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Old 24th September 2020, 03:18 AM   #81
Darat
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
They certainly could be.

If a binman goes online and says all Muslims are terrorists then I would say they may have committed a crime but not a sackable offence - their bigoted views on Muslims has no impact on their ability to pick up bins.

If a cancer doctor goes online and says chemotherapy is a con and that the best treatment for cancer is a mixture of prayer, homeopathy then he may have committed a sackable offence but not a crime. If he goes on to say 'and daily application of his special CancerAway2000 device... only £79.99' then he may have committed both.

A teacher going online to criticise government policy on teaching is probably doing neither...a teacher going online to rant about how LGBTQ+ people are sinners and aberrations creates a problem because they may well have LGBTQ+ people in their class. So yes that's a sackable offence.

in this case it seems that the person in question was a lot closer to the last of those examples
It isn't - the law is quite clear that you can't sack someone for their "philosophical beliefs" as defined by the Equality act. If you tried to use those beliefs or bring them into a class about relationships you could be sacked.
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Old 24th September 2020, 03:19 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The school policy was to follow the government policy - you criticise one, you criticize them both.
I'm not sure that is correct but i think it focuses on the wrong aspect. The problem she has is that she is at least indirectly saying that gay marriage is illegitimate, that not all relationships are equal and that transgender people are somehow not legitimate either. In public. Where pupils and parents can see it.

if one of her pupils happens to be or have a transgender family member how are they supposed to feel being taught by this person? It's simply not compatible with teaching to express these views in public in such a way.

I think she has 2 possible defences.

1. I didn't directly say it directly, only opposed the policy. Not sure what the law is on that one but ethically its BS

2. It doesn't amount to gross misconduct... she might have an argument on that front, depends what is in her contract.
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Old 24th September 2020, 03:30 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Your description of the article is misleading:



The tribunal has made no finding, and the quote is not "from the tribunal" but from a submission to the tribunal.
If only I'd said that it was what the tribunal said...But I didn't...I said it was from that...legal setting, the employment tribunal. The term which covers the overall hearings, as well as the sitting body.

Please nit-pick accurately.
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Old 24th September 2020, 03:35 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It isn't - the law is quite clear that you can't sack someone for their "philosophical beliefs" as defined by the Equality act. If you tried to use those beliefs or bring them into a class about relationships you could be sacked.
I'm not sure I agree on that one 100%, but you are right in what you say that it is protected and I had missed that aspect.

Where I would differ is that by putting them on social media I believe you are effectively bringing them into the classroom because your students can see them.

The closest case example I could find was one where unfair dismissal was upheld because a teacher told one of their students that their same-sex marriage wasn't ok with God... but I think there are differences there in that it was an adult student in a 1-1 conversation.

I personally also think it's BS that 'philosophical beliefs' are protected in the case where it's being used as an excuse to discriminate against other protected groups although I do think that there is scope for a court to apply common sense here because part of the definition of a philosophical belief is "The belief must be worthy of respect in a democratic society, not be incompatible with human dignity, and not conflict with the fundamental rights of others".
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Old 24th September 2020, 03:38 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
A teacher going online to criticise government policy on teaching is probably doing neither...a teacher going online to rant about how LGBTQ+ people are sinners and aberrations creates a problem because they may well have LGBTQ+ people in their class. So yes that's a sackable offence.

in this case it seems that the person in question was a lot closer to the last of those examples
Except that this aide never said anything of the sort in her facebook posts. At worst, a reader might infer that she believes that some relationships are not as valid and 'normal' as others and that same sex marriages are not the same as traditional marriages (hardly surprising since she is arguing about freedom to practise as a Christian).
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Old 24th September 2020, 03:45 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Except that this aide never said anything of the sort in her facebook posts. At worst, a reader might infer that she believes that some relationships are not as valid and 'normal' as others and that same sex marriages are not the same as traditional marriages (hardly surprising since she is arguing about freedom to practise as a Christian).
To be clear... I didn't mean to say that she did. I was making a more extreme example and then saying that this case is close enough to that to justify a sacking.

It's pretty clear what she believes (even if it is legally arguable) and I don't think expressing those beliefs on social media is compatible with being a good teacher of kids.

She might well worm her way out of the dismissal but I wouldn't want her teaching my kids.
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Old 24th September 2020, 03:49 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I was making a more extreme example and then saying that this case is close enough to that to justify a sacking.
ie false equivalence.
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Old 24th September 2020, 03:50 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Is that all you've got... the typical response from one incapable of refuting a claim?
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Old 24th September 2020, 03:50 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Except that this aide never said anything of the sort in her facebook posts. At worst, a reader might infer that she believes that some relationships are not as valid and 'normal' as others and that same sex marriages are not the same as traditional marriages (hardly surprising since she is arguing about freedom to practise as a Christian).
You forgot to mention that she also does not "believe" in gender fluidity.
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Old 24th September 2020, 03:53 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Huh, I did not know this verse existed.

Nor do a lot of Christians, apparently.
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Old 24th September 2020, 04:10 AM   #91
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https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...tribunal-hears

"A secondary school headteacher has denied that a member of staff was suspended because she was a Christian who raised concerns about teaching young children about LGBTQ+ relationships, an tribunal has heard.

Evans told the employment tribunal his priority after receiving the complaint was to uphold “confidence” in the school.

He said: “It was not because of the beliefs. These posts have been shared and apparently endorsed and my concern was that might lead to a loss of confidence in the school.”
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Old 24th September 2020, 04:13 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
You forgot to mention that she also does not "believe" in gender fluidity.
It's the usual assumption that the pigeon holes we insist on putting everything in, in order to simplify reality for our tiny minds, are real. Nature doesn't give a toss about our nice neat pigeon holes, whether they're for species, genders or anything else. In reality everything blends into everything else, there are no sharp boundaries.
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Old 24th September 2020, 04:13 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...tribunal-hears

"A secondary school headteacher has denied that a member of staff was suspended because she was a Christian who raised concerns about teaching young children about LGBTQ+ relationships, an tribunal has heard.

Evans told the employment tribunal his priority after receiving the complaint was to uphold “confidence” in the school.

He said: “It was not because of the beliefs. These posts have been shared and apparently endorsed and my concern was that might lead to a loss of confidence in the school.”
If that is sum total of the evidence/reasons then the school screwed up and unfairly dismissed her.
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Old 24th September 2020, 04:27 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
If only I'd said that it was what the tribunal said...But I didn't...I said it was from that...legal setting, the employment tribunal. The term which covers the overall hearings, as well as the sitting body.

Please nit-pick accurately.
People can read what you posted. It was misleading, and I’ll leave it for others to decide if it was deliberate or not.

It’s exactly like saying “from the Supreme Court” and quoting a defence lawyer (without saying it was a defence lawyer) “Mr Big is innocent”.

Dodge noted though. It’s not a good one at all.
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Old 24th September 2020, 04:30 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
You forgot to mention that she also does not "believe" in gender fluidity.
Er, is this lack of belief sackable?
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Old 24th September 2020, 04:51 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Er, is this lack of belief sackable?
Er, do you not find it massively offensive that someone tries to support their argument by stating that they don't believe in groups of people who clearly exist. "Not believing" in trans people is close to "Not believing" in homosexual people.

They exist, and a lot of them suffer from this worthless "not believing" bs.

So, "not believing" despite the fact that they clearly exist is of course sackable.

There are countries (mine for example) where you get punished by law if you publicly "don't believe" in the Holocaust.

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Old 24th September 2020, 04:54 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Er, do you not find it massively offensive that someone tries to support their argument by stating that they don't believe in groups of people who clearly exist. "Not believing" in trans people is close to "Not believing" in homosexual people.

They exist, and a lot of them suffer from this worthless "not believing" bs.

So, "not believing" despite the fact that they clearly exist is of course sackable.

There are countries (mine for example) where you get punished by law if you publicly "don't believe" in the Holocaust.
Where? In the UK?
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Old 24th September 2020, 05:00 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Where? In the UK?
No, in my personal opinion. Now back to you where you will explain to me that my personal opinion means nothing but the personal opinion of a bible thumping **** should be held in the highest regard.

So, in summary: Don't talk **** about LGBTQ+ people in public and you won't lose your job.
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Old 24th September 2020, 05:10 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ie false equivalence.
i.e. no.
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Old 24th September 2020, 05:21 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
No, in my personal opinion. Now back to you where you will explain to me that my personal opinion means nothing but the personal opinion of a bible thumping **** should be held in the highest regard.
I never said it should. I’m an atheist so have no regard for bible bashers.

I think her sacking is problematic at the very least.
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Old 24th September 2020, 05:32 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I never said it should. I’m an atheist so have no regard for bible bashers.

I think her sacking is problematic at the very least.
Being sacked for being a hateful **** is problematic for you?
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Old 24th September 2020, 05:47 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
i.e. no.
I didn't want to say "lie" but you admitted that her facebook posts weren't sackable so you had to make up a "a more extreme example" to justify the sacking.
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Old 24th September 2020, 05:54 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Is that all you've got... the typical response from one incapable of refuting a claim?
Saying that schools follow a government directive as a matter of "policy" (as if they had a choice) is a claim that is too ridiculous to require refuting. DL is the kindest response you will get.
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Old 24th September 2020, 06:13 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Being sacked for being a hateful **** is problematic for you?
Actually, it's quite a problem, yes. Being sacked for being **** at your job is fine. Being sacked for being a hateful **** who nevertheless does their job effectively is most definitely not fine. It's not clear to me, from the limited information available, which category this case falls into.

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Old 24th September 2020, 06:27 AM   #105
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USAin here, we just had two people in our organization sacked for bullying people on the facebook.

Off topic as it doesn't apply to England, where you have more rights to a job than in good old USA.
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Old 24th September 2020, 06:30 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Being sacked for being a hateful **** is problematic for you?
Wow. Is being hateful towards Trump or Johnson and expressing that hate on social media sackable?

Look, I get and support laws against hate speech. We have them in Australia. But this expression of opposition to an education department policy on social media falls laughably short of hate speech.

As does your condemnation of someone who doesn't uncritically accept gender fluidity.

You can think her a hateful ****, as I do, but that doesn't justify her sacking. Voltaire (maybe not him) etc.
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Old 24th September 2020, 07:27 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Wow. Is being hateful towards Trump or Johnson and expressing that hate on social media sackable?
Did Trump claim that he does not "believe" in gender fluidity? If not, then your example is pretty worthless.

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Look, I get and support laws against hate speech. We have them in Australia. But this expression of opposition to an education department policy on social media falls laughably short of hate speech.

As does your condemnation of someone who doesn't uncritically accept gender fluidity.

Ah, here we go. Come on, please say it, gender fluid people are just attention whores and should not be taken seriously. Same for "SJWs"

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Old 24th September 2020, 01:03 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Actually, it's quite a problem, yes. Being sacked for being **** at your job is fine.
A school guidance counsellor who is openly an anti-LGBTQ+ bible-basher, publicly stirring up opposition to school policy IS being a **** at her job.

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Being sacked for being a hateful **** who nevertheless does their job effectively is most definitely not fine.
Would you be happy to have your school age kids counselled by a neo-Nazi, Holocaust denying white supremacist who publicly expresses their opinion that the school's policy of teaching racial harmony and diversity is wrong. How about a convicted paedophile who publicly expresses his opinion that adults having sex with young children is a normal, natural thing. After all, if they "do their job effectively" they're just fine... right?
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Old 24th September 2020, 01:45 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Saying that schools follow a government directive as a matter of "policy" (as if they had a choice) is a claim that is too ridiculous to require refuting. DL is the kindest response you will get.
Except of course, it isn't a claim, its a fact.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...shire-54285580

"In legal submissions, Debbie Grennan, representing the school, said it had a duty to be "inclusive to all staff and pupils".

Inclusivenes is the school's policy. There is no wiggle room or special exemption for bible-bashers. Any way you try to spin it or slice it, an employee publicly opposing that policy is committing misconduct.
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Old 24th September 2020, 02:29 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Wow. Is being hateful towards Trump or Johnson and expressing that hate on social media sackable?

Look, I get and support laws against hate speech. We have them in Australia. But this expression of opposition to an education department policy on social media falls laughably short of hate speech.

As does your condemnation of someone who doesn't uncritically accept gender fluidity

You can think her a hateful ****, as I do, but that doesn't justify her sacking. Voltaire (maybe not him) etc.
As to your first sentence: yes, in the USA certain political posts can get you sacked depending on the exact nature of the posts. In general it relates to how the post relates to your ability to perform your job by teaching and mentoring your students. Saying Trump ssupportors are POS and should be forced to fail out of school will get you fired in most places.

As to the highlight: absolutely! Teachers are likely to have trans-gender students and their job is to support and mentor them in the very best ways possible. Again, posts that indicate a teacher cannot do this or intends to not do this mean they cannot do their job. Indication or implication that they will not follow a school board policy on this means the same.

It is the same as if they expressed overt racism; they may have a “right” to be a racist as a individual but not a right to be a racist and teach students. Wrong job! They may have a right to claim they hate flying makes them but posting that is likely to get them fired as an airline pilot.
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Old 24th September 2020, 02:44 PM   #111
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To me it relates to empathy and the ability to accept others. To me you don’t have to believe in Judaism to accept that as a choice others might reasonably make. Imagine you are Jewish and you have a teacher who maintains Jews are sinners and Christ killers. How could that be acceptable? How would that make you feel? Wrong job!
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Old 24th September 2020, 02:57 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Did Trump claim that he does not "believe" in gender fluidity?

(Snip)

If not, gender fluid people are just attention whores and should not be taken seriously. Same for "SJWs"
GJWs = Gender Justice Warriors. People who feel their mission is to go through life and publicly tell off others whose own assessment of self disagrees with that of the GJW’s.
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Old 24th September 2020, 03:15 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
As to your first sentence: yes, in the USA certain political posts can get you sacked depending on the exact nature of the posts. In general it relates to how the post relates to your ability to perform your job by teaching and mentoring your students. Saying Trump ssupportors are POS and should be forced to fail out of school will get you fired in most places.

As to the highlight: absolutely! Teachers are likely to have trans-gender students and their job is to support and mentor them in the very best ways possible. Again, posts that indicate a teacher cannot do this or intends to not do this mean they cannot do their job. Indication or implication that they will not follow a school board policy on this means the same.

It is the same as if they expressed overt racism; they may have a “right” to be a racist as a individual but not a right to be a racist and teach students. Wrong job! They may have a right to claim they hate flying makes them but posting that is likely to get them fired as an airline pilot.
The person this thread is about is not a teacher.
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Old 24th September 2020, 03:20 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
As to your first sentence: yes, in the USA certain political posts can get you sacked depending on the exact nature of the posts. In general it relates to how the post relates to your ability to perform your job by teaching and mentoring your students. Saying Trump ssupportors are POS and should be forced to fail out of school will get you fired in most places.

As to the highlight: absolutely! Teachers are likely to have trans-gender students and their job is to support and mentor them in the very best ways possible. Again, posts that indicate a teacher cannot do this or intends to not do this mean they cannot do their job. Indication or implication that they will not follow a school board policy on this means the same.

It is the same as if they expressed overt racism; they may have a “right” to be a racist as a individual but not a right to be a racist and teach students. Wrong job! They may have a right to claim they hate flying makes them but posting that is likely to get them fired as an airline pilot.
As I stated earlier, its all about context. The right to express your opinion is not absolute, it is modified and restricted by circumstances.
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Old 24th September 2020, 03:23 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
The person this thread is about is not a teacher.
Correct, she is/was a guidance counselor... and that makes it even worse.

Children often confide to their guidance counselor things they would never confide to their teachers, or even their parents
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Old 24th September 2020, 03:26 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
The person this thread is about is not a teacher.
No hiding here! School assistants/guidance counselors are teachers by every practical definition of the word. My mom was one. My wife was one. My aunt was one. And I know the “other” side too. Many of my other family members were/are “officially” teachers.

As smartcooky points out being a guidance counselor makes this person’s views even worse! They are there to guide the students through school and through life. Their views impact the students in very real ways.

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Old 24th September 2020, 03:27 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Correct, she is/was a guidance counselor... and that makes it even worse.

Children often confide to their guidance counselor things they would never confide to their teachers, or even their parents
And? Is there any evidence she didn’t fulfil her obligations? Because if she didn’t, this thread would be full of examples.
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Old 24th September 2020, 03:28 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
No hiding here! School assistants are teachers by every practical definition of the word. My mom was one. My wife was one. In most systems here in the USA their title is “teaching assistant.” And I know the “other” side too. Many of my other family members were/are “officially” teachers.

School assistants play a key, day to day, up close and personal role in teaching students. They are not just pencil sharpeners or chalk board cleaners. Their views impact the students in very real ways.
Again, to you. Is there any evidence she didn’t fulfil her obligations?

Oh, I also don’t agree that teaching assistants are exactly the same as teachers.
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Old 24th September 2020, 03:36 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
And? Is there any evidence she didn’t fulfil her obligations? Because if she didn’t, this thread would be full of examples.
There is certainly evidence that she disagreed with carrying out her core duties... she provided plenty of evidence of that herself.

However, you want to wait until she emotionally screws up a few vulnerable children BEFORE you have her fired. Got it!
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Last edited by smartcooky; 24th September 2020 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 24th September 2020, 03:40 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Except that this aide never said anything of the sort in her facebook posts. At worst, a reader might infer that she believes that some relationships are not as valid and 'normal' as others and that same sex marriages are not the same as traditional marriages hardly surprising since she is arguing about freedom to practise as a Christian).
I think that it would be very hard to not conclude rather than just infer as much!

As to “practice” I think George Carlin joked that with all this practicing religious people would have gotten it down by now.

Last edited by Giordano; 24th September 2020 at 03:41 PM.
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