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Tags 2020 elections , George Conway , PACs , republican party , Rick Wilson , steve schmidt , The Lincoln Project

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Old 31st July 2020, 06:15 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
That's the problem. You want to do what is already obviously impossible. the only person who can turn away Trump voters is Trump himself. And the Lincoln Project are welcome to try. Having them run negative ads lets Biden's campaign focus solely on telling his own story. A small benefit right there.
Conservatives are triggered by fear, and in fact feeling fear tends to make people more conservative in their political outlook. Liberals are inspired by confidence and feeling confident tends to make people more liberal in their political outlook.

It may be possible to turn many more conservatives to the Democrats by painting Republicans as trying to change the US into something scary and different, but this would be at the expense of rallying their own base so itís a delicate balancing act at best.
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Old 31st July 2020, 06:19 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
But that's the sort of thing that you, Joe, complain about all the time: that people's search for perfect solutions or ideological purity is preventing them from winning in, for example, elections. That Democrats keep losing because they're trying to be too fair. Here some are suggesting that TLP might help defeat Trump but the idea is suddenly unpalatable because they are otherwise your opponents?
Sorta. My issue with the Dems has always been more of how quick they are to do a big, blustering "Oh... oh well we're above that game!" routine only after they are already losing. It's always the same with them they start off playing the same game, but shift into "Oh we don't want to dirty our hands mode Neither you, I, nor any Tom, Dick, or Harry with enough grey cells to rub together to form a synapse actually think the Democrats really are "just too good and noble" to play dirty pool.

The fact that my priorities tend more toward practical results doesn't mean I'm never allowed to put ideals on the table. Especially since my point is creating a constant air of distrust of politics as a place full of nothing but people playing other people does have actual negative effects.
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Old 31st July 2020, 06:26 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Sorta. My issue with the Dems has always been more of how quick they are to do a big, blustering "Oh... oh well we're above that game!" routine only after they are already losing. It's always the same with them they start off playing the same game, but shift into "Oh we don't want to dirty our hands mode Neither you, I, nor any Tom, Dick, or Harry with enough grey cells to rub together to form a synapse actually think the Democrats really are "just too good and noble" to play dirty pool.

The fact that my priorities tend more toward practical results doesn't mean I'm never allowed to put ideals on the table. Especially since my point is creating a constant air of distrust of politics as a place full of nothing but people playing other people does have actual negative effects.
Uh-huh, but don't you agree that it's easier to beat your enemy if their enemies are helping you? Or would you rather lose?
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Old 31st July 2020, 06:28 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Uh-huh, but don't you agree that it's easier to beat your enemy if their enemies are helping you? Or would you rather lose?
Yes. I never said anything about this one particular bit of "Getting in bed with the enemy"

I said something about one particular phrase.

And I don't think people get that my biggest issue with ideological pureness has always been that ideologies that people are purest about are often arbitrary, and just thinly veiled tribalism as often as not.
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Old 31st July 2020, 06:45 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Sorta. My issue with the Dems has always been more of how quick they are to do a big, blustering "Oh... oh well we're above that game!" routine only after they are already losing. It's always the same with them they start off playing the same game, but shift into "Oh we don't want to dirty our hands mode Neither you, I, nor any Tom, Dick, or Harry with enough grey cells to rub together to form a synapse actually think the Democrats really are "just too good and noble" to play dirty pool.
While there was and still is rat ******* within the Democratic party, it is nothing like what we've seen by Republicans the last few decades. The Democrats don't give up because they are losing. The Democrats lose because they half-ass it because they think just taking some corporate donor money means they are less tainted.

They compromise themselves but can't even do it right. And they save their worst dirty tricks for their own factions in primaries.

The Democrats, overall, do believe in the effectiveness of government and trying to maintain the system and processes. That is what the Republicans weaponize. The GOP works in grey areas or flat out breaks the rules and screams bloody murder at anything the Democrats do. To use a sports analogy, they work the refs.
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Old 31st July 2020, 08:49 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Honestly, the thing that makes me go "hmm" the most is George Conway. My prevailing theory is that he and his wife are both saying and doing things that they don't believe in order to enrich themselves. I don't buy the whole "she genuinely loves Trump and he genuinely hates" him schtick.

I think James Carville and Mary Matalin were more honest in that respect.
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Old 31st July 2020, 08:57 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Honestly, the thing that makes me go "hmm" the most is George Conway. My prevailing theory is that he and his wife are both saying and doing things that they don't believe in order to enrich themselves. I don't buy the whole "she genuinely loves Trump and he genuinely hates" him schtick.

For a start, any guesses on how Kellyanne got her job with Trump? Trump offered George a job after being impressed with a job he'd done for him while they lived in Trump Tower, and George suggested his wife instead. And they're both publishing articles about how he is against the current government and its president, and how she supports them. No, I don't mean currently, I mean in 2005, when Bush was president.

Definitely seems like a grift to me, which makes me distrustful of anything that either of them is involved with.
It's a hedged bet. One spouse in MAGA world, one in Never Trump conservative land. No matter where the future of the conservative wing lies, their family has a future.
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Old 1st August 2020, 12:42 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It's a hedged bet. One spouse in MAGA world, one in Never Trump conservative land. No matter where the future of the conservative wing lies, their family has a future.
I think it's partly that, but they also get mileage out of the "ooh, he's trolling his wife now!" aspect. IIRC, after his first tweet criticising his wife, George's twitter followers went up 50-fold.

Their daughter is making a name for herself by trolling Kellyanne, too.
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Old 1st August 2020, 02:37 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
1) For starters, I'm not a fan of the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" line of thinking. We've seen that blow up before. Ya, Trump is obviously the bigger threat right now, but that brings me to my next point.
While this is true, I think you're looking at it from the wrong end, this isn't Democrats supporting Republicans to achieve an end, this is Republicans supporting the Democratic candidate, they are the ones giving ground for the common good in this case. It seems unlikely to hurt the Dems since in these alliances it's the side that compromises that gets screwed if the other side doesn't reciprocate.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 07:31 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
I've mentioned my lukewarm feelings towards the Lincoln Project before, but I wanted to get some more insight.

Who they are: The Lincoln Project is a PAC founded by a group of current and former Republican party members who have declared themselves anti-trump. They started out by dedicating themselves to his defeat in the 2020 election and have expanded that to include his supporters in the Senate and House of Representatives.

Their founders include Republican operatives like Steve Schmidt, George Conway, and Rick Wilson. The group consists of Republican strategists, media spokespeople, and various people who have either worked on campaigns or within the party itself.

What are they doing: They are collecting lots and lots of money to run ads attacking Trump on various topics. Whether it's on his disastrous economic policies, his seemingly intentional attempts to inflame racial tensions, or his awful handling of the coronavirus, they have ads stripping him down. They are also attacking Republican Senators up for re-election and backing their Democratic opponents.

Who likes them: Establishement Republicans. The people who couldn't muster enough support in their own party to beat him in the 2016 primaries.

Political commentators i nthe media. the same people who had no idea how to handle Trump in 2016 and basically handed him a billion dollars in free advertising in 2016.

Centrist and establishment Democrats. The folks who blew a seemingly slam dunk general election against Trump in 2016.

Anyone seeing a pattern?

Who hates them: You know who. It seems that, if nothing else, their commercials are great for getting under his skin. They can needle him in ways an actual political opponent can't.

My problems with them:

1) For starters, I'm not a fan of the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" line of thinking. We've seen that blow up before. Ya, Trump is obviously the bigger threat right now, but that brings me to my next point.

2) They are a big part of how we got into this mess. They laid the ground work for the rise of Trump by waging wars on the institutions that were supposed to protect us from his brand of psuedo populism. Public education, higher learning, unions, government itself. Their strategies to turn the American populace against our own self interests mad eus distrustful of the very foundations of our society. Their unabashed love for Ronald "Southern Strategy" Reagan kind of drives this home. A handful of these guys were in W's ear when the invasion of Iraq started. And they don't seem to have an ounce of remorse over any of it. In fact,

3) They are trying to pull the Democrats further to the right and shape them into a new Republican party. They don't seem to have any actual remorse for the damage they have caused and instead are trying to drown out progressive voices. In essence, Republicans are trying to shut Democrats out of the Democratic party. they are pretty open about how they still maintain "Conservatice principles", whatever that means anymore, and are still pretty derisive when it comes to actual Democratic platforms and ideas. This wouldn't bother me so much if it weren't for the fact they are trying to leverage their assumed influence on voters to change the Democratic party. Which goes to my next point.

4) Just how effective are they? I mean, the commercials are great. I can't front. "Mourning in America" hits home emotionally. But, the Pod Save America guys have been doing a series on political ads and they have mentioned that just because an ad is memorable or emotional, doesn't mean it is effective. It should fit in with an over al lstrategy. My wife is a marketing director and has said similar things. She points to how much companies spend on SuperBowl ads. They used to be huge productions that took multiple spots. Now, not so much. It seems big production ads are like a mediocre laugh track sitcom. They might trigger a response in the moment, but you totally forget it five minutes later. I've tried to look for any sort of polling about their ads, but haven't found anything.

Also, it seems most of their ad plays are online. If they are supposed to be getting white, older, middle class voters in swing states, is that really where you run the ads? I know they have run them on TV, but it seems they aren't doing it very frequently. We watch then news a lot these days (probably too much) and I'm seeing those Trump ads where America has collapsed into anarchy way more than any Lincoln Project ad. Granted, I am in a safe blue state.

The finance stuff I won't say much about since I don't know anything about starting a PAC, so their burn could be very similar to a tech startup's.

I'm not suspicious of them because they aren't ideologically pure or anything. It wouldn't bother me if they stuck to the "true conservatives against Trump" shtick. My issues are their influence-peddling and how they seem to refuse to acknowledge that Trump is their monster. They are being given way more screen time and money than I think they actually deliver on. They aren't just Republican in ideals or ideology. they are Republican in sleezy tactics.
So you are in the angry Leftist minority trying to bring about a Bolshevik America? Not happening.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 08:41 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
So you are in the angry Leftist minority trying to bring about a Bolshevik America? Not happening.
What the hell does this even mean? You think Biden is a Bolshevik? Or any mainstream Democrat? Warren? Booker? Harris? Even Sanders? Affordable college and health care, environmental protections, banking and corporate regulation etc. are hardly leftist fantasies. Nixon created the EPA and supported a universal health insurance plan. State colleges used to be cheap. Even Reagan, who approved the AT&T breakup and promoted immigration reform, would be a bleeding heart liberal by Trumpist standards. What do you think government is for, if not to serve and protect all citizens?
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Old 2nd August 2020, 10:07 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
What the hell does this even mean? You think Biden is a Bolshevik? Or any mainstream Democrat? Warren? Booker? Harris? Even Sanders? Affordable college and health care, environmental protections, banking and corporate regulation etc. are hardly leftist fantasies. Nixon created the EPA and supported a universal health insurance plan. State colleges used to be cheap. Even Reagan, who approved the AT&T breakup and promoted immigration reform, would be a bleeding heart liberal by Trumpist standards. What do you think government is for, if not to serve and protect all citizens?
During the 50s and 60s you could attend any California State school tuition free. There was the GI Bill after WW2 where expenses were paid for veterans and low interest mortgages.

Pretty much every European nation as well as Japan, Canada, South Korea and others have had a form of universal healthcare for decades. Does Rocky believe all these countries are Bolshevik?

Seriously Rocky, do you even know what Bolshevism or Communism is? Joe Biden ain't some left wing Commie and neither are the Republicans who founded The Lincoln Group.

And BTW, it is moronically ignorant to think that Trump is some free market conservative. He's farther away from being a conservative than I am. Conservatives are AGAINST tariffs and government involvement in markets. They are fiscally responsible.

Trump is NONE of those things. Trump promotes tariffs. He is a crony capitalist helping friends and anyone who will kiss him between his butt cheeks.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 10:20 AM   #53
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I thought calling lefties Communists went out as soon as Trump started cozying up with Putin. I thought the tactic now was to say that socialists are Nazis, and point to the full name of that Nazi party as proof?
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Old 2nd August 2020, 10:43 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
What the hell does this even mean? You think Biden is a Bolshevik? Or any mainstream Democrat? Warren? Booker? Harris? Even Sanders? Affordable college and health care, environmental protections, banking and corporate regulation etc. are hardly leftist fantasies. Nixon created the EPA and supported a universal health insurance plan. State colleges used to be cheap. Even Reagan, who approved the AT&T breakup and promoted immigration reform, would be a bleeding heart liberal by Trumpist standards. What do you think government is for, if not to serve and protect all citizens?
Orange man bad.... meh.
Bernie is a Socialist and comes right out and says so, interestingly he's the only Democrat who actually believes what he says, the rest are Establishment part cogs.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 10:45 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
During the 50s and 60s you could attend any California State school tuition free. There was the GI Bill after WW2 where expenses were paid for veterans and low interest mortgages.

Pretty much every European nation as well as Japan, Canada, South Korea and others have had a form of universal healthcare for decades. Does Rocky believe all these countries are Bolshevik?

Seriously Rocky, do you even know what Bolshevism or Communism is? Joe Biden ain't some left wing Commie and neither are the Republicans who founded The Lincoln Group.

And BTW, it is moronically ignorant to think that Trump is some free market conservative. He's farther away from being a conservative than I am. Conservatives are AGAINST tariffs and government involvement in markets. They are fiscally responsible. Trump promotes tariffs. He is a crony capitalist helping friends and anyone who will kiss him between his butt cheeks.
The proper word if we're going old school, is filthy PINKO. P I N K O....
Use it correctly, as in I'm gonna vote Biden and I hate America. (Joking on the last part)
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Old 2nd August 2020, 10:46 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I thought calling lefties Communists went out as soon as Trump started cozying up with Putin. I thought the tactic now was to say that socialists are Nazis, and point to the full name of that Nazi party as proof?
Putin is not a Commie, when Communism fell the former KGB dudes basically became the mob, Russia is more of a Czarry feeling Mob state these days.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 11:00 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
The proper word if we're going old school, is filthy PINKO. P I N K O....
Use it correctly, as in I'm gonna vote Biden and I hate America. (Joking on the last part)
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Old 2nd August 2020, 11:02 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
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I didnt watch the hathnow video.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 11:05 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Orange man bad.... meh.
Bernie is a Socialist and comes right out and says so, interestingly he's the only Democrat who actually believes what he says, the rest are Establishment part cogs.
Bernie is not a Democrat. The only time Bernie says he's a Democrat is during Presidential elections. And comparing Bernie to Biden really is absurd. But go ahead, pretend Biden is some wild eyed communist. The world knows better.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 11:07 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
I didnt watch the hathnow video.
I thought you would get a kick out of it. I guess even humor is lost.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 11:07 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Putin is not a Commie, when Communism fell the former KGB dudes basically became the mob, Russia is more of a Czarry feeling Mob state these days.
Indeed. And that's why Trump's mouth is Putin's cock holster.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 11:12 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Indeed. And that's why Trump's mouth is Putin's cock holster.
Agreed, they both have righty leanings, Russia is a Mob state these days.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 11:13 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Putin is not a Commie, when Communism fell the former KGB dudes basically became the mob, Russia is more of a Czarry feeling Mob state these days.
I didn't say Putin was a Communist.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 11:15 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
*snip*
My problems with them:

1) For starters, I'm not a fan of the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"

*snip*
At this point, that is what you should adopt. Get your common enemy down, and sort your differences out afterwards.

Politics would be meaningless it everyone agreed, but Trump is not politics. He is destructive. Join up with anyone to get him down and do the politics later.

Hans
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Old 2nd August 2020, 11:21 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Orange man bad.... meh.
He's bad. That's true. He's also incompetent. His handing of COVID has resulted in more than a 150,000 deaths at a cost of more than two trillion dollars. And both numbers are sure to climb considerably.

In comparison, South Korea a nation with a population of about 50 million, had its first COVID death on the same day as the US. It has had about 300 deaths and its economy outside of international travel is entirely functioning.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 11:32 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
He's bad. That's true. He's also incompetent. His handing of COVID has resulted in more than a 150,000 deaths at a cost of more than two trillion dollars. And both numbers are sure to climb considerably.

In comparison, South Korea a nation with a population of about 50 million, had its first COVID death on the same day as the US. It has had about 300 deaths and its economy outside of international travel is entirely functioning.
South Korea is irrelevant, Apple and Orange. The US is a huge place with 300 million people in 50 states, the situation was doomed to be more complicated, than a smaller place with a homogenius population. That is a moved goal post.

Yes, trump sucks, but so do the establishment democrats, and by staying home thinking Hillary was a shoe in, many of those democrats are responsible for the Orange man being there. Own it.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 11:44 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
South Korea is irrelevant, Apple and Orange. The US is a huge place with 300 million people in 50 states, the situation was doomed to be more complicated, than a smaller place with a homogenius population. That is a moved goal post.

Yes, trump sucks, but so do the establishment democrats, and by staying home thinking Hillary was a shoe in, many of those democrats are responsible for the Orange man being there. Own it.
Oh BS. Your absurd false equivalence is nonsense. South Korea responded to the crisis immediately and followed the science. They quickly responded with masks, social distancing and contact tracing.

Trump was fully aware of the problem with COVID in China for months and did nothing. And then he ceded any leadership and responsibility to the 50 governors. He blamed the CDC, he blamed WHO and never ever even attempted to lead. He did worse than that. He sowed confusion and rebellion against common sense and science and now the nation is certain to see more Americans dying from this disease than the number of US soldiers dying during WW2.

Trump may not be responsible for COVID, but he damn sure is responsible for this nation's pathetic response.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 11:47 AM   #68
rockysmith76
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Oh BS. Your absurd false equivalence is nonsense. The fact is Trump was fully aware of the problem with COVID in China for months and did nothing.

And then he ceded any leadership and responsibility to the 50 governors. He blamed the CDC, he blamed WHO and never ever even attempted to lead. He did worse than that. He sowed confusion and rebellion against common sense and science and now the nation is certain to see more Americans dying from this disease than the number of US soldiers dying during WW2.

Trump may not be responsible for COVID, but he damn sure is responsible for this nation's pathetic response.
Korea is a crap comparison, completely different place, YOU moved the goal post, we would have had a mess regardless. The situation can be handled locally, and well in some cases, my state has done pretty well, but you arent caring about the pandemic, because, Orange Man bad, you have blinders on.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 11:53 AM   #69
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Korea is a crap comparison, completely different place, YOU moved the goal post, we would have had a mess regardless. The situation can be handled locally, and well in some cases, my state has done pretty well, but you arent caring about the pandemic, because, Orange Man bad, you have blinders on.
I didn't move the goalposts. Trump is an incompetent boob. He's stupid beyond belief. He thinks only about how it might affect him. He's irresponsible and couldn't lead a two year old to the toilet.

And NO it can't be handled locally. Sheesh.
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Last edited by acbytesla; 2nd August 2020 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 11:57 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Korea is a crap comparison, completely different place, YOU moved the goal post, we would have had a mess regardless. The situation can be handled locally, and well in some cases, my state has done pretty well, but you arent caring about the pandemic, because, Orange Man bad, you have blinders on.
There's a technique in this kind of argument, it allows you not to have to actually think about what other people are saying.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:00 PM   #71
rockysmith76
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
There's a technique in this kind of argument, it allows you not to have to actually think about what other people are saying.
What you are doing is called a dodge, so here's a question. What would a democrat have done to mitigate better, and here's the challenge. No Orange man bad blaming.... offer the better alternative. Can you? And I am not intending to defend Cheeto face, I am challenging you to offer a better plan. Proceed.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:20 PM   #72
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
There's a technique in this kind of argument, it allows you not to have to actually think about what other people are saying.
Yep, you nailed it.

Rocky refuses to address the facts that Trump did NOTHING for months..absolutely ******* NOTHING. He had the US leave the WHO, during a worldwide pandemic and slams our own CDC when they contradict him.

He dismissed wearing masks and social distancing, never put on a mask for 6 months. And this resulted in every red neck also to also do the same. That he pushed governors to reopen to soon. Held political rallies ignoring social distancing and masks.

He suggested ingesting bleach and continues to promote quack medicine that both the CDC and the WHO both say is dangerous.

I despise Trump as a human being. That is true. But Rocky is the one wearing blinders. The only things Trump has done right with COVID, he did either reluctantly and/or after doing the wrong thing.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:26 PM   #73
rockysmith76
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Yep, you nailed it.

Rocky refuses to address the facts that Trump did NOTHING for months..absolutely ******* NOTHING. He had the US leave the WHO, during a worldwide pandemic and slams our own CDC when they contradict him.

He dismissed wearing masks and social distancing, never put on a mask for 6 months. And this resulted in every red neck also to also do the same. That he pushed governors to reopen to soon. Held political rallies ignoring social distancing and masks.

He suggested ingesting bleach and continues to promote quack medicine that both the CDC and the WHO both say is dangerous.

I despise Trump as a human being. That is true. But Rocky is the one wearing blinders. The only things Trump has done right with COVID, he did either reluctantly and/or after doing the wrong thing.
So rather than address the whole complexity of the Pandemic, you can only do Orange Man Bad, you have the blinders. And are part of the problem.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:30 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
They aren't just Republican in ideals or ideology. they are Republican in sleezy tactics.

They are old-style Republicans = pre-Tea-Party Republicans. As are the Clintons and Biden, but in the other party.
They aren't happy with Trump and the success he has had in turning their party into a right-extremist populist party, a process that started long before Trump's candidacy.

The old-style Republican John McCain courted the Tea Party movement when he chose Sarah Palin as his vice presidential candidate in 2008. It's possible that he and the other establishment Republicans thought that it was a way of taming the populists, much like the DNC have managed to tame left-wing Democrats and convince them that they have no other choice than Biden, who represents the exact same ideas that made Republican voters choose Trump four years ago: Pretending that they are on the side of workers and the middle class while catering to the interests of Wall Street.

I don't think that it will be possible for people like the Lincoln Project and Mitt Romney to turn the Republican Party around at this point.
Maybe the Republican Party will split in two when Trump is defeated in November: establishment Republicans and fascist Republicans. The latter seem to be where the vast majority of Republican voters are, and they seem to be as unlikely to change as the members of most other cults. That their leader is doing his best to kill and harm a significant number of them doesn't even shake their faith in him.

They not only want to believe, they need to believe - as Randi used to say ...
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:33 PM   #75
rockysmith76
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
They are old-style Republicans = pre-Tea-Party Republicans. As are the Clintons and Biden, but in the other party.
They aren't happy with Trump and the success he has had in turning their party into a right-extremist populist party, a process that started long before Trump's candidacy.

The old-style Republican John McCain courted the Tea Party movement when he chose Sarah Palin as his vice presidential candidate in 2008. It's possible that he and the other establishment Republicans thought that it was a way of taming the populists, much like the DNC have managed to tame left-wing Democrats and convince them that they have no other choice than Biden, who represents the exact same ideas that made Republican voters choose Trump four years ago: Pretending that they are on the side of workers and the middle class while catering to the interests of Wall Street.

I don't think that it will be possible for people like the Lincoln Project and Mitt Romney to turn the Republican Party around at this point.
Maybe the Republican Party will split in two when Trump is defeated in November: establishment Republicans and fascist Republicans. The latter seem to be where the vast majority of Republican voters are, and they seem to be as unlikely to change as the members of most other cults. That their leader is doing his best to kill and harm a significant number of them doesn't even shake their faith in him.

They not only want to believe, they need to believe - as Randi used to say ...
There are establishment cogs in both parties.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:36 PM   #76
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Republican voters didn't vote for Trump because his opponent was Clinton, they voted for Trump because he was the Republican candidate. Used to be, most of the country would turn out for one candidate or the other, winners got most of the vote and there was no question who won. Not now, since before I was born the party lines were drawn and no one crosses them.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:39 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Bernie is not a Democrat. The only time Bernie says he's a Democrat is during Presidential elections. And comparing Bernie to Biden really is absurd. But go ahead, pretend Biden is some wild eyed communist. The world knows better.
Bernie's not a wild-eyed communist either. He's closer to a Hubert Humphrey Democrat. His key platform issues -- affordable college, universal health care, union protections etc. -- would have been mainstream Democratic ideals in the pre-Reagan era.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:41 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
So rather than address the whole complexity of the Pandemic, you can only do Orange Man Bad, you have the blinders. And are part of the problem.
Again, you didn't address a damn thing. I pointed out both Trump's inaction and his actions. That isn't simply saying "Orange man bad". It showed his massive incompetence and his stupidity. Take off the blinders Rocky. Trump is a failure as President.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:44 PM   #79
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Bernie's not a wild-eyed communist either. He's closer to a Hubert Humphrey Democrat. His key platform issues -- affordable college, universal health care, union protections etc. -- would have been mainstream Democratic ideals in the pre-Reagan era.
I agree. My biggest complaint with Bernie is that he played outside the party. I like Sanders...but Biden is much more conservative than Bernie.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:44 PM   #80
rockysmith76
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Again, you didn't address a damn thing. I pointed out both Trump's inaction and his actions. That isn't simply saying "Orange man bad". It showed his massive incompetence and his stupidity. Take off the blinders Rocky. Trump is a failure as President.
But you dont offer a better plan, just lay blame. If you want to be better, you need a better alternative and you aren't offering one. You're playing politics, and are therefore part of the problem and in the way of a solution.
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