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Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , election conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump supporters

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Old 13th January 2022, 01:48 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Eta: and damn straight they don't work on my timetable. Thermal gets **** done without a year to shuffle paper in circles.
That's what I've been saying. You jumped to conclusions while things were still happening. That's not a good thing.
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Old 13th January 2022, 01:49 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Seditious conspiracy to delay/prevent the certification is better than nothing, I suppose. An interesting addendum is that they are charged with continuing to "plot to oppose by force the lawful transfer of power after Jan 6".

Eta: and damn straight they don't work on my timetable. Thermal gets **** done without a year to shuffle paper in circles.
"I was wrong" would have been more direct and to the point.
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Old 13th January 2022, 03:02 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
That's what I've been saying. You jumped to conclusions while things were still happening. That's not a good thing.
And what you've been saying is wrong. I came to preliminary conclusions about the J6ers based on what I saw, while remaining open to new evidence. I have yet to see evidence of a credible coup attempt, with however many qualifiers we are up to. They looked like a bunch of yahoos that didn't know what they were doing. That's what I'm still seeing.

It seems that after a year, a dozen or so are finally up on conspiracy to interfere with the certification. Well, duh. One of the few things we have been able to agree on is that they were trying to interfere. My argument has been that the kind of interference wasn't actually a coup. I believe you know this by now.

You can get all excited about seeing the word "sedition" tied up in the charges. I am too; it shows the DOJ is taking this seriously and not sweeping it under the rug because it is awkward, as has been suggested ITT. Still not what I would call a coup, and certainly not a credible threat, per the Kline Institute's guidelines.

Sedition, btw, was one of the first things I said that Trump should have been charged with, along with inciting imminent lawless action. That still doesn't mean a coup.
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Old 13th January 2022, 03:27 PM   #84
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LOL
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Old 13th January 2022, 03:42 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And what you've been saying is wrong. I came to preliminary conclusions about the J6ers based on what I saw, while remaining open to new evidence. I have yet to see evidence of a credible coup attempt, with however many qualifiers we are up to. They looked like a bunch of yahoos that didn't know what they were doing. That's what I'm still seeing.

It seems that after a year, a dozen or so are finally up on conspiracy to interfere with the certification. Well, duh. One of the few things we have been able to agree on is that they were trying to interfere. My argument has been that the kind of interference wasn't actually a coup. I believe you know this by now.

You can get all excited about seeing the word "sedition" tied up in the charges. I am too; it shows the DOJ is taking this seriously and not sweeping it under the rug because it is awkward, as has been suggested ITT. Still not what I would call a coup, and certainly not a credible threat, per the Kline Institute's guidelines.

Sedition, btw, was one of the first things I said that Trump should have been charged with, along with inciting imminent lawless action. That still doesn't mean a coup.
A violent insurrection is "certainly not a credible threat", but tearing down a statue of Nathan Bedford puts us on a slippery slope into social anarchy.

Yeah, that tracks.
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Old 13th January 2022, 04:51 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And what you've been saying is wrong. I came to preliminary conclusions about the J6ers based on what I saw, while remaining open to new evidence. I have yet to see evidence of a credible coup attempt, with however many qualifiers we are up to. They looked like a bunch of yahoos that didn't know what they were doing. That's what I'm still seeing.


You are so full of it.
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Old 13th January 2022, 05:55 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And what you've been saying is wrong. I came to preliminary conclusions about the J6ers based on what I saw, while remaining open to new evidence. I have yet to see evidence of a credible coup attempt, with however many qualifiers we are up to. They looked like a bunch of yahoos that didn't know what they were doing. That's what I'm still seeing.

It seems that after a year, a dozen or so are finally up on conspiracy to interfere with the certification. Well, duh. One of the few things we have been able to agree on is that they were trying to interfere. My argument has been that the kind of interference wasn't actually a coup. I believe you know this by now.

You can get all excited about seeing the word "sedition" tied up in the charges. I am too; it shows the DOJ is taking this seriously and not sweeping it under the rug because it is awkward, as has been suggested ITT. Still not what I would call a coup, and certainly not a credible threat, per the Kline Institute's guidelines.

Sedition, btw, was one of the first things I said that Trump should have been charged with, along with inciting imminent lawless action. That still doesn't mean a coup.
And what you have been saying is wrong, as what the DOJ has seen is quite different from what you see.

Quote:
It is important to consider that federal law refers to “seditious conspiracy” as opposed to just “sedition.” There is the added burden of proof that an individual must actively be conspiring and taking steps toward a violent action against the government, not just making comments that seem to merely reflect that desire. This is to ensure that First Amendment activity is protected under the Constitution, and only actions that overtly demonstrate individuals’ plans to take dangerous steps toward overthrowing the United States’ constitutional government are charged.
Quote:
Quote:
But there is a reason that many are confident that individuals involved in the riot at the Capitol will be charged on seditious conspiracy, and potentially even insurrection. The violent threats leading up to January 6, the actions taken at the Capitol, and the continued incitement of attacks on state and federal governments demonstrate a persistent and determined assault on U.S. democracy. The charges are serious and unprecedented, but so too are the violent actions that took place.
https://www.csis.org/analysis/unders...n-and-sedition
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Old 14th January 2022, 10:03 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
And what you have been saying is wrong, as what the DOJ has seen is quite different from what you see.



https://www.csis.org/analysis/unders...n-and-sedition
This is the maddening part of this argument. The source you cite is on exactly the same page as I am. Actually, your cite links to the main page, so I took a gamble at what you were referring to. From the article "Understanding Insurrection and Sedition":

Quote:
Generally, sedition is conduct or speech that incites individuals to violently rebel against the authority of the government. Insurrection includes the actual acts of violence and rebellion.
This is what I have been saying since the actual J6. They should be charged with sedition (more properly, seditious conspiracy) and insurrection. But not for an attempted/incompetent/couldn't get anyone on board coup; simply for the violent interfering with our electoral process. A coup is one type of interference, with one objective. Disruption of the process is a different kind.

Please, without scanning my post for a gotcha to argue against, do you understand the point I have been making for a year now? I said during the actual Dildo Storm that the outgoing President should be charged with sedition and inciting imminent lawless action, and that the mad dogs be charged with insurrection (the actual violent acts, per your cited definition). But it was not an actual coup attempt. It was a different and unprecedented kind of insurrection.
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Old 14th January 2022, 11:56 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This is the maddening part of this argument. The source you cite is on exactly the same page as I am. Actually, your cite links to the main page, so I took a gamble at what you were referring to. From the article "Understanding Insurrection and Sedition":

This is what I have been saying since the actual J6. They should be charged with sedition (more properly, seditious conspiracy) and insurrection. But not for an attempted/incompetent/couldn't get anyone on board coup; simply for the violent interfering with our electoral process. A coup is one type of interference, with one objective. Disruption of the process is a different kind.

Please, without scanning my post for a gotcha to argue against, do you understand the point I have been making for a year now? I said during the actual Dildo Storm that the outgoing President should be charged with sedition and inciting imminent lawless action, and that the mad dogs be charged with insurrection (the actual violent acts, per your cited definition). But it was not an actual coup attempt. It was a different and unprecedented kind of insurrection.
You've repeatedly cited the lack of sedition charges as evidence that January 6th doesn't qualify as a coup.

And now that we have sedition charges, it still doesn't qualify because... reasons.
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Old 14th January 2022, 12:01 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
You've repeatedly cited the lack of sedition charges as evidence that January 6th doesn't qualify as a coup.

And now that we have sedition charges, it still doesn't qualify because... reasons.
Yes. It couldn't have been regarded as a coup by the government without sedition charges.

That doesn't mean that sedition charges apply only to a coup, dummy.
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Old 14th January 2022, 12:19 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes. It couldn't have been regarded as a coup by the government without sedition charges.

That doesn't mean that sedition charges apply only to a coup, you devilishly handsome fellow.
You're the one who specifically cited sedition charges as qualifier for a coup. You repeatedly used that as a cudgel to prove January 6th wasn't a coup.

And now that we have actual sedition charges, you apparently just want to pretend that never happened.
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Old 14th January 2022, 12:36 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This is the maddening part of this argument. The source you cite is on exactly the same page as I am. Actually, your cite links to the main page, so I took a gamble at what you were referring to. From the article "Understanding Insurrection and Sedition":



This is what I have been saying since the actual J6. They should be charged with sedition (more properly, seditious conspiracy) and insurrection. But not for an attempted/incompetent/couldn't get anyone on board coup; simply for the violent interfering with our electoral process. A coup is one type of interference, with one objective. Disruption of the process is a different kind.

Please, without scanning my post for a gotcha to argue against, do you understand the point I have been making for a year now? I said during the actual Dildo Storm that the outgoing President should be charged with sedition and inciting imminent lawless action, and that the mad dogs be charged with insurrection (the actual violent acts, per your cited definition). But it was not an actual coup attempt. It was a different and unprecedented kind of insurrection.
What are the necessary and sufficient conditions for an attempted coup?

ETA: Bullet points only, please. We can get into discussion and justification soon enough.
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Old 14th January 2022, 12:41 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
What are the necessary and sufficient conditions for an attempted coup?

ETA: Bullet points only, please. We can get into discussion and justification soon enough.
It appears that there is only one condition that counts.....


success.


Anything that didn't work doesn't count.
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Old 14th January 2022, 12:57 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes. It couldn't have been regarded as a coup by the government without sedition charges.

That doesn't mean that sedition charges apply only to a coup, dummy.
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Old 14th January 2022, 01:09 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Et tu, shempus?

You guys are seriously claiming not to understand that

A. A coup attempt incorporates sedition by necessity
B. Sedition is not limited to a coup attempt

That's really where we are at?
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Old 14th January 2022, 01:10 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
What are the necessary and sufficient conditions for an attempted coup?

ETA: Bullet points only, please. We can get into discussion and justification soon enough.
Nothing different than I've been saying all year, and I really don't see the joy in a further reset and repeat
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Old 14th January 2022, 01:50 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Nothing different than I've been saying all year, and I really don't see the joy in a further reset and repeat
I'm willing to look at your bullet list - which, IIRC, you've never done on this topic - and fairly consider them. Can you not be troubled to even list a few of the necessary and sufficient conditions for an attempted coup?
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Old 14th January 2022, 01:55 PM   #98
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If I understand thermal, he's saying that the sedition of the Oathkeepers was never going to be enough for a Coup, hence it wasn't even an attempt.
Of course, he ignores the next step, which according to multiple sources was for Trump to declare a State of Emergency to prevent certification.
For that, the Oathkeepers were a vital part of the conspiracy.
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Old 14th January 2022, 02:05 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
... Still not what I would call a coup, and certainly not a credible threat, per the Kline Institute's guidelines.
I like to think you're mis-remembering, and not foisting a blatant falsehood. Here's the Cline Center’s conclusion, which I called to your attention in the prior thread.
Using Cline Center definitions, the storming of the US Capitol Building on January 6, 2021 was an attempted coup d’état. At the time of this writing, the Cline Center’s Coup D’état Project classifies the type of attempt as a dissident coup.
You overlaid your concept of what constitutes a credible threat in this gross distortion of Clines's findings.
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Old 14th January 2022, 02:09 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I like to think you're mis-remembering, and not foisting a blatant falsehood. Here's the Cline Center’s conclusion, which I called to your attention in the prior thread.
Using Cline Center definitions, the storming of the US Capitol Building on January 6, 2021 was an attempted coup d’état. At the time of this writing, the Cline Center’s Coup D’état Project classifies the type of attempt as a dissident coup.
You overlaid your concept of what constitutes a credible threat in this gross distortion of Clines's findings.
Ah there it is I was trying to find this post.
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Old 14th January 2022, 02:11 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This is the maddening part of this argument. The source you cite is on exactly the same page as I am. Actually, your cite links to the main page, so I took a gamble at what you were referring to. From the article "Understanding Insurrection and Sedition":



This is what I have been saying since the actual J6. They should be charged with sedition (more properly, seditious conspiracy) and insurrection. But not for an attempted/incompetent/couldn't get anyone on board coup; simply for the violent interfering with our electoral process. A coup is one type of interference, with one objective. Disruption of the process is a different kind.

Please, without scanning my post for a gotcha to argue against, do you understand the point I have been making for a year now? I said during the actual Dildo Storm that the outgoing President should be charged with sedition and inciting imminent lawless action, and that the mad dogs be charged with insurrection (the actual violent acts, per your cited definition). But it was not an actual coup attempt. It was a different and unprecedented kind of insurrection.
No, the "maddening part" of all of this is your continual denial that this was a coup attempt which you have been making for a year now.

Coup: a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.


The full description of 18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy:

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

Charges against the Oathkeepers:
Quote:
“The purpose of the conspiracy,” the indictment alleges, “was to oppose the lawful transfer of presidential power by force.” Rhodes was arrested Thursday in Texas.

The indictment charges that Rhodes and 10 other co-conspirators “coordinated travel across the country to enter Washington, D.C., equipped themselves with a variety of weapons, donned combat and tactical gear, and were prepared to answer Rhodes’s call to take up arms at Rhodes’s direction.” While painting Rhodes as the ringleader, the indictment alleges that “some co-conspirators also amassed firearms on the outskirts of Washington, D.C., distributed them among ‘quick reaction force’ (‘QRF’) teams, and planned to use the firearms in support of their plot to stop the lawful transfer of presidential power.” (Read the full indictment embedded below.)

Did the Oathkeepers intend to "suddenly, violently and illegally seize power from the Congress (government)" by "stopping the lawful transfer of presidential power"?

According to the indictment, YES.

You just can't admit you are wrong so just keep digging the hole deeper and deeper.
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Old 14th January 2022, 02:35 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I like to think you're mis-remembering, and not foisting a blatant falsehood. Here's the Cline Center’s conclusion, which I called to your attention in the prior thread.
Using Cline Center definitions, the storming of the US Capitol Building on January 6, 2021 was an attempted coup d’état. At the time of this writing, the Cline Center’s Coup D’état Project classifies the type of attempt as a dissident coup.
You overlaid your concept of what constitutes a credible threat in this gross distortion of Clines's findings.
Yeah, I brought up the Cline's finding four days before you (http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post13664545) and all I got was a 'certain someone' telling me how wrong Cline was because "That is dated 1/27/21. Well before the FBI investigation. Comical," and because it wasn't "organized". Of course, you'll never hear him admit he was wrong, per usual.
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Old 14th January 2022, 03:24 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post


You are so full of it.
To be fair there is some sort of strange logic in it. I will give it a go, but understand I don't believe a damn word of it.

Here we go. A coup either succeeds or it doesn't. If it succeeds then its a coup. If it fails then its a riot. There is no such thing as an "attempted coup". One either has an actual successful coup or a mere riot. It is impossible that anything in between could ever happen. There is no middle ground. If a coup succeeds, then it is a coup. If a coup fails, then it was never a coup in the first place just some grumpy people. A coup can only actually be a coup if it succeeds.

I can't keep this up. It's too daft.
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Old 14th January 2022, 03:55 PM   #104
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Every one of Thermal's objections have been either immediately or eventually rebuffed.

They didn't have a plan: Yes, they did. Get Pence to not certify the vote, sending it back to the states.
They didn't seize anything: Yes, they did. They held the Senate floor and attempted to seize the House floor.
They didn't have coordination: Yes, they did, as documents have shown.
They haven't been charged with sedition: Now, they have, probably with more to come.

"while remaining open to new evidence"
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Old 14th January 2022, 04:45 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
To be fair there is some sort of strange logic in it. I will give it a go, but understand I don't believe a damn word of it.

Here we go. A coup either succeeds or it doesn't. If it succeeds then its a coup. If it fails then its a riot. There is no such thing as an "attempted coup". One either has an actual successful coup or a mere riot. It is impossible that anything in between could ever happen. There is no middle ground. If a coup succeeds, then it is a coup. If a coup fails, then it was never a coup in the first place just some grumpy people. A coup can only actually be a coup if it succeeds.

I can't keep this up. It's too daft.
So a coup is like a souffle. If it succeeds, it's a souffle. If it fails, it's a custard. Got it.
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Old 14th January 2022, 05:52 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
So a coup is like a souffle. If it succeeds, it's a souffle. If it fails, it's a custard. Got it.
Nom’ed.
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Old 14th January 2022, 06:31 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Yeah, I brought up the Cline's finding four days before you (http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post13664545) and all I got was a 'certain someone' telling me how wrong Cline was because "That is dated 1/27/21. Well before the FBI investigation. Comical," and because it wasn't "organized". Of course, you'll never hear him admit he was wrong, per usual.
Pardon me for big salad 'ing you.
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Old 15th January 2022, 12:46 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Pardon me for big salad 'ing you.
LOL...I had to look that up. Never heard that expression before.
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Old 15th January 2022, 06:04 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
So a coup is like a souffle. If it succeeds, it's a souffle. If it fails, it's a custard. Got it.
I could have stopped it before it happened if I could have warned the right people unfortunately there was no one in the Government, that I could reach that I could Trust!
Sean Hannity and Alex Jones inspired the formation of the Oath Keepers, and if you saw Stewart Rhodes's Interview you can see they expected Trump to have a secret deal with the United States Military, and for Trump to declare the Insurrection act.
Exactly what I knew would cause this, and Mitch McConnell left the Capitol defenseless because he didn't want to Embarrass the Republicans with a large security Presence, while they voted to overturn democracy!
I just feel,so Sad I had too sit back and let this happen.
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Old 15th January 2022, 09:39 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
I could have stopped it before it happened if I could have warned the right people unfortunately there was no one in the Government, that I could reach that I could Trust!
Sean Hannity and Alex Jones inspired the formation of the Oath Keepers, and if you saw Stewart Rhodes's Interview you can see they expected Trump to have a secret deal with the United States Military, and for Trump to declare the Insurrection act.
Exactly what I knew would cause this, and Mitch McConnell left the Capitol defenseless because he didn't want to Embarrass the Republicans with a large security Presence, while they voted to overturn democracy!
I just feel,so Sad I had too sit back and let this happen.
Here's my story: I was born on June 1, 1942, THREE FULL DAYS before the battle of midway. With my super secret strategy that I still can't reveal on a count of my Country may need Me again someday, I could of guaranteed that the u.s. navy would have won that battle! But do you think Franklin Delayedorno Jewsavelt would listen to me? He was like "Nah, that kid's only 3 days old, fergittim! You can't trust me anyway!"

And now here we are today. So I know how you feel.
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Old 15th January 2022, 10:49 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Here's my story: I was born on June 1, 1942, THREE FULL DAYS before the battle of midway. With my super secret strategy that I still can't reveal on a count of my Country may need Me again someday, I could of guaranteed that the u.s. navy would have won that battle! But do you think Franklin Delayedorno Jewsavelt would listen to me? He was like "Nah, that kid's only 3 days old, fergittim! You can't trust me anyway!"

And now here we are today. So I know how you feel.
Did you know that if the Oath Keepers thought they would have Military support they would Try to take the Capitol on the 6th?

I did because I knew how stupid they were!
Stewart Rhodes has every book Jerome corsi ever wrote, he is a big Corsi and infowars fan.

Last edited by Crazy Chainsaw; 15th January 2022 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 15th January 2022, 11:54 AM   #112
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Old 15th January 2022, 03:45 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
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Don't worry I am done, I feel Guilty enough as it stands now.
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Old 16th January 2022, 04:55 AM   #114
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Pretty zany stuff.

Quote:
"They never talk about that crowd. They talk about the people that walked down to the Capitol. They don't talk about the size of that crowd. I believe it was the largest crowd I've ever spoken [to] before and they were there to protest the election," Trump said.

He added: "The fake news never talks about it. They never talk about it. Exactly how many of those present at the Capitol complex on January 6 were FBI confidential informants, agents, or otherwise directly or indirectly with an agency of the United States government. People want to hear this."

Trump calls the Capitol Police officer who shot Ashli Babbitt a 'disgrace' and claims the FBI was behind the insurrection
https://www.businessinsider.com/trum...isgrace-2022-1
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Old 16th January 2022, 05:28 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Pretty zany stuff.




Trump calls the Capitol Police officer who shot Ashli Babbitt a 'disgrace' and claims the FBI was behind the insurrection
https://www.businessinsider.com/trum...isgrace-2022-1
…and do you believe him?
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Old 16th January 2022, 05:34 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Pretty zany stuff.




Trump calls the Capitol Police officer who shot Ashli Babbitt a 'disgrace' and claims the FBI was behind the insurrection
https://www.businessinsider.com/trum...isgrace-2022-1
Do you think a leader of a Party should promulgate such inflammatory lies?
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Old 16th January 2022, 05:51 AM   #117
Crazy Chainsaw
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Pretty zany stuff.




Trump calls the Capitol Police officer who shot Ashli Babbitt a 'disgrace' and claims the FBI was behind the insurrection
https://www.businessinsider.com/trum...isgrace-2022-1
Yes Trump is a Russian useful idiot conspiracy theorist what else Is new?
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Old 16th January 2022, 05:52 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Do you think a leader of a Party should promulgate such inflammatory lies?
It what he has always done, and always will do, he gets in again kis democracy good bye!
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Old 16th January 2022, 07:47 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I like to think you're mis-remembering, and not foisting a blatant falsehood. Here's the Cline Center’s conclusion, which I called to your attention in the prior thread.
Using Cline Center definitions, the storming of the US Capitol Building on January 6, 2021 was an attempted coup d’état. At the time of this writing, the Cline Center’s Coup D’état Project classifies the type of attempt as a dissident coup.
You overlaid your concept of what constitutes a credible threat in this gross distortion of Clines's findings.
You might note that I wasn't referring to their findings/conclusions. I said quite specifically that it was not what *I* call a coup, per *their* criteria.

Looking at their website, I see where the discrepancy lies. They have expanded the definition of a coup from "seizing/wresting power" to general insurrection, including preventing the enacting of any law. By their definition, I'd agree that it was an attempted coup, dissident fueled. But if you expand the definition of "coup" that far, there is no point to the word anymore.

That's really the bulk of the debate. "Is coup the right word for this brand of insurrection?" I don't think so, based on the usual meaning, but agree based on the Cline Center's broader one. Does that put us plus or minus in agreement?
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Old 16th January 2022, 08:48 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
…and do you believe him?
Do I believe that the FBI was behind the capitol riot? Hell no. That is some next-level conspiracy theory stuff.

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Do you think a leader of a Party should promulgate such inflammatory lies?
I don't think Trump should be the leader of the party. That is the main problem, as I see it. I think (hope?) they will distance themselves well before 2024, though. I believe some factors will come into play to force that outcome.
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