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Old 5th November 2020, 05:39 PM   #1
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The De-Trumpification of America -- life after the Trump revolution

So it looks like Biden is going to win the election. I know nothing is decided, and that the GOP is attempting to sabotage the election. That's not up for discussion here -- for the purpose of this thread, we assume Biden takes office in January 2021.

So Trump has ruled America for four years. I don't need to list his evils. I don't need to get into how Trump supporters have failed to criticize him for what he's doing, and even chose to voted for him in great numbers this election.

It now seems Trump will be a one-term president. Come January, he will be a civilian, and his cult will no longer have him as president. This begs an important question:

What do we do with the trumpkins?

It's been a long time since I wrote a long, thought-out essay of a post on these forums. I'm sorry if it's a bit lengthy, feel free to just skim through it if it doesn't give you anything. But I have a lot of thoughts and getting them down on paper takes some space, so bear with me.

I suspect that when Trump leaves office, it will be as if a spell is broken. The Trump supporters went silent for a time after the midterm election. The same thing happened during the election America just had -- they surfaced when Biden appeared to be struggling, only to disappear again once it became clear Biden was set to win. I think what makes Trump so attractive to an alarming number of people is his ability to make them feel like they're part of this huge, powerful, for lack of a better word rebellious movement, which terrified the liberal elite. He's like that one tough, burly kid who certain other boys flock to because he makes them feel like they're part of this menacing "gang" when they roam the streets, or hang around at street corners.

Once he loses the election, he will be a "loser" in their eyes. The strongman will have lost that image. Even if he tweets all day long just as he did before, he'll be tweeting as a defeated man who faces bankrupcy, lawsuits, and charges. Even throughout 2020, his rallies drew fewer followers. I think the Trumpers will simply go quiet about him once he's out of office. I don't know if they will drop the whataboutism-centered control the conversation style of tackling critics, and it's possible they'll be just as bitter and unhappy about the way the country's going and how the elite is ignoring them (many with good reason), and they may be resentful if they subscribe to Trump's narrative about the Democrats stealing the election, but they'll go quiet as Trump supporters.

So. What do we do about them?

Firstly, the US has really seen two protest movements arise in anger the past four years -- the Trump supporters and the BLM-led protesters. Both arose because their very real issues weren't being listened to. The blacks saw themselves grow up with police brutality, institutionalised racism, and far less opportunity than the white people, and even as other US minorities. As Michelle Obama put it in her memoir, "you have to work twice as hard to get half as far" as an African-American. Meanwhile there's a class of low-income people, many of them white, who do not see the problems of their communities addressed, and even experience that they are not only ignored by "the elite", but that they are even looked down upon and ridiculed by the rest of the country. You know who I'm talking about. Rednecks. Hillbillies. Trailer trash. They are to be pitied and looked down upon, turned into an archetypical character to serve as the butt of jokes.

Both rose up in 2016. With the African-American community, their patience didn't truly run out until 2020, but they rose up. The trumpkins elected a president who they felt, sadly mistakenly, listened to them and cared about their plight. Someone who was just as corrupt as the rest of the establishment, but was at least aware of it and pledged to drain the swamp. Maybe that was even part of his appeal. That they believed it took a thief to catch a thief. The African-Americans, meanwhile, took to the streets in record numbers, not all of them peacefully.

What they have in common is a very real experience of growing up in a country with little social mobility, with far less opportunity than many others in the country of the same age, through no fault of their own. And they both rose up.

Now the Trump rebellion seems to have been struck down. The revolution is over. The leader, the face of the revolution, has been defeated. But maybe it isn't as much about whether the "trumpkins" will go away. Maybe the important part is their reasons for rising up certainly are not. And the sad part is, even as rebels, the Trump supporters were still ridiculed and looked down upon. That's not going to change now. The archetypical Trump supporter might end up the laughing stock of the nation for a while. Imagine how humiliating that must feel.

I think maybe the most important thing going forward is addressing these social issues. The need for sweeping police and justice system reforms. Racism on every level of society. The plight of those growing up less privilegued in America, be them black or white, or anything in-between. Future politicians must demonstrate that they respect, and care about, the people who feel they've been ignored by the elite for far too long. Because no matter how much you disagree with their methods, there's always reasons why people rise up.

I think Trump needs to be prosecuted for what he has done, even if doing so will be painful for the nation here and now, because the US is a free country which should not put up with corruption and evil, and letting Trump get off sets a very dangerous precedent for the next Trump lurking in the shadows. I also don't know if everyone who lost their friendships in 2016 should try to reconcile, because with some political views, it's just not possible to forgive and forget.

I do think, however, that it's important to reach out to the Trump supporters. When we discuss, for example, creationism or CTs here, we tend to actually address the CTers' and Creationists' arguments and claims, with facts and reason. I think that's also the way to go with Trump supporters. I myself have had a tendency to just decide they're all trolls, call them out on their whataboutisms and general unwillingness to have a proper discussion, and then to my ignore list, lamening that everyone else won't just do the same.

I think that was wrong of me. Sure, oftentimes they were just trolling, or trying to derail the thread. You've got characters like that in every sub-forum. But I think Trump supporters in general benefit more from people who disagree with them actually educating them with facts, and explaining to them how they're wrong. And, most of all, understanding the underlying reasons for their support of Trump, be them good or bad. A lot of them support pretty horrible things, and a lot of them come across as downright terrible people. But they, and their plight, has also been used, manipulated, and lied to by Trump.

I'm reminded of the video game Night in the Woods, a role-playing game where you're playing as Mae Borowski, a teen who has to drop out of college due to some serious personal issues, and returns to a town that's crumbling after the steel mill shut down. The whole game, which I wholeheartedly recommend to anyone into games with an emphasis on great storytelling, is an exploration of life without opportunity or hope, be it for yourself and your neighbours, or for the town you're growing up in. I won't spoil details here, but suffice to say it's a very authentic and heart-felt game with great insight.

My point is, I can't help but think that if they made a Night in the Woods 2, where Trump had been elected and the steel mill had been reopened, where the town thrived again and adults had hope for themselves and Possum Springs... if Mae might not, despite herself, be tempted to vote for him.

So. What are your thoughts on healing the divide, and moving on from the failed Trump revolution?

I also want to share these reflections by Beau of the Fifth Coloum, who has some good points:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz_z...theFifthColumn
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Old 5th November 2020, 05:58 PM   #2
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Qeustion is how many of the Trump voters are cult members, and how many are just "I will support anybody who has a R in front of his name.".
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Old 5th November 2020, 06:56 PM   #3
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The OP seems to be a textbook example of how not to heal the divide.

Maybe you could start by not using words like "trumpkins" and calling them "trailer trash".

This sort of arrogant sanctimony is precisely how we got a president Trump in the first place.
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Old 5th November 2020, 07:19 PM   #4
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Well in the most neutral terms we have to ask what is the Trump Supporters wanted. And I mean really wanted, not what they said they wanted, not what we were told they wanted, but an actual deep dive into what they want.

I've long described the populist rise of Donald Trump as nothing but a huge troll uprising and I still say there is a lot of truth in that statement, but that just describes the technique, not the motivation.

I've said that the rural areas have been left behind and were primed for this sort of charismatic jerkass to rally. I still say there is a lot of truth in that statement.

But the Trump supporters have also, probably not by accident, acting in such a way as to invite the "Oh you want to be civil now?" response to every call for civility from their side.

As with all trolls they are making sure the debate stays as buried in as many nested meta-debates about the debate as possible.

The closest thing to an answer I can give is we need some form of economic and social reform for the rural areas of the United States. Give them something to do, to strive for, to accomplish beyond "Hurry up and die off and be quiet while doing it."

But I don't know what that thing is, nor do I have full faith that the Trump Supporters aren't in full on "Burn it all down" mode with no way of being pulled back.

I'm sorry I don't have a clear, concise answer, but whatever answer there is I think is in there somewhere.
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Old 5th November 2020, 07:19 PM   #5
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US institutions should recover once Trump toadies are out, but there needs to be a lot of internal review to see who broke the law/rules to please the White House and fire them.
Biden will have a general goodwill from the bureaucracy, and might get a lot of suggestions how to harden the institutions against a Trump 2.0.
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Old 5th November 2020, 07:26 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Qeustion is how many of the Trump voters are cult members, and how many are just "I will support anybody who has a R in front of his name.".
Actually, the down ballot has not benefited from the high Biden vote. This is not common. While Biden is getting a pretty significant advantage of the popular vote, that hasn't translated into D increases in state representatives or House representatives where D's are losing ground. This was not predicted.

Looks like a material number of people that vote R but dislike Trump's abrasiveness voted for Biden but otherwise picked Rs.

Trump's mixed messages on C19 also resulted in a big split with R's much more likely to vote in person while D's were more likely to vote by mail. That effect was clearly understood by Trump as he has railed against counting any votes past poll closing time Nov. 3. No matter that they are postmarked on time. He's hoping SCOTUS will help him out (they won't) but mostly it's a strategy so he can continue to claim he really won long after Jan. 20. He sees this as helping his brand and possibly setting things up for 2024. Trump is all about image. His.
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Old 5th November 2020, 08:51 PM   #7
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It's really hard to say why people voted the way they did. The election polls were wildly inaccurate again, and most of the data on voting tendencies we're used to evaluating come from opinion polls using wildly inaccurate sampling methods.

I also think it's hard to figure out where the tens of millions of extra voters motivations lie. This was a lot of people that were inactive in politics 4 years ago. Who are they and what do they want?
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Old 5th November 2020, 09:13 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Maybe you could start by not using words like "trumpkins" and calling them "trailer trash".
Ouch. I guess I should've put those words in quotation marks like I seem to remember I planned to. I even actually planned to write something to the lines of "they even get called things like...". I'm sorry my meaning didn't carry, I see now that it's really easy to misinterpret.

I have used the term trumpkins a lot on these forums, but I was actually planning to put it in quotation marks in this post, too. Using it in the bold-faced header was obviously a bad idea, though. That should've been "Trump supporters".

I guess my excuse is I was writing a long post at the end of a long day, and maybe I was thinking too much about what to write, and not enough about how to write it.

I can't edit my OP anymore, so I just hope people will read this reply .
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Old 5th November 2020, 09:14 PM   #9
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Well they're not snowflakes so I'm assuming being called a trumpkin isn't going to bother them.

Unless...
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Old 5th November 2020, 09:29 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
I'm assuming being called a trumpkin isn't going to bother them.
It would, however, show them another example of the general rule that the other side simply can not be reasoned with and must not have anything substantive to say on actual issues.
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Old 5th November 2020, 09:32 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
It would, however, show them another example of the general rule that the other side simply can not be reasoned with and must not have anything substantive to say on actual issues.
it was just a joke buddy

They absolutely need to figure out what these people want and how to find some middle ground with them
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Old 5th November 2020, 09:51 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
It's really hard to say why people voted the way they did. The election polls were wildly inaccurate again, and most of the data on voting tendencies we're used to evaluating come from opinion polls using wildly inaccurate sampling methods.

I also think it's hard to figure out where the tens of millions of extra voters motivations lie. This was a lot of people that were inactive in politics 4 years ago. Who are they and what do they want?
Compared to 4 years ago, the adult population of the United States has only increased by roughly 8 million (249 to 257). The counting is not even finished yet, but already it appears that at least about 13 million more votes were cast than in 2016 (I'm only comparing votes cast for the Democratic and Republican nominees here; about 7 million votes were cast in 2016 for third party or independent candidates). So total voter turnout was likely significantly higher.

In many cases the reasons are not too hard to imagine. Trump managed to get some more people out to vote for him this time, but at the same time motivated even more people to vote against him. (Most Biden votes were votes against Trump more than votes for Biden, if you follow my meaning.)
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Old 5th November 2020, 10:01 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
In many cases the reasons are not too hard to imagine. Trump managed to get some more people out to vote for him this time, but at the same time motivated even more people to vote against him. (Most Biden votes were votes against Trump more than votes for Biden, if you follow my meaning.)
I know a lot of people showed up to vote against Trump. Biden also certainly got some former disillusioned Trump voters, but probably not in the numbers the pollsters expected.

Trump got an addional 7M votes, after filling in the hole the defectors left, which could potentially be millions nationwide. I think a more interesting question is who are these people that voted for Trump. How many new voters, first time voters, or Clinton Dems? I think that's an interesting question that nobody has the answer to yet.
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Old 5th November 2020, 10:09 PM   #14
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This thread should be in Social Issues & Current Events, not Politics.

It's natural to start out by looking at this in terms of politics, but it's really more of a (mass-) psychology question, which I'm less prepared to address. I haven't done much studying on, for example, how cult members get out of their cults, or how a whole cult might meet its end other than by death.

Another angle to approach the subject from from is the fact that the main difference between these people and others is fear. That's known from a handful of actual scientific studies; they experience fear more often and more intensely, so they're more motivated by it. But what can you do for somebody with excessive fear? And even if there's something that works for individuals, how can you scale it up to millions? I don't know.

They are (presuming Biden wins) in roughly the position that Nazis/Germans were in soon after WWII: defeated, and exposed as essentially suffering a destructive mental illness and thus needing to be kept down, but still human and thus unlikely to snap out of it immediately. How did Germany handle that?

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Old 5th November 2020, 10:19 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I've long described the populist rise of Donald Trump as nothing but a huge troll uprising and I still say there is a lot of truth in that statement, but that just describes the technique, not the motivation.
I think that is mostly true of the younger Trump voters, young white men in particular who don't have much of a stake beyond trolling the emasculated PC college campus SJWs.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I've said that the rural areas have been left behind and were primed for this sort of charismatic jerkass to rally. I still say there is a lot of truth in that statement.
...........

The closest thing to an answer I can give is we need some form of economic and social reform for the rural areas of the United States. Give them something to do, to strive for, to accomplish beyond "Hurry up and die off and be quiet while doing it."
Agreed.
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Old 5th November 2020, 10:19 PM   #16
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The following is based on my supposition of Trump supporters being mostly white and Christian.

Are Trumpers angry because they feel left behind? Then maybe they should compare their lot to that of minority communities, particularly black.

Are Trumpers angry because they feel religiously persecuted? Then maybe they should compare their lot to that of other people of faith, particularly Muslim.

What they really need to do is contemplate upon how it is that they themselves are the ones doing the kicking down. When they can own up to their own deplorable nature, then will I be in a conciliatory mood. Until then, that lot can pound salt--into their wounds. Because as sure as bears do no. 2 in the woods, when Trump 2.0 comes down the pike they'll back to worshiping their new Messiah.

And the same goes for the upper crust deplorables, for whom welfare-like tax cuts for themselves on the backs of the working class and to the detriment of the nation are deemed a good trade against spiralling national debt.

The whole lot of irredeemable (emphasizing this) deplorables need to suffer, or at least feel disappointment in the cessation of the succor derived from their enabler of vices and top swamp creature.


As to the Trump clan and those political and administrative fellow travellers, investigate, charge, prosecute, and jail, where appropriate. To do less after this unprecedented period of rampant grift and law breaking would be a dereliction of duty to the country.
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Old 5th November 2020, 10:20 PM   #17
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You can start by undoing the terrible legislation that Trump has enacted.

The New York AG, Letitia James is prepares a list of things Trump has done for Biden to target and undo...

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/202...tions-n1245358

Then you can continue on to start visiting his legal jeopardy on him... very ******* hard! James plans to do that too...

The Manhatten DA, Cyrus Vance is also gunning for him!
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/10/07/p...ing/index.html
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Old 5th November 2020, 10:27 PM   #18
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Sorry - your OP is a fail of monumental proportions.
Your use of name calling proves to me that your essay is nothing more than an exercise in virtue signalling. You want to pretend you are willing to discuss things in a respectful dialogue - but your obvious attitude of superiority exposes you.

Furthermore - you stated:
Quote:
The archetypical Trump supporter might end up the laughing stock of the nation for a while. Imagine how humiliating that must feel.
That also shows your unwillingness to recognize the people who supported Trump as being worthy of a respectful dialogue. How can you be a laughing stock of a nation if you are about 50% of that nation?
Your obvious glee at the thought of Trumpers being humiliated is a big fail if respectful dialogue is truly your goal.

As a Canadian I just sit back and watch as the Dems and the GOP supporters show themselves as nothing more than cheerleader sycophants with each side unwilling to give the other side an ounce of respect. Each claims to be on the side of angels. Donald Trump is the horrible result of such stupidity.
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Old 5th November 2020, 11:05 PM   #19
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A promising analysis of Trump supporters comes from a Jon Shields (and his wife).

Shields appears here with Glenn Loury:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


The most interesting part of the discussion is Shields' contention that Trump appeals to an "honor" culture that's still prevalent in the United States. It's easy to dismiss Cheeto Von Tweeto's supporters as racist, toothless deplorables, but one should try to appreciate where they're coming from. Small towns are dying, and, in spite of white privilege, it's not so easy for people to just move away.

If you're a member of the professional class, you might be able to feel at home in any large urban area. He gives the example of a professor upgrading their job from a prestigiuous university to Harvard (a more prestigiuous unviersity). But leaving a small community (rather than making it great again) welcomes "social death." Your town has streets named after family members; your ancestors might even be buried on your property. There's a connectedness that's mostly missing in anonymous city life.

Somebody analyzed country music and found that a lot of the songs have intergenerational connections. "I used to try to get with the farmer's daughter, but now I'm a daddy protecting my own daughter." There's also an unusual kind of pride: "I've been every where in the world, but nothing compares to the willow tree in my backyard." In other words, rootless cosmopolitans winning in global capitalism have trouble empathizing with more rural folks. There's also a politics of resentment (which is at the core of most identity politics).

I've heard farmers complain that they wake up at the ass crack of dawn to feed this country, but they don't enjoy the income and prestige of kids who play video games. The whole What Happened to Kansas thesis continually goes back to how rural people used to be quite socialist. Wealthy east-coast bankers got rich manipulating numbers.

One of the more interesting observations in the talk is that honor culture does not scale up effectively. Reputation might work in smaller, familial communities, but not so much when you're dealing with national politics. He gives some good examples. Obviously you should watch at 2x speed (because urban people talk faster than rural people).
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Old 5th November 2020, 11:05 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
Ouch. I guess I should've put those words in quotation marks like I seem to remember I planned to. I even actually planned to write something to the lines of "they even get called things like...". I'm sorry my meaning didn't carry, I see now that it's really easy to misinterpret.

I have used the term trumpkins a lot on these forums, but I was actually planning to put it in quotation marks in this post, too. Using it in the bold-faced header was obviously a bad idea, though. That should've been "Trump supporters".

I guess my excuse is I was writing a long post at the end of a long day, and maybe I was thinking too much about what to write, and not enough about how to write it.

I can't edit my OP anymore, so I just hope people will read this reply .
Sorry if I came across as harsh there, but I'm glad that you can see the issue.

Whether it's fair or not, I think the right has got a lot of political mileage by telling working class white people that the "liberal elites" look down on them
and think they are ignorant, backwards country bumpkins. And the sad thing is, that there's at least a grain of truth in that stereotype about liberals.

I do believe that polarization in the United States has reached critical levels, and it is necessary to find more common ground and reaffirm each other's humanity. I believe it is one reason why America has been faring so poorly in this pandemic.
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Old 5th November 2020, 11:23 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
What do we do with the trumpkins?
Once Trump is gone (in 4 or 8 ? years time) there won't be any 'trumkpkins', but the Deplorables will still be there. They predated Trump, and they will postdate him too.

Quote:
I suspect that when Trump leaves office, it will be as if a spell is broken.
Yep, until they collect their wits and find another demagogue to champion their cause.

Quote:
they'll be just as bitter and unhappy about the way the country's going and how the elite is ignoring them
Yep, or even more so.

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So. What do we do about them?
Split up the Union like we should have done in 1861.
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Old 5th November 2020, 11:33 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Qeustion is how many of the Trump voters are cult members, and how many are just "I will support anybody who has a R in front of his name.".
I'm guessing less than 5% are 'cult members', and 95% are 'any Republican'. Why do I think that? Imagine if Trump had run as an independent in 2016 - how many votes do you think he would have gotten?
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Old 5th November 2020, 11:59 PM   #23
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The Election’s Troubling Message: Even if Trump Loses, America’s Political Civil War Isn’t Over
Quote:
In his last superspreading rallies of the 2020 campaign, Donald Trump denounced Lady Gaga, derided Jon Bon Jovi, and decried LeBron James. At one outing, he beamed when the crowd chanted, “Fire Fauci!”... Anger. Violence. Hatred. Ignorance... Not an economic agenda. Not a foreign policy plan. And certainly not a program for thwarting the still-raging pandemic... Instead, the former reality-TV celebrity was focused on the political cultural war he has been inflaming and relying on for over five years, for that was what Trump has always been about: fear and loathing.

And on Election Day, about half the electorate looked at a president who has been fully negligent in handling the pandemic but who gleefully slams a Black NBA star and said, “Yeah, I want more of that.”
Even if Biden wins, the Civil War won't be 'over' - this is just the beginning. And if he does win it will only fan the flames more. We have already seen a bit of it, but that anger and hatred is about to spill over into a lot more violence.

Don't worry about 'de-Trumpifying' Amerca, worry about keeping you and your family safe. The next 4 years are going to be rough...
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Old 6th November 2020, 12:10 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Sorry if I came across as harsh there, but I'm glad that you can see the issue.

Whether it's fair or not, I think the right has got a lot of political mileage by telling working class white people that the "liberal elites" look down on them
and think they are ignorant, backwards country bumpkins. And the sad thing is, that there's at least a grain of truth in that stereotype about liberals.

I do believe that polarization in the United States has reached critical levels, and it is necessary to find more common ground and reaffirm each other's humanity. I believe it is one reason why America has been faring so poorly in this pandemic.
There's more than a grain of truth in most stereotypes which is how the stereotype got started in the first place; they're just usually exaggerated. Stereotypes don't spring fully formed out of thin air. "Liberal elites" certainly can be snobs and look down on others. But when you listen to a lot of Trump supporters being interviewed, they do come across as ignorant, if not plain stupid, and backwards. "I don't wear a mask because I can't understand someone when they're wearing one". "The mask traps Co2 and makes you faint." Come on. That's not ignorance, that's just plain dumb. There are a lot of rural people who are intelligent and well educated and there are a lot of liberal people who don't look down on rural people. But there are a lot of people who fit the stereotypes from both ends of the political spectrum.
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Old 6th November 2020, 12:14 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
Firstly, the US has really seen two protest movements arise in anger the past four years -- the Trump supporters and the BLM-led protesters. Both arose because their very real issues weren't being listened to. The blacks saw themselves grow up with police brutality, institutionalised racism, and far less opportunity than the white people, and even as other US minorities. As Michelle Obama put it in her memoir, "you have to work twice as hard to get half as far" as an African-American. Meanwhile there's a class of low-income people, many of them white, who do not see the problems of their communities addressed, and even experience that they are not only ignored by "the elite", but that they are even looked down upon and ridiculed by the rest of the country. You know who I'm talking about. Rednecks. Hillbillies. Trailer trash. They are to be pitied and looked down upon, turned into an archetypical character to serve as the butt of jokes.
Iffy at best.

The Black vote was down, mostly because Obama wasn't on the ballot to boost the hell out of the vote. Even back in 2010, there were many people saying "I voted for Obama, but he's not on the ballot this time, so I don't really care." By percentage, still not much of a deviation from the past few decades, but there simply was no massive historical figure to rally for.

Meanwhile, it wasn't angry stereotypical "rednecks" that voted for Dolt 45 - and definitely not them traveling a thousand miles to march around with expensive assault weapons to chant anti-semitic slogans and crash cars into people. They don't have the money for that crap, they're poor. No, the Trump voter was basically white people, period. White dropouts, white farmers, white managers, white factory workers, white college students, poor white people, wealthy white people, white english folks, and possibly white Latinos too. *The* major possible exception was white women with college degrees. And I expect white Jewish people, and white LGBT folk, voted for Clinton as well, without looking either group up.

And to be fair, a lot of these people justified it by more or less lying to themselves. "He'll become presidential when he wins". "That's just a performance." "The rest of the GOP will constrain him." "Take him seriously, not literally." And as always, many people just vote the way they've been voting (yet again, true of both major parties).

As far as the topic goes, I'll repeat myself and many others: Dolt 45 is a symptom, not a cause. The right wing, as a political group, has gone galloping off to power at all odds, demonizing whoever they consider the "other", and so forth. Quite a few people have gone galloping off with them, but many GOP supporters...are just GOP supporters, working to put food on the table, not paying much attention to politics.

Do I see a major change, short of the GOP either going even further, or simply falling off a cliff? Honestly...no. What does that mean for the future? I don't know?
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Old 6th November 2020, 12:16 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Once Trump is gone (in 4 or 8 ? years time) there won't be any 'trumkpkins', but the Deplorables will still be there. They predated Trump, and they will postdate him too.

Yep, until they collect their wits and find another demagogue to champion their cause.
Which they will. It may take a while, but that vacuum will be filled eventually.

Quote:
Split up the Union like we should have done in 1861.
It would have been easier then as it was geographically possible. Just cut the Confederacy loose with the East and West Coasts still connected by the Midwest and Great Plains. Now? Impossible unless you want a country geographically unconnected.
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Old 6th November 2020, 01:28 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
As far as the topic goes, I'll repeat myself and many others: Dolt 45 is a symptom, not a cause. The right wing, as a political group, has gone galloping off to power at all odds, demonizing whoever they consider the "other", and so forth. Quite a few people have gone galloping off with them, but many GOP supporters...are just GOP supporters, working to put food on the table, not paying much attention to politics.
I assign Trump a little more causality in the present mess, but this essentially what I believe the issue is. Trump and the Tea Party before him have been based upon and enabled by Fox News and a vast number of conservative propaganda organizations masquerading as news while actively and deliberately spewing disinformation. There are regrettably vast swathes of the American public who ONLY use these media for information. Furthermore, the advent of social media and the absence of the fairness doctrine have made it increasingly easy to live in a sociopolitical environment that is devoid of debate or any real critical analysis of political matters; resulting in very considerably increased tribalism and partisanship.

Fox news, for example, is essentially encouraging rebellion / armed resistance against the present vote and vote counts right now, using the narrative that the strongly Democratic trends in the late vote counts raise questions about the votes' validity. Despite the fact that these concerns are very easily explained with a moment's thought or knowledge of recent history. I believe the necessary response to this problem to involve at least two objectives:

1) Someone has to hold these organizations accountable for their ********; and preferably find a way to dismantle or discredit them in the eyes of their target demographics.

2) People need to find a way to engage the Deplorables / Trumpists/ Tea Party partisans in respectful, civilized discussion and debate - on a mass scale. The Lincoln project recently had a pretty good piece on how to go about this. (And, yeah, I'm about the last person to have any patience or skill at this sort of thing).

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Old 6th November 2020, 01:37 AM   #28
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Bread and circus.

A) "Make America Competitive Again."
1) Massive infrastructure job initiative, even if it takes a "national emergency" and a slew of executive orders to overcome the Senate ("pull a Trump"), centering on, wish it were otherwise, all-White or mostly White rural areas. Locate new energy projects squarely in coal and fracking country, as well as KY and TN. Aslo, coastal "rising tide" protection initiatives from VA to FL. This backdoors support for acknowledging AGW.
2) New eco-friendly transportation initiative centering on total independence from Asian car manufacturing, and based in Detroit. "The American Manufacturing Renaissance." Build electric cars that do not require rare earth elements from China.
3) Massive steel mfg initiatives to go along with above.

B) Car Key Jingles
1) Dedicated WH PR team putting out aggressive messaging.
a. "They took your jobs, gave them to China, we give them back. For real. No more Trump lies and tax cuts for the rich who took those jobs."
b. "They broke the wrong agreements. Stop illegal immigration by moving more subsidiary mfg and agriculture to Central and South America. Drain the misery swamp."
2) Fair Deal.
a. "Offshore money sits alongside that of drug traffickers, Islamic terrorists, Mafia conspirators, Russia oligarchs who pay to kill our troops... Anyone palling around with these people are enemies of breadbasket White America (film it in Kansas) and do not pay their fair share to defend America, like you do."
b. Once the money is back home creating American jobs, a pact to limit the top tax rate. "We will not soak the rich, they invest and create.... when the money is home in America, where it belongs."
c. Chiding sing-song victory memes, to the effect that, "See? If everyone pays their fair share like loyal Americans, there was always enough to go around."
d. Subtle and overt messages clearly indicating that tax-and-spend, now called "Pulling Together for America," actually makes up the deficit between total salaries paid and total revenue, together with net imports (backdooring the simple idea that net trade deficits since Reagan make for higher taxes to make up for that missing demand). "Jobs for America, not Wall Street." Bash 'em good, "'Oldman' Sachs needs to be sacked!"

Yup, take most of Trump's message and sicc on GOP financiers, big time. Change the enemy to those who, like in 1930s Germany, are paying to end democracy.

Clean up on aisle 9 using parallel think tanks who publish lofty thoughts about the great future of White America, together with their friends (cue the long scrolling list of White soldiers on one side of the screen, the nonWhite on the other, showing the total body counts and each ethnicity's percentage of the population. Punch line: Black and brown lives DEFEND breadbasket America!

Once the savages have their lollipops and have calmed down, "true Christians are Samaritans, not Pharisees" and so on, and so on, and so on. Fight the propaganda war, or lose it all. Drown Trump is a sea of better-sounding crap, and behind the scenes rebuild what needs rebuilding.

Oh, yeah: Quietly start teaching Civics again, for chrissake.
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Old 6th November 2020, 05:16 AM   #29
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There will be little time to worry about appeasing the Trumpsters.
I have compared a desire to be President right now as akin to a desire to be the Captain of the Titanic after it had struck the iceberg.
In spite of his single term, the Republicans succeeded wildly with Trump- they steered the government right into that iceberg.

Biden now needs to have a Jimmy Carter,"put on a sweater and stop being so goddamn greedy"
discussion with the American people- and just like then, people are going to hate that. The Trumpsters will be able to sit on the sidelines obstructing every effort at progress while keeping us all tied up in their "I told you so" arguments.

I am glad the Trumpster is out- but the damage done is still there, removing the biggest tumor was the easy part- the chemo might still kill us.
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Old 6th November 2020, 05:52 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Bread and circus.

A) "Make America Competitive Again."
1) Massive infrastructure job initiative, even if it takes a "national emergency" and a slew of executive orders to overcome the Senate ("pull a Trump"), centering on, wish it were otherwise, all-White or mostly White rural areas. Locate new energy projects squarely in coal and fracking country, as well as KY and TN. Aslo, coastal "rising tide" protection initiatives from VA to FL. This backdoors support for acknowledging AGW.
2) New eco-friendly transportation initiative centering on total independence from Asian car manufacturing, and based in Detroit. "The American Manufacturing Renaissance." Build electric cars that do not require rare earth elements from China.
3) Massive steel mfg initiatives to go along with above.

B) Car Key Jingles
1) Dedicated WH PR team putting out aggressive messaging.
a. "They took your jobs, gave them to China, we give them back. For real. No more Trump lies and tax cuts for the rich who took those jobs."
b. "They broke the wrong agreements. Stop illegal immigration by moving more subsidiary mfg and agriculture to Central and South America. Drain the misery swamp."
2) Fair Deal.
a. "Offshore money sits alongside that of drug traffickers, Islamic terrorists, Mafia conspirators, Russia oligarchs who pay to kill our troops... Anyone palling around with these people are enemies of breadbasket White America (film it in Kansas) and do not pay their fair share to defend America, like you do."
b. Once the money is back home creating American jobs, a pact to limit the top tax rate. "We will not soak the rich, they invest and create.... when the money is home in America, where it belongs."
c. Chiding sing-song victory memes, to the effect that, "See? If everyone pays their fair share like loyal Americans, there was always enough to go around."
d. Subtle and overt messages clearly indicating that tax-and-spend, now called "Pulling Together for America," actually makes up the deficit between total salaries paid and total revenue, together with net imports (backdooring the simple idea that net trade deficits since Reagan make for higher taxes to make up for that missing demand). "Jobs for America, not Wall Street." Bash 'em good, "'Oldman' Sachs needs to be sacked!"

Yup, take most of Trump's message and sicc on GOP financiers, big time. Change the enemy to those who, like in 1930s Germany, are paying to end democracy.

Clean up on aisle 9 using parallel think tanks who publish lofty thoughts about the great future of White America, together with their friends (cue the long scrolling list of White soldiers on one side of the screen, the nonWhite on the other, showing the total body counts and each ethnicity's percentage of the population. Punch line: Black and brown lives DEFEND breadbasket America!

Once the savages have their lollipops and have calmed down, "true Christians are Samaritans, not Pharisees" and so on, and so on, and so on. Fight the propaganda war, or lose it all. Drown Trump is a sea of better-sounding crap, and behind the scenes rebuild what needs rebuilding.

Oh, yeah: Quietly start teaching Civics again, for chrissake.
Dang, I like what you've said here, (you one eyed freak)!
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Old 6th November 2020, 07:01 AM   #31
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I've on many occasions mentioned Trump (and to a lesser degree the Right in general)'s ability to put a "But not you, you're one of the good ones" subtext to things when insulting/being openly hostile to an entire demographic.

Maybe the Left needs its version of that. A way to be civil to the Trumpers as individuals while still not letting them off the hook as a demographic.
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Old 6th November 2020, 07:08 AM   #32
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You guys can try. I can hope it will work, though I doubt that. Why? For this to work, both sides must want it.

Can you reconcile or cooperate or compromise with baby-eating commie kid rapists? Their heads - your heads (as majority of this forum is leaning left or what passes for left in USA) - should be on pikes, after all.

Can sane people reconcile or cooperate or compromise with nutjobs that think above?

This is rhetoric question, of course. There is no way you can do that with people that want authoritarian state, one party rule, el presidento for life and all that jazz.

I don't know how many republicans are like that. But I am sure answer is "too many". And their number grows. And other republicans that want use those crazies for their political goals without believing drivel itself will be swallowed by these loons. Wouldn't be first time it happened.

What I know is The Rot is irreversible and can only be cleansed in fire*. No one talked about reconciliation or cooperation or whatever with Nazis after ww2. Or preserving their political system. Or allowing their values in political space. They were executed for what they did. To today in many countries communist and fascist parties are banned.

Of course, winning second civil war (regardless of what form this boogaloo will take) in this way is optimistic variant.

*I long ago lost hope that it will happen after I am safely in grave, dying to old age.
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Old 6th November 2020, 07:15 AM   #33
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I'm not seeing anything that indicates Biden has any hunger for holding Trump and his lackeys criminally accountable.
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Old 6th November 2020, 07:33 AM   #34
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The problem is we can't treat "Trumpers" as some fringe demographic that will wither and die if we ignore them or cut them off.

They are ~45% of the population. "They are unreasonable and can't be dealt with" isn't a solution.
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Old 6th November 2020, 07:37 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The problem is we can't treat "Trumpers" as some fringe demographic that will wither and die if we ignore them or cut them off.

They are ~45% of the population. "They are unreasonable and can't be dealt with" isn't a solution.
To be fair, all 45% of people who voted for Trump aren't MAGA diehards.

The people unironically calling for a Trump dynasty until the turn of the next century are lost causes. The ones strapping on armor plates and rifles to menace election workers in AZ can't be won over. There's no reason to engage with the CHUDs and calls to do so should be treated with suspicion. These people are a fringe demographic and should not be catered to, and they aren't 45% of the population.

But yeah, there are large swaths of the population that voted Trump that must be engaged with in a meaningful way.
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Old 6th November 2020, 08:04 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The closest thing to an answer I can give is we need some form of economic and social reform for the rural areas of the United States. Give them something to do, to strive for, to accomplish beyond "Hurry up and die off and be quiet while doing it."

But I don't know what that thing is, nor do I have full faith that the Trump Supporters aren't in full on "Burn it all down" mode with no way of being pulled back.

One idea, that builds on ideas I've had for many years now, involves moving a whole lot of "work at home" workers out of the big cities and populous states into the small towns that are slowly drying up and dying.

Here in Canada, I'm currently working at home full time due to the pandemic, but I did three years of full-time work at home a few years back, before my bosses decided to change the rules and forced me (and quite a few like me) to come back to the office at least part-time. During my first WAH period, it was quite clear to me that I could live anywhere in Canada that has decent internet access, and still be able to do my job well enough to keep it.

And even back then, I thought, "So why is it we have a few hundred thousand civil servants stuck living in Ottawa, if they could probably do their jobs anywhere?" Why didn't we set up a system to encourage at least some of those people to move to areas of the country (like Newfoundland, which was one place I'd thought of living) where there are serious economic problems?

There are a lot of small towns in rural Canada that would be nice to live in, if you had a job. If we could get even 10 or 20 people with jobs like mine to move to such a town, we'd be injecting probably $1-2 million dollars of income into the community, at almost no extra cost to the government - they're already paying our salaries, after all. There might be some added cost related to getting people to move - like guaranteeing buying their current homes, for example, but that's a one-time cost that could be offset at least a little bit by re-selling the houses, even if there's a loss involved. We'd also have to ensure good internet access for these workers, which would cost some money, but that has the added benefit of finally providing decent internet access to these small towns.

That injection of extra income would probably have a disproportionate effect on the local economies of those towns. Permanent, good-paying jobs allow local businesses to have some confidence that the money won't just dry up and blow away when the political or economic winds shift.

And now, with so many people working from home during the pandemic, we as a society are finally seeing that these kinds of jobs can be done remotely, despite what management always feared - that people would just laze around and not work if they weren't being directly supervised all day. So it's not just government jobs that could be moved in this manner.

This also has a political effect, as it probably moves some of the Democrat voters out of the cities where they are over-represented, and into the rural counties where they are under-represented. That might change the "huge areas of Red with zero population" problems the US has right now.
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Old 6th November 2020, 08:12 AM   #37
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The problem is if SiliconValleyBigBusiness decides to take, let's say, 100 tech support jobs and outsource them remotely they have absolutely no reason to not outsource them to India where they can pay pennies on the dollar instead of outsourcing them to Bison Valley, Wyoming where they still have to pay people the same.

The whole "Oh well the rural areas can just work remotely!" thing misunderstands a huge reason of why outsourcing is a thing. It's cheaper because you can outsource it to areas where you can pay less.

There's a reason pretty much the only viable long term outsourcing industry in America is prison labor because it too can be paid pennies on the dollar.
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Old 6th November 2020, 08:13 AM   #38
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I also question (don't outright reject mind you, but do question) a solution which is "Well just move to the city."

America is not going to collapse into a couple of hundred dense urban cores inside a giant National Park.
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Old 6th November 2020, 08:36 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The problem is if SiliconValleyBigBusiness decides to take, let's say, 100 tech support jobs and outsource them remotely they have absolutely no reason to not outsource them to India where they can pay pennies on the dollar instead of outsourcing them to Bison Valley, Wyoming where they still have to pay people the same.

The whole "Oh well the rural areas can just work remotely!" thing misunderstands a huge reason of why outsourcing is a thing. It's cheaper because you can outsource it to areas where you can pay less.

I'm not talking about "outsourcing" jobs. I'm talking about encouraging the people who already have those jobs to physically move to a new location.

That is, jobs where the employers have already decided not to outsource to a cheaper foreign alternative, for whatever reason.

And it's not just "SiliconValleyBigBusiness" I'm talking about. It's every person in the US (and Canada, and the rest of the world, really) who are currently discovering the benefits of WAH due to the conditions of the pandemic. We're already seeing speculation that quite a few of these people will never return to an office, due to these benefits, both to themselves as people and to their employers as businesses, so why not harness that horse to a second cart, and diversify some of the small town economies while we're at it?

We may be sitting on a unique opportunity to do this right now, but that opportunity will not last.

Start with the people like me - the Government, no matter who wins the election, is unlikey to outsource civil service jobs to India, or wherever. This shows it's possible, and will (hopefully) demonstrate some of the benefits I've speculated about. When big companies (like, say, banks, insurance companies, accounting firms, **** like that) see this working, they may jump on the bandwagon.


Really, the government numbers alone could probably make a big difference.

In 2017, there were about 364,000 civil servants working in DC. Their average salary was about $81,000.

If even 10% of those people moved to economically depressed areas, that's a transfer of almost $3 billion in salaries to those communities. And it's not just a one-time stimulus - that's every year, in perpetuity, at virtually no extra cost to taxpayers. If I could pull a rabbit like that out my hat in any other way, people would jump at the chance.

You asked for ideas, here's one. Perfectly doable, unless you secretly just want to throw your hands in the air and despair. Why not at least try it?
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Old 6th November 2020, 08:41 AM   #40
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Oh do not misunderstand me it is very much worth trying.

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