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Old 10th September 2020, 03:07 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
70s, 80s part of the 90s, before the PC mob ruined the whole system.
Translation: Before we could happily **** anyone over for personal gains without anyone doing anything about it. What a great 'system' that was.

It warms my heart to see all these old schoolers whining and crying about the changes that are happening right now.
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Old 10th September 2020, 08:36 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Translation: Before we could happily **** anyone over for personal gains without anyone doing anything about it. What a great 'system' that was.

It warms my heart to see all these old schoolers whining and crying about the changes that are happening right now.
By limiting their exposure you limit their experience, and produce a stunted generation, is that really worth the whole safe space nonsense?
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Old 10th September 2020, 08:46 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
By limiting their exposure you limit their experience, and produce a stunted generation, is that really worth the whole safe space nonsense?
Please explain the 2 highlighted parts in detail.
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Old 10th September 2020, 08:54 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Please explain the 2 highlighted parts in detail.
Example: You deprive them of knowing what actually happened in WWII and what Nazism actually is and was, and they have a stunted view of or ignorant one. One of many.

Before you know it everyone is saying Double Ungood and Orwell becomes right.
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Old 10th September 2020, 08:58 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Example: You deprive them of knowing what actually happened in WWII and what Nazism actually is and was, and they have a stunted view of or ignorant one. One of many.

Before you know it everyone is saying Double Ungood and Orwell becomes right.
More cryptic stuff. What 'actually' happened in WWII and what 'actually' was Nazism and how do we "deprive" the youth from knowing it?
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Old 10th September 2020, 09:01 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Example: You deprive them of knowing what actually happened in WWII and what Nazism actually is and was, and they have a stunted view of or ignorant one. One of many.

Before you know it everyone is saying Double Ungood and Orwell becomes right.
Why would that even come up for say someone doing a degree in Physics?
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Old 10th September 2020, 09:03 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why would that even come up for say someone doing a degree in Physics?
Why is it so foreign an idea to have a well rounded worldy person come out of college than some sheltered physics knowing snowflake who can't handle unpleasantness? Your turn....
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Old 10th September 2020, 09:05 AM   #88
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The Professor said nega and that is how it was written in the subtitles shown with the video.

Arnold Schwarzenegger is now cancelling his tour of universities.
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Old 10th September 2020, 09:07 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Why is it so foreign an idea to have a well rounded worldy person come out of college than some sheltered physics knowing snowflake who can't handle unpleasantness? Your turn....
At least in this country people go to university to study a subject, that is what they pay for and what they expect to receive so when would a physics student learn about Nazi germany during their course?

I think if I wanted to study physics I'd be mightily pissed off if they tried to teach me Nazi history, why would I want to pay for that education since it isn't something I wanted to learn about?
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Old 10th September 2020, 09:10 AM   #90
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I decrypted Rockys claims. The funny part is that students are deprived of that knowledge just because it is not part of the curriculum. Someone seems to have a hard time understanding how universities work.
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Old 10th September 2020, 09:12 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
At least in this country people go to university to study a subject, that is what they pay for and what they expect to receive so when would a physics student learn about Nazi germany during their course?

I think if I wanted to study physics I'd be mightily pissed off if they tried to teach me Nazi history, why would I want to pay for that education since it isn't something I wanted to learn about?
Then ignorance is it's own reward, and the problem with stem based education
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Old 10th September 2020, 09:14 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
The funny part is that students are deprived of not taught about that knowledge just because it is not part of the curriculum.
FTFY. Nobody taught me anything about Nazi Germany in the course of my physics degree, nor indeed about early Renaissance art, market formation or how to direct a film. I was, however, perfectly free to look these things up for myself, which I chose to do or not to do according to preference.

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Old 10th September 2020, 09:18 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
FTFY. Nobody taught me anything about Nazi Germany in the course of my physics degree, nor indeed about early Renaissance art, market formation or how to direct a film. I was, however, perfectly free to look these things up for myself, which I chose to do or not to do according to preference.

Dave
Yeah, at an University level education, Nazi history is only taught if your subject is History or at least history related. In Germany (and probably the neighboring countries) Nazi history is taught in middle school and high school, though.
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Old 10th September 2020, 09:18 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Then ignorance is it's own reward, and the problem with stem based education
It isn't limited to "STEM" subjects, if I was doing an art degree (not history of art) I wouldn't be expected to learn about Nazi or any other history. If I did a degree in English literature again would be very unlikely to ever encounter a requirement to be taught about Nazi history, if I was studying Chinese I wouldn't be expected to learn the history of Nazism.

Really not getting why and when a student would be taught about Nazi history outside a history or politics course (perhaps also philosophy)?

Can you point me to examples of curriculums from the 80s or even 90s that show this was a standard part of curriculums across most universities back then? I'm now curious to understand how these curriculums are different to what kids today have.
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Old 10th September 2020, 09:21 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
FTFY. Nobody taught me anything about Nazi Germany in the course of my physics degree, nor indeed about early Renaissance art, market formation or how to direct a film. I was, however, perfectly free to look these things up for myself, which I chose to do or not to do according to preference.

Dave
My peer group went to university during the 80s (quite a few went into human and animal medicine, rest did silly soft subjects like History) and I can't recall any of them ever saying they were being taught Nazi history, that's why I'm curious to find out where and when these very different curriculums existed.
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Old 10th September 2020, 09:29 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
On the first day of class, Nigar's teacher will tell her that her new name is "Maryanne."
There actually was a Vietnamese student whose name sounded like a pair of English curse words who was told by his teacher to change his name. I seem to recall the teacher lost his job.

If the name was offensive to African-Americans, though? Who knows.
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Old 10th September 2020, 09:59 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
My peer group went to university during the 80s (quite a few went into human and animal medicine, rest did silly soft subjects like History) and I can't recall any of them ever saying they were being taught Nazi history, that's why I'm curious to find out where and when these very different curriculums existed.
In 1984, Sixth Year Studies history in Scotland, apparently about 80% of schools opted to do Nazi Germany. My school did Louis XIV.
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Old 10th September 2020, 10:44 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The Professor said nega and that is how it was written in the subtitles shown with the video.

Arnold Schwarzenegger is now cancelling his tour of universities.
Oh you can't say his name in here. The polite way is "Arnold Schwarzen-hard R
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Old 10th September 2020, 11:30 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
My peer group went to university during the 80s (quite a few went into human and animal medicine, rest did silly soft subjects like History) and I can't recall any of them ever saying they were being taught Nazi history, that's why I'm curious to find out where and when these very different curriculums existed.
My uni (well poly as it was) time was mid-80s, and exact same thing.
My eldest brother was at uni in the late 70s and did engineeringy things for his engineering degree.

Of course, if one of my kids were to do a history degree I'm sure there would be an option to study (at least in part) things around 30s Europe and fascism. For example the current OU History curriculum has this option, part of which covers the new societies of Italy, Germany and Russia.
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Old 11th September 2020, 02:01 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
70s, 80s part of the 90s, before the PC mob ruined the whole system.
Back when youth who went to universities were radicalized enough to engage in outright terrorism? Truly kids these days have lost their edge.
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Old 11th September 2020, 02:07 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Why is it so foreign an idea to have a well rounded worldy person come out of college than some sheltered physics knowing snowflake who can't handle unpleasantness? Your turn....
I thought that was the point primary and secondary education?
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Old 13th September 2020, 01:21 PM   #102
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I just remembered that I've heard the "niga" myself. There's a video game, Wargame: Red Dragon, where some Chinese units have this as the phrase they utter when you select them or give them an order. It's closer to "ni-gah" than the n-word, and frankly impossible to confuse.

It's the Chinese professor who has every reason to be pissed and offended here, not the African-American students. Every single language on the planet has words that coincidentally sounds obscene, rude, or funny in another language. Only in 2020 could that be grounds for losing your job.
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Old 13th September 2020, 01:24 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
FTFY. Nobody taught me anything about Nazi Germany in the course of my physics degree, nor indeed about early Renaissance art, market formation or how to direct a film. I was, however, perfectly free to look these things up for myself, which I chose to do or not to do according to preference.

Dave
I too was "deprived of" learning about Nazi Germany, knitting, and the finer points of speedboat engine maintenance when I was in college studying social work. Turns out Norwegian colleges focuses on what you're actually there to learn about. Whatever you're meant to have to know, they can make you learn in grades 1-10 (elementary and middle school), you know, the part that's compulsory and not meant to prepare you for one single profession. In those years we learned plenty about Nazi Germany. We even did a little bit of knitting, even though I was still deprived of speedboat engine repairs, basic Urdu, Zambian economic history, and Vietnamese folk tales.
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Old 13th September 2020, 02:31 PM   #104
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Interesting: I just found a report on cnn.com which goes into a lot more detail about how the controversy arose. Turns out that an anonymous group referring to itself as "Black MBA candidates c/o 2022"* sent a missive to USC admin staff containing their complaint, and their reasoning behind it.

Without wanting to bother reproducing large bits of text from the report, here it is:

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/10/u...cli/index.html





* And if they don't know the correct meaning of the term "c/o", or that the word "candidates" should have been capitalised in their group's name, this doesn't altogether bode well for their MBA ambitions......
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Old 15th September 2020, 08:24 AM   #105
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Do colleges not require basic courses anymore? I never finished my degree, but I know I took some required history classes, even though I was a psychology major.
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Old 15th September 2020, 08:46 AM   #106
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US universities do. If you want a Bachelor's degree from an accredited university, there's a core educational requirement that covers a broad range of subjects, paired with the bulk of your studies being of degree-specific relevance. That standard doesn't apply to organizations classed as "colleges" but not universities, nor does it apply to organizations providing Associate degrees or technical certifications. Those organizations generally only require topic-specific classes.

I don't know what the standards are elsewhere in the world.
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Old 15th September 2020, 09:17 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post

Without wanting to bother reproducing large bits of text from the report, here it is:

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/10/u...cli/index.html




So the controversy is mostly made up, and amounts to nothing more than an anonymous complaint, with no penalties imposed on the professor other than him voluntarily turning over the class to someone else.

This is comparable to a restaurant manager dealing with a difficult customer by having someone else take over the table. The only person who may be slightly worse off is the one being assigned the extra work.
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Old 15th September 2020, 11:35 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
So the controversy is mostly made up, and amounts to nothing more than an anonymous complaint, with no penalties imposed on the professor other than him voluntarily turning over the class to someone else.

This is comparable to a restaurant manager dealing with a difficult customer by having someone else take over the table. The only person who may be slightly worse off is the one being assigned the extra work.


I can envision different scenarios:
1) A customer is being a pain in the butt to an employee, and the employee asks to have someone else deal with them
2) A customer is being a pain in the butt to an employee, and insists that a different employee serve them, and the original employee is assigned to a different area of the restaurant
3) A customer gets deeply offended that an employee's nametag reads "Gay" and perceives it as a homophobic sentiment (despite it actually being her name), rallies a bunch of other people to be deeply offended by the employee's actual name, and the restaurant owner decides to cut Gay's hours, and won't let her work the main area of the dining room any more.

Which of those do you think is the best parallel to this situation? Which of them do you think are reasonable and appropriate reactions to a customer's demands?
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Old 15th September 2020, 12:36 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
So the controversy is mostly made up, and amounts to nothing more than an anonymous complaint, with no penalties imposed on the professor other than him voluntarily turning over the class to someone else.

This is comparable to a restaurant manager dealing with a difficult customer by having someone else take over the table. The only person who may be slightly worse off is the one being assigned the extra work.
I missed the part of the article that stated that the professor traded classes with the other professor.
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Old 15th September 2020, 12:51 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post


I can envision different scenarios:
1) A customer is being a pain in the butt to an employee, and the employee asks to have someone else deal with them
2) A customer is being a pain in the butt to an employee, and insists that a different employee serve them, and the original employee is assigned to a different area of the restaurant
3) A customer gets deeply offended that an employee's nametag reads "Gay" and perceives it as a homophobic sentiment (despite it actually being her name), rallies a bunch of other people to be deeply offended by the employee's actual name, and the restaurant owner decides to cut Gay's hours, and won't let her work the main area of the dining room any more.

Which of those do you think is the best parallel to this situation? Which of them do you think are reasonable and appropriate reactions to a customer's demands?

Yes, this. (Though I'd suggest that a better analogy might, for example, be a person whose parents named them for the famous German philosopher Kant. After all "gay" does not by any stretch have to be used in a derogatory sense).


But to extend your Option 3 further (to further mirror what's reported in that article, using my example of "Kant"):

3) /cont: The restaurant manager writes a communication to be read by the restaurant's customers, which says: "The waitress in question showed, several times, the word on her name badge which reads very similar to a derogatory and offensive term for female genitals. Understandably, this caused great pain and upset for the diner, and for that I am deeply sorry. It is simply unacceptable for the wait staff in this restaurant to display words in the front-of-house that can marginalize, hurt and harm the psychological safety of our diners. We must and we will do better. I am deeply saddened by the disturbing episode, and any diners uncomfortable with being served by this waitress would have alternative options for ordering their food and drink.
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Old 15th September 2020, 12:58 PM   #111
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And incidentally, that (for me) is one of the most troubling pieces of additional information to have come from that cnn.com article: the nature and tone of the email sent by the faculty management to the students. After all, it appears to demonstrate that management have already decided that what Patton said was wrong and unacceptable - it doesn't even talk in terms of "we are looking into this matter further before making any judgement or taking any firm decisions, but in the mean time Prof Patton has agreed to step aside from teaching that class...."


Most bizarre, and - on the face of it - most troubling. Though the one major caveat to that (which I've mentioned before) is if the management actually have other reliable evidence regarding intent on Patton's part: if, for example, he'd emailed a colleague laughing about how much fun he found it to be able to say a word which sounded like the N-word, especially in front of a class containing black students - or something else similar to that. Though if that were the case, one might expect management to have mentioned it in that email communication, I guess...
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Old 15th September 2020, 01:03 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
I missed the part of the article that stated that the professor traded classes with the other professor.

It doesn't talk of trading classes. It talks purely of another person taking over Patton's class for the remainder of the semester.

And in the light of what the faculty management have apparently told their students* about how they've judged Patton's actions - "unacceptable", "disturbing episode" and so on - I can't think that Patton is particularly enjoying teaching his remaining classes, either (irrespective of what kind of reception his students in those classes - especially the black students - might have been giving him).


* And the whole World, for that matter....
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Old 15th September 2020, 01:17 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
And incidentally, that (for me) is one of the most troubling pieces of additional information to have come from that cnn.com article: the nature and tone of the email sent by the faculty management to the students. After all, it appears to demonstrate that management have already decided that what Patton said was wrong and unacceptable - it doesn't even talk in terms of "we are looking into this matter further before making any judgement or taking any firm decisions, but in the mean time Prof Patton has agreed to step aside from teaching that class...."


Most bizarre, and - on the face of it - most troubling. Though the one major caveat to that (which I've mentioned before) is if the management actually have other reliable evidence regarding intent on Patton's part: if, for example, he'd emailed a colleague laughing about how much fun he found it to be able to say a word which sounded like the N-word, especially in front of a class containing black students - or something else similar to that. Though if that were the case, one might expect management to have mentioned it in that email communication, I guess...
Pretty much agreed.

I was also troubled by the objection letter making the comment that people speaking chinese in america should know that a common word in their language is offensive and avoid using it.
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Old 15th September 2020, 01:45 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Pretty much agreed.

I was also troubled by the objection letter making the comment that people speaking chinese in america should know that a common word in their language is offensive and avoid using it.

Yes. I forgot to mention that one as well.

(on a minor - but nevertheless very relevant - observation, especially for an academic institution: if USC Marshall is going to be issuing communications on this matter, they ought perhaps to know (or to have asked if they did not know) that there is no such thing as "Chinese" as a spoken language. There is "Chinese" as a written language - but it's fundamentally a pictographic language which then translates into spoken words dependent on the specific spoken language being used*. What they should be discussing here is "Mandarin", not "Chinese". It's a relevant distinction)


* To take a simplistic analogy in order to illustrate the principle: suppose that there was a written pictographic language called "European". In this pictographic language, the concept of "house" was written using a simple picture of a box with a triangle (roof) on top of it, with four smaller squares (windows) and a rectangle (door) within the box.

But suppose that a British person, a French person and a Spanish person were reading aloud from "European", which was the common written language to all three of them.

The British person would read the pictograph of the box with the triangle etc, and would speak the word "House"; the French person would read the pictograph and would speak the word "Maison"; the Spanish person would speak the word "Casa".

All three people used exactly the same (pictographic) written language - "European" - but each of the three spoke entirely different words for the same written "word".

Last edited by LondonJohn; 15th September 2020 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 15th September 2020, 03:44 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
This and the OP remind me of when Toyota had a model of sports car called the MR2. All well and good, they must have thought; that'll translate easily throughout the world, they must have thought.

Except....

In French, the model name is pronounced "Emm" (M) "Airrr" (R) "duh" (2). Which, if you say it fairly quickly, and strangle the first vowel sound (as is common in colloquial French), you end up saying something which sounds almost identical to the French word "Merdeux". Which means "faeces-y" (but with the s- word instead of faeces)
I think most Brits will recognise that as *****.
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Old 15th September 2020, 03:46 PM   #116
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Ha ha! Looks like the censor bot didn't like that. It was just dropping the -ux.
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Old 15th September 2020, 06:25 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Do colleges not require basic courses anymore? I never finished my degree, but I know I took some required history classes, even though I was a psychology major.
From personal experience, I'd say attending college in the US involves studying and rehashing a lot of material that was or at least ought to have been covered in High School.

I've always assumed the 3 month summer vacations wipe the brain clear of everything learnt in the previous term.
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Old 15th September 2020, 08:36 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Ron Obvious View Post
From personal experience, I'd say attending college in the US involves studying and rehashing a lot of material that was or at least ought to have been covered in High School.

I've always assumed the 3 month summer vacations wipe the brain clear of everything learnt in the previous term.
Not an USAan experience, but on of my first University lectures was Physics, where the lecturer never bothered opening any of the books on our reading list, except when we had to do practical work. His attitude was, Im not going to write equations on the board or explain them, I expect all of you to have learned maths in high school..
He was refreshing. He was also great at explaining Physics concepts, so that a number of times while going through concepts introduced but that in high school were just an exercise in regurgitating the equation/answer, a little light would go pop as my mind snapped around envisaging such things as time-space, black holes, etc. true epiphany moments.
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Old 15th September 2020, 09:04 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
(on a minor - but nevertheless very relevant - observation, especially for an academic institution: if USC Marshall is going to be issuing communications on this matter, they ought perhaps to know (or to have asked if they did not know) that there is no such thing as "Chinese" as a spoken language. There is "Chinese" as a written language - but it's fundamentally a pictographic language which then translates into spoken words dependent on the specific spoken language being used*. What they should be discussing here is "Mandarin", not "Chinese". It's a relevant distinction
Kinda. Chinese people tend to call Mandarin ‘Chinese’ in casual use - for instance my wife will say she speaks Chinese, Cantonese and Hokkien. My native-Cantonese speaking brother in law says he speaks Cantonese and Chinese. That might be down to it being called hnyu, so not translating directly to mandarin.

Of course, the chances of the letter writers being aware of the subtleties of casual usage of the term are probably lower than them being, well, a bit casually racist.

Originally Posted by xjx388
Do colleges not require basic courses anymore? I never finished my degree, but I know I took some required history classes, even though I was a psychology major.
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
US universities do. If you want a Bachelor's degree from an accredited university, there's a core educational requirement that covers a broad range of subjects, paired with the bulk of your studies being of degree-specific relevance. That standard doesn't apply to organizations classed as "colleges" but not universities, nor does it apply to organizations providing Associate degrees or technical certifications. Those organizations generally only require topic-specific classes.

I don't know what the standards are elsewhere in the world.
Not in the UK. You stop doing general education around age 16; after that it is specialised. I think there was a General Studies class at Sixth Form (16-18), maybe even leading to an A-Level, but that is optional.

Last edited by gypsyjackson; 15th September 2020 at 09:05 PM.
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Old 15th September 2020, 09:16 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Ron Obvious View Post
From personal experience, I'd say attending college in the US involves studying and rehashing a lot of material that was or at least ought to have been covered in High School.

The "American History" course I took in college spent the first half of the quarter on the influence of the automobile, and the second half on five or so very specific topics - so one week each. One of them was the Battle of Manilla Bay. I can't remember the rest, but it was 32 years ago. That course expected analysis and understanding, unlike a typical high school course. Then I took two art history courses, which were much more high-school-like, with lots of memorizing of facts.
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