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Old 8th November 2020, 08:42 AM   #121
shuttlt
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Trump had Obama investigated for spying on the Trump campaign.

The 'let it go' train has left the station by trumps own hand.
If you want to make a gesture and bring both sides together, completing the Durham report and finding some fault to admit there, even if it is only token, would be a good start.

Trump is supposed to be the bad guy here. If in victory you set the bar at what Trump did, by your own narrative, that is no standard what so ever.
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Old 8th November 2020, 08:48 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
This is perhaps the most important point. Once the GOP gets back to work, Trump is meaningless, and I think that much of the GOP, the power brokers, were sick to death of him in any case.

Trump never represented the GOP. He was their populist useful idiot.
They never wanted him any more than the power brokers behind the Democrats wanted Bernie. The question is what to do about the people who voted for him, and the reasons why they voted for him. If everybody just goes back to handing over manufacturing to China and toppling foreign governments then their reasons for voting for him remain.
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Old 8th November 2020, 08:52 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
If you want to make a gesture and bring both sides together, completing the Durham report and finding some fault to admit there, even if it is only token, would be a good start.

Trump is supposed to be the bad guy here. If in victory you set the bar at what Trump did, by your own narrative, that is no standard what so ever.
Why not new investigations into Benghazi and Hillary's emails? Anyone who believes these silly smears aren't worth taking seriously. There's a limit to what reconciliation can reasonably encompass.
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Old 8th November 2020, 08:54 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
...and flock of people insisting we always were in war with Oceania Trump is not and never was republican rises in number.

On 21 Jan you folks will pretend Trump never existed.
I'm not a Republican. The Republican party may. It's hard to say.
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Old 8th November 2020, 08:54 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
If you want to make a gesture and bring both sides together, completing the Durham report and finding some fault to admit there, even if it is only token, would be a good start.

Trump is supposed to be the bad guy here. If in victory you set the bar at what Trump did, by your own narrative, that is no standard what so ever.
If the new AG doesn't at least investigate emoluments then the Constitution is useless.

The ignoring of Congressional subpoenas also needs to be addressed again because of the Constitutional separation of powers.

The rest of the federal stuff go after his cronies. These charges need not be related to Trump.

Trump is already screwed in NY.
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Old 8th November 2020, 09:01 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
If you want to make a gesture and bring both sides together, completing the Durham report and finding some fault to admit there, even if it is only token, would be a good start.

Trump is supposed to be the bad guy here. If in victory you set the bar at what Trump did, by your own narrative, that is no standard what so ever.
Yes, and being bipartisan means removing people's healthcare for corporate profits, and more tax cuts for the rich, and more deregulation, pretending man made climate change isn't real, and other denials of basic reality.

'Compromise' means giving them everything they want. We know, we know.
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Old 8th November 2020, 09:01 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Why not new investigations into Benghazi and Hillary's emails? Anyone who believes these silly smears aren't worth taking seriously. There's a limit to what reconciliation can reasonably encompass.
Right, so if you have no respect for or interest in building bridges with the half of the country that supported Trump, then that's OK... but I'm not sure what there is to argue about. I only replied because I thought you saw a pardon as
Originally Posted by eerok View Post
a way of mending the American divide.
If you have any desire to bring them in from the cold, the starting point is where they are and how they understand the world. Obviously you don't see the world how they do, that's why there is a divide.
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Old 8th November 2020, 09:02 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
They never wanted him any more than the power brokers behind the Democrats wanted Bernie. The question is what to do about the people who voted for him, and the reasons why they voted for him. If everybody just goes back to handing over manufacturing to China and toppling foreign governments then their reasons for voting for him remain.
We're drifting from the point here. I think there will be some pressure on Biden to pardon Trump. Republicans profited from outsourcing to China, and Republicans toppled foreign governments as willingly as anyone else, so I don't know what else you're talking about here.
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Old 8th November 2020, 09:04 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Yes, and being bipartisan means removing people's healthcare for corporate profits, and more tax cuts for the rich, and more deregulation, pretending man made climate change isn't real, and other denials of basic reality.

'Compromise' means giving them everything they want. We know, we know.
If your perspective prevails, the divide will get worse.
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Old 8th November 2020, 09:05 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Right, so if you have no respect for or interest in building bridges with the half of the country that supported Trump, then that's OK... but I'm not sure what there is to argue about. I only replied because I thought you saw a pardon as

If you have any desire to bring them in from the cold, the starting point is where they are and how they understand the world. Obviously you don't see the world how they do, that's why there is a divide.
Compromise is exactly that. It doesn't mean giving everything away. There's no way to make the alt-right and fringe conspiracists happy, and there's no point in trying.
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Old 8th November 2020, 09:06 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
If your perspective prevails, the divide will get worse.
Biden is not going to channel Trump, so if that's what you think it'll take to mend bridges, then indeed they'll go unmended.
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Old 8th November 2020, 09:07 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
If your perspective prevails, the divide will get worse.
I see you have interesting definition of "compromise".
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Old 8th November 2020, 09:07 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
We're drifting from the point here. I think there will be some pressure on Biden to pardon Trump. Republicans profited from outsourcing to China, and Republicans toppled foreign governments as willingly as anyone else, so I don't know what else you're talking about here.
Republican's absolutely did. I just think a pardon is going to be perceived by Trump supporters as an insult. Given that, I think it would be better to just not prosecute him.
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Old 8th November 2020, 09:08 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
You think prosecuting him is going to do that when impeachment, and Russiagate didn't? All you are talking about here is pursuing the same strategy yet again, but even more loudly and forcefully. They already think your side are authoritarian liars, all your plan will do is reinforce that.
No they are talking about allowing the justice system to work fairly and without prejudice.
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Old 8th November 2020, 09:11 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
I see you have interesting definition of "compromise".
I haven't said anything about compromise. I talked about mending bridges, and olive branches... that got turned by tyr_13 into a call for removing people's healthcare for corporate profits, and more tax cuts for the rich, and more deregulation, pretending man made climate change isn't real, and other denials of basic reality. tyr_13's attitude is not one that heals divides. If it prevails, then the red states probably should succeed since there is clearly no place for them.
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Old 8th November 2020, 09:20 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
No they are talking about allowing the justice system to work fairly and without prejudice.
If the justice system works "fairly and without prejudice" on an ex-President, it will be the first and likely only time in history. Just deciding to do that is a political act. Even if it is an entirely procedurally proper process that by some miracle isn't marred by politics, it will not be seen that way by a lot of the country. You're asking for him to be treated more harshly than Jefferson Davis, that is lunacy.
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Old 8th November 2020, 09:21 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I haven't said anything about compromise. I talked about mending bridges, and olive branches... that got turned by tyr_13 into a call for removing people's healthcare for corporate profits, and more tax cuts for the rich, and more deregulation, pretending man made climate change isn't real, and other denials of basic reality. tyr_13's attitude is not one that heals divides. If it prevails, then the red states probably should succeed since there is clearly no place for them.
Compromise is what's going to happen, regardless. That's the path to mend bridges, such as it is.
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Old 8th November 2020, 09:22 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Compromise is what's going to happen, regardless. That's the path to mend bridges, such as it is.
I hope so.
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Old 8th November 2020, 10:08 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
If your perspective prevails, the divide will get worse.
My observing where you, and the GOP, set the goalposts does not put the agency over setting those goalpost on me.

It is your position, your perspective. You are saying to 'mend bridges' we have to let conservative crimes go unpunished, again. That we have to pretend they've been interested in compromise and bipartisanism, even while more than a hundred acts sit on Mitch's desk without even a hearing let alone a vote. While they still are trying to destroy a system of providing healthcare to millions of Americans based on their own preferred methods.

No. There is no need to once again dispense with accountability in order to mend the divide. This is a toxic and cowardly way of thinking that puts the onus for mending things completely on the manifestly more reasonable party. 'Being the bigger person' crossed into enabling behavior long ago. The 'party of personal responsibility' will need to become that if they really want to mend the nation. Or even pretend to.

Patriots will move past the crimes, but that doesn't mean ignoring them nor pretending the crimes were reasonable all along to save fragile egos. Many who were wrong will realize it, and some will not hold their being wrong against those who were right. Not all Republicans are so small.
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Old 8th November 2020, 10:10 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
You're asking for him to be treated more harshly than Jefferson Davis, that is lunacy.
That was a mistake then, it was a mistake with Nixon, it was a mistake with Reagan, it was a mistake with Bush.

Accountability is how to mend things.
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Old 8th November 2020, 10:34 AM   #141
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Hey, less reaction to shuttit and more bridge-building. He's just channeling Dylan. He pities the pore immigrant who wishes he'd just of stayed home.

And don't start in about how they was a wicked messenger from Ealing he did come. We don't let guys like that post here.
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Old 8th November 2020, 10:38 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
If the justice system works "fairly and without prejudice" on an ex-President, it will be the first and likely only time in history. Just deciding to do that is a political act. Even if it is an entirely procedurally proper process that by some miracle isn't marred by politics, it will not be seen that way by a lot of the country. You're asking for him to be treated more harshly than Jefferson Davis, that is lunacy.
Iím astonished that you seem to think it is fine for criminals to get away with their crimes because they have held political office.

I would suggest if you are one that wants to help your country ďmendĒ having it be seen that those holding political office will be held to the same standards as everyone else would help that mending.
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Old 8th November 2020, 10:41 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Compromise is what's going to happen, regardless. That's the path to mend bridges, such as it is.
Obviously it will vary depending on what is being subject to compromise but it isnít always the case, for example if one side is factually correct and the other isnít there isnít a possible compromise.
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Old 8th November 2020, 10:56 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Iím astonished that you seem to think it is fine for criminals to get away with their crimes because they have held political office.
That isn't what I said.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I would suggest if you are one that wants to help your country ďmendĒ having it be seen that those holding political office will be held to the same standards as everyone else would help that mending.
Well, you are entitled to your view. That clearly isn't the view that won out in the North after the Civil War. If your view wins out, Trump will be punished more severely than Jefferson Davis. After the civil war, they decided that they would rather have a country than enforce the law as they undoubtedly saw it.
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Old 8th November 2020, 10:59 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Obviously it will vary depending on what is being subject to compromise but it isnít always the case, for example if one side is factually correct and the other isnít there isnít a possible compromise.
The facts are almost always in dispute. If you don't compromise when you think you are in the right, you are not going to do a lot of compromising.
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Old 8th November 2020, 11:12 AM   #146
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No, don't punish Donnie worse than Jeff. A spell in irons, followed by a stretch in a cell down in Ft. Monroe, and release on $100,000 bail, would do for a start. What the state of NY will do to him after that is up to them.

Oh, and let Donnie's family join him in the clink if they want, the way Jeff's did. Or even if they don't, following their various convictions. Imagine that pack of vinigaroons crammed in together. No, don't; cruel & unusual punishment & all that.
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Old 8th November 2020, 11:29 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
No, don't punish Donnie worse than Jeff. A spell in irons, followed by a stretch in a cell down in Ft. Monroe, and release on $100,000 bail, would do for a start. What the state of NY will do to him after that is up to them.
If I remember rightly, the bail was paid by rich interests in the north who wanted to get on with fixing the country. People were torn, as today but decided that revenge, and treason charges weren't worth it. Which do you prefer, having a country or righteous retribution? Pick one.
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Old 8th November 2020, 11:34 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I'm not a Republican.
They must appreciate all the hard work youíre putting into carrying their water for them.
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Old 8th November 2020, 11:37 AM   #149
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AAAH! Not the righteous retribution! Why can't we pursue simple justice instead and just forgive all the crimes committed by the previous administration? That sounds reasonably fair and totally won't bite anyone in the rear later down the road....
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Old 8th November 2020, 11:40 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Obviously it will vary depending on what is being subject to compromise but it isnít always the case, for example if one side is factually correct and the other isnít there isnít a possible compromise.
That's true, and that's why I'm adamant that "mending bridges" doesn't mean placating the GOP. It means the GOP has to mend from their side of the bridge as well.

Up front, though, there's an awful lot of damage that Trump produced that must be fixed, and I don't think this should be a big problem. This includes restoring pacts and agreements that Trump broke. For the most part these are not issues for the GOP, because Trump's behavior here didn't reflect GOP policy, it was Trump strutting as an ignorant bully. I think most GOP didn't approve of these things in any case.

So I hope the GOP doesn't insist now that these are bargaining chips that must be balanced out.

Anyway, I still want to see Trump in prison, though only after due process, of course.
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Old 8th November 2020, 11:41 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
No, don't punish Donnie worse than Jeff. A spell in irons, followed by a stretch in a cell down in Ft. Monroe, and release on $100,000 bail, would do for a start. What the state of NY will do to him after that is up to them.

Oh, and let Donnie's family join him in the clink if they want, the way Jeff's did. Or even if they don't, following their various convictions. Imagine that pack of vinigaroons crammed in together. No, don't; cruel & unusual punishment & all that.
I like how you reach all the way back to the Civil War to establish precedent for how Trump should be treated after he leaves office, but youíve conveniently overlooked the precedent set by Republicans in the past 12 years when mouthing disingenuous platitudes about how Democrats should reach across the aisle and be willing to compromise.
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Old 8th November 2020, 11:46 AM   #152
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There’s basically two options:

Allow presidents to commit crimes without consequence.

Hold presidents accountable for the crimes they commit.

And in fairness, we should let Republicans choose which option we move forward with.
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Old 8th November 2020, 11:47 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I wasn't talking about whether he was criminal. I was saying that if one wanted to make a magnanimous gesture to a group of people "to bring the country together", you have to do it such that it will be taken as such from their perspective. Otherwise you are just playing to the peanut gallery of your own side.
A husband beats his wife and abuses the kids. A neighbor calls the cops, and the bastard is charged. But the guy's parents and siblings say he's really a decent chap at heart, and the wife declines to prosecute out of fear. Does the law overlook her injuries and the kids' terror, and decide to be 'magnanimous' out of deference to the wishes of his 'supporters'?

Or maybe the Law should look away when the man in the street sympathizes with the likes of, say, Bonnie and Clyde.

For peons like us, the weight of justice tends to bring meaningful consequences far more readily than it does for the bigwigs already. It's insane for the populace to want to amplify that out of some misguided loyalty.
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Old 8th November 2020, 11:48 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
There’s basically two options:

Allow presidents to commit crimes without consequence.

Hold presidents accountable for the crimes they commit.

And in fairness, we should let Republicans choose which option we move forward with.
In this case it'll be Biden who chooses. I'm really interested in seeing what he does, if anything. I think he should just let the law take its course.
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Old 8th November 2020, 11:48 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
While I'd rather Trump go to prison, I think Biden could see a Trump pardon as a way of mending the American divide. It's just my assessment of Biden as a forgiving man. We'll have to see.
Trump has little to do with the divide, which is very real. President Elect Biden should start his administration by showing that criminals are not above the law. If he pardons Trump, he should pardon other far right criminals. Sound fair? Not to me.

I don't think the divide is reconcilable. Neo-fascism is funny about compromise.
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Old 8th November 2020, 11:53 AM   #156
eerok
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Trump has little to do with the divide, which is very real. President Elect Biden should start his administration by showing that criminals are not above the law. If he pardons Trump, he should pardon other far right criminals. Sound fair? Not to me.

I don't think the divide is reconcilable. Neo-fascism is funny about compromise.
I think Trump nurtured and exacerbated the divide to further his own interests. I agree with the rest of what you said.
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Old 8th November 2020, 12:02 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
I think Trump nurtured and exacerbated the divide to further his own interests. I agree with the rest of what you said.
Agreed, he worked hard to make extremism more mainstream. Ma and pa can now find white power kindred spirits in otherwise polite society. I really hate the President for that one. .
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Old 8th November 2020, 12:03 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I like how you reach all the way back to the Civil War to establish precedent for how Trump should be treated after he leaves office, but youíve conveniently overlooked the precedent set by Republicans in the past 12 years when mouthing disingenuous platitudes about how Democrats should reach across the aisle and be willing to compromise.
I was just replying to somebody using Jeff as an example of a traitor who got light treatment.

Actually, I don't think Davis and Trampf are closely parallel cases. Davis believed in his cause and put his life on the line for it. As far as I know, he was an honest man, although "as cold as a lizard and as proud as Lucifer." It was an honor to fight him. See the Jefferson quote in my sig? It applies to Jeff Davis.

And not a bit to Trump.
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Old 8th November 2020, 12:22 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
As to holding to account Trump and fellow travelers, Biden need have no involvement at all. Indeed, he MUST be removed from all proceedings. It has nothing to do with him. No bias, no input, no comment. (Unlike Drumpf, for whom the DoJ was his personal attack dog.) The apparatus of the justice system can do its work without fear or favor just fine all by itself. As it must.
Agreed. Biden cannot be seen to be the petty, vengeful little man that Trump is. Nor is he, in reality. Let the law take its course as law and precedence says it should.
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Old 8th November 2020, 01:38 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
I was just replying to somebody using Jeff as an example of a traitor who got light treatment.

Actually, I don't think Davis and Trampf are closely parallel cases. Davis believed in his cause and put his life on the line for it. As far as I know, he was an honest man, although "as cold as a lizard and as proud as Lucifer." It was an honor to fight him. See the Jefferson quote in my sig? It applies to Jeff Davis.

And not a bit to Trump.
I quoted the wrong person and apologize to you for the error.

I intended to quote shuttit.

Again, apologies.
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