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Old 19th November 2020, 11:25 AM   #361
GlennB
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
So after a couple of weeks ago explaining how they just couldn't go spending money feeding children the government announces this:

Defence funding boost 'extends British influence'


Of course the figures are being disputed but even so its a lot of money, which will probably be spent on cntracts every bit as iffy as those for PPE.
Very iffy, I reckon -

"He said the armed forces would be able to order “a swarm attack by drones paralysing the enemy with the weapons”, and that British warships and combat vehicles “will carry directed energy weapons” – a reference to emerging laser and radio frequency weapons. It is unclear how effective they are."
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Old 19th November 2020, 03:47 PM   #362
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We are at least getting some extra frigates which is good news
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Old 19th November 2020, 04:30 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Very iffy, I reckon -

"He said the armed forces would be able to order “a swarm attack by drones paralysing the enemy with the weapons”, and that British warships and combat vehicles “will carry directed energy weapons” – a reference to emerging laser and radio frequency weapons. It is unclear how effective they are."
Oh great, slaughterbots:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HipTO_7mUOw
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Old 20th November 2020, 04:45 AM   #364
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Another case of "one rule for us and another for them".

Priti Patel broke ministerial code on behaviour. She should have resigned but has received Boris Johnson's full backing so standards advisor has resigned instead.

Quote:
Boris Johnson's adviser on ministerial code resigns after the PM backs Home Secretary Priti Patel after bullying inquiry.

The government's standards adviser Sir Alex Allan found Ms Patel's approach "amounted to behaviour that can be described as bullying".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55016076
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Old 20th November 2020, 05:00 AM   #365
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^Yup, shows neither Johnson nor Patel actually understand how bullying works...

Lemme see, why might that be?
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Old 20th November 2020, 05:04 AM   #366
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Why is it a surprise that the man who didn't sack Dominic Cummings for driving to Barnard Castle and didn't sack Dido Harding for pissing £12BN up the wall hasn't sacked Priti Patel for her reign of terror across multiple departments?
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Old 20th November 2020, 05:06 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
^Yup, shows neither Johnson nor Patel actually understand how bullying works...

Lemme see, why might that be?
Disagree, they know exactly how bullying works....
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Old 20th November 2020, 05:24 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why is it a surprise that the man who didn't sack Dominic Cummings for driving to Barnard Castle and didn't sack Dido Harding for pissing £12BN up the wall hasn't sacked Priti Patel for her reign of terror across multiple departments?
Not to mention not sacking himself for repeatedly breaching Covid safety guidelines...
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Old 20th November 2020, 05:29 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Disagree, they know exactly how bullying works....
Sorry, I took them at face value when they said she wasn't bullying: I forgot I was referring to lying, dishonest, untrustworthy, bordering on psychopathic, twisting folk.

I blame my Methodist up-bringing and all that stuff about the improvability of Man (or Woman or Whoever...), which still, despite various of my life experiences, leaves a little core of optimism that sneaks out at times.

I shall now go and give myself a good talking to, in order to avoid such a rookie error again.
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Old 20th November 2020, 06:36 AM   #370
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Question is how will the media respond? If they take Johnson's lead and bury the story Patel will survive. if they decide to go full outrage mode about Patel and ignoring the report then I suspect Patel will be gone shortly.
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Old 20th November 2020, 11:12 AM   #371
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Oh, look!

Patel has apologised...Well, I say apologised, but it was another one of those politician non-apologies and you can bet she had her fingers crossed and then mouthed "No, I don't!"
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Old 20th November 2020, 11:19 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
Oh, look!

Patel has apologised...Well, I say apologised, but it was another one of those politician non-apologies and you can bet she had her fingers crossed and then mouthed "No, I don't!"
Yeah it was an " I'm sorry you're such a wuss that you were upset by my words and actions" kind of apology.
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Old 20th November 2020, 11:22 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Question is how will the media respond? If they take Johnson's lead and bury the story Patel will survive. if they decide to go full outrage mode about Patel and ignoring the report then I suspect Patel will be gone shortly.
Cummings didn’t go even though it caused I think irrecoverable damage to our attempts to deal with the pandemic.

They know the media can whistle as much as they want.

She’ll go when she personally upsets Johnson or his current partner, before then she is as safe as houses.
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Old 20th November 2020, 01:13 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Cummings didn’t go even though it caused I think irrecoverable damage to our attempts to deal with the pandemic.

They know the media can whistle as much as they want.

She’ll go when she personally upsets Johnson or his current partner, before then she is as safe as houses.
Has Cummings gone, even now? There was a lot of theatrics with a cardboard box, but isn’t he working from home now?
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Old 20th November 2020, 04:08 PM   #375
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John Redwood tweets

Well done the PM. Back your Home Secretary. Help her cut through to take control of our borders and battle crime. Why hasn’t the Home Office done more to stop people trafficking across the Channel as the Home Secretary wishes?
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Old 20th November 2020, 04:13 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
John Redwood tweets

Well done the PM. Back your Home Secretary. Help her cut through to take control of our borders and battle crime. Why hasn’t the Home Office done more to stop people trafficking across the Channel as the Home Secretary wishes?
My caring and compassionate MP.
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Old 20th November 2020, 05:06 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
My caring and compassionate MP.
You poor bastard. Fortunately mine is, while still a tory, new and thus no longer the colossal waste of oxygen the previous moron was.
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Old 20th November 2020, 05:07 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Disagree, they know exactly how bullying works....
But they seem to be not very good at it.
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Old 20th November 2020, 05:21 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Has Cummings gone, even now? There was a lot of theatrics with a cardboard box, but isn’t he working from home now?
I've been wondering the same, due to the somewhat contrived display that suggested 'Boris is strong and in charge. See how he sent him packing?' kind of thing.
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Old 21st November 2020, 03:09 AM   #380
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I'm sure Priti Patel is a pussycat, really. That's why the DWP had to pay £25,000 to a former staffer in compensation after her treatment by Patel caused her to attempt suicide.
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Old 21st November 2020, 05:20 AM   #381
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So, we now know that shouting and swearing at people isn't bullying and is actually OK and that anyone who's offended by that is some class of weakling...

All round to the House of Commons to shout and swear at as many members of the Cabinet as we can, 'cos it's obviously OK to do so and in no way bullying or offensive or insulting?
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Old 21st November 2020, 05:49 AM   #382
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Boris considers the matter 'closed'.

Staff that were bullied have gone, the man in charge of investigating and reporting on Ministerial conduct is gone.

So lets move on and put it all behind us.
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Old 21st November 2020, 06:01 AM   #383
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Our PM Boris Johnson has

- backed virus reg breaking Dominic Cummings
- voted to break international law over Brexit
- voted not to feed vulnerable children during school holidays
- backed a MP who has consistently bullied her staff whilst a minister in various departments.

He has no moral compass and no legitimacy. He is scum.
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Old 21st November 2020, 10:45 AM   #384
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Steady on there, Nessie! That's a bit harsh on decent hard-working scum...
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Old 22nd November 2020, 02:22 AM   #385
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Sir Alex Allan was prevented by the government from interviewing a key witness in his probe into Patel's behaviour
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Old 22nd November 2020, 02:53 AM   #386
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It is odd how people get sucked into Johnson's chumocracy, not realising that it is unlikely to last. Look at how Cummings has gone and he seemed totally secure. His record with wives and partners should tell everyone he is fickle and a user.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 05:33 AM   #387
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The message is clear, as long as you’re loyal to the leader you can do what you want and not fear being sacked.

That’s how Britain now works.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 05:44 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
It's SOP in this country for complaints made about bullying bosses: I and at least one other senior colleague made complaints about one particular manager of ours, who habitually bullied and harassed staff; the "investigations" did not show any sign of interviewing most of the staff who could corroborate the substance of the complaints and so did not find anything...

It's straight out of the standard English (is the same true in Scotland, Wales or NI? I've never worked in anyof those) HR playbook. Close ranks around the bosses, leave as much out of the "investigation" as you can, spin the findings your way.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 05:49 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
So, we now know that shouting and swearing at people isn't bullying and is actually OK and that anyone who's offended by that is some class of weakling...

All round to the House of Commons to shout and swear at as many members of the Cabinet as we can, 'cos it's obviously OK to do so and in no way bullying or offensive or insulting?
Come, come. Let's all form a square around the Pritster.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 06:02 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Another case of "one rule for us and another for them".

Priti Patel broke ministerial code on behaviour. She should have resigned but has received Boris Johnson's full backing so standards advisor has resigned instead.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55016076
Yes in the public sector bullying is one of the things that one can be instantly suspended for. Certainly her behaviour should have been addressed when she was earlier in her career. But I wonder if there is a racist element to this? How much do you think this is because as an Asian woman she is expected to behave in a submissive way and if she swears and shouts this has more of an impact and is less forgiven than if a man behaved this way. Mo Mowlam, a labour minister shouted and swore but this was 'endearing'. John Reid was regarded as blunt spoken. Both were white working class, was bad language and shouting culturally acceptable for them but not her? There is a phenomenon that white men get away with things that ethnic minorities are disciplined for. was her behaviour that unusual? How many ministers rant and rave at times? It took me ten seconds to find blunt spoken John Reid, and I know from having a friend who worked for MM that multiple complaints were made by her civil servants to Tony Blair about her behaviour.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 06:04 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
It's SOP in this country for complaints made about bullying bosses: I and at least one other senior colleague made complaints about one particular manager of ours, who habitually bullied and harassed staff; the "investigations" did not show any sign of interviewing most of the staff who could corroborate the substance of the complaints and so did not find anything...

It's straight out of the standard English (is the same true in Scotland, Wales or NI? I've never worked in anyof those) HR playbook. Close ranks around the bosses, leave as much out of the "investigation" as you can, spin the findings your way.

The purpose of HR, as explained by head of HR in one company, is to prevent the company being sued for breaches of employment law. Everything else is window dressing.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 06:09 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Yes in the public sector bullying is one of the things that one can be instantly suspended for. Certainly her behaviour should have been addressed when she was earlier in her career. But I wonder if there is a racist element to this? How much do you think this is because as an Asian woman she is expected to behave in a submissive way and if she swears and shouts this has more of an impact and is less forgiven than if a man behaved this way. Mo Mowlam, a labour minister shouted and swore but this was 'endearing'. John Reid was regarded as blunt spoken. Both were white working class, was bad language and shouting culturally acceptable for them but not her? There is a phenomenon that white men get away with things that ethnic minorities are disciplined for. was her behaviour that unusual? How many ministers rant and rave at times? It took me ten seconds to find blunt spoken John Reid, and I know from having a friend who worked for MM that multiple complaints were made by her civil servants to Tony Blair about her behaviour.
Nah, she's just a nasty piece of work.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 07:48 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Yes in the public sector bullying is one of the things that one can be instantly suspended for. Certainly her behaviour should have been addressed when she was earlier in her career. But I wonder if there is a racist element to this? How much do you think this is because as an Asian woman she is expected to behave in a submissive way and if she swears and shouts this has more of an impact and is less forgiven than if a man behaved this way. Mo Mowlam, a labour minister shouted and swore but this was 'endearing'. John Reid was regarded as blunt spoken. Both were white working class, was bad language and shouting culturally acceptable for them but not her? There is a phenomenon that white men get away with things that ethnic minorities are disciplined for. was her behaviour that unusual? How many ministers rant and rave at times? It took me ten seconds to find blunt spoken John Reid, and I know from having a friend who worked for MM that multiple complaints were made by her civil servants to Tony Blair about her behaviour.
I tend to think that the conclusion drawn from "other people do it, too" should be "therefore they should [have] suffer[ed] consequences, too", rather than "therefore nobody should suffer any consequences".

Priti Patel allegedly drove someone to attempt suicide. That's not okay, no matter how sharp a tongue other people may or may not have.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 11:03 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
We are at least getting some extra frigates which is good news
Only if they are at least 38's with 18-pounders. 44's would be better.

Sorry, been reading too much historical fiction.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 11:21 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Only if they are at least 38's with 18-pounders. 44's would be better.

Sorry, been reading too much historical fiction.
An 88? That would be a bit bigger than a Frigate!
That would be a Third Rate and a Ship of the Line.

A two deck 80 gun 3rd rate was the preferred ship to have in commission in peacetime, most of the 1st and 2nd hulls were laid up. They were too big and crew heavy to be economic.

Some of the big Frigates in service in the 19th c had up to 50 - 24pdr guns but usually a Frigate in RN service was much smaller.

A Frigate in RN usage was a ship with a single gun deck built for speed, scouting, carrying signals and independent operation. Actual size and armament varied widely.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 02:54 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Nah, she's just a nasty piece of work.
Indeed. The "racism" angle appears to be a smokescreen to cover for her misdeeds and BuBu's unwillingness to deal with them.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 02:33 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Indeed. The "racism" angle appears to be a smokescreen to cover for her misdeeds and BuBu's unwillingness to deal with them.
This is how institutional racism works. White (usually male) people get away with it. Examples are made of ethnic minority people. Disproportionately disciplinary cases are brought against BAME lawyers and doctors. Why is the only senior politician investigated formally for bullying an asian female when many other white politicians have behaved similarly and not suffered the consequences?

Having said that, Ms. Patel should not be exempt from the consequences of her action because she is asian. She should have been disciplined, (in some manner), certainly she should be required to be taking some form of training in personal interactions at minimum. Was this serious enough to be sacked, I am not sure, if there have been previous complaints held up on investigation, then yes. If this is the first time the issue has been raised with her then no.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 03:07 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
This is how institutional racism works. White (usually male) people get away with it. Examples are made of ethnic minority people. Disproportionately disciplinary cases are brought against BAME lawyers and doctors. Why is the only senior politician investigated formally for bullying an asian female when many other white politicians have behaved similarly and not suffered the consequences?

Having said that, Ms. Patel should not be exempt from the consequences of her action because she is asian. She should have been disciplined, (in some manner), certainly she should be required to be taking some form of training in personal interactions at minimum. Was this serious enough to be sacked, I am not sure, if there have been previous complaints held up on investigation, then yes. If this is the first time the issue has been raised with her then no.
Someone attempted suicide because of her bullying. I don't care if this was the first or the fifteenth time she was accused she should be sacked and stripped of the conservative whip.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 03:53 AM   #399
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
My caring and compassionate MP.
And he's still miming to other people's words I see.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:08 AM   #400
Darat
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
This is how institutional racism works. White (usually male) people get away with it. Examples are made of ethnic minority people. Disproportionately disciplinary cases are brought against BAME lawyers and doctors. Why is the only senior politician investigated formally for bullying an asian female when many other white politicians have behaved similarly and not suffered the consequences?

...snip...
You have seemingly equated "plain speaking" with what she did (and not alleged - the report found she had breached the code). Plus you have named politicians that were in power before the "Ministerial Code" was put in place - (which was if memory serves me right the policy of Cameron and Clegg) perhaps the politicians you mentioned were the reason for having a ministerial code in the first place?

I also think we are at best getting what she actually did through the government's spin and that sounds bad enough. If it is true that someone attempted suicide because of how she treated them then it is well beyond any "bullying" I've had to deal with over the last 30 years or so across multiple large international companies and I've had to deal with a lot of these types of complaints over the years.

(Bullying in quotes not to downplay it but to indicate in that past such behaviour would not have been classed as bullying but as harassment/intimidation/sexism or some such variant as bullying as a classification on its own is quite new.)
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