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Old 26th September 2020, 03:08 AM   #201
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
You have a very naive view of employment contracts. They cannot include requirements which prohibit an employee from exercising their civil rights.

Well, they can, but they would not stand up to scrutiny by government authorities.

Can an employment contract require an employee of, say, a Catholic school, not to be an atheist and post on an atheist forum?

Yes

Quote:
Despite discrimination of grounds of religion and belief being unlawful, Equality Act exceptions allow schools with a religious character to require their teaching staff to adhere to a particular religion.
The National Secular Society has a campaign about this
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Old 26th September 2020, 03:16 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
No. I didn’t specify teaching staff, but even so you can “adhere to a particular religion” without actually practicing that religion, and schools can’t demand evidence of staff practicing that religion. How do I know? Because my proud atheist daughter taught in a Catholic school in West London.

So I challenge you to show me an employment contract which says “you can’t be an atheist”.
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Old 26th September 2020, 03:34 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
You have a very naive view of employment contracts.
No I don't.

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Well, they can, but they would not stand up to scrutiny by government authorities.


Earlier I posted the social media clause of the employment contract for my employees. It is a "cookie cutter" contract, taken directly from the sample contracts supplied by Employment NZ (a government agency) and adapted by my solicitor to fit the circumstances of my business. It is functionally identical to just about every other employments contract used by every business in NZ. Effectively, it is "pre approved" by the NZ government. It is fully enforceable. Post 69 - I suggest you read it.

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
They cannot include requirements which prohibit an employee from exercising their civil rights
You have a very naive view of what constitutes "civil rights"

Discriminating against a person or persons on the basis of race, ethnicity, colour, gender, gender identity, sex, or sexual orientation is not a civil right.

Violating your employer's policies is not a civil right

Bringing your employer's business into disrepute is not a civil right

Harming your employer's reputation or goodwill is not a civil right.

Employment contracts CAN AND DO restrict your ability to do any and all of the above.

You also have a very naive view of free speech.

Your free speech rights give you the right to say what you like, when you like, but it does NOT, repeat NOT give you the right to do so without consequences.





Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Can an employment contract require an employee of, say, a Catholic school, not to be an atheist and post on an atheist forum?
They can insist that the teacher follow the school curriculum, and fire them if they donlt, so, yes, they probably can
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Old 26th September 2020, 03:42 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No I don't.





Earlier I posted the social media clause of the employment contract for my employees. It is a "cookie cutter" contract, taken directly from the sample contracts supplied by Employment NZ (a government agency) and adapted by my solicitor to fit the circumstances of my business. It is functionally identical to just about every other employments contract used by every business in NZ. Effectively, it is "pre approved" by the NZ government. It is fully enforceable. Post 69 - I suggest you read it.



You have a very naive view of what constitutes "civil rights"

Discriminating against a person or persons on the basis of race, ethnicity, colour, gender, gender identity, sex, or sexual orientation is not a civil right.

Violating your employer's policies is not a civil right

Bringing your employer's business into disrepute is not a civil right

Harming your employer's reputation or goodwill is not a civil right.

Employment contracts CAN AND DO restrict your ability to do any and all of the above.

You also have a very naive view of free speech.

Your free speech rights give you the right to say what you like, when you like, but it does NOT, repeat NOT give you the right to do so without consequences.







They can insist that the teacher follow the school curriculum, and fire them if they donlt, so, yes, they probably can
To follow a religion and believe in its tenets is a right.

You can’t show me how this woman failed in her duty and all I’ve seen is that she holds strong religious beliefs.

To your final point, you know not all teachers teach religious instruction, right? And that teachers are perfectly capable of faithfully teaching something they don’t believe in.
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Old 26th September 2020, 03:43 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
In which she has evangelised her bigoted veiw of LGBTQ+, against the policy of her school.
You are still "reading" something into a facebook post that isn't there. It's not surprising. If you didn't change the contents of the post you wouldn't have a case.
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Old 26th September 2020, 03:49 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You are still "reading" something into a facebook post that isn't there. It's not surprising. If you didn't change the contents of the post you wouldn't have a case.
Relax, she can just pray to skydaddy who surely will make things right, right? Right? Right?
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Old 26th September 2020, 03:54 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Relax, she can just pray to skydaddy who surely will make things right, right? Right? Right?
Is she now denied the right to pray?
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Old 26th September 2020, 04:05 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Is she now denied the right to pray?
No, that's your strawman. Relax please.
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Old 26th September 2020, 04:20 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Someone knew who she really was on that Facebook page, since they reported her to the school for what she said. Had that not been the case, none of this would have happened.

For Archie Gemmill Goal to point out this obvious fact isn't "desperation" (but calling him out as desperate probably is!)
Fairford is less than 10 miles from me and has a population of 3000 people. From experience, everyone knows everyone in these kind of places. It's nigh on impossible if she was using this Facebook account on a regular basis that she wouldn't have friends who were parents at the school or friends of friends who were parents at the school. That's before we even consider that she might have been actively promoting the message. A lot of these little towns will have their own community Facebook groups and she may well have posted to one of those.

Ethically I don't think she has a leg to stand on, legally I think Darat has probably hit the nail on the head that she might get away with arguing that her bigotry is legally protected.
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Old 26th September 2020, 04:23 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
They can insist that the teacher follow the school curriculum, and fire them if they donlt, so, yes, they probably can
I started a PGCE in 2002 and did my first teacher training session at a Catholic school. Every lesson had to start with a prayer, and the staff were encouraged to incorporate Christian teachings into every aspect of their teaching. The inset day whilst I was there started with Mass, and although I was given permission not to attend it was clearly the first such exception that had been granted.

I just had a look at the school prospectus (PDF), it doesn't look like much has changed. I couldn't see anything on the school's site specifically about employment requirements, but I can't imagine any non Catholic getting a teaching post there.

I dropped out of the PGCE, partly because I couldn't stand the thought of going back there. I particularly remember, with real horror, a school assembly in which the headmaster assured the children that each one of them had a guardian angel watching over them, and if a stranger offered to help them he might well be that guardian angel. This was just a few weeks after the Soham murders.
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Old 26th September 2020, 04:31 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I started a PGCE in 2002 and did my first teacher training session at a Catholic school. Every lesson had to start with a prayer, and the staff were encouraged to incorporate Christian teachings into every aspect of their teaching. The inset day whilst I was there started with Mass, and although I was given permission not to attend it was clearly the first such exception that had been granted.

I just had a look at the school prospectus (PDF), it doesn't look like much has changed. I couldn't see anything on the school's site specifically about employment requirements, but p

I dropped out of the PGCE, partly because I couldn't stand the thought of going back there. I particularly remember, with real horror, a school assembly in which the headmaster assured the children that each one of them had a guardian angel watching over them, and if a stranger offered to help them he might well be that guardian angel. This was just a few weeks after the Soham murders.
Did you not see my post about my atheist daughter getting a teaching job at a Catholic school in London? My equally atheist son got a job in an elite Catholic college in Melbourne.

I don’t know if things have changed much in London, but when my daughter got the job there was a teacher shortage and schools would kill for Australian teachers. She had a choice of four jobs but chose the toughest school, because that’s what she’s like.
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Old 26th September 2020, 04:37 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Did you not see my post about my atheist daughter getting a teaching job at a Catholic school in London?
I did. That's why I thought it worth mentioning my own experience, which strongly suggests not all Catholic schools are so welcoming of atheists.
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Old 26th September 2020, 04:39 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I did. That's why I thought it worth mentioning my own experience, which strongly suggests not all Catholic schools are so welcoming of atheists.
Okay, fair enough.
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Old 26th September 2020, 04:44 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Fairford is less than 10 miles from me and has a population of 3000 people. From experience, everyone knows everyone in these kind of places. It's nigh on impossible if she was using this Facebook account on a regular basis that she wouldn't have friends who were parents at the school or friends of friends who were parents at the school. That's before we even consider that she might have been actively promoting the message. A lot of these little towns will have their own community Facebook groups and she may well have posted to one of those.

Ethically I don't think she has a leg to stand on, legally I think Darat has probably hit the nail on the head that she might get away with arguing that her bigotry is legally protected.
Well, as I said earlier, even if she technically wins this case, she still loses. After all the publicity over this case, I seriously doubt any school would risk employing her. That would be a good thing IMO
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Old 26th September 2020, 04:53 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Well, as I said earlier, even if she technically wins this case, she still loses. After all the publicity over this case, I seriously doubt any school would risk employing her. That would be a good thing IMO
Yes, a good thing for vigilante “justice”.
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Old 26th September 2020, 06:07 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
No. I didn’t specify teaching staff, but even so you can “adhere to a particular religion” without actually practicing that religion, and schools can’t demand evidence of staff practicing that religion. How do I know? Because my proud atheist daughter taught in a Catholic school in West London.

So I challenge you to show me an employment contract which says “you can’t be an atheist”.
No, you asked "Can an employment contract require an employee of, say, a Catholic school, not to be an atheist and post on an atheist forum?" and I gave a reference (second hand admittedly but it was the first result on a quick google as I thought you were asking a genuine question not playing silly games) to an exemption to the equality legislation that allows a school the option of a religious requirement for some employees, if they choose to exercise that right. All your daughter's example proves is that it isn't obligatory for them to utilise or enforce it, which I never claimed. As to providing you with an employment contract, really I don't care enough to play 'Chase Your Goalposts'.
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Old 26th September 2020, 06:12 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
No, you asked "Can an employment contract require an employee of, say, a Catholic school, not to be an atheist and post on an atheist forum?" and I gave a reference (second hand admittedly but it was the first result on a quick google as I thought you were asking a genuine question not playing silly games) to an exemption to the equality legislation that allows a school the option of a religious requirement for some employees, if they choose to exercise that right. All your daughter's example proves is that it isn't obligatory for them to utilise or enforce it, which I never claimed. As to providing you with an employment contract, really I don't care enough to play 'Chase Your Goalposts'.
No you didn’t. What you posted didn’t refer to atheism, which I specifically mentioned.
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Old 26th September 2020, 06:35 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
No you didn’t. What you posted didn’t refer to atheism, which I specifically mentioned.
The legislation says that the school can require you to be a member of a specific faith. Silly games are silly.
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Old 26th September 2020, 07:13 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
The legislation says that the school can require you to be a member of a specific faith. Silly games are silly.
No it bloody doesn't. You have nowhere posted anything about being required to be of a specific faith.

Precision is important in issues like this. It talks about a "religious test" and "conduct which is 'incompatible with the precepts of the school's religion."

All it needs is for the staff member to say, "yeah, whatever", it does not require a baptism certificate.
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Old 26th September 2020, 07:33 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yes.
I am sorry. Usually I find your posts reasonable, even if I disagree with them. But I have no idea how to deal with this concept!

BTW I am not Black, that was a hypothetical to make what I thought was a more universally recognizable argument vs. trans-sexual. So I am shocked even that obvious an argument did not invoke an immediate recognition of the problem:

I have no way of peering into someone’s brain. My guidance counselor has stated elsewhere that people “like me” are dumb and not suited for anything but menial work. How can I trust her as she recommends the classes I should take, if I should apply to college or not, the career I should seek? These are individual customized pieces of advice! Sure, a recommendation of ditch digger if I was a straight A student would be an easy slam dunk evidence of discrimination. But what if she simply recommended against physics as a career and a second tier college instead of a very top one? What if she didn’t make an extra effort to help me that she might have made for a White student, such as a phone call to a possible employer? How could I possibly know?

In fact wouldn’t the reasonable assumption that I can’t trust her be enough to disqualify her as my counselor? In fact how does she know she is providing correct advice: her recommendations are likely to be underlaid subconsciously with her bias, just as any human being’s.

I think that a certain lack of empathy is a basis for people not seeing the inherent problems with having someone who dislikes trans-sexuals, or Blacks, or Asians, in charge of important aspects of their lives. I am not trans-sexual,or Black, or Asian, but there are people who dislike what I am. If they feel strongly enough to have to state such on social media I feel like that trans-sexual, or Black, or Asian person: I don’t need further proof to not have that person in charge of any important part of my life.
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Old 26th September 2020, 07:39 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I am sorry. Usually I find your posts reasonable, even if I disagree with them. But I have no idea how to deal with this concept!

BTW I am not Black, that was a hypothetical to make what I thought was a more universally recognizable argument vs. trans-sexual. So I am shocked even that obvious an argument did not invoke an immediate recognition of the problem:

I have no way of peering into someone’s brain. My guidance counselor has stated elsewhere that people “like me” are dumb and not suited for anything but menial work. How can I trust her as she recommends the classes I should take, if I should apply to college or not, the career I should seek? These are individual customized pieces of advice! Sure, a recommendation of ditch digger if I was a straight A student would be an easy slam dunk evidence of discrimination. But what if she simply recommended against physics as a career and a second tier college instead of a very top one? What if she didn’t make an extra effort to help me that she might have made for a White student, such as a phone call to a possible employer? How could I possibly know?

In fact wouldn’t the reasonable assumption that I can’t trust her be enough to disqualify her as my counselor? In fact how does she know she is providing correct advice: her recommendations are likely to be underlaid subconsciously with her bias, just as any human being’s.

I think that a certain lack of empathy is a basis for people not seeing the inherent problems with having someone who dislikes trans-sexuals, or Blacks, or Asians, in charge of important aspects of their lives. I am not trans-sexual,or Black, or Asian, but there are people who dislike what I am. If they feel strongly enough to have to state such on social media I feel like that trans-sexual, or Black, or Asian person: I don’t need further proof to not have that person in charge of any important part of my life.
Are you arguing what should be the case or what is the case currently? I think Darat is arguing the latter.
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Old 26th September 2020, 07:48 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Are you arguing what should be the case or what is the case currently? I think Darat is arguing the latter.
I am arguing what should be the case. My apologies if Darat was arguing the law in the UK, but my question focused on if a Black person should trust such a councilor, not if it was legal.
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Old 26th September 2020, 07:56 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I am arguing what should be the case. My apologies if Darat was arguing the law in the UK, but my question focused on if a Black person should trust such a councilor, not if it was legal.
I would agree with you. I don't think a black person should trust such a person or be forced to take career advice from them. I think their views are fundamentally incompatible with being in a position of trust with vulnerable people.

I think legally though you are on shakier ground.
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Old 26th September 2020, 08:02 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Precision is important in issues like this. It talks about a "religious test" and "conduct which is 'incompatible with the precepts of the school's religion."
I'm pretty sure that announcing you're an atheist and posting on an atheist forum could probably be construed as being incompatible with the precepts of some religion.
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Old 26th September 2020, 08:15 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I would agree with you. I don't think a black person should trust such a person or be forced to take career advice from them. I think their views are fundamentally incompatible with being in a position of trust with vulnerable people.

I think legally though you are on shakier ground.
Depends on the jurisdiction in the USA.
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Old 26th September 2020, 09:48 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
No it bloody doesn't. You have nowhere posted anything about being required to be of a specific faith.

Precision is important in issues like this. It talks about a "religious test" and "conduct which is 'incompatible with the precepts of the school's religion."

All it needs is for the staff member to say, "yeah, whatever", it does not require a baptism certificate.
The School Standards and Framework Act (1998) allows faith schools to select some of their teachers, promote & remunerate based on their religious opinions being in accordance with the school's religion or religious denomination and/or attending religious services in accordance with those tenents. Lying about a specifically required qualification during an application is going to be strong grounds for dismissal. It is of course up to individual schools how seriously they enforce this.

Oh, and as Matthew Best has already pointed out, openly declaring atheism is against the tenets of quite a few religions. I believe Catholics would consider declaring the non-existence of God a pretty serious matter.

Anyway, this is my last post on this. I thought I was giving a quick response to an honest question you were asking not getting into an argument about something you'd already made your mind up over. I don't care enough.
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Old 26th September 2020, 12:47 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I am sorry. Usually I find your posts reasonable, even if I disagree with them. But I have no idea how to deal with this concept!

BTW I am not Black, that was a hypothetical to make what I thought was a more universally recognizable argument vs. trans-sexual. So I am shocked even that obvious an argument did not invoke an immediate recognition of the problem:

I have no way of peering into someone’s brain. My guidance counselor has stated elsewhere that people “like me” are dumb and not suited for anything but menial work. How can I trust her as she recommends the classes I should take, if I should apply to college or not, the career I should seek? These are individual customized pieces of advice! Sure, a recommendation of ditch digger if I was a straight A student would be an easy slam dunk evidence of discrimination. But what if she simply recommended against physics as a career and a second tier college instead of a very top one? What if she didn’t make an extra effort to help me that she might have made for a White student, such as a phone call to a possible employer? How could I possibly know?

In fact wouldn’t the reasonable assumption that I can’t trust her be enough to disqualify her as my counselor? In fact how does she know she is providing correct advice: her recommendations are likely to be underlaid subconsciously with her bias, just as any human being’s.

I think that a certain lack of empathy is a basis for people not seeing the inherent problems with having someone who dislikes trans-sexuals, or Blacks, or Asians, in charge of important aspects of their lives. I am not trans-sexual,or Black, or Asian, but there are people who dislike what I am. If they feel strongly enough to have to state such on social media I feel like that trans-sexual, or Black, or Asian person: I don’t need further proof to not have that person in charge of any important part of my life.
Exactly!
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Old 26th September 2020, 02:12 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Non sequitur.

Discrimination against anyone in any employment setting is illegal.

Advocating paedophilia in any setting, including employment, is illegal.
Nope there are plenty of times when discrimination is 100% legal!
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Old 26th September 2020, 02:17 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Well, as I said earlier, even if she technically wins this case, she still loses. After all the publicity over this case, I seriously doubt any school would risk employing her. That would be a good thing IMO
How would a school know about this when they interviewed and made a call?
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Old 26th September 2020, 02:20 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I am arguing what should be the case. My apologies if Darat was arguing the law in the UK, but my question focused on if a Black person should trust such a councilor, not if it was legal.
I was answering it in terms of the law in the UK.
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Old 26th September 2020, 02:22 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Nope there are plenty of times when discrimination is 100% legal!
Cite examples please!
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Old 26th September 2020, 02:24 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How would a school know about this when they interviewed and made a call?
Err, they can read the news?
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Old 26th September 2020, 08:20 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Err, they can read the news?
And, very commonly these days, search for any of your social media traffic and review that.
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Old 26th September 2020, 08:48 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
And, very commonly these days, search for any of your social media traffic and review that.
Yes indeed!
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Old 26th September 2020, 10:17 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Cite examples please!
Acting roles, religious roles.
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Old 26th September 2020, 10:22 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
And, very commonly these days, search for any of your social media traffic and review that.
Very dodgy in the UK, employers are best not to do such searches, or gain explicit permission to do so with every single applicant.
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Old 26th September 2020, 11:22 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Cite examples please!
Keep in mind that there is such a thing as fair discrimination. If the job requires a particular skill, discriminating against applicants who don't have that skill is perfectly legal. If you're recruiting someone who you're going to be trusting with the keys to your safe, most people would consider rejecting applicants with convictions for theft to be fair discrimination. OTOH discriminating against all men for the latter job simply because there are more male thieves than female ones would be unfair, and illegal, discrimination. But even "no men need apply" is fair and legal if you're recruiting a wet nurse.
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Old 27th September 2020, 01:35 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Very dodgy in the UK, employers are best not to do such searches, or gain explicit permission to do so with every single applicant.
Wait, you're not allowed to check up on a potential employee's bona-fides. Really?

In recent times, I have checked out the Facebook and LinkedIn pages (if they have them) of every applicant. I have the right to know who I am employing, and I do not need anyone's permission to do so.
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Last edited by smartcooky; 27th September 2020 at 01:39 AM.
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Old 27th September 2020, 01:38 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Keep in mind that there is such a thing as fair discrimination.
C'mon Pixel, we were always talking about discrimination based on race, colour, sexual orientation and other things that are illegal to discriminate against. I require Darat to cite examples where discrimination against a protected class is legal.


Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Acting roles, religious roles.
Nope, this is untrue; its not discrimination, its hiring an actor based on a BFOQ (or GOQ in the UK)
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Last edited by smartcooky; 27th September 2020 at 01:49 AM.
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Old 27th September 2020, 05:13 AM   #240
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https://www.sterlingcheck.co.uk/blog...k-when-hiring/

"“HR departments can carry out social media checks on all applicants before they get to the interview stage, in order to build an idea of who they are as a person and what kind of employee they are likely to be,” remarks Emma O’Leary, legal advisor at Elas. “While this can help identify any potential areas of concern, vetting candidates in this way can also throw up some risks to you as an employer. If you discover that an applicant possesses one of the protected characteristics – for example, if they are disabled or of a particular race or sexual orientation – and that puts you off hiring them, the risk of a discrimination claim is real, should your vetting be exposed.”

The associated risks are based around making recruitment decisions with conscious or even sub-conscious bias, based on something that the hiring manager has seen on social media, she adds. “If that bias is against a particular protected characteristic, then it may well render the company liable to claims of discrimination without a candidate even being offered a job.”

Edit:

"You should also inform candidates that you may be conducting research on all applicants online prior to interview, and obtain their consent beforehand, so they are aware and can decide for themselves what they wish to have private or public on their social profiles.

“If a candidate has a social media profile, they have not created it for their employers – even if it is public and available in the public domain – and they have not necessarily given consent for it to be used as part of the employment process,” comments Bhavini Kalaria, managing director, London Law Practice. “So if an employer is considering using social media as part of their recruitment process, they should seek express permission so that candidates are aware of it.”

Last edited by RolandRat; 27th September 2020 at 05:16 AM.
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