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Tags atheism , prayer , psychology , religion

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Old 26th July 2020, 12:43 PM   #1
Minoosh
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What if your life (seems) to go better with prayer?

I have used prayer before and never was seeking "comfort" or asking for a certain outcome. Rather for something like a boost in some kind of strength, insight or institution. For my purposes, it doesn't really matter if God exists. I just know that if I use it this way, it seems to alter my internal state and I end up coping with situations better than I expected to.

There's a lady here (on a currently locked-down church-run campus for the elderly) who mentions God fairly frequently and I enjoy talking to her. She practiced medicine for 50 years, specializing in ophthalmological surgery. She's not some churchy, stereotypical religious nut. She has also done the guidance-seeking prayer; she applied to medical school on someone else's urging, and when accepted, "told God" she really didn't want to go, but God apparently told her she was supposed to be a doctor. She also takes prayer a step further, believing in the efficacy of intercessory prayer (praying for someone else). She thinks it's been proven, in a double-blind sort of way, which I don't think is true, but I have no desire to argue with her about it.

Maybe once or twice I've told people I would pray for them or a loved one, if I think it might help them to hear it (or if they ask), and then I will make a point of praying for that person, but not in an outcome-based way; more like "Please give so-and-so support in this situation." Well, I don't think God bases medical outcomes or the fate of someone's soul on how hard, or how many, other people pray for them. But the part about looking for guidance, or expressing gratitude? I do that, and when I do it regularly, my life seems to go better. Someone on this forum, I forget who, identifies as atheist but still sometimes puts something out to the universe (paraphrase), deliberately not conceptualizing a God, and she had a reasonable-sounding argument about why it seems to help.

I have no problem, when I'm running on empty, or running out of ideas, or desperate to be of some use in a situation, to ask God, the universe or whatever for strength, courage, or wisdom, and it really has seemed to help at times. On the hand, some people pray and think God is telling then to fly jetliners into tall buildings, so I'm a long way from saying everyone should pray and act on whatever ideas they think they're getting from God. But I think it might have some utility, for some people. Any thoughts?
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Old 26th July 2020, 03:34 PM   #2
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If it helps you feel better, go for it. But it's not my thing.
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Old 26th July 2020, 04:27 PM   #3
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Nothing is going out to the universe. It's all staying in your mind, and frankly, giving yourself a pep talk is often a good idea.
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Old 26th July 2020, 05:35 PM   #4
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It's a great ritual. The "Universe," or just the tree in the back yard makes an excellent therapist. I can express things I'd have difficulty speaking to another Human Being or any individual self with agendas.

Also, when journaling, it helps to have a target reader in mind.
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Old 26th July 2020, 06:14 PM   #5
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If it makes you feel better its good. Religious stuff as a personal therapy is common.
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Old 26th July 2020, 06:51 PM   #6
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I happen to agree with others here that prayer does not go out to any listener, but if you take the time to organize your thoughts, your worries, your desires, and so forth enough to put them into an intelligible prayer, you're probably giving them some careful thought, and establishing what's really important. So sure. And if it makes you feel less burdened and alone, all the better.

It reminds me a little of a South American novelty I got one of my kids long ago, a little basket of "worry dolls." The idea is that before you go to bed, you assign each of the dolls (I think there were 6 or 8) one of the things you worry most about, and let them worry about them for the night. Of course what you're really doing is articulating things, rather than settling for a vague sense of dread.

I've known a couple of people who were basically atheists or at least non-theists, who had no problem with the idea, for example, of the non-petitionary prayer, as a way of putting their appreciation of the world into words. When one of those people would step out the kitchen door on a spring morning and say "Thank you, Lord" it wasn't a sudden conversion to theology.
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Old 26th July 2020, 07:01 PM   #7
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Just because (g)you conceptualize sitting down and reflecting on / thinking about a problem within the context of talking to /sharing your thoughts with some supreme being and that netted you some tangible, provable, objective "net benefit" of some kind, all that would prove is just sitting down and reflecting on / thinking about problems makes them better. You'd have to eliminate that variable, have 50 people pray and 50 people meditate and 50 people just sit there and think about the problem and 50 people ignore the problem and crunch the numbers.
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Old 26th July 2020, 10:37 PM   #8
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I don't think there's anything amiss with what one might call a "prayerful attitude," if that means you stop and think about what you are doing, what you need, and how it all relates to what you hold important. You don't have to believe in some specific being to do so, but prayer is a pretty simple and efficient package.

But I'm also willing to bet that the benefit is in the making, not the transmission, and that the only benefit of praying for someone else comes in the form of a nice feeling they get when you tell them.
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Old 26th July 2020, 10:49 PM   #9
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I agree with everyone else.
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Old 26th July 2020, 11:34 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
It's a great ritual. The "Universe," or just the tree in the back yard makes an excellent therapist. I can express things I'd have difficulty speaking to another Human Being or any individual self with agendas.

Also, when journaling, it helps to have a target reader in mind.
You're the person I was thinking of.

Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
If it makes you feel better its good. Religious stuff as a personal therapy is common.
I guess it makes me feel better, but it has more to do with coping. It seems to help me do better. But then some people pray and decide God wants them to commit mass murder, so I'm a long way from saying it's always a positive.

Originally Posted by bruto View Post
It reminds me a little of a South American novelty I got one of my kids long ago, a little basket of "worry dolls." The idea is that before you go to bed, you assign each of the dolls (I think there were 6 or 8) one of the things you worry most about, and let them worry about them for the night. Of course what you're really doing is articulating things, rather than settling for a vague sense of dread.
That's exactly what's happening. What am I "really doing"? Your explanation works fine, but I'm OK with calling this "prayer."

I had typed out an anecdote about what brought me to this state, but it started to sound like someone else's long, incomprehensible dream. Basically I was terrified that someone would drink himself to death. I started praying because it seemed like the only option.

Lots of weird coincidences and in the end he did die (no one knows why). By then I was close to acceptance. Several people had tried to save his life.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Just because (g)you conceptualize sitting down and reflecting on / thinking about a problem within the context of talking to /sharing your thoughts with some supreme being and that netted you some tangible, provable, objective "net benefit" of some kind, all that would prove is just sitting down and reflecting on / thinking about problems makes them better. You'd have to eliminate that variable, have 50 people pray and 50 people meditate and 50 people just sit there and think about the problem and 50 people ignore the problem and crunch the numbers.
I know. I'm not trying to convince anyone. I don't identify as atheist, but there's no religion I buy into either.

What happens seems pretty far removed from conceptualizing, analyzing, articulating etc. Almost the opposite. Setting thought aside and chanting some brief supplication. Alternatively, doing a more formal meditation that is also based on a prayer.
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Old 26th July 2020, 11:36 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
But I think it might have some utility, for some people. Any thoughts?
Yep, you should harden the **** up and pray to a pet rock. Or even better, go for a walk and smell the flowers. Send your best wishes, not prayers.

People often say to me that a small amount of religion is harmless.

I disagree, seeing the fundamentalists building their empires on a bedrock of acceptance that religion isn't actively evil.

It is.

We'd be far better to encourage rational thinking all the time and not give it a swerve when we have a problem.
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Old 27th July 2020, 12:08 AM   #12
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The only problem with having an imaginary friend to talk to as therapy, is that therapy doesn't seem to actually DO anything even with a human therapist. The whole idea that that actually solves anything, is based on Sigmund Fraud... err... Freud's making up a bunch of BS, including purely imaginary cases that got solved that way, and cases where he claimed that everything was solved even if we now know that the patient actually ended up in a loony bin anyway.

Pretty much if you were bored and lonely, talking to someone about your problems is temporarily solving that problem: feeling bored and lonely. But no other problem.

That said, if talking to an imaginary friend does the trick for you, go for it.
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Old 27th July 2020, 12:48 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
The only problem with having an imaginary friend to talk to as therapy, is that therapy doesn't seem to actually DO anything even with a human therapist. The whole idea that that actually solves anything, is based on Sigmund Fraud... err... Freud's making up a bunch of BS, including purely imaginary cases that got solved that way, and cases where he claimed that everything was solved even if we now know that the patient actually ended up in a loony bin anyway.
You don't think therapy helps anyone?
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Old 27th July 2020, 02:53 AM   #14
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Well, it helps the therapist make a living. And as I was saying, if you're just feeling bored and lonely, talking to someone might make you feel less bored and lonely for the rest of the day. But that's about it.
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Old 27th July 2020, 09:04 AM   #15
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I think it was Jung that advocated throwing the I Ching, not prophetically, but as a tool to bring thoughts to the surface. Whatever works.
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Old 27th July 2020, 01:05 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I think it was Jung that advocated throwing the I Ching, not prophetically, but as a tool to bring thoughts to the surface. Whatever works.
This thread is sincere, but I also was curious if I could talk about it without notes of ridicule arising. It didnít take long. Thatís not personal ridicule (I donít think) but the concept certainly arose. I started getting advice about what to do instead, but I do those things also. Exercise, nature walks, talk to friends, hire a useless therapist. (Useless according to another poster, and if I think therapy ever helped me, I must be deluded, but thatís a given anyway - and all therapy is psychoanalysis, apparently).

It sounds like Jung is talking about accessing intuition, and I think intuition is a real thing, sometimes inaccessible if the conscious mind is too noisy (for lack of a better word). There may be people who believe that everything they do is the result of their conscious, rational minds, but for me it doesnít always work that way.

Iím sure plenty of people think Jung is either a fraud or a fool, or perhaps both, but Iím open to the kind of thing youíre talking about - especially if one has already taken a walk, had a talk with a friend etc. and still doesnít know what to do. Sometimes thereís nothing you *can* do, but that doesnít mean Iím against thinking rationally or taking a walk in the woods etc. I might end up praying on Election Day, but that doesnít mean Iím not going to vote.
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Old 27th July 2020, 10:21 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I think it was Jung that advocated throwing the I Ching, not prophetically, but as a tool to bring thoughts to the surface. Whatever works.
That's what I use Tarot for.
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Old 28th July 2020, 01:12 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
This thread is sincere, but I also was curious if I could talk about it without notes of ridicule arising. It didnít take long. Thatís not personal ridicule (I donít think) but the concept certainly arose. I started getting advice about what to do instead, but I do those things also. Exercise, nature walks, talk to friends, hire a useless therapist. (Useless according to another poster, and if I think therapy ever helped me, I must be deluded, but thatís a given anyway - and all therapy is psychoanalysis, apparently).
Well, my point is basically this: if you already have friends you can talk to, exactly what else does a therapist bring to the table, other than charge you for letting you talk to him? Psychoanalysis doesn't actually work, and any other problem he's probably not any more qualified to help you with than your friends or for that matter than talking to wall.
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Old 28th July 2020, 08:17 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
This thread is sincere, but I also was curious if I could talk about it without notes of ridicule arising. It didnít take long. Thatís not personal ridicule (I donít think) but the concept certainly arose. I started getting advice about what to do instead, but I do those things also. Exercise, nature walks, talk to friends, hire a useless therapist. (Useless according to another poster, and if I think therapy ever helped me, I must be deluded, but thatís a given anyway - and all therapy is psychoanalysis, apparently).

It sounds like Jung is talking about accessing intuition, and I think intuition is a real thing, sometimes inaccessible if the conscious mind is too noisy (for lack of a better word). There may be people who believe that everything they do is the result of their conscious, rational minds, but for me it doesnít always work that way.

Iím sure plenty of people think Jung is either a fraud or a fool, or perhaps both, but Iím open to the kind of thing youíre talking about - especially if one has already taken a walk, had a talk with a friend etc. and still doesnít know what to do. Sometimes thereís nothing you *can* do, but that doesnít mean Iím against thinking rationally or taking a walk in the woods etc. I might end up praying on Election Day, but that doesnít mean Iím not going to vote.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
That's what I use Tarot for.
I think that prayer, Tarot, etc are great ways of putting your quiet thoughts into words, which can give you a fresh perspective. I like to surf (the water kind more than the interwebs kind), and often get hit with a sense of connectedness, a kind of thankful state of grace. It's a beautiful feeling, that I don't mind personifying (deifying?) to being touched by God. You don't have to be a believer (I'm not) to relish that good vibe, or dismiss it as irrationality to keep the world in neat boxes. Things that bring you peace are good things. If a little prayer settles you, it's a win. If some guy comes up talking about how you should give him 10% of your money for that good feeling, he's probably not on the same wavelength. **** him. For all the strength and power of critical thinking and rationality, surrendering to awe once in a while is no harm, no foul. Pray, or read Tarot, throw the I Ching. We all get our little shots of transcendence FTW.
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Old 28th July 2020, 08:28 AM   #20
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I think for a very large chunk of human history, religion was very central to a lot of people's lives and their framing of the world. So EVERYTHINg got rolled up and framed in religious terms. Kings ruled by divine right. Churches (or temples) tended to be some of the few places which had excess resources (tithed from the rest of society) so they'd be centers of art, and scholarship. People's moral intuitions became religious beliefs to the extent that even today many religious folks can't imagine morality existing outside their religion.

I believe that what we call "prayer" is in many cases, thoughtful reflection and meditation on your needs, wants, moral quandries, failures, fears etc. in an externalized way. Because for so much of our history, religion made everything its own, then it becomes "communicating with god" or in the case of eastern religious framing, some other spiritual mold.

There's lots of good stuff in religious practice. I'm convinced that the large majority of it would work more or less as well or better if extricated from the religious trappings.
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Old 28th July 2020, 10:55 AM   #21
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"Prayer is just a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms" - Terry Pratchett

But that doesn't mean some people don't find it helpful.
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Old 28th July 2020, 04:47 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, my point is basically this: if you already have friends you can talk to, exactly what else does a therapist bring to the table, other than charge you for letting you talk to him? Psychoanalysis doesn't actually work, and any other problem he's probably not any more qualified to help you with than your friends or for that matter than talking to wall.
Perhaps. I happen to think I did get benefit from one particular counselor, who was a trained listener, not someone who would barge in with advice, but who would probe a litter deeper into why something in particular bothered me. She was also a good deal - my group cost $15 a week. The group dynamics were also interesting to observe. She wasn't a Freudian. She dealt with a lot of substance abuse and PTSD. She knew when to probe, and also when to leave things alone, depending on the client's needs. I wish I had someone like that now, but I'm not very good at taking care of myself. I do know that when I see a psychiatrist or nurse practitioner, I'm eager to share with them some recent progress (if any). I think you are painting with a very wide brush. Was there any experience that contributed to your belief? Because I'm quite willing to accept that there are people out there who should sure as **** not be in the business of probing people's psyches and/or giving people bad advice.
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Old 28th July 2020, 04:59 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
"Prayer is just a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms" - Terry Pratchett

But that doesn't mean some people don't find it helpful.
Oh, man, I wish I had a thunderstorm to plead with. I live in the desert and we are overdue for our "monsoon" rains, which last year fizzled out almost entirely. So far summer has been a disappointment.

I haven't prayed about it. I don't think it works that way. But people in the desert praying for rain might be the oldest prayer in the world. Weather modelers have become very good and if they say it's going to be dry and 112 out I tend to believe them, despite the cumulonimbus clouds luring on the horizon.
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Old 28th July 2020, 05:05 PM   #24
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If people are praying over this pandemic, I'd really rather they actually do something. Volunteering, donating, checking up on friends and relatives. Stuff.
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Old 28th July 2020, 05:07 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
If people are praying over this pandemic, I'd really rather they actually do something. Volunteering, donating, checking up on friends and relatives. Stuff.
What makes you think many of them aren't doing both?
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Old 28th July 2020, 05:42 PM   #26
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If you pray with a mask on, God can't read your lips.

Just sayin'.
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Old 28th July 2020, 06:05 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
What makes you think many of them aren't doing both?
I am definitely against using prayer as a substitute for effective action. I don't think God has a plan and if a kid gets cancer I don't want people praying over her as a substitute for chemo, radiation, etc. People who rely on prayer vs. medical attention are seriously misguided.

It's a potential tool for living with horrible situations. It's not for everyone and I wouldn't suggest it to people who are fighting their way out of religious indoctrination.

I only did it because I was out of other options.
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Old 28th July 2020, 06:15 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
What makes you think many of them aren't doing both?
From my experience, some do, some just give lip service. That's what makes me think that.
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Old 28th July 2020, 06:17 PM   #29
RolandRat
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I only did it because I was out of other options.
Why did you consider prayer to be your last option?
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Old 28th July 2020, 06:23 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
From my experience, some do, some just give lip service. That's what makes me think that.
"Some"? Certainly. But I don't think it's fair to generalise from that. Many - most? - Christians do charity and pray.
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Old 28th July 2020, 06:27 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
"Some"? Certainly. But I don't think it's fair to generalise from that. Many - most? - Christians do charity and pray.
This is my experience with friends and family; you asked what made me think that, and I told you. I also was a christian, a catholic in fact, considering the seminary at one time. I've seen christian charity, and what some claimed to be christian charity. So yeah, "some" in my experience.
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Old 28th July 2020, 07:37 PM   #32
Minoosh
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Why did you consider prayer to be your last option?
Because it's the only one left.
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Old 29th July 2020, 12:03 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
"Some"? Certainly. But I don't think it's fair to generalise from that. Many - most? - Christians do charity and pray.
Well, *SOME* Christians (or for that matter Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc). From my experience, though, "I'll pray for you" / "I prayed for you" is most often a substitute for actually doing something. In the best case, it might be only partially, and they'll also do some token thing too, but too often it's just a way to feel like they totally did their part, when they didn't.
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Old 29th July 2020, 12:09 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Perhaps. I happen to think I did get benefit from one particular counselor, who was a trained listener, not someone who would barge in with advice, but who would probe a litter deeper into why something in particular bothered me. She was also a good deal - my group cost $15 a week. The group dynamics were also interesting to observe. She wasn't a Freudian. She dealt with a lot of substance abuse and PTSD. She knew when to probe, and also when to leave things alone, depending on the client's needs. I wish I had someone like that now, but I'm not very good at taking care of myself. I do know that when I see a psychiatrist or nurse practitioner, I'm eager to share with them some recent progress (if any). I think you are painting with a very wide brush. Was there any experience that contributed to your belief? Because I'm quite willing to accept that there are people out there who should sure as **** not be in the business of probing people's psyches and/or giving people bad advice.
No, not really. It's just the fact that medically, speaking as in studies about results, it doesn't really do anything long term, if you actually had a problem to solve other than needing someone to talk to (and your friends didn't fit the bill for some reason.)

Group things are a different thing, but mostly because you're getting yourself into some group pressure to do something. (Like, for example to quit substance abuse.)
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Old 29th July 2020, 01:28 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
You don't think therapy helps anyone?
A therapist once told me that he didn't believe in black/white all/none thinking anymore. It was very helpful to me.
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Old 29th July 2020, 04:42 AM   #36
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Well, one of the things *I* learned early, and I didn't even need a therapist for that is this: if one person tells you that you're drunk, and you know you're not, then he's probably wrong. If two tell you you're drunk, better go get some sleep, just in case they're right.

Why I'm saying that is because of this: if _all_ your friends 'barge in with advice' when you tell them about your problem, then maybe they do have a point, and you COULD do something to improve your situation. Maybe you really are in some kind of situation/rut/whatever that is bad for you, and that you could get out of.

And maybe you need antidepressants for that, by the sound of it. Because ultimately that's the common denominator for depression: not having the motivation to do, including getting out of situations that are bad for you, based on some expectation that things can't get better, can't get solved, or there's no actual way out, or stuff to that effect. And that's what antidepressants DO. They're not some happy pills, they're there to up your motivation and your baseline expectations of success a notch, so you can go do whatever needs to be done to sort your life out.

Sure, some stranger who is paid to sit there and nod while you rationalize why you shouldn't do what your friends tell you to, feels good in the short run. But in the long run it may well prevent you from going and getting some medication that would allow you to ACTUALLY solve the root problem.
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Old 29th July 2020, 08:44 AM   #37
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Defecating on therapy and prayer/meditation, wow. Hot take.

Therapy is often useful when people want to talk about things they can't talk about with friends. Who wants to talk to friends about their weird, violent, bizarre intrusive thoughts? Maybe some people, but I sure wouldn't. Therapists don't shock as easily as regular people, too. They've heard most of it before. They know intrusive thoughts can be normal, people just don't tend to talk about them. Most therapists won't be scandalized if you tell them you're struggling with attraction to someone who isn't your partner. They won't act like you're sick if you have a fetish. This stuff seems like "duh" material to me.

Maybe some people are fortunate enough to have friends and family who are just perfectly open-minded, and it's never weird to talk to them, but it can't be that common.

Some of you guys are absolute dicks when religion is brought up in any form, no matter how vague. It's so irritating. It's one of the worst things about this place. It's a pretty long jump from "I talk to the universe to feel better" to "God told me we have to ban gay marriage," but skeptics don't seem to recognize that nuance.

I'm sorry this post is a little mean, but this thread pissed me off. I can't stand this level of rigidity in thinking, and furthermore, suggesting that no one ever anywhere can truly benefit from therapy, because they could just talk to their friends, is delusional.

I'm going to go talk to the universe myself, now, because it's soothing and helpful to me, and I don't need any other reason. La-dee-da to all of you who are too stable and rational to even consider such tactics. Good for you.
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Old 29th July 2020, 01:08 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, *SOME* Christians (or for that matter Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc). From my experience, though, "I'll pray for you" / "I prayed for you" is most often a substitute for actually doing something. In the best case, it might be only partially, and they'll also do some token thing too, but too often it's just a way to feel like they totally did their part, when they didn't.
I hope I don't use it that way; in fact I'm very reluctant to say that to anyone because I'm not a big fan of intercessory prayer. I would also be looking at secular ways to be useful (going to the store, answering phones, writing an obituary). I've written tons of them knowing they would get into print even if the deceased didn't match our official standards for news stories.
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Old 29th July 2020, 11:50 PM   #39
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I think you're brave to bring this up here Minoosh. From what you are describing I say go for it. I see nothing wrong with praying if it helps you or anyone else. Like you said, you aren't doing it in lieu of other actions.
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Old 30th July 2020, 12:34 AM   #40
HansMustermann
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Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
Defecating on therapy and prayer/meditation, wow. Hot take.
Well, gather round folks, gather round. Let me tell you a parable. Well, it worked for the Son Of Man, and I'm a son of a man, so...

So I have this relative who, far as I know, still is in pretty much the most horrible abusive marriage ever. Well, according to her, anyway. I haven't talked much to the guy. I'm talking at the level of having been beaten UNCONSCIOUS a few times. Plus raped on a regular basis, and you know, all the good stuff.

Well, guess what? She too didn't want advice, didn't want help, she just wanted an ENABLER to sit and listen and nod and not ask any uncomfortable questions, while she rationalizes for herself why she totally couldn't possibly get out of that situation.

The things people tell you when you you're just shutting up and letting them unload...

And if it were just her, meh, maybe she likes a bit of bdsm, I could theoretically rationalize to myself, but it was about her kids too. I'm talking stuff like being belted until looking like a frikken zebra at a pre-school age. In fact, pretty much the guy would beat the kids up to control her.

Yeah, I should have just called child protection services.

But yeah, that's the PROBLEM with just wanting someone to listen to you rationalize it to yourself, at your own pace, until you figure it out on your own. You might actually never do. You might actually not be even trying to figure it out, but just to keep rationalizing while you're stuck in that bad rut.

And that's the other problem when you think that things are hopeless beyond all possibility of solving them. Guess what? Unless you have cancer, or you're handcuffed to a pipe in the basement and under armed guard, they probably aren't. It's just the chemical balance in your brain that's off and produces only expecting negative outcomes for everything. You just need antidepressants.

ESPECIALLY if you're ever at the point where it seems like the only recourse is talking to an imaginary friend in the sky, you don't need encouragement to do that, you need antidepressants.

Which incidentally is also something she rationalized she didn't need. You know the drill: she's not crazy, she doesn't need to be medicated, etc.


So yeah, I COULD be the "nice" kind of guy who tells people that yeah, it's ok to just want an ENABLER (real or imaginary) to just listen while they rationalize why they can't solve their problems, and why their only left recourse is talking to God. Or I can be an ass hole and tell them to get actual help and solve their problems. Guess which I'll choose every time nowadays...


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