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Tags Coronavirus , vaccine , vaccines

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Old 10th December 2020, 01:04 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
All these stories are leaving out the most important piece of information, so I assume they don't have it. What were these two people allergic to?
The point is this was not an allergic reaction (so it is said). To give a technical explanation; allergic reactions are triggered by the immune system you eat egg and you have anti-egg antibodies (usually IgE) the binding of the antibody to the egg protein causes the body to release chemicals such as histamine and bradykinin that are the actual cause of the swelling, flushing, drop in blood pressure that occurs in a severe allergic reaction - anaphylaxis. However the chemicals (histamine, bradykinin etc.) can be released by other mechanisms that are not immune mediated and so not allergic. One common trigger in some people are angiotensin converting enzyme inhibitor drugs such as enalapril or ramipril, morphine like drugs can also do this. These can trigger histamine release, but as a direct consequence of the way they work in the body, not because you are allergic to them, you do not have antibodies to the drug. This direct stimulation of histamine release without involvement of the immune system is called an anaphylactoid reaction. A blood test - serum tryptase done at the time of the reaction differentiates the two.

If these people had an anaphylactoid reaction it is irrelevant what they are allergic to, and potentially the reaction could occur in non allergic people.
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Old 10th December 2020, 04:27 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That's probably not true, but...

When you study a new vaccine, you only have the data from the regimen studied.

Not until people start getting a late 2nd dose will data trickle in about longer intervals between doses being effective or not.

Technically you cannot say something is OK when you have no data to back that up.

For other adult vaccines, they usually still work with longer intervals between doses.

But a mRNA vaccine is new on the scene so doses should be given on the recommended schedule until proven effective with other schedules.
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
...let's look at the science.

52% v 95% looks like a no-brainer to me.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/08/h...ne-pfizer.html
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
From the article:

The question was what happens if the second dose is delayed.

The question was not how good is the first dose with no follow up dose.

There was no dispute that the vaccine needed 2 doses for maximum protection.
Interesting. That's what I wanted to know. 52% effective. In that case, probably best to just go based on who is most vulnerable, and those who care for the vulnerable, and front line health care workers, and then so forth and so on.

If it had been 60% or 70% effective with a single dose, then it might make sense at least mathematically to get everyone a first dose before the second one. Except also, even in that case, get the old and otherwise most vulnerable people protected first.

I suspect Japan is going to approve it later than Britain or the US, because they've always been rather slow to approve vaccines compared to other countries. Also, the infection rate and the death toll is lower. I've heard it might not be available here until next spring. There is one Japanese company developing a vaccine, but they are so far behind (I think they are just starting phase 2 trials). By the time they are ready for phase 3, everyone's going already be getting the other vaccines. It's going to be hard to recruit volunteers for a trial when there's already a proven vaccine available and you know you won't be getting a placebo.
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Old 10th December 2020, 10:39 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
The problem is the second dose needs to be given close to the first dose to ensure the immune system produces enough resistance to stop infection, so it's just not possible.
I thought that was a minimum time period between doses of 21 or 28 days. Is there a maximum time period?
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Old 10th December 2020, 10:43 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
I thought that was a minimum time period between doses of 21 or 28 days. Is there a maximum time period?
It's unclear, because it hasn't been tested. Given the doubling of protection with the second shot, I'd imagine keeping it as close to the minimum is going to be standard practice.
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Old 10th December 2020, 11:09 AM   #125
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Interesting article about vaccine development for covid and future threats. Footnote: The Moderna vaccine was actually designed and ready for testing by Jan. 13.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020...ne-design.html
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Old 10th December 2020, 01:26 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Interesting. That's what I wanted to know. 52% effective. In that case, probably best to just go based on who is most vulnerable, and those who care for the vulnerable, and front line health care workers, and then so forth and so on.

If it had been 60% or 70% effective with a single dose, then it might make sense at least mathematically to get everyone a first dose before the second one. Except also, even in that case, get the old and otherwise most vulnerable people protected first.

I suspect Japan is going to approve it later than Britain or the US, because they've always been rather slow to approve vaccines compared to other countries. Also, the infection rate and the death toll is lower. I've heard it might not be available here until next spring. There is one Japanese company developing a vaccine, but they are so far behind (I think they are just starting phase 2 trials). By the time they are ready for phase 3, everyone's going already be getting the other vaccines. It's going to be hard to recruit volunteers for a trial when there's already a proven vaccine available and you know you won't be getting a placebo.
There's an additional problem relying on 50-60% effectiveness with one dose is we don't know how long that immunity lasts. It might only last a month without the second dose.

The effectiveness here is based on some pretty small numbers of COVID cases in a large sample size over a limited time frame. People got the vaccine or placebo. I believe there were about 30K of them. A dozen or so got infected, most of them in the placebo group and of the few who got infected in the vaccine group, none had serious disease. There were two additional factors to consider, one was the length of the study which I believe was only a few months and certainly was no longer than 6 given the time frame developing vaccine.

The second issue which is important to consider is that the people who volunteered to be in this study would have also been on average more cautious trying to prevent infection. I don't imagine many anti-maskers were in the volunteer group.

So when the vaccine manufacturer makes a claim that the vaccine was X% effective, that is based on a study with significant limitations.

If we use the study results as a basis for decision making I think it's a pretty safe bet that an interval for the second dose has some leeway.

So are we better off doubling the number of people we vaccinate early on (knowing there will be enough vaccine for those 2nd doses eventually) or are we better off vaccinating half as many people with both doses?

Another consideration is the vaccine wasn't tested on too many people over 70-80 years old. They tend to have a poorer response to vaccines in general.

If carrying out the vaccine program could divvy people up easily, I would think people over 70 (or 80) and people who are immunocompromised should get 2 doses on schedule, everyone else with intact immune systems should get one dose and a delayed 2nd dose.

Keep in mind all of these people should consider themselves to be potentially contagious if they are exposed to the virus. IOW quarantine rules would be the same.

What will be tricky is knowing when we should open back up. We need to knock the virus down then do meticulous contact tracing. People are going to jump the gun and that might mean it takes longer to knock the virus down.
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Old 10th December 2020, 02:07 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Interesting article about vaccine development for covid and future threats. Footnote: The Moderna vaccine was actually designed and ready for testing by Jan. 13.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020...ne-design.html
There was a link upthread somewhere that the mRNA technology was a decade or more in the making and it was waiting for a problem that it would be good for.
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Old 10th December 2020, 02:08 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
....

If these people had an anaphylactoid reaction it is irrelevant what they are allergic to, and potentially the reaction could occur in non allergic people.
And yet it occurred in two people who used epipens for their serious allergy to something(s).


Other than excluding people with very severe allergic reactions, the guidelines we have here are now saying people should get the vaccine where access to emergency reactions exist. It's a relatively simple solution.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 10th December 2020 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 10th December 2020, 11:44 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And yet it occurred in two people who used epipens for their serious allergy to something(s).


Other than excluding people with very severe allergic reactions, the guidelines we have here are now saying people should get the vaccine where access to emergency reactions exist. It's a relatively simple solution.
Yes people who have serious allergies probably have serious allergies because they are predisposed to have a cataclysmic release of histamine whatever the trigger. People can have immunologically similar allergies but the severity differs.

I was responding to the question 'what were they allergic to?'. I was making the point that the particular allergy was unimportant, since this was not an allergic reaction. Although it may seem nitpicking there is a difference between having an allergic reaction and people who have a history of severe allergies having an increased risk of a non-allergic serious adverse reaction.
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Old 11th December 2020, 09:52 AM   #130
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The US, TV news networks are treating it like a done deal. With maps about where to go in your neighborhood to get an injection and showing a parking lot test run. Yet there will only be enough vaccine available next week for 1% of the population and only enough on order for 15% of the population.
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Old 11th December 2020, 11:56 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
The US, TV news networks are treating it like a done deal. With maps about where to go in your neighborhood to get an injection and showing a parking lot test run. Yet there will only be enough vaccine available next week for 1% of the population and only enough on order for 15% of the population.
TV networks? A parking lot? What state are you in?
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Old 11th December 2020, 12:20 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
TV networks? A parking lot? What state are you in?
TV networks? both CNN & MSNCB
a parking lot? It was near a medical facility in Media, Pennsylvania. It's a rehearsal to check the protocol and to see how long it takes per person. They do not have any vaccine.
I'm in Ohio. why?

Last edited by Speedskater; 11th December 2020 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 11th December 2020, 01:42 PM   #133
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Trump orders FDA chief to approve Pfizer vaccine today or resign.
Quote:
White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows on Friday told Stephen Hahn, the commissioner of the Food and Drug Administration, to submit his resignation if the agency does not clear the nationís first coronavirus vaccine by dayís end, according to people familiar with the situation who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss what happened.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...out&li=BBnb7Kz
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Old 11th December 2020, 01:44 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
TV networks? both CNN & MSNCB
a parking lot? It was near a medical facility in Media, Pennsylvania. It's a rehearsal to check the protocol and to see how long it takes per person. They do not have any vaccine.
I'm in Ohio. why?
I've seen the reports, too. They're practicing for what will be a complex, demanding task. What's the problem? Nobody is telling anybody to report to be vaccinated. Maybe you're confusing drive-through covid testing with practice for vaccine administration?
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Old 11th December 2020, 01:45 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
TV networks? both CNN & MSNCB
a parking lot? It was near a medical facility in Media, Pennsylvania. It's a rehearsal to check the protocol and to see how long it takes per person. They do not have any vaccine.
I'm in Ohio. why?
Because that isn't going to happen. At least not soon enough for such a rehearsal. You need to link to the story here because something isn't right.

Why would they use a parking lot?

I also think you are conflating testing with vaccine.

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Old 11th December 2020, 02:02 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Because that isn't going to happen. At least not soon enough for such a rehearsal. You need to link to the story here because something isn't right.

Why would they use a parking lot?

I also think you are conflating testing with vaccine.

At least one place in Pennsylvania is practicing with drive-through vaccine clinics. It doesn't seem like a bad idea. They're finding out it takes longer than expected.
https://www.msnbc.com/katy-tur/watch...un-97567301634

Last edited by Bob001; 11th December 2020 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 11th December 2020, 02:41 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I've seen the reports, too. They're practicing for what will be a complex, demanding task. What's the problem? Nobody is telling anybody to report to be vaccinated. Maybe you're confusing drive-through covid testing with practice for vaccine administration?
The problem is: the TV network is showing it every hour like it's going to happen any day now. In many ways the news networks are painting a picture that the vaccines will soon be available for almost everyone.
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Old 11th December 2020, 02:45 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
At least one place in Pennsylvania is practicing with drive-through vaccine clinics. It doesn't seem like a bad idea. They're finding out it takes longer than expected.
https://www.msnbc.com/katy-tur/watch...un-97567301634
It's good that they are doing it. It's bad that the network is doing extensive coverage. Although by the time they get enough vaccine for a parking lot clinic, they will have to retrain many of the workers.
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Old 11th December 2020, 07:32 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
It's good that they are doing it. It's bad that the network is doing extensive coverage. Although by the time they get enough vaccine for a parking lot clinic, they will have to retrain many of the workers.
I can't speak for the networks, and indeed it's not out of the question that they're just being stupid about it. Maybe they are just looking for something positive to talk about amidst all the bad news. On the other hand, perhaps they're also trying to normalize the whole idea. If they keep making the point that the state is working hard to make the procedure efficient, and if they keep treating the vaccine as a fait accompli, perhaps it will make people more used to it and willing to accept it.
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Old 11th December 2020, 07:48 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
At least one place in Pennsylvania is practicing with drive-through vaccine clinics. It doesn't seem like a bad idea. They're finding out it takes longer than expected.
https://www.msnbc.com/katy-tur/watch...un-97567301634
That's bizarre. The public won't have access to the vaccine for quite a while. So what are people going to think when they see this stuff then the vaccine isn't available for another month.

The people who had the vaccine reactions didn't have them until the next day. Waiting 15 minutes then driving off when we don't yet know the full extent of the allergic reactions seems a tad worrisome.
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Old 11th December 2020, 07:49 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
The problem is: the TV network is showing it every hour like it's going to happen any day now. In many ways the news networks are painting a picture that the vaccines will soon be available for almost everyone.
Exactly.

Here in WA State the initial vaccine doses are going to the hospitals to vaccinate staff. Locally the hospitals are guaranteeing 20% will go to the Medics and other EMS providers.

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Old 11th December 2020, 11:48 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I can't speak for the networks, and indeed it's not out of the question that they're just being stupid about it. Maybe they are just looking for something positive to talk about amidst all the bad news. On the other hand, perhaps they're also trying to normalize the whole idea. If they keep making the point that the state is working hard to make the procedure efficient, and if they keep treating the vaccine as a fait accompli, perhaps it will make people more used to it and willing to accept it.

Indeed, once paranoid people see others getting it, it will become more normal.

Also, herd immunity will kick in.

I like how the WHO are not recommending compulsory vaccination.

I saw a spokesperson say what I'm saying.
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Old 14th December 2020, 07:38 PM   #143
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I wonder if there's a site to track how many jabs have actually been given in real time?

It's an enormous undertaking in terms of just the physical logistics of it all.

I found these articles:

Rollout of Pfizer-BioNTech Covid-19 Vaccine Slows in U.K. Due to Allergic-Reaction Monitoring (Wall Street Journal)
Quote:
LONDON—British doctors say rolling out the Pfizer Inc. -BioNTech SE Covid-19 vaccine beyond hospitals will take longer than anticipated because of logistical challenges and complications thrown up by news in the U.K. of allergic reactions after the injection.

Following two severe allergic reactions on Dec. 8, the first day of the U.K. vaccination campaign last week, doctors were told to monitor patients for 15 minutes after each injection.

Logistical hiccups and the additional time required to monitor patients after a shot have added friction to an already-cumbersome immunization program and could signal challenges to come for the U.S. as health officials start vaccinating patients there.

Extra time required for observation means some U.K. doctors’ offices pulled out of the local vaccination campaign before it started Monday because they don’t have enough space to accommodate people in a socially distanced manner and still deliver the expected number of doses.
Covid-19 Live Updates: U.S. Starts Vaccine Rollout as High-Risk Health Care Workers Go First (NY Times)

Tracking vaccine
distribution, state by state
(Washington Post)

While all of these sites typically have paywalls for most of their content, it seems that you can view these articles even without a subscription. In the case of the Wall Street Journal, there is a pop-up, but you can click the X in the corner to make it go away and still read the article.
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Old 14th December 2020, 08:03 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Trump orders FDA chief to approve Pfizer vaccine today or resign.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...out&li=BBnb7Kz
Pointless posturing.
I assume that if he didn't approve it, it would have to be for a very good reason.

Unnecessary at best. At worst? Well, what if some new information had come to light that ought to be investigated before giving approval?

Quote:
Meadowsís threat followed months of efforts by FDA scientists to try to ward off President Trumpís importuning on the vaccine and keep the review process apolitical and transparent in hopes of boosting public confidence in the shots. The FDA already had planned to clear the vaccine Saturday morning, and accelerating the authorization to Friday night was not expected to change the delivery timeline of the first shots.
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Old 15th December 2020, 06:22 AM   #145
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In the US, it will be a supply and demand problem. Lots of demand and little supply.
Joe Biden pledged about 100 million doses/jabs by May 1st. That means 1 million doses/jabs need to be delivered to hospitals every work day.
With luck there may be a total 15 million doses/jabs available in the next few weeks. But what happens after that?
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Old 15th December 2020, 07:30 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
In the US, it will be a supply and demand problem. Lots of demand and little supply.
Joe Biden pledged about 100 million doses/jabs by May 1st. That means 1 million doses/jabs need to be delivered to hospitals every work day.
With luck there may be a total 15 million doses/jabs available in the next few weeks. But what happens after that?
With over 200,000 people testing positive every day, we need to vaccinate at least 1 million people/ day to get ahead of it. And it takes 2 doses of course.

With over 300 million people, it would take 600 million doses, so 600 days to fully vaccinate everybody at a rate of 1 million jabs per day. That's nearly 2 years.

Can we push it higher? Maybe 2 million jabs per day?
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Old 15th December 2020, 10:31 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The people who had the vaccine reactions didn't have them until the next day.
Are you sure about that?

All I've seen are claims that they had the reaction very soon afterwards, which would make sense.

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/e...id-19-vaccine/

Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
With over 300 million people, it would take 600 million doses, so 600 days to fully vaccinate everybody at a rate of 1 million jabs per day. That's nearly 2 years.

Can we push it higher? Maybe 2 million jabs per day?
Your input must be way out.

Every year 51% of Americans have a 'flu jab in a short time frame with no problems, and it's going to be rolled out in stages, so I don't see much of an issue.
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Old 15th December 2020, 10:56 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Are you sure about that?

All I've seen are claims that they had the reaction very soon afterwards, which would make sense.
I'm sure that's what I read in the report on these reactions. The issue of the epipens is being conflated with the actual reactions these people had.

From your link:
Quote:
Anaphylactoid reactions with Pfizer/BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine: pharmacovigilance perspective and public information needs
Remember that post from Planigale painstakingly describing the difference (with way more detail than necessary and I see hypersensitivity reactions described as allergic on a regular basis) between anaphylaxis and anaphylactoid reactions?

The article says:
Quote:
These individuals developed symptoms of anaphylactoid reaction shortly after receiving the vaccine.
But they don't define "shortly after." It was the next day. I know that was in the report but I'll have to find it again.

The article explains the two kinds of reactions calling them both allergic reactions.
Quote:
Anaphylaxis is an allergic response by the body to external substances such as food, medicines and vaccines. The manifestations of anaphylaxis include effects on the cardiovascular, respiratory, gastrointestinal systems and the skin by way of severe rash. The blood pressure can drop, and breathing can become difficult.

“Treatment is with injectable adrenalin and later with corticosteroids and other supporting measures. Anaphylaxis is well known to occur with some food substances such as peanuts. This is why people who get vaccinated are asked to stay in the place of vaccination for a while to be monitored because anaphylaxis occurs early.

“However, the events that appear to have occurred after the Pfizer vaccine in two people were anaphylactoid reactions, which are allergic reactions that share some of the characteristics of anaphylaxis but are less severe. Prompt treatment was given.

“Both anaphylaxis and anaphylactoid and other allergic reactions are more likely to occur in people who have previous history to allergies.

A simple explanations without a lot of clutter:
Quote:
Anaphylaxis involves a type of antibody called IgE which recognises a specific allergen and triggers the release of chemicals from immune cells on exposure to that allergen. Anaphylactoid reactions trigger the same responses as anaphylaxis but do not involve IgE antibodies.”
I did find with more searching that both reactions can occur right away or later. There is a lot of good information in this article (though it is also very cluttered ) :
NIH: A Reliable Method for the Evaluation of the Anaphylactoid Reaction Caused by Injectable Drugs They do use guinea pigs and nude rats for the model.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 15th December 2020 at 11:19 PM.
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Old 16th December 2020, 12:14 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'm sure that's what I read in the report on these reactions. The issue of the epipens is being conflated with the actual reactions these people had.
My understanding of anaphylactic reactions in general is that they happen pretty quickly.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The article says:But they don't define "shortly after." It was the next day. I know that was in the report but I'll have to find it again.
Try if you can, because "shortly after" doesn't feel like next day to me.
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Old 16th December 2020, 12:26 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'm sure that's what I read in the report on these reactions. The issue of the epipens is being conflated with the actual reactions these people had.

From your link:

Remember that post from Planigale painstakingly describing the difference (with way more detail than necessary and I see hypersensitivity reactions described as allergic on a regular basis) between anaphylaxis and anaphylactoid reactions?

The article says:But they don't define "shortly after." It was the next day. I know that was in the report but I'll have to find it again.

The article explains the two kinds of reactions calling them both allergic reactions.


A simple explanations without a lot of clutter:

I did find with more searching that both reactions can occur right away or later. There is a lot of good information in this article (though it is also very cluttered ) :
NIH: A Reliable Method for the Evaluation of the Anaphylactoid Reaction Caused by Injectable Drugs They do use guinea pigs and nude rats for the model.
I think that if you want to send a message to the general public then it makes sense not to be strict about words, I would hope here that people do understand a release probably written by a 'coms' person may not be scientifically accurate. It is technically incorrect to call anaphylactoid reactions allergic, but for the general public since the reaction is indistinguishable to them from a true allergic reaction then it is reasonable to use this term about what they will see or suffer from*. The reactions were 'immediate' which is why there is a new requirement for people to be observed for 15 minutes post vaccination.

You may think my post was too detailed, and I did apologise for that, but from past experience if I simplify things too much you also criticise my posts! FWIW I could have gone into a lot more detail. I am yet to find the 'Skeptic Ginger" happy place, not too simple, not too complex; just right.

*Also the immediate treatment is the same.

ETA

As you reference says
Quote:
cannot (be utilized to) differentiate anaphylactoid reactions from allergic reactions
my brackets.

Last edited by Planigale; 16th December 2020 at 12:28 AM.
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Old 16th December 2020, 12:42 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
My understanding of anaphylactic reactions in general is that they happen pretty quickly.*



Try if you can, because "shortly after" doesn't feel like next day to me.
*True.

The timing of the reaction is important in identifying anaphylaxis. True anaphylaxis occurs within minutes of exposure usually within 15 but possibly up to an hour. Anaphylactoid reactions may occur at any time (including immediately). A story I hear is someone waking up with e.g. swollen lips / tight throat hours after having a curry, this will be an anaphylactoid reaction as it is too late to be an allergic / anaphylactic reaction. All too often the emergency department doctor has told them (incorrectly) they must have been allergic to something in the curry. On the other hand an anaphylactoid reaction to giving an iv injection of morphine can occur within seconds.
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Old 16th December 2020, 01:07 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I think that if you want to send a message to the general public then it makes sense not to be strict about words, I would hope here that people do understand a release probably written by a 'coms' person may not be scientifically accurate. It is technically incorrect to call anaphylactoid reactions allergic, but for the general public since the reaction is indistinguishable to them from a true allergic reaction then it is reasonable to use this term about what they will see or suffer from*. The reactions were 'immediate' which is why there is a new requirement for people to be observed for 15 minutes post vaccination.
Technically correct or not, I've been hard pressed to find any research article that says technically anaphylactoid is not an allergic reaction.

Bottom line, who cares?

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
You may think my post was too detailed, and I did apologise for that, but from past experience if I simplify things too much you also criticise my posts! FWIW I could have gone into a lot more detail. I am yet to find the 'Skeptic Ginger" happy place, not too simple, not too complex; just right.
Not true. I have criticized a couple of your posts when you had things wrong like saying TB was droplet spread when it isn't. I didn't finish one of our other discussions because one of my two dogs was dying, and when he died there was no point in bumping the thread.

We come from different circles.

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
*Also the immediate treatment is the same.
And that goes with my point, who cares about the molecular chain of events that cause the two different reactions? Making some complicated point that it wasn't an allergic reaction just confuses people. Describing the molecular mechanisms wasn't the issue. Insisting one was not really and allergic reaction was.

In this specific case, the report I read said they had symptoms the next day. I'll post it when I find it.

If/when these vaccine recipients get their second dose, they would be sensitized and could have an anaphylactic reaction. And the caution is legit about observing people after they receive the vaccine.
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Old 16th December 2020, 02:12 AM   #153
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I still don't understand why people are inventing different conspiracy theories. I understand that they have always been and will be, but this is senseless, because if they want to hide something from us, then we will never know about it))
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Old 16th December 2020, 02:05 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
IThe reactions were 'immediate' which is why there is a new requirement for people to be observed for 15 minutes post vaccination.

New?! In my experience, people are always asked to stay for 15-20 minutes after they have been vaccinated.
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Old 16th December 2020, 02:19 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
New?! In my experience, people are always asked to stay for 15-20 minutes after they have been vaccinated.
Not here - for instance flu vaccine is just stuck in the arm and we walk out.
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Old 16th December 2020, 02:49 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
Not here - for instance flu vaccine is just stuck in the arm and we walk out.
Yep, in my time had rabies, yellow fever, polio, meningitis, pneumonia, hepatitis, MMR, DTP, cholera, flu, covid-19 etc. never hung around. (Well except for the last!)
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Old 16th December 2020, 02:54 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
New?! In my experience, people are always asked to stay for 15-20 minutes after they have been vaccinated.
I haven't done that for a long time, like never in the last 30 years. I do make people sit down for the shot and make sure they aren't light headed getting up.

The allergy clinic does when they are doing allergy desensitization. I don't know if they do it for vaccinations.
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Old 16th December 2020, 02:59 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Technically correct or not, I've been hard pressed to find any research article that says technically anaphylactoid is not an allergic reaction.

Bottom line, who cares?

Not true. I have criticized a couple of your posts when you had things wrong like saying TB was droplet spread when it isn't. I didn't finish one of our other discussions because one of my two dogs was dying, and when he died there was no point in bumping the thread.

We come from different circles.

And that goes with my point, who cares about the molecular chain of events that cause the two different reactions? Making some complicated point that it wasn't an allergic reaction just confuses people. Describing the molecular mechanisms wasn't the issue. Insisting one was not really and allergic reaction was.

In this specific case, the report I read said they had symptoms the next day. I'll post it when I find it.

If/when these vaccine recipients get their second dose, they would be sensitized and could have an anaphylactic reaction. And the caution is legit about observing people after they receive the vaccine.
Hey SG could you just correct the CDC about this? On their web site they say,

Quote:
M. tuberculosis is carried in airborne particles, called droplet nuclei, of 1– 5 microns in diameter. Infectious droplet nuclei are generated when persons who have pulmonary or laryngeal TB disease cough, sneeze, shout, or sing.
https://www.cdc.gov/tb/education/cor...f/chapter2.pdf
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Old 16th December 2020, 03:03 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Hey SG could you just correct the CDC about this? On their web site they say,


https://www.cdc.gov/tb/education/cor...f/chapter2.pdf
You need to look up the definition of what "droplet nuclei" are. They aren't what you think they are.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 16th December 2020 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 16th December 2020, 03:12 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
New?! In my experience, people are always asked to stay for 15-20 minutes after they have been vaccinated.
It seems to be variable here; the most recent time, I wasn't asked to wait, but previous ones, at different places, I've been asked to sit for 15 minutes before leaving after a flu jab.
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