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Old 15th December 2021, 06:14 AM   #81
Warp12
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Out of curiosity, of 155 million ballots cast, what fraction do you claim are fraudulent? And how do they break down by Party? And if you have any evidence... a cite?
This is exactly the point. It is impossible to put an exact number on it, but you can say with relative certainty that there are more cases than those that are detected and prosecuted. That is common sense and holds true for pretty much every crime you can think of.

The same goes for determining actual party affiliation numbers. But that doesn't matter to anyone, does it? All people around here want to do is dance around like monkeys while shouting about how wicked the GOP is. To hear them tell it, it is constitutionally impossible for a Dem to commit election fraud, on any level.

I personally don't think any widespread organized election fraud took place. Certainly isolated cases did, and they obviously would not all be in Republican interests. But, with so much amazing virtue in the hearts of all Democrats, it can be hard for some of them to accept such a thing.
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Old 15th December 2021, 06:28 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
This is exactly the point. It is impossible to put an exact number on it, but you can say with relative certainty that there are more cases than those that are detected and prosecuted. That is common sense and holds true for pretty much every crime you can think of.

The same goes for determining actual party affiliation numbers. But that doesn't matter to anyone, does it? All people around here want to do is dance around like monkeys while shouting about how wicked the GOP is. To hear them tell it, it is constitutionally impossible for a Dem to commit election fraud, on any level.

I personally don't think any widespread organized election fraud took place. Certainly isolated cases did, and they obviously would not all be in Republican interests. But, with so much amazing virtue in the hearts of all Democrats, it can be hard for some of them to accept such a thing.
You are missing the fundamental reasons that voter fraud is rare:

1. There is little advantage to the type of voter fraud that an individual can achieve;
2. There is a high likelihood of individual voter fraud being detected; and
3. The penalties for voter fraud are severe.

The only way to overcome that mix of disincentives is to pretend like one or more of those facts aren’t true. Hence, when the GQP tells its voters that voter fraud has an impact, is easy to achieve, and impossible to detect, the poor voters sometimes believe them.

I am having a hard time thinking of any other crime that has so little personal payoff, is as easy to detect, and has anywhere near the punishment. It is an outlier, by design.
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Old 15th December 2021, 06:46 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
This is exactly the point. It is impossible to put an exact number on it, but you can say with relative certainty that there are more cases than those that are detected and prosecuted. That is common sense and holds true for pretty much every crime you can think of.

The same goes for determining actual party affiliation numbers. But that doesn't matter to anyone, does it? All people around here want to do is dance around like monkeys while shouting about how wicked the GOP is. To hear them tell it, it is constitutionally impossible for a Dem to commit election fraud, on any level.

I personally don't think any widespread organized election fraud took place. Certainly isolated cases did, and they obviously would not all be in Republican interests. But, with so much amazing virtue in the hearts of all Democrats, it can be hard for some of them to accept such a thing.
So you categorically disagree with the Trump Homeland Security and with all Republican Secretaries of State in all Red States?
And you are basing that on a feeling of "relative certainty" and "common sense" ?

Why don't you ask the people who actually run elections what they think instead of doing an armchair diagnosis?
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Old 15th December 2021, 07:38 AM   #84
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Let us remember that Republican "Common Sense" told them there should be hordes of GOP voters in...North Philadelphia...
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Old 15th December 2021, 07:40 AM   #85
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Texas cop that ran a repairman off the road and held at gunpoint indicted. He was convinced the man was delivering fraudulent ballots.

Quote:
A Harris County grand jury indicted a former Houston police officer for a felony assault charge for his role in a bogus pre-election fraud incident.

Former police captain Mark Aguirre was indicted for aggravated assault with a deadly weapon in a case being prosecuted by the Public Corruption Division of the Harris County District Attorney’s Office. The second-degree felony is punishable by up to 20 years in prison.
https://www.kxan.com/news/texas/form...confrontation/


Quote:
According to a previously filed court document describing probable cause for the charge, Aguirre told police shortly after the Oct. 19 incident that he was part of a group of private citizens called “Liberty Center,” who were conducting a civilian investigation into an alleged ballot scheme.

Aguirre said he had been conducting surveillance on the victim for four days under the theory the victim was the mastermind of a giant fraud, and there were 750,000 fraudulent ballots in a truck that he was driving for his business, according to the document. Instead, the victim turned out to be an innocent, air-conditioner repairman.
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Old 15th December 2021, 08:06 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
This is exactly the point. It is impossible to put an exact number on it, but you can say with relative certainty that there are more cases than those that are detected and prosecuted. That is common sense and holds true for pretty much every crime you can think of.
So basically your entire rant here is over a "no ****" statement? You built a strawman of my statement for this? Of course there are might be a few cases of voter fraud here and there. Like you said, that's pretty much true of any crime. There is a common saying in the criminal world, "There are people that are criminals, and people who haven't gotten caught". I mean, ******* duh. This is your epiphany that you didn't think anyone else was keen to? You seriously have an inflated sense of self.

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
The same goes for determining actual party affiliation numbers. But that doesn't matter to anyone, does it? All people around here want to do is dance around like monkeys while shouting about how wicked the GOP is. To hear them tell it, it is constitutionally impossible for a Dem to commit election fraud, on any level.
Do strawmen make you feel good? Do you feel people around here are taking these seriously? Who are you arguing against here? Who has said that party affiliation numbers are rock solid? Who has said Dems don't commit election fraud? Are you just mad that GOP voters are in the news right now for it?

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I personally don't think any widespread organized election fraud took place.
Again, no ****. No one with half a brain thinks that because it's a stupid belief that is believed by stupid people.

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Certainly isolated cases did, and they obviously would not all be in Republican interests.
Great, we're doing good so far. Everyone is in agreement.

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
But, with so much amazing virtue in the hearts of all Democrats, it can be hard for some of them to accept such a thing.
Ooohh crashed and burned. I think the difference you'll find between the Dems and the more right leaning members of this forum, is that when there is a case of voter fraud for Dems, we all agree it should be prosecuted, and the people should go to jail. We don't stamp our little feet, and shake our balled up little fists, and go on a tantrum with a long drawn out whataboutism to make ourselves feel better. It's as simple as "Dem committed voter fraud." "Prosecute and punish them."

That's it, nothing more. No one defends it.
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Old 15th December 2021, 08:28 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post

I personally don't think any widespread organized election fraud took place. Certainly isolated cases did, and they obviously would not all be in Republican interests. But, with so much amazing virtue in the hearts of all Democrats, it can be hard for some of them to accept such a thing.
Wow.

It is certain that some voter fraud has happened and people got away with it. However, there is no evidence that any amount significant enough to sway an election has happened. What you're arguing is that some people get away with crime, and that is true. It's not enough crime to warrant new laws that would disenfranchise and discourage lawful voting. GOP is constantly passing laws that make it harder and harder for people who likely are Democrat to vote and they do it claiming that voter fraud is a huge problem do be dealt with. It appears you agree that voter fraud isn't a huge problem but I believe you agree with the GOP "voter fraud" laws that they keep passing that just happen to advantage the Republican party.
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Old 15th December 2021, 09:00 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Texas cop that ran a repairman off the road and held at gunpoint indicted. He was convinced the man was delivering fraudulent ballots.



https://www.kxan.com/news/texas/form...confrontation/




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He deserves to get the maximum 20 years and serve every day of it.
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Old 15th December 2021, 09:07 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
He deserves to get the maximum 20 years and serve every day of it.
No I'm sure one of the trolls will explain to us that no this is really a massive miscarriage of justice any second now.
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Old 15th December 2021, 09:24 AM   #90
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A single charge of aggravated assault seems a bit light for me.

He intentionally rammed his vehicle into the repair van, brandished a firearm, and held the man down on the ground. To my count that's two counts of aggravated assault and a false imprisonment, with the potential for a criminal conspiracy if any of the others in this civilian "vote fraud" group were involved in the multi-day stalking of this guy.

Original reporting seems to indicate that he was the paid agent of others in this criminal scheme. Treating this as a single instance of aggravated assault is not justice.

Quote:
Aguirre never told police that he had been paid a total of $266,400 by the Houston-based Liberty Center for God and Country, $211,400 of which was deposited into his account the day after the incident.
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Old 15th December 2021, 09:30 AM   #91
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Sooner or later we've got to start getting legit treason (or similar charges) to stick on these "attack on the democratic process" crimes.
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Old 15th December 2021, 09:37 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Sooner or later we've got to start getting legit treason (or similar charges) to stick on these "attack on the democratic process" crimes.
As important as it is, and it is fundamentally important to civil society, no doubt, the democratic process is not dependent on air conditioning.
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Old 15th December 2021, 09:55 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
This is exactly the point. It is impossible to put an exact number on it, but you can say with relative certainty that there are more cases than those that are detected and prosecuted. That is common sense and holds true for pretty much every crime you can think of.

The same goes for determining actual party affiliation numbers. But that doesn't matter to anyone, does it? All people around here want to do is dance around like monkeys while shouting about how wicked the GOP is. To hear them tell it, it is constitutionally impossible for a Dem to commit election fraud, on any level.

I personally don't think any widespread organized election fraud took place. Certainly isolated cases did, and they obviously would not all be in Republican interests. But, with so much amazing virtue in the hearts of all Democrats, it can be hard for some of them to accept such a thing.
Multiple posts and still no evidence provided of anything in those posts either asserted or implied.
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Old 15th December 2021, 10:01 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Original reporting seems to indicate that he was the paid agent of others in this criminal scheme. Treating this as a single instance of aggravated assault is not justice.
This one is kind of a sticky situation because it might be that the Feds might get involved in this one as well. I'll try to track down the article I was reading, but I want to say an attorney had made an argument that this could involved federal charges.
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Old 15th December 2021, 11:22 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
This is exactly the point. It is impossible to put an exact number on it, but you can say with relative certainty that there are more cases than those that are detected and prosecuted. That is common sense and holds true for pretty much every crime you can think of.

The same goes for determining actual party affiliation numbers. But that doesn't matter to anyone, does it? All people around here want to do is dance around like monkeys while shouting about how wicked the GOP is. To hear them tell it, it is constitutionally impossible for a Dem to commit election fraud, on any level.

I personally don't think any widespread organized election fraud took place. Certainly isolated cases did, and they obviously would not all be in Republican interests. But, with so much amazing virtue in the hearts of all Democrats, it can be hard for some of them to accept such a thing.
As you apparently haven't noticed, the Republican party has spent massive effort claiming that there is widespread voter fraud sufficient to skew the election. They have used these claims to enact and attempt many voter-suppression laws. They have spent hundreds of thousands of tax-payer dollars carrying nonsensical witch hunt investigations into these claims. They have literally used "the Democrats are rigging the election via voter fraud" as an excuse to attempt a violent overthrow of the government.

So, finding almost NO instances of actual voter fraud, and when we do find instances they wind up being fraud BY Trump supports, is quite worth discussing. When the Democrats get to literally kidnapping and murdering due to claiming voter fraud, then we can make fun of them if we find Democrats committing voter fraud, OK?

Though the fact we know perfectly well that the Trump cultists would have been screaming in rage if they'd found even a single, slight instance of Democrat voter fraud, and yet found absolutely NOTHING in all their investigations, leads me to suspect that there's probably LESS total voter fraud than I would have guessed, because if there any vague number of cases, how could they not manage to find even one of them?
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Old 15th December 2021, 11:43 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post

I personally don't think any widespread organized election fraud took place. Certainly isolated cases did, and they obviously would not all be in Republican interests. But, with so much amazing virtue in the hearts of all Democrats, it can be hard for some of them to accept such a thing.
The disparity isn't because Dems are more virtuous, it's that right wingers believe in crackpot conspiracy theory that voter impersonation fraud is something that is very easy to do. People who aren't cuckoo for coco puffs understand that voting twice is an express lane to jail, but right wingers consume too many Facebook memes that they have convinced themselves this is a safe and easy thing to do.

There's all kinds of illegal shenanigans that politicians and others occasionally engage in to try to put a thumb on the electoral scales, it's just that anyone with any grasp on reality knows that voter impersonation fraud isn't really a viable strategy.

Dems aren't more virtuous, it just appears they are less dumb. When they commit electoral fraud, they do better than just trying to sign their dead wife/mom's name on a ballot that is easily traced back to their address.

It's noteworthy that it's always some rube nobody that gets caught doing this. Anyone who actually knows how the system works, like a politician, knows that this is a stupid strategy.

ETA: These people are barely doing better than putting on a wig and cheap mustache and wondering why they got caught trying to vote twice with a crudely photocopied license.
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Old 15th December 2021, 11:56 AM   #97
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Given that we have so many more documented cases of voter Fraud and attempted election interference by Republicans, Blue States should just remove Republicans from the ballot in order to reduce fraud.
That is, after all, what Republicans are most concerned about.
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Old 15th December 2021, 12:01 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Given that we have so many more documented cases of voter Fraud and attempted election interference by Republicans, Blue States should just remove Republicans from the ballot in order to reduce fraud.
That is, after all, what Republicans are most concerned about.
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Old 15th December 2021, 02:38 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Yes, it is funny how Warp takes absence of proof of voter fraud as proof of voter fraud.
The reason Warp12 continues to cite various forms of absence of evidence as though absence of evidence were the best available evidence for Warp12's position is that Warp12 knows the best available evidence for Warp12's position is no evidence at all.
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Old 15th December 2021, 02:55 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger View Post
The reason Warp12 continues to cite various forms of absence of evidence as though absence of evidence were the best available evidence for Warp12's position is that Warp12 knows the best available evidence for Warp12's position is no evidence at all.
It sounds like you are confused about Warp12's position. The best available evidence for Warp12's position is common sense.

Which isn't too common on this forum, unfortunately. Kind a of a letdown, considering the forum name and all.
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Old 15th December 2021, 03:05 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
It sounds like you are confused about Warp12's position. The best available evidence for Warp12's position is common sense.

Which isn't too common on this forum, unfortunately. Kind a of a letdown, considering the forum name and all.
What's the "common sense" here? That some people get away with crime? I think everyone here can agree to that.

However, that justification is not reason to make new laws that end up penalizing citizens who should have every opportunity to vote.
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Old 15th December 2021, 03:07 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
However, that justification is not reason to make new laws that end up penalizing citizens who should have every opportunity to vote.
Did I say I supported anything like that? Of course not.
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Old 15th December 2021, 03:08 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Did I say I supported anything like that? Of course not.
And you aren't a Trump supporter either
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Old 15th December 2021, 03:11 PM   #104
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Insisting on common sense is a poor fallback when you have no evidence for your claim.
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Old 15th December 2021, 03:17 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Insisting on common sense is a poor fallback when you have no evidence for your claim.
What's my claim that you dispute?

1) More voter fraud occurs than is detected and prosecuted?

Common sense will tell you, and statistics show, that many more crimes, of all types, are committed than come to trial.

2) All voter fraud is not committed by Republicans?

Can you really argue against this with a straight face? With 155 million votes cast?

3) No widespread, organized election fraud took place?

Do you dispute this?

The real issue here is that I am not a Dem. So, there is a tendency by some to apply certain assumptions, in very broad strokes, about my underlying beliefs.
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Old 15th December 2021, 09:57 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Texas cop that ran a repairman off the road and held at gunpoint indicted. He was convinced the man was delivering fraudulent ballots.



https://www.kxan.com/news/texas/form...confrontation/
Oh I remember this guy!

If memory serves, once this dweeb had the victim on the ground at gunpoint, an associate of his stole the victim's truck, which police found abandoned a few blocks away. They never caught the associate though; he never came back to meet up with Aguirre once police arrived. Most likely after parking the truck the accomplice had a look in the back himself, realized there wasn't a single ballot back there, and promptly made himself scarce.

Aguirre told police during his interrogation that his "investigation" had determined the victim had a whole crew of illegal immigrants in a shed in his backyard filling out fraudulent ballots, but when the real police had a look all they found was the victim's yard tools.
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Old 15th December 2021, 10:07 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Wow.

It is certain that some voter fraud has happened and people got away with it. However, there is no evidence that any amount significant enough to sway an election has happened. What you're arguing is that some people get away with crime, and that is true. It's not enough crime to warrant new laws that would disenfranchise and discourage lawful voting. GOP is constantly passing laws that make it harder and harder for people who likely are Democrat to vote and they do it claiming that voter fraud is a huge problem do be dealt with. It appears you agree that voter fraud isn't a huge problem but I believe you agree with the GOP "voter fraud" laws that they keep passing that just happen to advantage the Republican party.
I agree with you but I think Stacy Abrams would not.
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Old 16th December 2021, 01:00 AM   #108
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What is more corrosive to democracy? Not getting worked up over the small rate of voter fraud that has essentially zero impact on electoral outcomes, or inventing fraud in order to induce unreasonable fear?

Even if the latter is not attributed to the opposing team, for own partisan designs, it is still far worse. Because it serves the dual purpose of reducing public confidence and providing a pretext to 'fix' a non-existent problem. Any legislation built on a foundation of lies is no legislation at all.
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Old 16th December 2021, 01:02 AM   #109
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Common Sense is another word for "I already know the truth, I don't need data".

Become a Bayesian, for crying out loud!
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Old 16th December 2021, 01:06 AM   #110
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
What is more corrosive to democracy? Not getting worked up over the small rate of voter fraud that has essentially zero impact on electoral outcomes, or inventing fraud in order to induce unreasonable fear?

Even if the latter is not attributed to the opposing team, for own partisan designs, it is still far worse. Because it serves the dual purpose of reducing public confidence and providing a pretext to 'fix' a non-existent problem. Any legislation built on a foundation of lies is no legislation at all.
what is the greater infringement on your vote: having your vote diluted by a miniscule amount, or not being able to vote at all?
I would postulate that ALL Republican policy positions are based on an absence of the Veil of Ignorance,i.e. they are designed to benefit a special group and hurt over groups: GOP agendas all are designed to further their privilege, which is another way to say that they are aimed to divide the country further.
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Old 16th December 2021, 03:40 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Common Sense is another word for "I already know the truth, I don't need data".

Become a Bayesian, for crying out loud!
Remember when the Trumpettes were whining about Benford's Law and how that "proved" Trump had won? IIRR it was Larry Correia who started that nonsense, but we had posters here further demonstrating their abject ignorance.
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Old 16th December 2021, 05:48 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Oh I remember this guy!

If memory serves, once this dweeb had the victim on the ground at gunpoint, an associate of his stole the victim's truck, which police found abandoned a few blocks away. They never caught the associate though; he never came back to meet up with Aguirre once police arrived. Most likely after parking the truck the accomplice had a look in the back himself, realized there wasn't a single ballot back there, and promptly made himself scarce.

Aguirre told police during his interrogation that his "investigation" had determined the victim had a whole crew of illegal immigrants in a shed in his backyard filling out fraudulent ballots, but when the real police had a look all they found was the victim's yard tools.
I had totally forgotten about that. I can't find anything about this unidentified accomplice. I guess the goon had the good sense to keep his mouth shut and not implicate his accomplice.

Lol I imagine a went a bit like this. He thought he was helping his buddy bust a huge vote rigging scheme wide open, helped with the armed hijacking, took the truck down the road a bit before looking in the back only to find repair equipment. Apparently he pretty quickly realized how bad he screwed up because he made himself scarce before the cops showed up. Going from Hero to guy committing an armed kidnapping must have been one hell of a whiplash.

Yeah, so it's obviously a criminal conspiracy. You would hope that the people funding this goon would also be facing criminal charges, but its entirely possible the system will just grind this guy into dust and call it a done deal.
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Old 16th December 2021, 07:00 AM   #113
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It’s stories like this that make me hesitant when my one sketchy friend asks me to help him take his truck to the shop.
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Old 16th December 2021, 07:32 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I had totally forgotten about that. I can't find anything about this unidentified accomplice. I guess the goon had the good sense to keep his mouth shut and not implicate his accomplice.

Lol I imagine a went a bit like this. He thought he was helping his buddy bust a huge vote rigging scheme wide open, helped with the armed hijacking, took the truck down the road a bit before looking in the back only to find repair equipment. Apparently he pretty quickly realized how bad he screwed up because he made himself scarce before the cops showed up. Going from Hero to guy committing an armed kidnapping must have been one hell of a whiplash.


No, no. The mysterious associate was actually a Democrat plant. Once he drove the truck away, he removed all of the fake ballots so they could be distributed elsewhere and the empty truck would discredit the brave patriot. Don't you see?!? It's so obvious!!
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Old 16th December 2021, 08:18 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
I agree with you but I think Stacy Abrams would not.
You think Stacy Abrams supports all the new "voter fraud" laws that the GOP keep passing?
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
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Old 16th December 2021, 10:19 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
What's my claim that you dispute?

1) More voter fraud occurs than is detected and prosecuted?

Common sense will tell you, and statistics show, that many more crimes, of all types, are committed than come to trial.

2) All voter fraud is not committed by Republicans?

Can you really argue against this with a straight face? With 155 million votes cast?

3) No widespread, organized election fraud took place?

Do you dispute this?

The real issue here is that I am not a Dem. So, there is a tendency by some to apply certain assumptions, in very broad strokes, about my underlying beliefs.
I'm not aware that anyone made claims to the contrary that necessitated these claims from you in the first place. You seem to be arguing with no one about nothing.

As to whatever larger point you think you're making, that requires articulation and citation.
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Old 16th December 2021, 10:56 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I'm not aware that anyone made claims to the contrary that necessitated these claims from you in the first place. You seem to be arguing with no one about nothing.

As to whatever larger point you think you're making, that requires articulation and citation.
There is no larger point. There is no point at all, really.
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Old 16th December 2021, 11:49 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
As to whatever larger point you think you're making, that requires articulation and citation.
The Republican narrative was being contradicted, so a white knight had to show up.
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Old 16th December 2021, 12:06 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I'm not aware that anyone made claims to the contrary that necessitated these claims from you in the first place. You seem to be arguing with no one about nothing.

As to whatever larger point you think you're making, that requires articulation and citation.
That's what I came away with from it too. Has someone said anything to the contrary?

At the end of those statements all you can do is say, "No **** man".

I think he's trying to say that when "many more" of the crimes happen, in this case, that means that there was more voter fraud than we have seen. Which, no **** man. I think he's then confusing that with people saying "there wasn't significant voter fraud to make a difference", and here we are. Someone screaming at the clouds about something no one is arguing with him about.
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Old 16th December 2021, 12:19 PM   #120
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Arguing and then denying there's any argument to be had is well worn trolling tactic. Not sure what's shocking about seeing it here.
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