IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , joe biden

Closed Thread
Old 9th November 2020, 06:18 AM   #161
timhau
NWO Litter Technician
 
timhau's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I?
Posts: 14,150
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Washington Examiner tweeted

@dcexaminer
Dead voters. Biden van full of ballots. Trump legal team details shock Nevada claims
NORTH LAS VEGAS, Nevada — President Trump's Nevada legal team beefed up its legal challenge to mail-in ballot signature verification in the state with startling claims of voter and ballot fraud.
washingtonexaminer.com
Since with Trump every accusation is a confession, I'd like someone to take a long hard look at North Carolina, where Trump's winning margin will be pretty thin.
__________________
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
- Emo Philips
timhau is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 06:20 AM   #162
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 30,641
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Washington Examiner tweeted

@dcexaminer
Dead voters. Biden van full of ballots. Trump legal team details shock Nevada claims
NORTH LAS VEGAS, Nevada — President Trump's Nevada legal team beefed up its legal challenge to mail-in ballot signature verification in the state with startling claims of voter and ballot fraud.
washingtonexaminer.com
This should be criminal either way.

If these allegations are true, then those people responsible should end up in jail.

If these allegations are false, then the publishers of the washingtonexaminer should end up in jail.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 06:29 AM   #163
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 30,234
Farage on Radio 2 saying mail in voting in the UK is completely corrupt and a scandal, he was cheated at the last election by fake postal votes and it is the same in the USA.
Postal voting has ruined elections in the UK, it was introduced by Labour so they would keep Blair in office.

Trump is right to push it in the USA because it is all completely corrupt and criminal, the Democrats learned it from the UK.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 9th November 2020 at 06:32 AM.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 06:37 AM   #164
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 15,282
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I'm sure the consensus in this thread (haven't been keeping up with it) is that the claims of election tampering / fraud, etc. are overblown, stuff that always happens, not enough to change the outcome, outright lies, rumor, speculation, whatever.

That is what I'd expect folks here to think.

I personally have seen enough evidence going around to put us well beyond the point of justifying a careful, deliberate look and recount in specific states.

There are some serious abnormalities.

When it all gets hashed out, will it be enough to overturn the result as it stands now? Maybe, maybe not. I would say the odds are probably against Trump here.

So why did I make the renewed declaration and the avatar bet, then? Because I find doubling down / long shots / die hard mentality to be appealing and worthy of subscription.
Whereas I have personally seen the face on Mars wink.

Sometimes when I have the urge to post, I think... Will this post help a critical thinker see things factually, or arm them to help other people see things factually?

When I run your Trump-like post through that filter, it goes like this:
An anonymous character on the internet with a reputation for being disconnected from fact says that s/he has personally seen weightly evidence. But like the Rudi clown show, they failed to present said evidence.
How very whimsical, people are saying.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
My authority is total - Trump
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 06:42 AM   #165
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,806
The MAGA reaction to the loss seems very splintered to me, largely because of the large number of conspiracy theorist cranks among the MAGA base.

Some have accepted that Trump has lost and have reacted either with despair or calls for abandoning the electoral system altogether and seizing power. Deranged as this may be, at least it is grappling with the reality of the situation that Trump will not hold onto power unless extreme measures are taken. Calls for a violent coup or other civil unrest is at least a reaction based on a factual understanding of the electoral loss.

Undercutting this is the Q and other CT types who think that everything is still well in hand. They claim that the media either got it wrong or is lying again and that the truth will out come time for the official certification of votes or the electoral college or whatever. If you believe in a semi-divine power like Q, us mere mortals need not be concerned.

You see those calling for direct action to make the loss moot running headlong into those saying that they need faith and that nothing is wrong, Trump never lost. A wait and see approach very much undermines the very real need for direct, violent action (assuming you are a MAGA type that wants to cling to power).

I'm guessing that the truth won't be driven home until it's well too late for any concerted action. I imagine many of the Q cranks and other CT fantasists won't really come to terms with reality until inauguration day, and even then some will never confront the failure of their preferred narrative.

It doesn't help that Trump is peddling these moonshot legal theories that have no chance to actually work. If he wanted to hold onto power, he should be inflaming the sense of grievance and anger among his base, not ensuring them that a legitimate win is still within reach. He should be calling the vote irredeemably corrupt, the media and legal system untrustworthy, and declaring himself the victor now, not pending some SCOTUS challenge. His brownshirts are ready, but they are leaderless and lack direction.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 9th November 2020 at 06:51 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 06:59 AM   #166
TofuFighter
Master Poster
 
TofuFighter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,548
If any MAGA supporters read the fine print at the bottom of trump's campaign page which is now asking for more donations, it says 60% will be paid to existing debt, until it's paid, and then to recount expenses. 40% to RNC account.

It makes me at least a little suspicious that trump doesn't actually take this whole fraud fiasco seriously, he's just trying to milk the rubes so that he doesn't have to spend his own money on outstanding debts.
__________________
The "illusion of truth" effect: “Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth”
TofuFighter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 07:03 AM   #167
Olmstead
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 299
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The MAGA reaction to the loss seems very splintered to me, largely because of the large number of conspiracy theorist cranks among the MAGA base.

Some have accepted that Trump has lost and have reacted either with despair or calls for abandoning the electoral system altogether and seizing power. Deranged as this may be, at least it is grappling with the reality of the situation that Trump will not hold onto power unless extreme measures are taken. Calls for a violent coup or other civil unrest is at least a reaction based on a factual understanding of the electoral loss.

Undercutting this is the Q and other CT types who think that everything is still well in hand. They claim that the media either got it wrong or is lying again and that the truth will out come time for the official certification of votes or the electoral college or whatever. If you believe in a semi-divine power like Q, us mere mortals need not be concerned.

You see those calling for direct action to make the loss moot running headlong into those saying that they need faith and that nothing is wrong, Trump never lost.

I'm guessing that the truth won't be driven home until it's well too late for any concerted action. I imagine many of the Q cranks and other CT fantasists won't really come to terms with reality until inauguration day, and even then some will never confront the failure of their preferred narrative.

It doesn't help that Trump is peddling these moonshot legal theories that have no chance to actually work. If he wanted to hold onto power, he should be inflaming the sense of grievance and anger among his base, not ensuring them that a legitimate win is still within reach. His brownshirts are ready, but they are leaderless and lack direction.
Make a show of following the rule of law. When that inevitably fails, claim that you've exhausted all legal remedies available to you without success, proving that the system is corrupt. You really didn't want to do this, but the establishment has given you no choice: a violent coup is now the only way to protect the country. Checkmate.

Last edited by Olmstead; 9th November 2020 at 07:04 AM.
Olmstead is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 07:05 AM   #168
eerok
Quixoticist
 
eerok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: ON Canada
Posts: 3,094
Originally Posted by TofuFighter View Post
If any MAGA supporters read the fine print at the bottom of trump's campaign page which is now asking for more donations, it says 60% will be paid to existing debt, until it's paid, and then to recount expenses. 40% to RNC account.

It makes me at least a little suspicious that trump doesn't actually take this whole fraud fiasco seriously, he's just trying to milk the rubes so that he doesn't have to spend his own money on outstanding debts.
He'll need to raise funds for the legal actions that are due to be filed against him in the near future. That, and he loves spending other people's money in general.

Also, doesn't he have 1bn in debt coming due soon? Is that part of the "existing debt"?
__________________
"Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde

Last edited by eerok; 9th November 2020 at 07:07 AM.
eerok is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 07:12 AM   #169
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 30,234
Trump Retweeted

Byron York
@ByronYork
Some Democrats, media allies are angry that Trump accuses Biden of cheating. But they shouldn't be surprised. After all, they said same thing in 2016. Then they weaponized baseless cheating allegation--Collusion!--into long criminal investigation.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 07:15 AM   #170
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 30,234
Trump campaign voter fraud hotline flooded with prank calls

A hotline set up by the Trump campaign to collect reports of alleged election or voter fraud has reportedly been deluged by prank calls from supporters of President-elect Joe Biden, according to ABC News.

ABC News reported that the hotline, which directs callers to a voicemail box, has been flooded by messages mocking the campaign over Biden's victory in the presidential election. The Associated Press and broadcast networks on Saturday projected Biden had won the race.

Eric Trump, one of the president's sons, addressed the calls on Twitter, blaming the Democratic National Committee (DNC) for the pranksters.

"The @DNC is spamming our voter fraud hotline to bog down the thousands of complaints we are receiving! Wonder what they have to hide," he wrote.

"The hotline is proving to be very effective as there are thousands of Americans who had very concerning experiences while voting. We are gathering information as we prepare to move forward," added a Trump campaign spokesman in an emailed statement to The Hill.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...k-calls-report
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 07:15 AM   #171
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 31,803
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Retweeted

Byron York
@ByronYork
Some Democrats, media allies are angry that Trump accuses Biden of cheating. But they shouldn't be surprised. After all, they said same thing in 2016. Then they weaponized baseless cheating allegation--Collusion!--into long criminal investigation.
Isn't that tantamount to an admission of vexatious litigation?

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 07:17 AM   #172
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,806
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The MAGA reaction to the loss seems very splintered to me, largely because of the large number of conspiracy theorist cranks among the MAGA base.

Some have accepted that Trump has lost and have reacted either with despair or calls for abandoning the electoral system altogether and seizing power. Deranged as this may be, at least it is grappling with the reality of the situation that Trump will not hold onto power unless extreme measures are taken. Calls for a violent coup or other civil unrest is at least a reaction based on a factual understanding of the electoral loss.

Undercutting this is the Q and other CT types who think that everything is still well in hand. They claim that the media either got it wrong or is lying again and that the truth will out come time for the official certification of votes or the electoral college or whatever. If you believe in a semi-divine power like Q, us mere mortals need not be concerned.

You see those calling for direct action to make the loss moot running headlong into those saying that they need faith and that nothing is wrong, Trump never lost. A wait and see approach very much undermines the very real need for direct, violent action (assuming you are a MAGA type that wants to cling to power).

I'm guessing that the truth won't be driven home until it's well too late for any concerted action. I imagine many of the Q cranks and other CT fantasists won't really come to terms with reality until inauguration day, and even then some will never confront the failure of their preferred narrative.

It doesn't help that Trump is peddling these moonshot legal theories that have no chance to actually work. If he wanted to hold onto power, he should be inflaming the sense of grievance and anger among his base, not ensuring them that a legitimate win is still within reach. He should be calling the vote irredeemably corrupt, the media and legal system untrustworthy, and declaring himself the victor now, not pending some SCOTUS challenge. His brownshirts are ready, but they are leaderless and lack direction.
Are there really MAGAts calling for eliminating the EC?

That would have only killed 2 of their last 3 wins.
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 07:20 AM   #173
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,955
Thinking back on the election, I'd be curious if anyone's looking for statistical irregularities regarding mail ballots. There was a great suspicion that DeJoy was put in place for shenanigans, but aside from typically scummy Trump appointee behavior no overt accusations have surfaced. On the other hand, Biden lost Florida because a single county (Miami-Dade) turned out surprisingly biased towards Trump. There's other plausible explanations, but it would be reassuring to know there wasn't anything amiss with the votes themselves.

Originally Posted by TofuFighter View Post
If any MAGA supporters read the fine print at the bottom of trump's campaign page which is now asking for more donations, it says 60% will be paid to existing debt, until it's paid, and then to recount expenses. 40% to RNC account.

It makes me at least a little suspicious that trump doesn't actually take this whole fraud fiasco seriously, he's just trying to milk the rubes so that he doesn't have to spend his own money on outstanding debts.
I believe Trump is fully able to genuinely scream about how he was cheated while stuffing cash into his pockets. The man is incapable of hypocrisy - you need at least some integrity in order to violate it.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 07:22 AM   #174
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,806
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Are there really MAGAts calling for eliminating the EC?

That would have only killed 2 of their last 3 wins.
No, some are calling for Trump to just ignore the results and claim power backed by the threat of violence. There are no legitimate or reform paths forward for the MAGA movement, it's coup or bust.

I imagine this would look like Trump declaring that the election was rigged, there is no way to determine the "real" winner, and that he won't step down.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 9th November 2020 at 07:24 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 07:23 AM   #175
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,806
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
"The @DNC is spamming our voter fraud hotline to bog down the thousands of complaints we are receiving! Wonder what they have to hide," he wrote.
1) I doubt it is the @DNC doing it, and
2) Yeah, what do you expect, moron? Your "voter fraud hotline" is a worthless pile of crap, regardless of whether the @DNC is spamming it or not

The MAGAts calling it are just as much spam

(I heard of one person who called who claimed that her roommate stole her absentee vote and voted for her; she then voted in person. They tracked it down and it was her signature on the mail in ballot. When they asked if she wanted to file a fraudulant ballot charge against her "roommate" she declined)
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 07:36 AM   #176
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 23,900
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I appreciate what you say, but this is creating a never-ending cycle of claim-investigation-debunking in which those people claiming voter fraud are never satisfied because even if this case is explained (and they may not be satisfied with any explanation), what about the next case ?
CTers are never satisfied. The goal isn't to satisfy the critics. It's to satisfy the people who might believe them. It's unfortunate, but I think it has to be done to some level. It's kind of ongoing education.

The President of the United States is saying there's voter fraud. Some people are going to believe him. We need to do something to convince at least some of those people that the President is lying. You'll never convince all of them. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try to convince any of them.

ETA: It's really a sort of ongoing education issue, not dissimilar to JREF's efforts to convince people that it is impossible to bend spoons using mind power. Of course it was debunked decades ago, but someone has heard something somewhere that "they" showed in "scientific studies" that ESP really exists, so you constantly have to play whack-a-mole to keep it down so that there;s some hope of maintaining the scientific world view in general.
__________________
Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?

Last edited by Meadmaker; 9th November 2020 at 07:50 AM.
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 07:36 AM   #177
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 23,116
As for evidence of voter fraud: My lack of understanding of the US ballot system maybe fooling me, but ...

Isn't the Trump claim that mail-in votes were riddled with false votes, and this is the reason for the result?

So, there were some ten million mail-in votes, right?
And Biden is some 4 million votes ahead, right?

Then a random sample of just a few thousand votes would show if this is true.

Hans
__________________
Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.
MRC_Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 07:40 AM   #178
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,806
I have been seeing stuff about comparing votes for the president vs votes for senators, as if it means something.

I mean, aside from "not everyone votes party line," this is Trump. Seriously, we have groups like "NeverTrumpers" and the Lincoln Project, who are solely opposed to Trump. As many keep pointing out, the Lincoln Project are all republicans., and there is no reason to think they didn't vote for Republicans throughout the rest of the ballot. It's just Trump they oppose.

So what's the problem?
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 08:00 AM   #179
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 23,900
Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Fox News is reporting that Trump is planning to start rallies again.

Get ready, the circus is coming to town.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/tru...ection-results
How pathetic.

This doesn't end well for him. It's one thing to get a bunch of people behind the President, or even the Next President.

He's going to find that it doesn't work as well for the Last President and new biggest loser. However, I suppose in his mind the 1,000 cheering people, many of whom can read, will be hordes of cheering crowds. He needs that adulation, and he will conjure it in his own mind from whatever pathetic and small group he can gather.

It's genuinely insane.
__________________
Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 08:05 AM   #180
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 21,914
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
As for evidence of voter fraud: My lack of understanding of the US ballot system maybe fooling me, but ...

Isn't the Trump claim that mail-in votes were riddled with false votes, and this is the reason for the result?

So, there were some ten million mail-in votes, right?
And Biden is some 4 million votes ahead, right?

Then a random sample of just a few thousand votes would show if this is true.

Hans
Each county and in some places city prints their own ballots. My ballot had the president my representative in Congress, two county judges, school board reps, and board of supervisors on it. You'd have to have a massive operation to defraud each county or city election system.
__________________
A MAGA hat = a Swastika arm band. A vote for Trump is a vote for treason.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 08:18 AM   #181
slyjoe
Master Poster
 
slyjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ
Posts: 2,382
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Each county and in some places city prints their own ballots. My ballot had the president my representative in Congress, two county judges, school board reps, and board of supervisors on it. You'd have to have a massive operation to defraud each county or city election system.
Exactly right. Maricopa County has multiple ballots due to multiple House reps and the items you cited above. Our ballot was two sided (hence the Sharpiegate issue), larger than legal paper size.
__________________
"You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade
slyjoe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 08:19 AM   #182
Armitage72
Illuminator
 
Armitage72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 4,898
Lindsay Graham is promising to investigate an affidavit from a postal worker in Pennsylvania alleging that his boss discussed backdating ineligible ballots so they could be counted.
The whole thing was started by ... wait for it ... Project Veritas.

If you can't trust them, who can you trust?
Armitage72 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 08:21 AM   #183
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 30,641
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
CTers are never satisfied. The goal isn't to satisfy the critics. It's to satisfy the people who might believe them. It's unfortunate, but I think it has to be done to some level. It's kind of ongoing education.

The President of the United States is saying there's voter fraud. Some people are going to believe him. We need to do something to convince at least some of those people that the President is lying. You'll never convince all of them. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try to convince any of them.

ETA: It's really a sort of ongoing education issue, not dissimilar to JREF's efforts to convince people that it is impossible to bend spoons using mind power. Of course it was debunked decades ago, but someone has heard something somewhere that "they" showed in "scientific studies" that ESP really exists, so you constantly have to play whack-a-mole to keep it down so that there;s some hope of maintaining the scientific world view in general.
Sadly it's not just the President, it's the President and most of the senior people in one of the two major political parties.

I'm not sure how the US goes on from here

If people look hard enough, there will be a few cases of ineptitude, maladministration and even outright fraud, but likely literally an handful and several orders of magnitude fewer than would be required to actually influence the outcome.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 08:24 AM   #184
Skeptic Tank
Trigger Warning
 
Skeptic Tank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,971
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
No, he isn't. His evidence is Trump's word, and that's more than enough evidence for him. Courts of law see things very differently, of course, but to the worshipper the Word alone is sufficient.

Dave
Amusingly, you are way off the mark.

Trump himself I pay almost no attention to. The man is a buffoon and I would place very high odds on him letting snakes like Jared and others talk him out of actually pursuing this to its conclusion even if the evidence and case is rock solid.

Giuliani has plenty of issues himself, and seems like a bit of a weirdo, but he at least exudes a focus and an intelligence and a consistency Trump does not.

If Trump had been a sharper man, he could have gotten so much done the last 4 years and could have easily secured another term either in spite of any fraud, or because he took the proper steps leading up to the election to make said fraud impossible.

He has spent his term doing little adjustments, promising things that never come, and spinning his wheels. I believe elements of the entrenched power structure and snakes like Jared / fools like Ivanka have neutralized him to a large extent. The goal was to make him have as little impact as possible during his presidency, and sadly there was a lot of success in that effort.

I don't know if Jared and Ivanka are just liberals whose personal stupidities / beliefs led them to seek to counter Trump's every good instinct, or if something more sinister and deliberate was behind it. I would be far more inclined to believe foolishness on the part of her, and maliciousness on the part of him - but it could be any combination, and those two are far from the only such figures who've been present.

Trump is too thin skinned, too reactive, too stupid and too malleable to have stood up to the intense focused efforts of an entire system to neutralize him.

I do not worship Trump, I merely approve of some of the things he stood for, or represented, or promised. I would have liked to have seen him achieve more, and hopefully he'll get another 4 years to achieve another 5% of what he should have, I guess that's better than nothing.

Now if you want to talk about a President I could truly respect and who I believe would have all the attributes Trump lacks? Tucker Carlson would be an excellent choice. The man is still nowhere near as extreme on some issues as I would want him to be, but he is intelligent, principled, focused and right on 90% of stuff.
Skeptic Tank is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 08:29 AM   #185
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,696
So you don't hate Trump for being a racist, xenophobic, nationalist, fear-monger, you just hate that he's not effective at it.
__________________
- No, someone having reality and facts on their side does not mean they have been given an unfair advantage and it is not a bias against you. You're just wrong.
- There is no Overton Window for facts.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 08:29 AM   #186
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 13,843
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I personally have seen enough evidence going around to put us well beyond the point of justifying a careful, deliberate look and recount in specific states.
What evidence? Please be very, very specific.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 08:30 AM   #187
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,696
Even the best Trump could come up with is

- 53 votes
- My poll observers were standing a couple of feet too far away
- The types of pen used.

I can't imagine any of his followers doing better.
__________________
- No, someone having reality and facts on their side does not mean they have been given an unfair advantage and it is not a bias against you. You're just wrong.
- There is no Overton Window for facts.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 08:31 AM   #188
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,806
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
What evidence? Please be very, very specific.
And remember, these are things that he has "personally seen."

Not "heard about it on Fox News" or facebook

I've already relayed the story of the voter fraud that I have _personally seen_

I doubt that the poster will have anything near to that level of personal experience.
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 08:33 AM   #189
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,806
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Even the best Trump could come up with is

- 53 votes
- My poll observers were standing a couple of feet too far away
- The types of pen used.

I can't imagine any of his followers doing better.
And the "type of pen used" is already a failure.
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 08:34 AM   #190
slyjoe
Master Poster
 
slyjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ
Posts: 2,382
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Even the best Trump could come up with is

- 53 votes
- My poll observers were standing a couple of feet too far away
- The types of pen used.

I can't imagine any of his followers doing better.
FTFY. Sharpiegate lawsuit was dropped.

ETA: Ninja'ed.
__________________
"You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade
slyjoe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 08:38 AM   #191
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 7,084
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Now if you want to talk about a President I could truly respect and who I believe would have all the attributes Trump lacks? Tucker Carlson would be an excellent choice. The man is still nowhere near as extreme on some issues as I would want him to be, but he is intelligent, principled, focused and right on 90% of stuff.
Interesting.

Are you or are you not aware that Carlson was sued earlier this year for stating nasty and harmfully false claims about a person and that Fox's defense was, quite simply, that no rational and well informed viewer would believe the things that Carlson says - and proceeded to prove that claim so well that they won the case. In other words, Fox News is calling you an ignorant, gullible fool.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

Last edited by Aridas; 9th November 2020 at 08:41 AM.
Aridas is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 08:45 AM   #192
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 23,900
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Sadly it's not just the President, it's the President and most of the senior people in one of the two major political parties.
Fortunately, it isn't.

Most Republicans are abandoning him. A few are echoing his claims of fraud, but most are either remaining silent or giving non-committal "We should look into this." comments. A few of them are actually speaking out and saying that the claims are hogwash, in so many words.

On TV or in media, they have to present talking heads, and they don't put up the talking heads in proportion to the actual numbers, but, really, very few people are going along with these claims.

I wish there were more that were in the "hogwash" camp, but they don't want to alienate their base. That's unfortunate. Leaders should lead, not follow, but there it is. I think a huge source of the problem is really the partisan media is doing the same thing. Shows which people accept as information outlets don't want to alienate viewers/listeners/readers, so even if they don't believe the fraud claims, they know that their listeners will desert them if they dare to question the party line.

I say "listeners" because I tuned in Rush on Friday. You could tell he didn't believe the fraud claims, but he echoed them. Because the partisan media forces know that their listeners or viewers depend on them to package the news in such a way that it reinforces the listeners' world view, instead of informing them, they provide what the market demands. Unfortunately it means a lot of people never get the truth.

ETA: On that note, I find it hilarious that pro-Trump crowds are chanting "Fox News Sucks". Fox dipped their tow into the waters of truth by actually reporting news as it really was, instead of what Trump wanted it to be, and their base was not happy with them at all.
__________________
Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?

Last edited by Meadmaker; 9th November 2020 at 08:49 AM.
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 08:46 AM   #193
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 16,382
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I have been seeing stuff about comparing votes for the president vs votes for senators, as if it means something.

I mean, aside from "not everyone votes party line," this is Trump. Seriously, we have groups like "NeverTrumpers" and the Lincoln Project, who are solely opposed to Trump. As many keep pointing out, the Lincoln Project are all republicans., and there is no reason to think they didn't vote for Republicans throughout the rest of the ballot. It's just Trump they oppose.
Minor point: I don't disagree that some republicans voted for a republican for senate while also voting for Biden.

But, the Lincoln project did more than just attack Trump.

From: Wikipedia
...the Lincoln Project has also created ads backing Democrats in other races, such as an ad in Montana promoting Governor Steve Bullock's Senate candidacy against incumbent Republican Steve Daines. Additionally, they have released videos attacking Republican Senators Cory Gardner, Martha McSally, Thom Tillis, Susan Collins, Joni Ernst and Majority Leader Mitch McConnell...
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 08:48 AM   #194
Paul2
Philosopher
 
Paul2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,225
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
I have a better idea. Chuck him into a dungeon, and forget about him.
"The key to your cell? Yeah, it's right . . . . Hmmm, I thought it was right here. Now, where did I put that? Is it . . . no, it's not there. Hang on a sec, I'll be right back, I'm sure it's around here somewhere!"
__________________
It's nice to be nice to the nice.

Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell
Paul2 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 08:48 AM   #195
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 19,975
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post

I wish there were more that were in the "hogwash" camp, but they don't want to alienate their base. That's unfortunate. Leaders should lead, not follow, but there it is.
They are not leaders, they are representatives.

What loser takes their cues from a politician?
BobTheCoward is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 08:49 AM   #196
Skeptic Tank
Trigger Warning
 
Skeptic Tank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,971
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
What evidence? Please be very, very specific.
Michigan
  • A city worker in Detroit claims he and fellow employees were told to back date ballots that came in too late. (Solomon)
  • Antrim county was initially reported as going to Biden. This was so implausible that votes were recounted, and the county went to Trump. The initial miscount was due to "human error."
  • Democrat absentee votes in Oakland county were counted twice. Once corrected, the result of the local election flipped for the Republican.
  • Over 14,000 dead people registered / voted

Pennsylvania
  • Election observers were kept 30 feet from the actual vote counting, meaning they could not see the ballots
  • Statistically impossible voter turnout, and record number of people over 90 years old registering to vote
  • Illegally backdated votes that came in too late

Wisconsin
  • Voter turnout higher than number of registered voters in some areas
  • Election officials tracked down witness addresses for absentee ballots to validate votes, a policy that may be illegal.
  • After the pause in reporting, vote shares shifted in favor of democrats within city wards, meaning this was not due to more democratic areas reporting later, and this was truer the more behind the democrats were in each ward, contrary to what an explanation based on late mail-in voters would predict.
  • Only the state legislature can change election procedures, but election officials allowed potentially over 100,000 voters to bypass ID requirements by claiming that COVID prevented them from leaving home.

Arizona
  • Based on sworn testimony, it is alleged that ballots in Maricopa county featuring "over-voting" were invalidated rather than fixed. (Singman)

Georgia
  • Illegal ballot harvesting

And then there are things like this:



And other things I'm seeing allegations about which I haven't included here.

So when I say I've seen evidence that leads me to believe careful recounts and audits are in order, I'm not literally saying like "oh a whistleblower showed up at my house and we sat down and looked at a couple hundred thousand ballots together and they looked fishy to me" - obviously. I'm saying I am seeing allegations (and not seeing convincing refutations of most of them) that, if proven true, are quite serious and these issues to me seem to obviously necessitate an investigation. I don't think that's a huge claim to make.
Skeptic Tank is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 08:49 AM   #197
Dr.Sid
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic
Posts: 3,092
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
They are not leaders, they are representatives.

What loser takes their cues from a politician?
Haha .. good point !
Dr.Sid is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 08:49 AM   #198
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,696
If every state that went Red/Blue for the President also went Red/Blue for the House and Congress we would never have party conflict because one party would also be in power and let me just check history real quick... yeah that doesn't happen very often.

There's some X factor (and no I don't think mid-term elections are it or at least all of it) that keeps people from voting a single party into power across the Presidency/House/Senate.
__________________
- No, someone having reality and facts on their side does not mean they have been given an unfair advantage and it is not a bias against you. You're just wrong.
- There is no Overton Window for facts.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 08:50 AM   #199
shemp
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
 
shemp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X
Posts: 38,642
‘I loved John McCain’: Inside Arizona’s GOP movement to defeat Donald Trump


Quote:
PHOENIX — Two years and two months before Arizona’s rebuke of President Donald Trump, hundreds of Republican leaders of the Grand Canyon State crowded into North Phoenix Baptist Church to bid farewell to their hero and mentor, John McCain.

They were met with a tearful eulogy from a special friend of McCain’s.

“My name is Joe Biden. I’m a Democrat. And I loved John McCain,” the former vice president began, sharing anecdotes from their decades-long friendship and recounting their bipartisan victories in the Senate. He called McCain his “brother” and lauded his heroic American story, “grounded in respect and decency.”


Many in the audience had already been riled up by Trump’s famous dismissal of McCain’s years as a POW — “I like people who weren’t captured.” They’d been appalled when, just months earlier, a Trump White House aide allegedly dismissed the opinion of the cancer-stricken McCain because “he’s dying anyway.” They'd been enraged that, two days before the memorial service, Trump had again attacked McCain after reports of his refusal to lower American flags in his honor.

On Election Day, many of them — led by McCain’s widow, Cindy — took revenge: Arizona is on target to choose a Democrat — Biden — for the first time in almost 25 years. Biden's early lead was such that Fox News declared him the winner in the Grand Canyon State on Tuesday, altering the electoral math and pulling the rug out from under Trump’s plans to claim victory in the overall polling before the Biden-leaning mailed ballots were counted in the Midwestern states.
Cheeto McFrito is incapable of understanding that actions have consequences.
__________________
If being a twat was a TV show, Trump would be the boxed set.
"...just as a magnet attracts iron filings, Trump shemp attracts, and is attracted to, louts." - George Will
"[shemp is] a most notable coward, an infinite and endless liar, an hourly promise breaker, the owner of no one good quality." - Shakespeare
shemp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th November 2020, 08:50 AM   #200
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 15,282
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
... Now if you want to talk about a President I could truly respect and who I believe would have all the attributes Trump lacks? Tucker Carlson would be an excellent choice. The man is still nowhere near as extreme on some issues as I would want him to be, but he is intelligent, principled, focused and right on 90% of stuff.
Funny on more than one level.


__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
My authority is total - Trump
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:26 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.