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Old 25th January 2022, 12:55 PM   #1
dudalb
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Tucker Carlson vs the GOP....

Tucker is launching a series of attacks on GOP congresspeople who dare to cirticise Putin.
This could be fun.
That is one thing I think a lot of people don't get, the GOP is very fractured, only thing holding them together is a lust to win elections. When is power, they might well fall apart into feuding clans.
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Old 25th January 2022, 12:59 PM   #2
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Ya, but they won't just burn down each other's homes. And Swanson is happy to turn his viewers into violent extremists for Cause of the Week.
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Old 25th January 2022, 02:10 PM   #3
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Some Republicans will even defend Russia and Putin as long as they think it will hurt Biden. Reagan must be rolling over in his grave. Carlson's latest crazy rant:

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I AGREE
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Old 25th January 2022, 02:12 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Some Republicans will even defend Russia and Putin as long as they think it will hurt Biden. Reagan must be rolling over in his grave. Carlson's latest crazy rant:

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I AGREE
and here I was hoping he would just stay on topic about which M&M characters he thought were bangable.
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Old 25th January 2022, 02:16 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Some Republicans will even defend Russia and Putin as long as they think it will hurt Biden. Reagan must be rolling over in his grave. Carlson's latest crazy rant:

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I AGREE
Heartbreaking: The Worst Person You Know Just Made A Great Point

More reluctance to foreign military adventurism is probably one of the good things to come out of the Trump years.

Our record as "World's Policeman" is pretty piss-poor. Regardless of what you feel about Russian aggression, it's probably fair to ask why America should be waving guns around over in Europe.

Not very comforting that an overt white nationalist like Carlson is one of the only prominent pundits speaking plainly about the grip that the Military Industrial Complex has on DC and foreign policy. There probably ought to be more resistance to using military adventurism as a foreign policy solution in this country.
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Old 25th January 2022, 02:35 PM   #6
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It's not like Trump scaled back military operations. He just didn't pick a new country to invade. But you know he was looking at a place like Venezuela with a twinkle in his eye.

That said: Yes, our long and ugly history of foreign intervention needs to be discussed but Little Swanson is not one to be part of that conversation.
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Old 25th January 2022, 02:38 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Some Republicans will even defend Russia and Putin as long as they think it will hurt Biden. Reagan must be rolling over in his grave. Carlson's latest crazy rant:

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I AGREE
What is surprising is Tucker's opening up on other Republicans over this.
The mainstream GOP line is BIden is too weak to stand up to Putin...conviently forgetting four years of Donnie kissing Putin's butt.
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Old 25th January 2022, 02:39 PM   #8
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Maybe, just maybe, we should have reconsidered allowing NATO troops and missiles soo close to the Russian border?

Would we be ok with Russian troops on the Mexican border?
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Old 25th January 2022, 02:39 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
It's not like Trump scaled back military operations. He just didn't pick a new country to invade. But you know he was looking at a place like Venezuela with a twinkle in his eye.

That said: Yes, our long and ugly history of foreign intervention needs to be discussed but Little Swanson is not one to be part of that conversation.
The kind of Natiionalism that Trump preaches always leads to war eventually.
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Old 25th January 2022, 02:41 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Maybe, just maybe, we should have reconsidered allowing NATO troops and missiles soo close to the Russian border?

Would we be ok with Russian troops on the Mexican border?
So we sacrifice Ukraine independence for the sake of "Peace"?
That kind of thing worked so well back in 1938,
But thanks for echoing the putin party line.
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Old 25th January 2022, 02:46 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
and here I was hoping he would just stay on topic about which M&M characters he thought were bangable.
M&MILFs?
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Old 25th January 2022, 02:49 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
It's not like Trump scaled back military operations. He just didn't pick a new country to invade. But you know he was looking at a place like Venezuela with a twinkle in his eye.

That said: Yes, our long and ugly history of foreign intervention needs to be discussed but Little Swanson is not one to be part of that conversation.
Well yeah, there's no reason to believe a fascist like Carlson has a real principled stance against interventionism, it's just that he'd probably prefer different projects than this.

It would be nice if there were a credible anti-war voice to counter the constant saber rattling out of DC, but forever war seems to be a largely bipartisan policy.
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Old 25th January 2022, 02:58 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Regardless of what you feel about Russian aggression, it's probably fair to ask why America should be waving guns around over in Europe.
Because we told Ukraine we would do exactly that if exactly this happened. We can and should tell them something different for next time, but yelling "deal's off sorry" from a safe distance isn't the way to go about that right now.
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Old 25th January 2022, 03:04 PM   #14
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The GOP periodically exhibits a weird sort of love for Putin.

For example, does anyone else recall when Sara Palin was miffed at Obama about some stupid thing or another where she proudly claimed that "Putin has cajhones"? And about the same time, Rush Limbaugh was lionizing Putin as well.

And before then, George W. Bush met Putin and looked deeply into his eyes to "get a sense of his soul"?
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Old 25th January 2022, 03:50 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
The GOP periodically exhibits a weird sort of love for Putin.

For example, does anyone else recall when Sara Palin was miffed at Obama about some stupid thing or another where she proudly claimed that "Putin has cajhones"? And about the same time, Rush Limbaugh was lionizing Putin as well.

And before then, George W. Bush met Putin and looked deeply into his eyes to "get a sense of his soul"?
To be fair Obama trusted him also.
And, I see a wierd sort of love for Putin from elements on the Left as well. The "Jacobin" a trendy militant left magazine, is carrying his water big time.
I have to give the SOB credit;He has managed to get support from both the left and the right at the same time. No way a Soviet leader could have done that.
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Old 25th January 2022, 05:18 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
To be fair Obama trusted him also.
And, I see a wierd sort of love for Putin from elements on the Left as well. The "Jacobin" a trendy militant left magazine, is carrying his water big time.
I have to give the SOB credit;He has managed to get support from both the left and the right at the same time. No way a Soviet leader could have done that.
Putin is a crafty fox; no doubt about that.
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Old 25th January 2022, 06:23 PM   #17
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Because of this belief that the U.S. nine times out of 10 can do no right, and if it does, it's only doing it for some benefit, which I don't find to be a compelling reason to sit things out. This has become almost an article of faith among some on the left for obvious historical reasons. "Fascism is war!...err...except when the U.S. comes to the rescue?"

I don't see the U.S. response now as particularly objectionable.
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Old 25th January 2022, 08:10 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Because of this belief that the U.S. nine times out of 10 can do no right, and if it does, it's only doing it for some benefit, which I don't find to be a compelling reason to sit things out. This has become almost an article of faith among some on the left for obvious historical reasons. "Fascism is war!...err...except when the U.S. comes to the rescue?"

I don't see the U.S. response now as particularly objectionable.
The real danger is Putin has shown he is like Trump in that if gets away with one thing, he will try something even worse the next time.
If, as I fell, PUtin real ulitmate aim is bringing back the old Soviet Union/Imperial Russia the next targeet after the Ukraine would be the Baltic States, and they are NATO members.....
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Old 26th January 2022, 01:31 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Maybe, just maybe, we should have reconsidered allowing NATO troops and missiles soo close to the Russian border?

Would we be ok with Russian troops on the Mexican border?

False equivalence.

Mexico is not Russia's ally, and the US isn't threatening to invade them!
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Old 26th January 2022, 05:02 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
False equivalence.

Mexico is not Russia's ally, and the US isn't threatening to invade them!
Let's not be daft. Inviting all of Russia's close neighbors to join the anti-Russia alliance is absolutely a provocation.

Why does NATO even exist anymore? The soviet union is gone, we won. GG no rematch. It should be dissolved and we should stop escalating tension overseas with our entangling alliances.
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Old 26th January 2022, 05:36 AM   #21
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A mutual defense alliance should not be threatening to anyone but an attacker. There is nothing in NATO history suggesting that the Alliance is a cover for military land expansion - countries join and leave by their own decisions.
At one point, Russia was openly considering joining NATO and wasn't refused outright.
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Old 26th January 2022, 07:19 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Putin is a crafty fox; no doubt about that.
He is Ex KGB, he Rules because he switched his official Religion to Russian Orthodox from Atheist and kicked out the Atheists, Evangelicals, and Muslims, so his Nationalist Russian Orthodox base loves him and he can do no Wrong in their eyes.
That said I would certainly not pay any heed to a TV Host who Compared his love life to a Neutron Bomb, like Tucker once did, he is clueless as to what's really at stake here, which is giving Russia ground to deploy Russian Tactical Nuclear weapons in Ukraine, and threaten any Eastern European County that might want to join Nato.
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Old 26th January 2022, 08:01 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Maybe, just maybe, we should have reconsidered allowing NATO troops and missiles soo close to the Russian border?

Would we be ok with Russian troops on the Mexican border?
The only NATO troops bordering Russia are the Baltic states, and a tiny bit of Norway (a border which is too frozen to contest and which has been like that since the beginning of the cold war). And the only NATO troops in the Baltic states are the troops of those countries. The equivalent would not be Russian troops in Mexico, but Mexico joining the Warsaw pact. And if Mexico had joined the Warsaw Pact, we would indeed have been upset, but we should also be asking what the **** we did wrong to make our neighbor side against us. Russia should be asking the same, but it's clearly not.
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Old 26th January 2022, 08:06 AM   #24
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Are we just pretending the US didn't absolutely lose their mind any time a south American country opted for a leftist government?

Cuba is under extremely punitive sanctions to this day. The US backed a coup attempt for Christ's sake.

This country understands perfectly how provocative a hostile aligned nearby country is.
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Old 26th January 2022, 08:27 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
That said I would certainly not pay any heed to a TV Host who Compared his love life to a Neutron Bomb, like Tucker once did, he is clueless as to what's really at stake here, which is giving Russia ground to deploy Russian Tactical Nuclear weapons in Ukraine, and threaten any Eastern European County that might want to join Nato.
I don't think that's really the goal. After all, who is left in Europe who hasn't joined NATO yet? There's Ukraine itself, Belarus, Moldova, Switzerland, Austria, Sweden, Finland, Bosnia, and Serbia. So let's work through the list in reverse order.

Bosnia and Serbia are not exactly powerhouses, and they're still on the far side of other NATO members from Russia, so they really aren't much of a security concern for Russia. Ukraine brings them in closer range, but still not THAT close, and for not much gain.

Taking Ukraine doesn't bring Russia any closer to Sweden or Finland than it already is. Russia gets no additional leverage against either Sweden or Finland, but may actually build popular support in these countries for joining NATO. Switzerland and Austria could have joined NATO decades ago but didn't, so they likely won't join now. So keeping these countries out of NATO doesn't make sense as a motive for invading Ukraine. It's not an effective move to accomplish that goal.

Taking Ukraine puts them on Moldova's doorstep, which is quite the power play, if for some reason you care about Moldova. But who the **** cares about Moldova? Apparently Russia actually does, having supported a separatist movement in part of the country in the 90's. And Moldova is trying to gain EU membership, which Russia doesn't like. So maybe Moldova is a motive. BUT... Moldova is still small compared to Ukraine, and you don't need tactical nukes to push small countries around. Taking a large country just to intimidate a small country? This seems like a side benefit, not a primary motive, for taking Ukraine.

Belarus is a basket case, with no chance of joining NATO even if they wanted to. They are firmly in the Russia camp, Russia borders them even without Ukraine. So... not a motive.

Lastly, of course, is Ukraine itself. If you take Ukraine, you don't need nukes in Ukraine to keep Ukraine from joining NATO. Hell, you don't even need to take Ukraine to keep it from joining NATO. All you need to do is keep the territorial dispute unresolved (which is trivially accomplished at this point, no further land grabs necessary), and that precludes NATO membership. If Putin is going to take Ukraine, then he will do so because he wants Ukraine itself.

I could be wrong, but I don't think Putin will try to take Ukraine. But I think he would happily nibble on its edges.
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Old 26th January 2022, 08:31 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Are we just pretending the US didn't absolutely lose their mind any time a south American country opted for a leftist government?
That's a nice euphemism for communist.

Quote:
Cuba is under extremely punitive sanctions to this day. The US backed a coup attempt for Christ's sake.

This country understands perfectly how provocative a hostile aligned nearby country is.
Is it your position that the relationship between Russia and NATO is still equivalent to the relationship between the USSR and NATO? If so, I'm not saying you're wrong, but that has implications of its own.
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Old 26th January 2022, 08:31 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post

Would we be ok with Russian troops on the Mexican border?
I would
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Old 26th January 2022, 08:31 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
M&MILFs?
Oh, that delicious MILF chocolate!
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Old 26th January 2022, 08:34 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I could be wrong, but I don't think Putin will try to take Ukraine. But I think he would happily nibble on its edges.
I tend to agree, I don't think that Putin wants to invade and occupy Ukraine.

He does however want Ukraine to be another Belarus, a state entirely aligned with Russia so he has all the benefits of invasion and occupation but with none of the hassles.
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Old 26th January 2022, 09:26 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
The GOP periodically exhibits a weird sort of love for Putin.

For example, does anyone else recall when Sara Palin was miffed at Obama about some stupid thing or another where she proudly claimed that "Putin has cajhones"? And about the same time, Rush Limbaugh was lionizing Putin as well.

And before then, George W. Bush met Putin and looked deeply into his eyes to "get a sense of his soul"?
Sometimes, I feel like it's them trying to bask in the win. Not only did the Soviet Union collapse, but they went hard-core super capitalist and even embraced conservative Christianity. So, in the minds of the American right, it was a victory at every level. We didn't just beat them. We converted them.
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Old 26th January 2022, 09:33 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The only NATO troops bordering Russia are the Baltic states, and a tiny bit of Norway (a border which is too frozen to contest and which has been like that since the beginning of the cold war). And the only NATO troops in the Baltic states are the troops of those countries. The equivalent would not be Russian troops in Mexico, but Mexico joining the Warsaw pact. And if Mexico had joined the Warsaw Pact, we would indeed have been upset, but we should also be asking what the **** we did wrong to make our neighbor side against us. Russia should be asking the same, but it's clearly not.
Are you not familiar with the US's history with Latin America? Not only should we know exactly why some of those countries have done that, but the way we reacted also was not nearly as introspective as you imply.
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Old 26th January 2022, 09:44 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Are you not familiar with the US's history with Latin America? Not only should we know exactly why some of those countries have done that, but the way we reacted also was not nearly as introspective as you imply.
This thread isn't about US policy in Latin America, and I'm not trying to defend our cold war policies. The only relevance here is that the fact that Russia doesn't like NATO on its doorstep isn't an excuse for their misbehavior.
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Old 26th January 2022, 08:47 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Are we just pretending the US didn't absolutely lose their mind any time a south American country opted for a leftist government?

Cuba is under extremely punitive sanctions to this day. The US backed a coup attempt for Christ's sake.

This country understands perfectly how provocative a hostile aligned nearby country is.
The Cuba thing isn't about Communism anymore. It's about Electoral College Math, Cuban Immigrants, and Florida. No one wants to start a Presidential run five points down in Florida...
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Old 27th January 2022, 05:16 AM   #34
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To drag things back on topic, I would simply point out that Carlson largely has a good point that it seems odd that Americans are expected to care deeply about this entirely foreign affair. Why exactly is the sovereignty of Ukraine something we should all be so animated about, and why aggressive intervention (up to engaging in direct warfare) the automatic solution?

Putin is bad. Russia is certainly aggressive and a threat to their former Soviet state neighbors. All of this is true. Why is this our problem again?

I have no illusions that Carlson is deeply principled in any way, and I suspect this is just cynical BS to serve some ulterior motive, but it's noteworthy that some perverted strain of anti-interventionism does seem on the rise among the right.

Given our recent track record of extraordinary interventions failing spectacularly, it seems that this stance is one that probably could do with some critical examination.
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Old 27th January 2022, 05:51 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
To drag things back on topic, I would simply point out that Carlson largely has a good point that it seems odd that Americans are expected to care deeply about this entirely foreign affair. Why exactly is the sovereignty of Ukraine something we should all be so animated about, and why aggressive intervention (up to engaging in direct warfare) the automatic solution?

Putin is bad. Russia is certainly aggressive and a threat to their former Soviet state neighbors. All of this is true. Why is this our problem again?

I have no illusions that Carlson is deeply principled in any way, and I suspect this is just cynical BS to serve some ulterior motive, but it's noteworthy that some perverted strain of anti-interventionism does seem on the rise among the right.

Given our recent track record of extraordinary interventions failing spectacularly, it seems that this stance is one that probably could do with some critical examination.

Quite frankly, the whole "Putin is bad" thing, that is a highly subjective argument, one that depends on your world view.

I agree on the rest.
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Old 27th January 2022, 06:01 AM   #36
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Putin is bad is not subjective: using chemical warfare agents against regime critics in nations you are allied with is objectively bad, enough to technically invoke the NATO mutual defense clause.

The only reason why Republicans are fond of Putin is because both they and he hate Hillary Clinton.
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Old 27th January 2022, 06:16 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Putin is bad is not subjective: using chemical warfare agents against regime critics in nations you are allied with is objectively bad, enough to technically invoke the NATO mutual defense clause.

The only reason why Republicans are fond of Putin is because both they and he hate Hillary Clinton.
Yes...only planting a bomb in a seashell is virtuous.
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Old 27th January 2022, 06:19 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Yes...only planting a bomb in a seashell is virtuous.
Whataboutism strikes again.

You can just agree that Putin is bad without claiming that others are good.

But for some, it's impossible to have a villain unless they also have a hero.
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Old 27th January 2022, 06:30 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
But for some, it's impossible to have a villain unless they also have a hero.
In a world without heroes there are no villains.
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Old 27th January 2022, 06:45 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
In a world without heroes there are no villains.
That's just stupid.
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