
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Back to my original post again, about how I was enjoying not having to smile. I am looking for that compilation of first cat-calling incident. But this was the first thing that came up for recent news for that search:

From "Coronavirus catcalling is real. Mask or no mask, harassment is all about power."

"I had hoped that wearing a mask would have done more than just protect myself, my family and others from COVID-19. Perhaps, I thought, a sliver of a silver lining would be the ability to take up space in public without a male stranger urging me to smile or whistling as I walked by.

But I was wrong, and so were many other women and/or feminine-presenting people. A quick Twitter search using the words “mask” and “catcalling” reveals that street harassment during coronavirus is alive and well. “It is frustrating to know that even if you are wearing a mask, men will still stare at you and make unnecessary remarks,”




https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...ut-ncna1234185
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Old 29th July 2020, 11:11 PM   #145
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Undoubtedly, this whole coronavirus mask thing is fast becoming an interesting social experiment. Suddenly people are anonymous in the public sphere while they're going about their daily business, and perhaps that newfound anonymity has given some a sense of empowerment (whether it be a wee bit or a lot)?

Fascinating indeed.
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Old 29th July 2020, 11:18 PM   #146
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Some more from Ellen....

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Old 29th July 2020, 11:19 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Not to try and take anything away from women irl, but rather to add to what is seen, due to reasons I go into elsewhere I tend to play female avatars online and harassment happens there a lot too. I have a lot of female friends on platforms like Second Life and it is often talked about privately how a lot of male avatars will enter a sim and then IM every female avatar on the sim looking for pixel sex (and I'm not even talking about sims that are designed for that) and can say that I see these sorts of requests at least 2-3 times a day when on public sims despite the fact that my profile states that I'm not there for that and I have my best friend listed as my "partner".

I have had male avatars furniture jump my avatar, for those that don't know what this is, in SL some furniture allows for single or couple use. Furniture jumping is joining on to a piece of furniture that is already in use and then hijacking the menu to force the other avatar into a couple's pose, obviously without asking.

I regularly get IM's telling me that my avatar is beautiful/sexy/gorgeous/hot and if I don't respond in the right way will then get insults and threats.

As a newbie helper at one point I was familiar with a scam where guys that would gift a present to new players with female avatars which were in fact griefer HUDs that when worn would allow the griefer to take over the other player's avatar, which they would then force into pixel sex. They targeted New players because they weren't familiar enough with the game to get out of the situation.

As a new player myself on an MMO I was asked by a make avatar to "pose" with another female avatar (he claimed was his gf) in the default underwear. Later I became aware that there was a nude patch for the game. Luckily my warning bells kept me from falling for that one at the time.

I have even been propositioned on a game's Test Server where players were supposed to be testing an upcoming update and reporting on it to the Devs.

I have not experienced anywhere near the levels of harassment that women irl do, and as I'm online there is always the option to get up and walk away, or just log off if the harassment gets to extreme levels. My avatar can't be physically violated or hurt, nor grabbed and held against her will. I can't imagine what it would be like to deal with what I do online irl, but I know a lot of women that do have to.

It might not be all women, just as not all women have had to deal with sexism in their workplaces, however a recent (2018) study found that 81 percent of women had experienced some form of harassment, 77% of women having been verbally harassed. It also found that over 54% of women felt anxiety or stress about harassment or had been forced to change their routines and routes to avoid it!

Now yes, some men face it too, but the numbers are far less. Just 34% of men reported sexual verbal harassment, and 32% reported anxiety or stress about harassment or having to change their routines and routes.

I can add to that in that when I have used my male avatars in the same games as above I have only ever had a single incident of being propositioned or harassed.

Anyone that believes that sexual harassment and threat to women is not a real thing or is just in womens heads is deluding themselves.

Thank you for sharing this interesting and informative view into how even being a female-presenting avatar can incur trouble from men. I do believe you have a unique window into experiencing what women are talking about. I too, have noticed the difference online between male and female screen names, but not to the extent you have as I've never been fully out as a woman gamer. (My attempts a decade + ago at XBox Live Halo games where I spoke taught me *real* quick never to use my voice in online play, and to keep a male handle) I like that you play female so that you've learned firsthand how that works, as I feel you really feel how surprising and frequent harassment can be.

Again, thanks for posting this.
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Old 29th July 2020, 11:26 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
Quote:
I do not believe this happens to most women on a "practically daily basis".
Translation: I've never had a discussion about this subject with any of the women/girls in my life.
...or have, but noticed that the frequency of what they're talking about appears to not actually be particularly close to "daily". The "daily" thing comes out when people are going for shock value or argumentative value or describing how often it's on their minds, whereas serious attempts at estimating frequency of things actually happening to them to try to be informative to someone who's already listening and taking it seriously run much lower. Examples get dug up from months or years before instead of just the latest few days' worth, except in a couple of cases I've known whose reported frequencies either included pretty much any time a man spoke to them at all or existed within some certain radius for more than a few seconds, or even counted their own thoughts & actions in anticipation as somehow equating to something actually happening.

I would have relatively little trouble accepting that the frequency is significantly higher for women than for men, although the only serious study I've seen on the subject actually found otherwise. And I already do accept that, regardless of what the rates actually are, its impact seems heavier on women's quality of life than men's and it should be substantially reduced (zero being ideal). But overstating it (even if it's unintentional and based on perception not deception) does not help the cause of reducing it, or even of getting more people to acknowledge it. (And it might even be counterproductive for the latter.)

Last edited by Delvo; 29th July 2020 at 11:41 PM.
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Old 29th July 2020, 11:37 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by MoeFaux View Post
Thank you for sharing this interesting and informative view into how even being a female-presenting avatar can incur trouble from men. I do believe you have a unique window into experiencing what women are talking about. I too, have noticed the difference online between male and female screen names, but not to the extent you have as I've never been fully out as a woman gamer. (My attempts a decade + ago at XBox Live Halo games where I spoke taught me *real* quick never to use my voice in online play, and to keep a male handle) I like that you play female so that you've learned firsthand how that works, as I feel you really feel how surprising and frequent harassment can be.

Again, thanks for posting this.
One of the YouTube channels I used to watch a while back was by a Girl Gamer who played games like Rainbow 6 and Counter Strike. She had a heap of compilations of other players reacting to her on voice, so yeah I can guess.

ETA2: Should have added NSFW!!

ETA: Found her channel
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Old 30th July 2020, 12:03 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
...or have, but noticed that the frequency of what they're talking about appears to not actually be particularly close to "daily". The "daily" thing comes out when people are going for shock value or argumentative value, whereas serious attempts at estimating frequency to try to be informative to someone who's already listening and taking it seriously run much lower. Examples get dug up from months or years before instead of just the latest few days' worth, except in a couple of cases I've known whose reported frequencies either included pretty much any time a man spoke to them at all or existed within some certain radius for more than a few seconds, or even counting their own thoughts & actions in anticipation as somehow counting the same as something actually happening.

I would have relatively little trouble accepting that the frequency is significantly higher for women than for men, although the only serious study I've seen on the subject actually found otherwise. And I already do accept that, regardless of what the rates actually are, its impact seems heavier on women's quality of life than men's and it should be substantially reduced (zero being ideal). But overstating it (even if it's unintentional and based on perception not deception) does not help the cause of reducing it, or even of getting more people to acknowledge it.

No. Stating that unwanted male attention happens "to most women on a practically daily basis" is not an overstatement.

A wink, an air kiss, a lip pucker, a smile with eyebrows wagging up and down, a head turn, a leering look tracing our body up and down, a whistle, a catcall, some kind of verbal sound or word(s).... etc etc, and so on and so forth.

It's a factual truth.

And how do we women know this as a fact rather than your assumption of an "overstatement"?

Because unlike our male counterparts, almost each and every one of us women have talked to other women about this subject. Fully, wholly, completely.

... numerous times throughout our entire lives (over a period of 10, 20, 30, 40+ years)
... with numerous other women/girls (friends, family, colleagues, etc) throughout that lifetime

We literally have a massive cross-section of firsthand conversations with other women (from various age ranges, body types, walks of life) to base our observations on over a period of many many many years. A gathering of empirical data that any official study on the subject to date couldn't even hold a candle to, or at least none that I'm aware of.

If you were to survey every single woman/girl you crossed paths with for the next 20 years, you would find that most of them have experienced unwanted male attention (the types of things I've listed above) on a practically daily basis.

Just because some of you find such a statement hard to believe, doesn't make it so.
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Old 30th July 2020, 02:08 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Unintended result of wearing a mask?

Apparently, getting the coronavirus is a result of wearing a mask.
louie-gohmert-tests-positive-coronavirus
Sadly since face masks have started to be worn I have seen lots of people adjust their masks and then rub their face or eyes. I've seen people people take them off to make an adjustment and at the same time scratch their face and so on. Or the worse someone coughing who took their face mask off to cough.. .The worst thing I've seen was someone who took off their homemade (I think) mask and turned it inside out so what was the outside was now next to the face.

Like we had for handwashing we should have had lots of articles, adverts from the government and so on about how to use masks safely.

I think at the moment there could be an increased risk for some people given how I've seen them being used.
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Old 30th July 2020, 02:32 AM   #152
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If you are interested learning about the experience of a young woman today there is an interesting book by Florence Given, Women Don't Owe You Pretty. Now there is a lot I don't agree with in her book, some areas where I think she takes things too far and too many slippery slopes, but even if you disagree with her about everything it does give you her perspective and a perspective that a lot of other young women have. I've emphasised the word "young" because times are always changing and young women today are brought up in a very different world to women of 50, 30 or even 10 years ago.

She piqued my interest because of an interview on radio 4:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00...%20to%20anyone. - go to 45:30 for her interview.

And she made me think and challenge some assumptions I had which I always enjoy.

One of the most interesting points to me was her starting point - which was from this quote by Erin McKean

Quote:
....

Now, this may seem strange from someone who writes about pretty dresses (mostly) every day, but: You Don’t Have to Be Pretty. You don’t owe prettiness to anyone. Not to your boyfriend/spouse/partner, not to your co-workers, especially not to random men on the street. You don’t owe it to your mother, you don’t owe it to your children, you don’t owe it to civilization in general. Prettiness is not a rent you pay for occupying a space marked “female”.

...
I think when you think about that quote and then listen to her it may make you think about a few things from a different perspective.


(And yes there are some equivalents in the "male world" but we can talk about issues females experience without having to talk about those that males may share or male only issues. Often there is a load of "whataboutism" in these conversations - I know I've been guilty of that.)
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Old 30th July 2020, 02:51 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by MoeFaux View Post
I too, have noticed the difference online between male and female screen names, but not to the extent you have as I've never been fully out as a woman gamer. (My attempts a decade + ago at XBox Live Halo games where I spoke taught me *real* quick never to use my voice in online play, and to keep a male handle)

I have a female friend who streams video games on Twitch with microphone and camera. It hasn't happened lately, but for a while, guys would periodically enter the stream and immediately start making sexually explicit comments to her in the chat, as if she would find them irresistible and throw herself at them, or something.
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Old 30th July 2020, 09:47 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
No. Stating that unwanted male attention happens "to most women on a practically daily basis" is not an overstatement.
My wife works with kids and most of the adults she works with are women. She has commented on how it is worth the reduced pay to not have to deal with men much at work. And some of her best friends at work have been men. Really.

She has designed her life such that she doesn't have to deal with strange men at all most days. She goes to work and comes home and is a bit of homebody. She picked her car partially based on it having enough range that she only has to go to the gas station once every two weeks. Her hobbies and interests don't involve going out much. If she is out we are typically together. So, for her "practically daily basis" may not ring true, but only because of the avoidance that is built into her daily life.

So, I would say it is not an overstatement at all.
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Old 30th July 2020, 09:52 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Oh, my kids mum got annoyed when she told me the puppy was in the vets and I started talking about solutions, possible causes etc.

Then I got a horrible message from her the next day that made me feel bad and she fell out with me for weeks,
is that what you mean by the highlighted?
This anecdote makes you sound like the kind of person that other people really like to open up to about their personal struggles. I bet many people seek out your counsel on personal matters all the time. And when you ask about their struggles, I see no reason why they wouldn't be open and frank with you about what happens to them and how it makes them feel. You probably really like talking to other people about their feelings, right? Mostly in a validating and a supportive way, but occasionally offering them tips on how to view the world from another perspective and maybe even change the way they feel about the things happening to them. If they are smart enough to listen, that is. Some people just don't want help, though. They just want to cry all day about how hurt they feel and never want to do anything about it. Screw them. We don't need them around.
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Old 30th July 2020, 11:28 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
How come nobody's put face masks on their avatars yet?
Smartcooky has.
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Old 30th July 2020, 11:48 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
I do not believe this happens to most women on a "practically daily basis".
It does.

I'm not saying that it's a battleground or that it scares me. It usually doesn't, since I have to be in public to be available for such interactions, and I live in a busy city. This stuff has happened to me most often in crowded areas. But it annoys, offends, intimidates, and sometimes upsets me. I'm just giving my general testimony, not commenting on any specific events mentioned in the thread. It did used to scare me more, but that was because of an actual violent incident I'd experienced in the past. I got over the fear as I moved away from that event, realizing it was an outlier.

This isn't some low-key claim of being particularly hot, either. I'm not hideous, but my body type is kind of bizarre, and I don't have any curves whatsoever. (Really. I literally wear training bras.) My clothes are cheap, and I don't usually wear makeup because I'm not good at putting it on. I tend to look worse when I try to wear a full face. What I'm saying is, I'm not the sort of woman who guys would notice and just not be able to help wooping at.

I don't think hotness has that much to do with it, though super attractive women probably get it a little worse. I think some men just like to bug females on the street when there won't be any consequence for it. Not all men, not even most men - but in a crowd, you never know which men are which, so yeah. I can sometimes feel a little wary when approached, until I've gauged the person's intentions. And I almost never took the bus to work without at least one creepy interaction. (Yes, telling a random woman she has nice legs is creepy. Maybe it's technically a compliment, but it doesn't feel like one. And it has nothing to do with how attractive the guy saying it is either, because he is a stranger either way, and that's the creepy part. For many women, anyway. I'm sure a few enjoy it. Their perspective is valid too.)

I don't know if masks make a difference, because I've been extremely reclusive during this time.

I don't want to jump into a fight, and I probably won't even be back to this thread. I started typing this response earlier this morning, before I made a vow to restrict myself to Forum Community going forward. I decided I might as well finish what I'd been typing first. I'm not angry at anybody. I'm just sharing my perspective along with others.
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Old 30th July 2020, 11:56 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
M'kay.
I think men sometimes get mad when we have these discussions because they feel attacked. I think we women sometimes aren't careful to say that we have a problem with this behavior, not with men in general.

It really does happen a lot, I promise you, but it's not because men are bad. It's just because some guys are jerks (like some women are jerks), and when you're out and about, you're running into all sorts of people. So some jerks will appear.

So if a woman has a long commute on public transportation in a busy city (like I did up until the pandemic), they can easily run into three or four of these louts before their workday has even started. It's just a matter of numbers. And that's what I have a problem with. Not men. It's not men-as-monolith's fault that some guys are vulgar or rude, just like it's not women-as-monolith's fault that some women are snakes.


EDIT: If that's not why you're angry, then I'm afraid i don't get it. Why would so many women just continuously lie about these things happening? What would be the point?
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Old 30th July 2020, 12:07 PM   #159
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Unintended result of wearing a mask

Nobody notices for almost five months.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
How come nobody's put face masks on their avatars yet?
I did mine on March 9.
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Old 30th July 2020, 12:11 PM   #160
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I admit that I tend to make a second or two of eye contact with people as they approach from the opposite direction on the sidewalk or in the store. Just enough to acknowledge that I know that they exist. Mainly, I'm sick of seeing the tops of people's heads as they stare down at their phones.
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