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Old 24th September 2020, 03:41 PM   #121
Darat
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
USAin here, we just had two people in our organization sacked for bullying people on the facebook.

Off topic as it doesn't apply to England, where you have more rights to a job than in good old USA.
That would probably be grounds for some action in the UK.
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Old 24th September 2020, 03:42 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
A school guidance counsellor who is openly an anti-LGBTQ+ bible-basher, publicly stirring up opposition to school policy IS being a **** at her job.



Would you be happy to have your school age kids counselled by a neo-Nazi, Holocaust denying white supremacist who publicly expresses their opinion that the school's policy of teaching racial harmony and diversity is wrong. How about a convicted paedophile who publicly expresses his opinion that adults having sex with young children is a normal, natural thing. After all, if they "do their job effectively" they're just fine... right?
The convicted paedophile couldn't have been hired in the first place.
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Old 24th September 2020, 03:42 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Again, to you. Is there any evidence she didnít fulfil her obligations?

Oh, I also donít agree that teaching assistants are exactly the same as teachers.
I never said they are exactly the same any more than co-pilots are exactly the same as pilots,
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Old 24th September 2020, 03:43 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
OK, you want to wait until she emotionally screws up a few vulnerable children BEFORE you have her fired.

Got it!
You are better than this. You canít be seriously suggesting that people be punished for things they might do.

The only reason I raised the issue about whether she has been doing her job is that this thread is full of assumptions about how dangerous she is. Iím questioning these assumptions.
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Old 24th September 2020, 03:44 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I never said they are exactly the same any more than co-pilots are exactly the same as pilots,
And evidence of her not doing her job?
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Old 24th September 2020, 04:04 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
You are better than this. You can’t be seriously suggesting that people be punished for things they might do.
I'm suggesting that people who clearly have an agenda that runs counter to the agenda they have contracted for, should have their contract terminated before they can act against those they have contracted to.

Going back to Giordano's airline pilot example, if you had a pilot who publicly stated that he was going to hijack an airliner and fly it to North Korea, would you advocate waiting until he actually did it before firing him from the airline?
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Old 24th September 2020, 04:16 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
And evidence of her not doing her job?
Its not just about that. Its also about whether or not she can be trusted to do her job.

These are some of her statements

Quote:
"As a Christian, I believe it is morally necessary to speak out in defence of the Bible truth when false and harmful doctrines are being promoted."
Quote:
"God created mankind as 'male and female' and what He has created is good". "He does not make mistakes.
Quote:
"I am aware that same-sex marriages are now recognised under UK law, but I believe that is contrary to God's law - which only recognises marriages between one man and one woman"
She also shared links to anti LGBTQ+ articles

A person making these statements and sharing such information publicly is not one I would trust to give unbiased guidance to LGBTQ+ students.
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Old 24th September 2020, 04:41 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The convicted paedophile couldn't have been hired in the first place.
Well that depends on the school doing its due diligence:

https://www.theeducatoronline.com/k1...-checks/197378

"Knox Grammar School failed to conduct reference checks for a teacher who was later jailed for child abuses.

Craig Treloar, a resident master at Knox Grammar, told the Royal Commission that he was allowed to keep his job even after confessing to showing hard core pornography to young students.

The videos shown to the young boys reportedly featured paedophilia, bestiality and homosexual acts. "
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Old 24th September 2020, 05:33 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The convicted paedophile couldn't have been hired in the first place.
Ahem!

Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Well that depends on the school doing its due diligence:

https://www.theeducatoronline.com/k1...-checks/197378
Oops!

*****

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The convicted paedophile couldn't have been hired in the first place.
Irrelevant. What if the teacher was not a convicted paedophile, but nonetheless was found to be publicly expressing his opinion that adults having sex with young children is a normal, natural thing. Would you be fine with having this person as a guidance counselor for your children?
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Old 24th September 2020, 06:31 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Its not just about that. Its also about whether or not she can be trusted to do her job.

These are some of her statements







She also shared links to anti LGBTQ+ articles

A person making these statements and sharing such information publicly is not one I would trust to give unbiased guidance to LGBTQ+ students.
So not only do you not have evidence, you are drawing a conclusion based only on her religious beliefs. Not terribly convincing. I know there are a lot of teachers who hold views I’m not happy with. It doesn’t necessarily make them bad teachers.

Would you sack each Christian teacher who shares her views? I guess that you would not trust them even without any evidence of wrong doing, so why not?
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Old 24th September 2020, 07:19 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
So not only do you not have evidence, you are drawing a conclusion based only on her religious beliefs. Not terribly convincing. I know there are a lot of teachers who hold views I’m not happy with. It doesn’t necessarily make them bad teachers.

Would you sack each Christian teacher who shares her views? I guess that you would not trust them even without any evidence of wrong doing, so why not?
I know many Christians who have much, much more accepting views than this woman. Including the Pope!

And again it depends on the views expressed. This woman indicates that her faith insists she not accept school policy and speak out. Saying I disagree with the policy in concept but will make every effort to not communicate this to the students and I willfulfill my responsibility to support my students fully might be a little different if clearly sincere. But it would take an awful lot to convince me and she isn’t even trying much.

Again imagine you are a black student and a guidance councilor posts that they think black people are stupid trash incapable of any career but ditch digging. Convincing me that they would provide me with the same advice as a white student would be a long row to hoe, right
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Old 24th September 2020, 07:41 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
So not only do you not have evidence...
She provided all the evidence I need.

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
you are drawing a conclusion based only on her religious beliefs.
No. I am basing my conclusions, not on what she believes, but on

WHAT SHE HAS ACTUALLY SAID !!

Do you get it yet?
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Would you sack each Christian teacher who shares her views? I guess that you would not trust them even without any evidence of wrong doing, so why not?
I would sack any teacher who, after having signed a contract not to publicly share views that run counter to the policy of my school, then goes right out and breaches that contract by sharing those very same views. It does not matter whether those views are religious or secular. You breach your contract, you're toast!!
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Old 24th September 2020, 08:24 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
She provided all the evidence I need.



No. I am basing my conclusions, not on what she believes, but on

WHAT SHE HAS ACTUALLY SAID !!

Do you get it yet?


I would sack any teacher who, after having signed a contract not to publicly share views that run counter to the policy of my school, then goes right out and breaches that contract by sharing those very same views. It does not matter whether those views are religious or secular. You breach your contract, you're toast!!
Let's see what the tribunal says.
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Old 24th September 2020, 08:48 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Let's see what the tribunal says.
This is the first thing you have posted in this thread that makes sense.
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Old 24th September 2020, 11:21 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Let's see what the tribunal says.

Itís thinking about it: Judgement reserved in Christian school worker's LGBT lessons tribunal
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Old 25th September 2020, 12:23 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
So hardly a slam dunk.
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Old 25th September 2020, 12:51 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
From that article it appears that the "No Outsiders" programme is what this "pastoral assistant" is objecting to so I googled it and found this useful article:

https://www.secularism.org.uk/opinio...e-and-equality

It's difficult to see how anyone who holds her views could keep to it as she counsels all the children in her care. What she describes as "brainwashing" is surely part of her job. So I can certainly understand the concern.
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Old 25th September 2020, 01:16 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
A school guidance counsellor who is openly an anti-LGBTQ+ bible-basher, publicly stirring up opposition to school policy IS being a **** at her job.
If she's expressing any opinions like that in the classroom, then yes, she is. If she's keeping her opinions to herself at work but is expressing those opinions privately in a way that lets her be identified as the same person who's doing the job, then probably she is. What's not clear to me is whether the latter is the case or not.

Dave
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Old 25th September 2020, 01:54 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
If she's expressing any opinions like that in the classroom, then yes, she is. If she's keeping her opinions to herself at work but is expressing those opinions privately in a way that lets her be identified as the same person who's doing the job, then probably she is. What's not clear to me is whether the latter is the case or not.

Dave
Then let me confirm the latter for you. Higgs posted in a Facebook page under her maiden name, using a profile that made it easy see who she was. On a side note, it was also found during the investigation that she had used her official school email account for personal use.

Higgs was dismissed for:
"illegal discrimination,
"serious inappropriate use of social media",
"online comments that could bring the school into disrepute and damage the reputation of the school."
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Old 25th September 2020, 02:55 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I didn't want to say "lie" but you admitted that her facebook posts weren't sackable so you had to make up a "a more extreme example" to justify the sacking.
I did no such thing. I don't want to say you have reading comprehension issues but they have certainly failed you this time.

I set out a spectrum of situations showing that context matters. And then suggested that her Facebook posts were close enough to one end of the spectrum that I personally found them sackable.
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Old 25th September 2020, 03:02 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Then let me confirm the latter for you. Higgs posted in a Facebook page under her maiden name, using a profile that made it easy see who she was. On a side note, it was also found during the investigation that she had used her official school email account for personal use.

Higgs was dismissed for:
"illegal discrimination,
"serious inappropriate use of social media",
"online comments that could bring the school into disrepute and damage the reputation of the school."
In fairness everyone uses their work email accounts for personal use. That is the kind of BS thing that get's dragged up when they are looking for a reason to sack someone. Unless she was using it to send kiddy porn, conduct a ponzi scheme or harassing people with it then it shouldn't matter one jot.
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Old 25th September 2020, 03:09 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Higgs posted in a Facebook page under her maiden name, using a profile that made it easy see who she was.
She posted under a different name to the one she used for work, then. What about the profile "made it easy to see who she was"?

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Higgs was dismissed for:
"illegal discrimination,
"serious inappropriate use of social media",
"online comments that could bring the school into disrepute and damage the reputation of the school."
And it's for the employment tribunal to decide whether these were (a) correctly stated and (b) appropriate causes for dismissal.

I'm not sad that she isn't working in a classroom any more; I think she was probably a disaster waiting to happen. But it's important to dot all the i's and cross all the t's, otherwise fundamentalist Christian activists will make it look like they have a genuine argument.

Dave
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Old 25th September 2020, 03:16 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
In fairness everyone uses their work email accounts for personal use. That is the kind of BS thing that get's dragged up when they are looking for a reason to sack someone. Unless she was using it to send kiddy porn, conduct a ponzi scheme or harassing people with it then it shouldn't matter one jot.
Something we agree on.
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Old 25th September 2020, 03:21 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
So hardly a slam dunk.

I think it was likely that it would be a reserved judgment given the media attention.
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Old 25th September 2020, 03:26 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Higgs was dismissed for:
"illegal discrimination,
"serious inappropriate use of social media",
"online comments that could bring the school into disrepute and damage the reputation of the school."
In that case she should be reinstated since none of that is true.
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Old 25th September 2020, 03:40 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
In that case she should be reinstated since none of that is true.
In your opinion.
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Old 25th September 2020, 04:47 AM   #147
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Higgs, like anyone else, is entitled to hold her personal religious beliefs; she is even entitled to express those beliefs. What she is not entitled to do is what she did - express those beliefs in a way that weaponizes them against others - especially vulnerable, protected classes of people.

Regardless of whether she wins or loses this case, she has lost already. No school will touch her - and good riddance. We don't need religious fundamentalist homophobic bigots anywhere near the education system, influencing young minds to believe in the crap she does, to become like her and her religion.
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Old 25th September 2020, 04:56 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
From that article it appears that the "No Outsiders" programme is what this "pastoral assistant" is objecting to so I googled it and found this useful article:

https://www.secularism.org.uk/opinio...e-and-equality

It's difficult to see how anyone who holds her views could keep to it as she counsels all the children in her care. What she describes as "brainwashing" is surely part of her job. So I can certainly understand the concern.
But that is a different matter. She can be assessed on whether she follows the programme or not during school. If she doesn't there is a disciplinary process that can be followed, and one of the end options is dismissal. The school would also have to show that it tried to find a reasonable accommodation before sacking.
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Old 25th September 2020, 04:59 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Ahem!



Oops!

*****



Irrelevant. What if the teacher was not a convicted paedophile, but nonetheless was found to be publicly expressing his opinion that adults having sex with young children is a normal, natural thing. Would you be fine with having this person as a guidance counselor for your children?
That's quite a different thing since that is advocating for something that is illegal so would definitely fall foul of a typical employment contract.

Can we not just try and deal with what this case is about?
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Old 25th September 2020, 05:02 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
In fairness everyone uses their work email accounts for personal use. That is the kind of BS thing that get's dragged up when they are looking for a reason to sack someone. Unless she was using it to send kiddy porn, conduct a ponzi scheme or harassing people with it then it shouldn't matter one jot.
Not in my experience, every company I've worked at (since the first one to have company email) it has always been very clear that work emails are not be used for personal matters.

Of course a company may not enforce that policy with everyone and therefore a case based on breach of company policy couldn't be used to single out an individual.
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Old 25th September 2020, 05:07 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That's quite a different thing since that is advocating for something that is illegal so would definitely fall foul of a typical employment contract.

Can we not just try and deal with what this case is about?
Gender fluid people probably have existed long before gender fluidity became a publicly discussed topic. Regarding this, stating that one "does not believe" absolutely deserves a sacking.

What would you do with a school counselor who publicly claims that they "don't believe" in homosexuals?
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Old 25th September 2020, 05:19 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Gender fluid people probably have existed long before gender fluidity became a publicly discussed topic. Regarding this, stating that one "does not believe" absolutely deserves a sacking.

What would you do with a school counselor who publicly claims that they "don't believe" in homosexuals?
Stating it anywhere?

No.
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Old 25th September 2020, 05:23 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Stating it anywhere?

No.
Why?
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Old 25th September 2020, 05:25 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
She posted under a different name to the one she used for work, then. What about the profile "made it easy to see who she was"?



And it's for the employment tribunal to decide whether these were (a) correctly stated and (b) appropriate causes for dismissal.

I'm not sad that she isn't working in a classroom any more; I think she was probably a disaster waiting to happen. But it's important to dot all the i's and cross all the t's, otherwise fundamentalist Christian activists will make it look like they have a genuine argument.

Dave
This is where I think we may find she has done more than the CLC has said. Because how did someone know to contact the school about this "anonymous" poster on Facebook? (I do hope she did not bear false witness to Facebook's T&Cs )

Personally I think we will hear that she was sending links and posts to people, which really changes the case if it was to fellow parents and staff.
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Old 25th September 2020, 05:29 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Personally I think we will hear that she was sending links and posts to people, which really changes the case if it was to fellow parents and staff.
This.

She also may have had a person in her friendslist who she considered to be supporting her "case" but then instantly sent the link to her ramblings to the school she worked at.
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Old 25th September 2020, 05:33 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Higgs, like anyone else, is entitled to hold her personal religious beliefs; she is even entitled to express those beliefs. What she is not entitled to do is what she did - express those beliefs in a way that weaponizes them against others - especially vulnerable, protected classes of people.

...snip...
It really isn't that straightforward. Sadly we allow many people to legally spew the most terrible hatred and abuse under the guise of religious belief. Whether we like it or not her views are "acceptable" for a Christian in terms of the Equality act so she falls under a "protected" class in regards to being discriminated against for her views.

This is an intersection of a few different rights for different people, which of course is why the CLC has taken the case up, this is an "agenda" case.

The tribunal has to follow the law and as I said at the moment there isn't evidence that she was rightly and legally dismissed for gross misconduct.

I am very curious as to where this case will end up. I can see if she loses and the CLC can find a way to appeal the decision it will go up the ladder of courts but if the school loses I suspect they will not appeal.
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Old 25th September 2020, 05:36 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Gender fluid people probably have existed long before gender fluidity became a publicly discussed topic. Regarding this, stating that one "does not believe" absolutely deserves a sacking.

What would you do with a school counselor who publicly claims that they "don't believe" in homosexuals?
Depends on their contract and how they express such a view whether it breaches their contract or legislation.
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Old 25th September 2020, 05:47 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That's quite a different thing since that is advocating for something that is illegal so would definitely fall foul of a typical employment contract.

Can we not just try and deal with what this case is about?
Discriminating against LGBTQ+ people is also illegal though. And she definitely seems to be advocating that.

Although as you mentioned previously that seems to be allowed as long as you couch it in the Bible.
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Old 25th September 2020, 05:50 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not in my experience, every company I've worked at (since the first one to have company email) it has always been very clear that work emails are not be used for personal matters.

Of course a company may not enforce that policy with everyone and therefore a case based on breach of company policy couldn't be used to single out an individual.
Yes it's always been a policy where I've worked too, but pretty much everyone breaks it. The same as how internet usage is to be only for work purposes but everyone spends their lunch breaks surfing ebay and facebook. Or work mobiles aren't to be used for personal calls but everyone uses them to phone home and tell them they will be late etc etc.

But nobody gets sacked for it unless its egregious.
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Old 25th September 2020, 05:52 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
This is where I think we may find she has done more than the CLC has said. Because how did someone know to contact the school about this "anonymous" poster on Facebook? (I do hope she did not bear false witness to Facebook's T&Cs )

Personally I think we will hear that she was sending links and posts to people, which really changes the case if it was to fellow parents and staff.
It wasn't anonymous was it? I thought it was just under a different name. It's entirely possible that she had parents if not students as Facebook friends or friends of friends who may stumble upon it.
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