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Tags nato , Russia-Finland relations , Russia-Sweden relations , Russia-Ukraine war , vladimir putin

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Old 28th February 2022, 12:42 AM   #41
llwyd
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am guessing that Finland has had to be a lot more cautious due to them-next-door, as per usual. Always having to tread on eggshells.
Well, actually the foreign minister let it be understood we would better keep to our storage (as it might be needed) - this is absolutely unsually blunt. And the army will most certainly hold on to our anti-tank and anti-air equipment at the moment. For some reason...
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Old 28th February 2022, 02:07 AM   #42
Vixen
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Originally Posted by llwyd View Post
Well, actually the foreign minister let it be understood we would better keep to our storage (as it might be needed) - this is absolutely unsually blunt. And the army will most certainly hold on to our anti-tank and anti-air equipment at the moment. For some reason...
A-ha! (Or should that be 'OHO!')
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Old 28th February 2022, 02:34 AM   #43
llwyd
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
A-ha! (Or should that be 'OHO!')
Yeah, very surprising - but now they tell that the army is still looking for suitable armaments to send, I guess there has been quite a bit of public pressure to deliver some arms, any arms...
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Old 28th February 2022, 01:35 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by llwyd View Post
Yeah, very surprising - but now they tell that the army is still looking for suitable armaments to send, I guess there has been quite a bit of public pressure to deliver some arms, any arms...
Hopefully Sniper rifles. The Finns make excellent Sniper rifles.
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Old 28th February 2022, 01:37 PM   #45
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Well, the threats against Finland and Swedan seem to be another Putin move that has backfired badly.
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Old 28th February 2022, 02:42 PM   #46
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Never threaten a Finn. Finland has now announced it will send the following:

Quote:
Today, on the proposal of the Government, the President of the Republic has decided that Finland will hand over 2,500 assault rifles, 150,000 cartridges for assault rifles, 1,500 lump sums and 70,000 combat food kits to Ukraine as material assistance.
Valioneuvosto

Here's an example of Finnish humour. There is now a campaign to leave dog muck at the Russian Embassy:

Quote:
Antti Eskelinen
@eskelinen_antti
·
15h
Dog owners in #Helsinki #Finland are starting to collect dog **** and deliver it to the
@RussianEmbFinla
. The same approach could be launched around the world.

#Ukraine #Russia
https://twitter.com/eskelinen_antti/...xBkFUS4XtDAixg


In other news, ALKO, the state owned licensed wine, beer and spirits agency, have announced it is taking Russian vodka off the shelves and will try to replace it with Ukrainian brands.

Supermarkets are removing Russian goods. If a barcode begins '406' then it means it was produced in Russia and people are encouraged to avoid such goods in support of Ukraine.

Norway, too, has announced that it is also sending 2,000 assault rifles.


When the going gets tough, the tough get going.
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Old 28th February 2022, 03:39 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Hopefully Sniper rifles. The Finns make excellent Sniper rifles.
Which ones do you have in mind?

I can think of a number of excellent sniper rifles but not any current models from Finland.
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Old 28th February 2022, 09:57 PM   #48
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Good for the Finns !!!

Last edited by Bubba; 28th February 2022 at 09:59 PM.
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Old 28th February 2022, 10:06 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Norway, too, has announced that it is also sending 2,000 assault rifles.
Not assault rifles. 2000 M72 Light Anti-Tank Weapons.
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Old 28th February 2022, 11:11 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Not assault rifles. 2000 M72 Light Anti-Tank Weapons.
Ah, imposing THE LAW on Russian armor.
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Old 28th February 2022, 11:23 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Which ones do you have in mind?

I can think of a number of excellent sniper rifles but not any current models from Finland.
I know nothing about weapons but one famous submachine rifle used in WWII was the Suomi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomi_KP/-31

Quote:
The Suomi KP/-31 is regarded by many[6] as one of the most successful submachine guns of World War II. It also had a profound effect on that conflict beyond Finland as the Soviet authorities, who had been dismissive of submachine guns, were persuaded of their deadly efficiency by the Finns after attacking them in 1939.

The Molotov cocktail was also a Finnish innovation.

Quote:
The name "Molotov cocktail" was coined by the Finns during the Winter War,[1] called Molotovin koktaili in Finnish. The name was a pejorative reference to Soviet foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov, who was one of the architects of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact signed in late August 1939.


<snip>

On 30 November 1939, the Soviet Union attacked Finland, starting what came to be known as the Winter War. The Finnish perfected the design and tactical use of the petrol bomb. The fuel for the Molotov cocktail was refined to a slightly sticky mixture of alcohol, kerosene, tar, and potassium chlorate.
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Old 1st March 2022, 02:22 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
There's an argument to be had that Russia could speculate the West would not retaliate to a low-scale tactical use of nukes with a large-scale nuclear second strike, as Russia will likely retain a third-strike capacity, given its large land area and submarines. Both wiping out Russian targets and losing Western cities would be unpopular with Westerm populations, no government would be able to stay after such a development.
Trying to wrap my head around that. Seems to me kind of all-or-nothing. It's essentially biologic warfare. Yeah you want a little radiation, we can give you a little back.
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Old 1st March 2022, 04:24 AM   #53
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Russia has far more tactical, i.e. short to medium range, limited impact nukes than the West. So if Russia starts using those, how should the West respond? With ICBMs that can take out entire cities?
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Old 1st March 2022, 04:38 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Ah, imposing THE LAW on Russian armor.
Iadmit blowing up fake Russian vehicals with a law was one of the few enjoyable parts of US Army Basic RTraining. went I went throush.
But then the Ukrainians are already using a classic Finnish weapon with The Molotov Cocktail;it was the Finns who gave it that name.
They did not invent it though; it was used by the IRA on British Armored cars in the Irish War Of Independence (1919 1922),
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Old 1st March 2022, 08:17 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Hevneren View Post
Russia has far more tactical, i.e. short to medium range, limited impact nukes than the West. So if Russia starts using those, how should the West respond? With ICBMs that can take out entire cities?
I think that the U.S. is so wildly overmatched against Russia that we would not need small nukes to have the same effect as small tactical "battlefield" nukes. We could bomb the crap out of Vladivostok and destroy their Pacific Fleet, destroy all military faculties in the Kaliningrad oblast, whatever.

Imagine the bombing of Iraq in 2003, only with much more updated weapons systems and with much, much more fury. A truly angry U.S. military could do an enormous amount of damage without resorting to nukes.

That, coupled with internal political pressure in Russia, could see Putin removed.

Last edited by crescent; 1st March 2022 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 1st March 2022, 08:30 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
... We could bomb the crap out of Vladivostok and destroy their Pacific Fleet, ...
Matter of fact: During the 2014 crisis, I entertained privately the idea if perhaps the best course of action for Obama and the US would be to super-escalate and just destroy the entire Black Sea fleet and Sevastopol in one brutal go, and tell Putin do not dare any reaction other than say "thank you master, I deserved this", or else the other fleets and Kaliningrad and several other strategic sites are history, too. Humiliate the crap out of Putin. Make it clear to the generals in Russia that they will lose all their toys if they allow Vlad to stay.
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Old 1st March 2022, 08:43 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I think that the U.S. is so wildly overmatched against Russia that we would not need small nukes to have the same effect as small tactical "battlefield" nukes. We could bomb the crap out of Vladivostok and destroy their Pacific Fleet, destroy all military faculties in the Kaliningrad oblast, whatever.

Imagine the bombing of Iraq in 2003, only with mush more updated weapons systems and with much, much more fury. A truly angry U.S. military could do an enormous amount of damage without resorting to nukes.

That, coupled with internal political pressure in Russia, could see Putin removed.
Or it could trigger Russia resorting to a nuclear response and ending (human) life on Earth.
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Old 1st March 2022, 08:55 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by PitPat View Post
Nobody's resorting to nukes. He's an idiot, but not that dumb.
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Well, the threats against Finland and Swedan seem to be another Putin move that has backfired badly.
Its almost as though his whole plan is to build NATO and western cohesion and resolve.
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Old 1st March 2022, 10:35 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Its almost as though his whole plan is to build NATO and western cohesion and resolve.
It must have been so frustrating for him to see his lackey Trump try so hard to bolster NATO and fail so spectacularly. This whole Ukraine thing is just Putin realizing that if he wants a job done right, he has to do it himself.
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Old 1st March 2022, 11:19 AM   #60
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Shirtless of course.
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Old 1st March 2022, 11:54 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Its almost as though his whole plan is to build NATO and western cohesion and resolve.
It really is like that isn't it? Like at some point Putin will go on TV and say "Surprise!" and pull off his face mask and it's actually Jens Stoltenberg underneath.
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Old 1st March 2022, 12:01 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Or it could trigger Russia resorting to a nuclear response and ending (human) life on Earth.
I've heard this a lot and I keep thinking to myself, "Why?"

He's concerned about his health enough to isolate, take vaccines, work out, etc. I would say he doesn't want to die. Going scorched Earth, as you said, would end human life. I just don't see why he would do that. I don't see what he gains. He's going to kill the entirety of humanity because he couldn't have Ukraine? Or Finland? His generals, the people surrounding him, and his country are going to blindly follow instructions to destroy the planet? Why? Because they love him so much? I don't buy it.
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Old 1st March 2022, 12:07 PM   #63
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The parliament of Finland had a public discussion on a possible NATO membership. Despicable waffling and piling-on of platitudes by Social Democrats and the Center, the two biggest parties in the current coalition government. It looks like no matter what happens, they want to keep the option open but it's never the right time to actually do anything. I'd be disappointed, if this wasn't pretty much what I expected of them.
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Old 1st March 2022, 01:51 PM   #64
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<clink clink clink> May I have your attention, please! I am sure you will all wish to join me in condemning the act of wanton vandalism on the Russian Consulate building in Turku-Ĺbo, Finland, yesterday, as reported in the news.

Tut, tut, tut.
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Old 1st March 2022, 02:16 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I've heard this a lot and I keep thinking to myself, "Why?"

He's concerned about his health enough to isolate, take vaccines, work out, etc. I would say he doesn't want to die. Going scorched Earth, as you said, would end human life. I just don't see why he would do that. I don't see what he gains. He's going to kill the entirety of humanity because he couldn't have Ukraine? Or Finland? His generals, the people surrounding him, and his country are going to blindly follow instructions to destroy the planet? Why? Because they love him so much? I don't buy it.
Because he is irrational?
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Old 1st March 2022, 02:18 PM   #66
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I think what will happen in Ukraine in the next few days will convice some of the wafflers in Finland.
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Old 1st March 2022, 04:08 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think what will happen in Ukraine in the next few days will convice some of the wafflers in Finland.
I'd think current stuff would be already enough. Especially with Finland's history with Russia...
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Old 1st March 2022, 10:40 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think what will happen in Ukraine in the next few days will convice some of the wafflers in Finland.
I doubt it. If Putin's current crimes are not enough, it's not a question of what happens in the Ukraine, it's just lack of leadership and inability to take action.
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Old 2nd March 2022, 05:53 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by PitPat View Post
Shirtless of course.
Of course!
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Old 2nd March 2022, 07:21 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
it's just lack of leadership and inability to take action.
By Niinistö mostly - he sounded totally weird in that interview on Tuesday. I think the only explanation is that he thinks that Putin has lost his mental balance and could literally do any crazy thing, so now we should prepare our army but keep a low profile about Nato. A big mistake in my view.
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Old 2nd March 2022, 08:42 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by llwyd View Post
By Niinistö mostly - he sounded totally weird in that interview on Tuesday. I think the only explanation is that he thinks that Putin has lost his mental balance and could literally do any crazy thing, so now we should prepare our army but keep a low profile about Nato. A big mistake in my view.
Niinistö definitely, but the top cabinet ministers as well. I didn't expect much from them (both the SocDems and the Center Party still have a lot of Finlandization-era baggage, both doctrinally and in personnel), but I'm very disappointed in Niinistö. I really thought there was some substance under those winding contemplations of his, but apparently that is not the case.
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Old 2nd March 2022, 01:03 PM   #72
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I guess this news belongs here.

Swedish fighter jets were scrambled to intercept Russian fighter jets entering Swedish airspace today.

The Russians left once intercepted.
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Old 2nd March 2022, 01:06 PM   #73
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Finland and Sweden should immediately apply for NATO membership and push for the approval to be fast-tracked.
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Old 2nd March 2022, 01:16 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
I guess this news belongs here.

Swedish fighter jets were scrambled to intercept Russian fighter jets entering Swedish airspace today.

The Russians left once intercepted.
I am fulling expecting the Russians to try this crap agains Nato; maybe playing the game of coming really close to US warships.
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Old 3rd March 2022, 06:19 AM   #75
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Well, now it's been announced that Niinistö will be meeting Biden tomorrow in Washington, this has been arranged with a really unprecedented speed. Interesting...
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Old 3rd March 2022, 06:35 AM   #76
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Russia is not going to invade Finland. It might give them a new port in the Baltic but that is about it. Putin wants regional control and also the benefit of good land in Ukraine. Finland is only good for dairy products, pigs etc. Ukraine is good farm land.

And it would take even longer to take Finland than Ukraine, despite the smaller army there. It's a NATO ready army lacking only missiles to reach Moscow and navy. But very good for in field wars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Defence_Forces

Mobile surface-to-air missile launchers
MANPADS
Anti-aircraft artillery (numbers below for three)
60
286
+1068
Anti-tank guided missile launchers
Recoilless rifles
2,685
71,000
Artillery
Self-propelled artillery
Mortars
Multiple rocket launchers
740
72 +(48)
+1248
56
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Old 3rd March 2022, 06:57 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
I guess this news belongs here.

Swedish fighter jets were scrambled to intercept Russian fighter jets entering Swedish airspace today.

The Russians left once intercepted.
As I said in another thread, this is a regular occurence. They were likely testing Swedish posture in light of recent happenings.
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Old 3rd March 2022, 07:07 AM   #78
varwoche
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It must have been so frustrating for him to see his lackey Trump try so hard to bolster NATO and fail so spectacularly. This whole Ukraine thing is just Putin realizing that if he wants a job done right, he has to do it himself.
Sarcasm? Musings from an alternate universe?

Originally Posted by Trump
America has no vital interest in choosing between warring factions whose animosities go back centuries in Eastern Europe. Their conflicts are not worth American lives. Pulling back from Europe would save this country millions of dollars annually.
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Old 3rd March 2022, 07:08 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
As I said in another thread, this is a regular occurence. They were likely testing Swedish posture in light of recent happenings.
Though I think it co-incided with joint Swedish-Finnish excercises on Gotland where both the countries' defence ministers happened to be on a visit. So, maybe not totally regular but perhaps sending a some sort of a message too?
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Old 3rd March 2022, 07:11 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Sarcasm? Musings from an alternate universe?
"Whoosh."
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