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Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , election conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump supporters

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Old 12th January 2022, 02:48 PM   #41
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I went through all 45 pages of this. Every person who signed these or can be proven to have been involved in any way should be thrown in prison for life.
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Old 12th January 2022, 03:27 PM   #42
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Assuming this is all true, this is at least straight-up election fraud, right?
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Old 12th January 2022, 03:31 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Assuming this is all true, this is at least straight-up election fraud, right?
I lean to seditious conspiracy. I'm not sure election fraud is actually a statute.
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Old 12th January 2022, 04:40 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
I lean to seditious conspiracy. I'm not sure election fraud is actually a statute.
Why not both?
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Old 12th January 2022, 04:52 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Is that actually correct? The article says "from" not "by". It says the documents were assembled by groups of Trump supporters, not by the states themselves.
That's fair, but a lot of the signatories were officials in some capacity.
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Old 12th January 2022, 05:02 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
We have Trump strong-arming the Georgia Secretary of the State to "find" 11,780 votes. We have right wing terrorist storming the Capitol in a violent insurrection. We have pro-Trump groups forging elector documents.

Where in any of that are these people "mistaken about the rules"?
Because Trump,as a party to a hearing between lawyers with Georgia in his role as a candidate, can make dumb requests.
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Old 12th January 2022, 05:04 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
It's a coup because the reasons to not certify and Jan 6 and send it back to the states were ginned up, made up, fabricated, invented, created, imagined, . . . .

I just broke by thesaurus.
Well, prophets make up stuff all the time, but they believe them honestly (not in all cases).
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Old 12th January 2022, 05:31 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
That's fair, but a lot of the signatories were officials in some capacity.
Really? Do you know of an example? BTW What put this back in the news?

ETA: I guess I should rephrase that to: What brought this to your attention. Your link is from last March which is a couple months after these activities were first detected.

Last edited by RecoveringYuppy; 12th January 2022 at 05:39 PM.
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Old 12th January 2022, 06:04 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Really? Do you know of an example? BTW What put this back in the news?

ETA: I guess I should rephrase that to: What brought this to your attention. Your link is from last March which is a couple months after these activities were first detected.
I saw a bunch of online chatter about it; I guess Rachel Maddow showed the fake certificates from 5 states on screen last night. Also, I think some info came to the J6 committee recently about how Trump knew a few weeks before the certification date that these false certificates had been sent.
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Old 12th January 2022, 06:07 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Because Trump,as a party to a hearing between lawyers with Georgia in his role as a candidate, can make dumb requests.
You're very generous with the "I didn't know I couldn't do that" defense. Probably to the point that anything further you have to say on the issue should not be taken seriously.
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Old 12th January 2022, 06:20 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Well, prophets make up stuff all the time, but they believe them honestly (not in all cases).
Therefore. . . . What?
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Old 12th January 2022, 06:22 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
Therefore. . . . What?
You're a glutton for punishment, aren't ya?
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Old 12th January 2022, 06:32 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You're a glutton for punishment, aren't ya?
You have no idea who you’re dealing with. I mean me, not Bob.

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Old 12th January 2022, 06:53 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
That's fair, but a lot of the signatories were officials in some capacity.
Really? Do you know of an example?
Here is one.

Arizona Republican who signed phony 'certification' saying Trump won flees from reporter's questioning


Quote:
On Tuesday, Arizona state Rep. Jake Hoffman, one of the Republicans who signed a fake election "certification" alleging that he was a Republican elector appointed for former President Donald Trump's nonexistent victory in Arizona, turned away from a reporter with 12 News trying to ask him about his role in the forgery.

The reporter caught up with Hoffman and demanded he explain how he had authority as an elector, he said, "in unprecedented times, unprecedented action does occur."
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Old 12th January 2022, 07:08 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
You're very generous with the "I didn't know I couldn't do that" defense. Probably to the point that anything further you have to say on the issue should not be taken seriously.
In his role at the time, he could make the claim he did.
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Old 12th January 2022, 07:10 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Here is one.
Oh, thanks. I thought you meant election officials. Got it.
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Old 12th January 2022, 08:03 PM   #57
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I haven’t gone through all of them, but I would imagine some of these state reps and state senators who essentially forged election certificates could be in a little trouble. A girl can dream anyway.
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Old 12th January 2022, 11:37 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
In his role at the time, he could make the claim he did.
He absolutely COULD NOT legally make the request he made, which was "to find" just enough votes to make him the winner.
Not to do a recount, not to annull the election, but to change the result until it gives him a majority.
This was an ask to Raffensburger to certify a result both Raffensburger AND Trump knew were incorrect.

This was a clear case of coercion to commit election fraud, and it needs to get litigated in Court.
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Old 13th January 2022, 12:23 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
You have no idea who you’re dealing with. I mean me, not Bob.

What happened to Paul1?

Your optimism is admirable. BTC is an android lacking an emotion chip. And its logic routines have got corrupted to be dominated by the sub-routines, now melded, Devil's Advocate and Obstreporous Contrarian.
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Old 13th January 2022, 05:18 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
What happened to Paul1?

Your optimism is admirable. BTC is an android lacking an emotion chip. And its logic routines have got corrupted to be dominated by the sub-routines, now melded, Devil's Advocate and Obstreporous Contrarian.
You could have just said Libertarian
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Old 13th January 2022, 05:28 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
He absolutely COULD NOT legally make the request he made, which was "to find" just enough votes to make him the winner.
Not to do a recount, not to annull the election, but to change the result until it gives him a majority.
This was an ask to Raffensburger to certify a result both Raffensburger AND Trump knew were incorrect.

This was a clear case of coercion to commit election fraud, and it needs to get litigated in Court.
In his capacity as a person making a request during that meeting, he is free to ask them to find the votes.
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Old 13th January 2022, 05:47 AM   #62
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Trump popularity past presidency
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...yes-its-early/

Since he has nothing new to add, just continuing the coup and the 2020 election, the 2024 election is going to be like the 2020, more or less. Take maybe 10% off Biden votes overall, as he has "failed" according to impatient voters. Also take 30% off if there is no voting law.

Biden with a Republican senate and house in 2025 we can handle. Trump in 2025, no. Trump in 2025 is like another 4 years of covid.
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Old 13th January 2022, 05:53 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
Trump popularity past presidency
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...yes-its-early/

Since he has nothing new to add, just continuing the coup and the 2020 election, the 2024 election is going to be like the 2020, more or less. Take maybe 10% off Biden votes overall, as he has "failed" according to impatient voters. Also take 30% off if there is no voting law.

Biden with a Republican senate and house in 2025 we can handle. Trump in 2025, no. Trump in 2025 is like another 4 years of covid.
COVID is worse under Biden than Trump.
Biden made a lot of claims about beating COVID that he failed to do.
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Old 13th January 2022, 06:23 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
He absolutely COULD NOT legally make the request he made, which was "to find" just enough votes to make him the winner.
Not to do a recount, not to annull the election, but to change the result until it gives him a majority.
This was an ask to Raffensburger to certify a result both Raffensburger AND Trump knew were incorrect.

This was a clear case of coercion to commit election fraud, and it needs to get litigated in Court.
Accompanied by a threat of course.
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Old 13th January 2022, 06:38 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
COVID is worse under Biden than Trump.
Biden made a lot of claims about beating COVID that he failed to do.
Given the limit of power the President has over States not controlled by his party, I would argue that he did not fail - Red States did.
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Old 13th January 2022, 06:41 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Assuming this is all true, this is at least straight-up election fraud, right?
In a world with facts, sure.

In the world we live in now? No you see it totally isn't because of "made up B.S. reasons trolls will now make us argue about."
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Old 13th January 2022, 07:08 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Given the limit of power the President has over States not controlled by his party, I would argue that he did not fail - Red States did.
Along the lines of “You can lead a horse to water…”

Biden managed to get COVID vaccines universally available for free to all Americans. What was hard to foresee is 60 million or so stubbornly refusing to protect themselves. With predictable results:



Hard to pin that on him, unless one proposes he’s falling short by not taking the draconian step of forced vaccinations. Which itself would elicit howls of protest.
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Old 13th January 2022, 07:30 AM   #68
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US: "Look! We flattened the curve!"
World: "YOU FLATTENED IT ON THE Y AXIS!"
US: "Picky, picky."
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Old 13th January 2022, 07:39 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Along the lines of “You can lead a horse to water…”

Biden managed to get COVID vaccines universally available for free to all Americans. What was hard to foresee is 60 million or so stubbornly refusing to protect themselves. With predictable results:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...a65e4ff8_z.jpg

Hard to pin that on him, unless one proposes he’s falling short by not taking the draconian step of forced vaccinations. Which itself would elicit howls of protest.
Don't say you can do something if you can't.
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Old 13th January 2022, 07:44 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
US: "Look! We flattened the curve!"
World: "YOU FLATTENED IT ON THE Y AXIS!"
US: "Picky, picky."
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Old 13th January 2022, 08:36 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
What happened to Paul1?
Don't say that! That is The-Poster-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named.*


Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Your optimism is admirable. BTC is an android lacking an emotion chip. And its logic routines have got corrupted to be dominated by the sub-routines, now melded, Devil's Advocate and Obstreporous Contrarian.
Wow, haven't seen a DAOC for while. They can be nasty little critters. Thanks for the heads up.






* You're the first poster here to ask me that. [Sniff].
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Old 13th January 2022, 09:01 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Don't say you can do something if you can't.
Me: I'm driving to the store.

*another driver runs red light and t-bones my car*

Bob: Don't say you can do something if you can't.
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Old 13th January 2022, 12:48 PM   #73
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Oath Keeper leader and 10 others charged with seditious conspiracy:
Quote:
Leader of Oath Keepers and 10 Other Individuals Indicted in Federal Court for Seditious Conspiracy and Other Offenses Related to U.S. Capitol Breach
Eight Others Facing Charges in Two Related Cases
A federal grand jury in the District of Columbia returned an indictment yesterday, which was unsealed today, charging 11 defendants with seditious conspiracy and other charges for crimes related to the breach of the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, which disrupted a joint session of the U.S. Congress that was in the process of ascertaining and counting the electoral votes related to the presidential election.

According to court documents, Elmer Stewart Rhodes III, 56, of Granbury, Texas, who is the founder and leader of the Oath Keepers; and Edward Vallejo, 63, of Phoenix, Arizona, are being charged for the first time in connection with events leading up to and including Jan. 6. Rhodes was arrested this morning in Little Elm, Texas, and Vallejo was arrested this morning in Phoenix.

In addition to Rhodes and Vallejo, those named in the indictment include nine previously charged defendants: Thomas Caldwell, 67, of Berryville, Virginia; Joseph Hackett, 51, of Sarasota, Florida; Kenneth Harrelson, 41, of Titusville, Florida; Joshua James, 34, of Arab, Alabama; Kelly Meggs, 52, of Dunnellon, Florida; Roberto Minuta, 37, of Prosper, Texas; David Moerschel, 44, of Punta Gorda, Florida; Brian Ulrich, 44, of Guyton, Georgia and Jessica Watkins, 39, of Woodstock, Ohio. In addition to the earlier charges filed against them, they now face additional counts for seditious conspiracy and other offenses.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/leade...conspiracy-and
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Old 13th January 2022, 01:07 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Then each of the J6ers charged should be facing charges of sedition. Why do you suppose they aren't? Those slow cogs of justice I keep hearing about have done turned for many of them.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Oath Keeper leader and 10 others charged with seditious conspiracy:

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/leade...conspiracy-and
Apparently, the Justice Department doesn't work on Thermal's time schedule.
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Old 13th January 2022, 01:11 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Me: I'm driving to the store.

*another driver runs red light and t-bones my car*

Bob: Don't say you can do something if you can't.
Exactly. if you say you are going to do it, then you are either factoring risk or you don't understand the risks out there, and that is on you.
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Old 13th January 2022, 01:32 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Exactly. if you say you are going to do it, then you are either factoring risk or you don't understand the risks out there, and that is on you.
Yes, because that's exactly how humans communicate and understand language. No one can every say anything with any degree of certainty because of the mathematical possibility that something unforeseen will render their statement untrue.

Another brilliant observation.
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Old 13th January 2022, 01:33 PM   #77
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Now that 11 people have been charged with seditious conspiracy (and possibly more will be), when does it pass from just plain 'conspiracy' to 'grand conspiracy'? There is no legal definition (or any definition I can find) for 'grand conspiracy'.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I doubt it. There was no grand conspiracy here.
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You can call it whatever you want, it remains true. Insulting me won't change that. More investigation won't find what they've been unable to find any trace of so far.

And really, what do you expect? You expect a grand conspiracy spearheaded by the likes of that idiot with a buffalo hat and face paint? That's how you topple the US federal government? Please. They might find a few loons in a basement who "conspired", but there isn't going to be anything else, no matter how long you look.
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What part of "grand" did you not understand? You can charge people for criminal conspiracy even if the conspiracy is small and pathetic. Which those were.
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Old 13th January 2022, 01:35 PM   #78
johnny karate
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Apparently, the Justice Department doesn't work on Thermal's time schedule.
But they're not all facing sedition charges! is probably going to be the disingenuous, bad faith response.
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Old 13th January 2022, 01:36 PM   #79
johnny karate
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Now that 11 people have been charged with seditious conspiracy (and possibly more will be), when does it pass from just plain 'conspiracy' to 'grand conspiracy'? There is no legal definition (or any definition I can find) for 'grand conspiracy'.
Spoiler: It never will. Right wing terrorist sympathizers will continue to play down the events of January 6th like the obedient Fox News drones that they are.
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Old 13th January 2022, 01:39 PM   #80
Thermal
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Apparently, the Justice Department doesn't work on Thermal's time schedule.
Seditious conspiracy to delay/prevent the certification is better than nothing, I suppose. An interesting addendum is that they are charged with continuing to "plot to oppose by force the lawful transfer of power after Jan 6".

Eta: and damn straight they don't work on my timetable. Thermal gets **** done without a year to shuffle paper in circles.
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