Merged: Russia threatens Finland & Sweden/ they may join within months

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by varwoche

Sarcasm? Musings from an alternate universe?

No the idea was that it was all reverse psychology. He strengthened NATO because he was so repugnant and his clear hatred of NATO would engender the opposite response in rational people.

[uke2se]

Originally Posted by llwyd

Though I think it co-incided with joint Swedish-Finnish excercises on Gotland where both the countries' defence ministers happened to be on a visit. So, maybe not totally regular but perhaps sending a some sort of a message too?

Sure, maybe. I don't know how Putin thinks.

[llwyd]

Originally Posted by uke2se

Sure, maybe. I don't know how Putin thinks.

Well, thinking that this violation happened just next to Gotland, I would presume that it's pretty obvious, tbh.

[timhau]

Originally Posted by llwyd

Well, now it's been announced that Niinistö will be meeting Biden tomorrow in Washington, this has been arranged with a really unprecedented speed. Interesting...

Yes Maybe there is something brewing after all.

[Vixen]

Finnish hamburger chain, Hesburger, is pulling out of Russia. Initially, it declined to do so, citing their need for care towards the staff's salaries and job security. Now they are out.

[Vixen]

Former Swedish Prime Minister, Carl Bildt, is demanding the expulsion of Russian diplomats, 'involved in espionage':

Quote:

SvD: Bildt demands expulsion of Russian spy diplomats - Säpo and Suomen Supok consider reconnaissance a permanent security threat

There is a lively debate in Sweden about the security risks posed to the country by Russian diplomats. Former Prime Minister Carl Bildt, who represents the local coalition, is demanding the expulsion of all embassy staff involved in the intelligence gathering.

Interviewed by Svenska Dagbladet , Charlotte von Essen, head of the Swedish Security Police Säpo, also believes that the delegation is a threat. According to Säpo's estimate, one in three employees of the Russian embassy is a spy.

Von Essen does not take a direct position on Bildt's claim.

- It's a political decision, he says.

Turun Sanomat asked the Finnish Security Police whether it considers Russian diplomatic representatives a security threat in Finland.

- There are permanently dozens of intelligence officers from foreign intelligence services in Finland. Diplomatic cover is one of the most common cover used by intelligence officers in their target country. State espionage is a permanent security threat. Finland is particularly interested in Russia and China, says Milla Meretniemi, Supo's Communications Manager.

- Espionage and the fight against it is a constant "silent warfare". Security Counter-Intelligence countered the threat of espionage every day. The task of the Security Police is to prevent secret information from falling into the hands of foreign states and to act against Finland's interests, Meretniemi replies.

Russia has about 30 diplomats in Sweden and almost double the number in Finland. The figure was 58 a few years ago.

Correction at 4.15pm: Bildt is demanding the expulsion of only diplomats involved in the espionage, not all Russian diplomats.

TS


The editor of Turun Sanomat has also been criticising former Finnish President, Tarja Halonen, for not decisively condemning Russia's invasion (she was known for being far-left wing SDP.)

Quote:

On the official website of President Tarja Halonen, the latest entry in the section on current affairs is: “Merry Christmas and Happy New Year 2022”.

After Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the end of the world on the brink of the Great War, three new posts have appeared on Halonen's Twitter account.

As the people of Kiev and Kharkov fight for their existence and the EU shuts down Russia from both its airspace and the world's payment system, Halonen commented on Sunday with two words: "Slippery countdown!"

On Saturday, she also used two words: “I agree”. They commented on a message from the UN Secretary-General calling on Vladimir Putin to withdraw his troops to Russia in the name of humanity.

On Friday, Halonen had used as many as two sentences to comment on the crisis: “Thank you to the state leadership for today's press conference. Warm support in this difficult situation. ”

And that's it. Halonen has not presented any condemnation of her own to her former karaoke friend.

A more outspoken statement these days is even available from a Russian NHL hockey player.

TS


IMV fine rhetoric doesn't always add up to much (cf Boris Johnson, UK) and of course, with older generation politicians, such as Niinistö and Halonen, perhaps they just have a wise head on old shoulders in knowing that with Russia, one treads 'softly softly' [catchee monkey], plus SDP, workers movement, has always had this socialist association that goes back to Civil War days. Current President, Niinistö, was of the Coalition Party (Kokemus, KOK, Conservative).

Niinistö's meeting today with US President Joe Biden seems VERY speedily arranged.

Things are moving fast.

[Arcade22]

A majority of Finns are now in favor of joining NATO now, with roughly 52% in favour and 30% against. Apparently the ruling social-democratic party also agrees and wants to join.

[PitPat]

Originally Posted by crescent

That, coupled with internal political pressure in Russia, could see Putin removed.

Feels more and more to me like this is about the best (if not only) way out for him if he still has 2 brains cells left to rub together. He obviously doesn't care about international Pariah status for years.

Also highly unlikely to suppress independent media creeping in - and if soldiers' parents stop hearing from them their sons ad end up coming home in a box, then forget about. His own people are his greatest liability right now. Don't know, seems like the first best alternative.

[dudalb]

I thin it is inevitible that Putin will lash out at the West with some kind of attempted massive cyber attack.
SO far it's the dog that has'nt barked, but it will barkif this goes on.

[dudalb]

When the Russians go after Odessa it could get really bloody,

[Vixen]

Erratum: Finnish President Sauli Niinistö has flown out to Washington but hasn't had the meeting with POTUS 46 Biden yet, which will be today.


HELSINKI, March 3 (Reuters) - Finland's President Sauli Niinistö will meet U.S. President Joe Biden in Washington on Friday, Niinistö's office said on Thursday.

Day before yesterday, Niinistö tweeted:

Quote:

Sauli Niinistö
@niinisto
·
Mar 2
Today we had a joint video call with Prime Ministers
@SwedishPM
Andersson and
@jonasgahrstore
. A common analysis of Russia’s warfare in Ukraine, the already firm Nordic unity becoming even stronger. The FI-SE-NO tradition started in Kultaranta in 2019 continues.

Twitter

[PitPat]

Originally Posted by Arcade22

A majority of Finns are now in favor of joining NATO now, with roughly 52% in favour and 30% against. Apparently the ruling social-democratic party also agrees and wants to join.

Seems like great news. I have no idea about Finnish politics....something that can pass quickly and apply for membership on Day 1? Or will it be year-long process.

[Ryokan]

Originally Posted by dudalb

I thin it is inevitible that Putin will lash out at the West with some kind of attempted massive cyber attack.
SO far it's the dog that has'nt barked, but it will barkif this goes on.

NATO had said a cyber attack could trigger article 5.

[timhau]

Originally Posted by PitPat

Seems like great news. I have no idea about Finnish politics....something that can pass quickly and apply for membership on Day 1? Or will it be year-long process.

Our politicians have waffled with the idea for 25 years, and even they don't know yet. With our previous constitution, under which we joined the EU, this would have required a 2/3 parliamentary majority, but under the current one... well we don't really now, because it was only ratified in 2011 and nobody frickin' bothered to find out.

The idea of our NATO membership has presumably been under consideration for a quarter of a century, but if the political "foreign policy experts" never bothered to figure out what an increasingly aggressive stance by Putin would do to it, what the heck were they doing all that time? Sticking their fingers up their butts so Vladimir can't put anything there?

[Hercules56]

Its has occurred to me that Ukraine, Finland, Sweden, Moldova, better get their act together and stop provoking Russia by refusing to be part of Russia.

Eventually Russia will get upset and seek to reclaim their destiny as the ruler of all lands where the Russian language is heard & spoken.

[crescent]

Originally Posted by dudalb

When the Russians go after Odessa it could get really bloody,

I'm seeing an analyst suggesting the Russia will land troops in Odessa, and then propose a cease fire.

The use the cease fire to land more troops and supplies in Odessa (along with resupplying Russki troops throughout Ukraine). If the Ukrainians try to stop that, accuse them of breaking the cease fire.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by crescent

I'm seeing an analyst suggesting the Russia will land troops in Odessa, and then propose a cease fire.

The use the cease fire to land more troops and supplies in Odessa (along with resupplying Russki troops throughout Ukraine). If the Ukrainians try to stop that, accuse them of breaking the cease fire.

Which indicates something else the west could do to help Ukraine: Enter the Black Sea and blockade Ukrainian ports. As a UN "blue helmet" type thing - we don't want to fight, but you'll have to shoot at us before you can do the fighting you want to do.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by PitPat

Seems like great news. I have no idea about Finnish politics....something that can pass quickly and apply for membership on Day 1? Or will it be year-long process.

I think there has to be standardisation of equipment, which Finland seems to have when it bought an F-35 stealth aircraft a few weeks ago from the USA, as opposed to a Swedish own-brand which was strongly being pushed. Sweden has already built up a strong military. Finland were not allowed to have nuclear submarines, thanks to post-war limitations. IIRC There are five core members of NATO, with the rest being associates. They are more to do with defence than attack or taking sides.

[Vixen]

The Swedish Prime Minister Andresson and Defence Minister Hultqvist are visiting Finland today to discuss the security situation and hostilities, with Finnish President Niinistö - who has only just got back from Washington DC after meeting US President Biden - Prime Minister Marin and Defence Minister Kaikkonen.

Quote:

SWEDISH Prime Minister Magdalena Andersson and Swedish Defense Minister Peter Hultqvist will visit Finland today, Saturday.

Andersson and Hultqvist will have a meeting with President Sauli Niinistö , Prime Minister Sanna Marin (SD) and Defense Minister Antti Kaikkonen (center). Topics of discussion include Russia's hostilities in Ukraine, the changed security situation in Europe and co-operation between Finland and Sweden.

The prime ministers will also have a bilateral meeting on the security situation in Europe, economic issues and other current EU issues. Defense ministers also have their own bilateral talks.

HS will broadcast a live broadcast of ISTV on the Prime Ministers' press conference at around 2.45 pm.

HS


As an aside, Niinistö said of his meeting yesterday with Biden:

Quote:

The President of the Republic Sauli Niinistö held a press conference after meeting with US President Joe Biden at the White House. At the event, Niinistö said that Finland has moved towards “clearly closer co-operation” with the United States in security and defense matters.

FINLAND and the United States are intensifying their security and defense co-operation, President Sauli Niinistö said after meeting with US President Joe Biden late Friday in Finnish time in Washington.

“The intention is to set in motion on a process basis, without now identifying any proposals for security and defense cooperation that will come under discussion. It became very clear that NATO's open door policy was continuing and that the United States considered it important, ”Niinistö said.

He emphasized that co-operation with the United States would continue to include the other Nordic countries in the negotiations. By the end of their meeting, Niinistö and Biden had called Magdalena Andersson .

HS

[varwoche]

Originally Posted by theprestige

"Whoosh."

I tried. Oh well.

It's hard to tell in this day and age, what with so many Trump cultists operating from alternate reality, on top of your body of work.

[Vixen]

The Russian state has been keeping a beady eye on Finland. Its mainstream news outlets and broadcasters have been reporting on Niinistö's visit with Biden and Andersson. Bearing in mind Russia has forbidden Finland and Sweden from even thinking of joining NATO their Foreign Affairs spokeswoman, Maria Zakharova, must be choking on her caviar blinis and dreaming up all sorts of forms of evil torture for her Nordic neighbours. A minister Sergei Tsekovia in the Duma has pointed out that Finland's situation is very different from that of Ukraine's: it was militarised and weaponised, whereas Finland had not shown itself to be 'anti-Russian'.

Quote:

Svobodnaya's press refers to Finland's "neutral status" and speculates whether, with "general Russophobic hysteria", Finland could join NATO quickly and how Russia should react to it. According to Igor Nikolaitshuk , an “independent military expert” interviewed in the story , the accession of Finland and Sweden to NATO would be of even greater significance for Russia than for Ukraine.

"Only bring additional problems for Finland"
In recent days, the Russian media has also published Russian views on Finland's possible NATO membership.

The online magazine Lenta.ru headlined that “the Federal Council warned Finland about the consequences of NATO membership”. Sergei Tsekov , a member of the International Affairs Committee of the Upper House of the Russian Parliament, has been interviewed in the story .

According to the Czech Republic, Russia has a negative attitude towards Finland's possible NATO membership. According to Tsekov, membership would only bring additional problems for Finland. Tsekov also points out that the situation in Finland and Ukraine is quite different. According to him, Ukraine has been "militarized and filled with weapons" while no "anti-Russia" has emerged in Finland.

TS

[Klimax]

Originally Posted by Vixen

The Russian state has been keeping a beady eye on Finland. Its mainstream news outlets and broadcasters have been reporting on Niinistö's visit with Biden and Andersson. Bearing in mind Russia has forbidden Finland and Sweden from even thinking of joining NATO their Foreign Affairs spokeswoman, Maria Zakharova, must be choking on her caviar blinis and dreaming up all sorts of forms of evil torture for her Nordic neighbours. A minister Sergei Tsekovia in the Duma has pointed out that Finland's situation is very different from that of Ukraine's: it was militarised and weaponised, whereas Finland had not shown itself to be 'anti-Russian'.

TS

You have a mistake in quote. Czech Republic -> Sergei Tsekov.

The only mention of us I found in linked article, is that there were reports on visit in Czech media. (Nothing specific)

[Craig4]

What's Russia going to do? Seventy percent of Russia's combat power is bogged down in Ukraine. They either have to accept Finnish and Swedish NATO membership or go nuclear. NATO would respond with nukes. The oligarchs and the senior leadership of the military and security services who almost certainly have plans to neutralize Putin (that's the point of the sanctions, to incentivize people doing things to Putin) would intervene.

Putin and everyone in the Kremlin has been vaccinated with high-quality vaccines from the West. He also has access to rapid PCR tests for everyone in the facility. He's not social distancing because he's afraid of COVID-19. He's keeping people away to avoid getting whacked. Let's face it, Russia has tradition of dealing with leaders who get them into unpopular and unsuccessful wars.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Klimax

You have a mistake in quote. Czech Republic -> Sergei Tsekov.

The only mention of us I found in linked article, is that there were reports on visit in Czech media. (Nothing specific)

According to wiki, Sergei Tsekov is an incumbent of the Russian parliament in Crimea (was formally a politician in the Czech government pre- fall of the Soviet Union). I dare say he did say this in an article rather than in the house.

Quote:

Lenta.ru -verkkolehti otsikoi, että “liittoneuvostossa varoitettiin Suomea Nato-jäsenyyden seurauksista”. Jutussa on haastateltu Venäjän parlamentin ylähuoneen kansainvälisten asioiden komitean jäsentä Sergei Tsekovia.

Tsekovin mukaan Venäjä suhtautuu kielteisesti Suomen mahdolliseen Nato-jäsenyyteen. Tsekovin mukaan jäsenyys toisi Suomelle ainoastaan lisäongelmia. Tsekov myös huomauttaa, että Suomen ja Ukrainan tilanne on aivan erilainen. Hänen mukaansa Ukraina on “militarisoitu ja täytetty aseilla” kun taas Suomeen ei ole syntynyt ”anti-Venäjää".

TS

Google translate:

Quote:

The online magazine Lenta.ru headlined that “the Federal Council warned Finland about the consequences of NATO membership”. Sergei Tsekov, a member of the International Affairs Committee of the Upper House of the Russian Parliament, has been interviewed in the story. According to the Czech Republic, Russia has a negative attitude towards Finland's possible NATO membership. According to Tsekov, membership would only bring additional problems for Finland. Tsekov also points out that the situation in Finland and Ukraine is quite different. According to him, Ukraine has been "militarized and filled with weapons" while no "anti-Russia" has emerged in Finland.

ETA: Ah, I see it now. Google has translated Tsekov's name as 'the Czech Republic(!). It should of course read:

"According to Tsekov, Russia has a negative attitude towards Finland's possible NATO membership."

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Craig4

What's Russia going to do? Seventy percent of Russia's combat power is bogged down in Ukraine. They either have to accept Finnish and Swedish NATO membership or go nuclear. NATO would respond with nukes. The oligarchs and the senior leadership of the military and security services who almost certainly have plans to neutralize Putin (that's the point of the sanctions, to incentivize people doing things to Putin) would intervene.

Putin and everyone in the Kremlin has been vaccinated with high-quality vaccines from the West. He also has access to rapid PCR tests for everyone in the facility. He's not social distancing because he's afraid of COVID-19. He's keeping people away to avoid getting whacked. Let's face it, Russia has tradition of dealing with leaders who get them into unpopular and unsuccessful wars.

Russia is bogged down for now. However, it has openly stated it has Finland and Sweden in its sights, when that outrageous horror of a woman, Maria Zakharova* made her ugly and open threat, as if she has any power over Finland and Sweden. The cheeky bastard!

*Director of the Information and Press Department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation[2] (Spokeswoman for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation)

[Vixen]

Putin's 'pavement plaque' has been removed from the Maritime Museum in Turku and the City of Turku un-twinned from St Petersburg.

Quote:

The city of Turku has removed the tile of Russian President Vladimir Putin's museum from the memorial plaque area of ​​the Forum Marinum. The city removed the tile on Friday in protest of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

Putin received his tile in the plaque area in June 2013, when he visited Turku with President Sauli Niinistö . The city awards tiles to distinguished guests who have excelled in the protection of the Baltic Sea. The plaque area is located in front of the entrance to the Forum Marinum.

TS

Putin had some nerve stepping into Turku harbour area at all, given the history.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Russia is bogged down for now. However, it has openly stated it has Finland and Sweden in its sights, when that outrageous horror of a woman, Maria Zakharova* made her ugly and open threat, as if she has any power over Finland and Sweden. The cheeky bastard!

*Director of the Information and Press Department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation[2] (Spokeswoman for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation)

Too bad Simo Hayha, aka "The White Death" is not around to pay her a visit.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by dudalb

Too bad Simo Hayha, aka "The White Death" is not around to pay her a visit.

Heh. Häyhä could shoot accurately from 500ft and had the patience of a saint: could keep still for hours, camouflaged by the snow until the enemy moved first.

Quote:

Häyhä was able to estimate distances with an accuracy of 1 metre (3.3 ft) up to 150 metres (500 ft).[11] Saarelainen notes that during his Civil Guard training, Häyhä once hit a target 16 times from 150 metres away in just one minute. "This was an unbelievable accomplishment with a bolt action rifle, considering that each cartridge had to be manually fed with a fixed magazine that held together five cartridges."

wiki

I suspect my grandfather was a good shot, too. After Pappa died, I discovered an old tobacco tin of his containing 'Russian trophies': torn-off buttons, stripes, badges and cockades that he must have collected from his time on the eastern front.

[Vixen]

Update

Sweden has decided against NATO membership for the time being as it might destabilise the situation in Europe, says PM Magdalena Andersson.

Quote:

A Swedish application to join Nato would destabilise the current security situation in Europe, the country’s prime minister, Magdalena Andersson, has said.

Reuters in Stockholm quotes her as saying:

If Sweden were to choose to send in an application to join Nato in the current situation, it would further destabilise this area of Europe and increase tensions.

Even before the attack on Ukraine, Russia’s military build-up triggered a debate in non-Nato Finland and Sweden on joining the transatlantic military alliance.

GUARDIAN

[sackett]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Update

Sweden has decided against NATO membership for the time being as it might destabilise the situation in Europe, says PM Magdalena Andersson.

GUARDIAN

The Swedes, Finns, and everybody else are leary of worsening Putler's fears of encirclement.

[Vixen]

Not so-Latest Update: Helsingin Sanomat reveals that 98 MP's are in favour of joining NATO with just 14 against.

This is coming up for discussion this spring and there could be an application as early as May.

Finland putting in an order for 64 F-35 stealth fighter jets from America and President Niinisto's New Year speech would have signalled Finland's intentions to Russia, and hence its sabre-rattling (as Ninnisto calls it).

Quote:

Here are the NATO positions of all MPs at the moment: 98 in favor of NATO membership, 14 against

HS - as of 18.3.2022

[Vixen]

Former Swedish Prime Minister Carl Bildt tweets:

Quote:

Carl Bildt
@carlbildt
In the morning news from back home I see that there is emerging a clear majority in the 🇸🇪 parliament for NATO membership when 🇫🇮 asks for the same. A solid security analysis is obviously needed, and modalities during the next few weeks remain to be sorted out. But that’s it.
8:54 AM · Apr 9, 2022·Tweetbot for iΟS

https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status...t4pkR49DcQsAqg

[llwyd]

Yeah, the application for membership will be sent before the summer. And that will make for some interesting times as regards for our ever so unhinged neighbour...

[Vixen]

Ominous threat:

Quote:

Russia sends ominous warning on 'destruction' of Finland in major threat
FINLAND would stare down "destruction" if it were to join the ranks of NATO, a Russian politician has said.

<snip>

On Thursday, Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov said that Russia would “rebalance the situation” with its own actions if Finland and Sweden join NATO.

Vladimir Dzhabarov, a Russian senator since 2009, warned that Finland joining NATO would be a “terrible tragedy” that would make it a valid “target”.

He added that such a move could ensure the “destruction of their country”.

He said: “If the leadership of Finland goes for it, it will be a strategic mistake.

“Finland, which has been successfully developing all these years thanks to close trade and economic ties with Russia, would become a target.

“I think it [would be] a terrible tragedy for the entire Finnish people.”

DE

Another war criminal to add to the list.

[dudalb]

A. Let FInland and Sweden in.
B. Kick Hungary out.

[Hercules56]

Finland and Sweden best apply ASAP

[dudalb]

Putin put a Syrian veteren in charge of the Ukraine.
This has to raise new concerns about chemical weapons.

[Craig4]

Originally Posted by dudalb

A. Let FInland and Sweden in.
B. Kick Hungary out.

NATO and the EU have enough screws to turn on Hungary. They'll play ball. Putin has nowhere near as many carrots and sticks as the West does.

[Vixen]

It seems Russia have moved some heavy artillery along the Leningrad Oblast, filmed back in February and to include a road sign pointing to Helsinki.

Quote:

Tweet
See new Tweets
Conversation
OSINTdefender
@sentdefender
There are Unconfirmed reports today that Russian Forces in the Leningrad Region near the City of Vyborg are beginning to move Heavy Military Equipment including K-300P Bastion Coastal Defense Missile Systems towards the Gulf of Finland and the Finnish Border.

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/sta...0uNOPtSOB1q-8Q

[Vixen]

...I should add that Finland has high-tech listening posts every nanometre of the 1,340 km border and have a strategy of blowing up any tank that so much steps one milimetre onto Finnish soil. You will not be seeing any 40km convoys!