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Tags nato , Russia-Finland relations , Russia-Sweden relations , Russia-Ukraine war , vladimir putin

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Old 11th April 2022, 03:48 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...I should add that Finland has high-tech listening posts every nanometre of the 1,340 km border and have a strategy of blowing up any tank that so much steps one milimetre onto Finnish soil. You will not be seeing any 40km convoys!
Every nanometer?
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Old 11th April 2022, 04:02 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Every nanometer?
Every nanonanonano.
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Old 11th April 2022, 10:09 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Every nanometer?
They have plans to do it every Planck Length but the details are a bit fuzzy.
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Old 12th April 2022, 04:26 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller View Post
They have plans to do it every Planck Length but the details are a bit fuzzy.
You've got it. We do not joke about these things.
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Old 12th April 2022, 06:48 AM   #125
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Part of being an alliance is sharing standards for seamless operations - anything from doctrine to command&control to structures to munitions to crypto.

I imagine Sweden and Finland have all along emulated NATO standards anyway and should not require lots of change. Can anyone comment on this with any competence?
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Old 12th April 2022, 01:52 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Part of being an alliance is sharing standards for seamless operations - anything from doctrine to command&control to structures to munitions to crypto.

I imagine Sweden and Finland have all along emulated NATO standards anyway and should not require lots of change. Can anyone comment on this with any competence?
The Finnish military is pretty advanced has been up to Nato standards for quite a while, albeit restricted by the post-war treaty that stopped it having nuclear subs. Has very sophisticated intelligence gathering.

There is a full breakdown here:

https://www.globalfirepower.com/coun...20'perfect').
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Old 12th April 2022, 01:56 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Part of being an alliance is sharing standards for seamless operations - anything from doctrine to command&control to structures to munitions to crypto.

I imagine Sweden and Finland have all along emulated NATO standards anyway and should not require lots of change. Can anyone comment on this with any competence?
Sweden are NATO in all but name and have been for years. Their equipment and structure is mostly to NATO standard.
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Old 12th April 2022, 01:57 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Finnish military is pretty advanced has been up to Nato standards for quite a while, albeit restricted by the post-war treaty that stopped it having nuclear subs. Has very sophisticated intelligence gathering.

There is a full breakdown here:

https://www.globalfirepower.com/coun...20'perfect').
Finland uses NATO standard for some equipment but not 'deeper' structure
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Old 12th April 2022, 02:01 PM   #129
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Sweden and Finland, additionally, are both in the EU and part of the Joint Expeditionary Force of northern Europe, which includes the nordic countries, Netherlands and the UK. Sweden has an impressive naval base. Finland has conscription for all males between 17 and 28, depending on whether you need to defer it for studies. Massive reserve force. Actual experience as it has been 'ready' ever since the 1940's. Only one main road connects to Russia.
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Old 12th April 2022, 02:21 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sweden and Finland, additionally, are both in the EU and part of the Joint Expeditionary Force of northern Europe, which includes the nordic countries, Netherlands and the UK. Sweden has an impressive naval base. Finland has conscription for all males between 17 and 28, depending on whether you need to defer it for studies. Massive reserve force. Actual experience as it has been 'ready' ever since the 1940's. Only one main road connects to Russia.
Just what NATO needs another half trained conscript army.

How does being 'ready ever since 1940' equal 'Actual experience'?

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 12th April 2022 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 12th April 2022, 02:32 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Just what NATO needs another half trained conscript army.

How does being 'ready ever since 1940' equal 'Actual experience'?
Shelves in supermarkets still heaving with war magazines. Regular exercises.
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Old 12th April 2022, 03:06 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Shelves in supermarkets still heaving with war magazines. Regular exercises.
How is that 'actual experience'?
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Old 13th April 2022, 12:30 AM   #133
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Thanks for the discussion
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Old 13th April 2022, 04:47 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How is that 'actual experience'?
Literally, hundreds of years of warfare with Russia (aka Novogorod/Muscovy/USSR) Finland and Sweden (aka Finland and Sweden, Sweden, Karelia, Ingria and Livonia [Estonia/Latvia/Wesenburg etc]) means Sweden and especially Finland, has a deep understanding of the mind, motive and method of the Russian. Add on the more recent Winter War and Continuation War, with some veterans still alive who remember it.

Quote:
1. The Swedish- Novgorodian wars 1150 – 1323
Swedish–Novgorodian Wars were a series of conflicts in the 12th and 13th centuries between the Republic of Novgorod and medieval Sweden over control of the Gulf of Finland, an area vital to the Hanseatic League and part of the Varangian-Byzantine trade route. The Swedish attacks against Orthodox Russians had religious overtones, but before the 14th century there is no knowledge of official crusade bulls issued by the pope.
2. The Treaty of Nöteborg, also known as the Treaty of Oreshek (Swedish: Freden i Nöteborg, Russian: Ореховецкий мир, Finnish: Pähkinäsaaren rauha), is a conventional name for the peace treaty signed at Orekhovets (Swedish: Nöteborg, Finnish: Pähkinäsaari) on 12 August 1323. It was the first settlement between Sweden and the Novgorod Republic regulating their border. Three years later, Novgorod signed the Treaty of Novgorod with the Norwegians.
3. Principality of Tver (Russian: Тверское княжество) was a Russian principality or duchy, which existed between the 13th and the 15th centuries. It was one of the states established after the decay of the Kievan Rus', and in the 13th century Tver rivaled the Principality of Moscow and aimed to become the center of the united Russian state. Eventually it lost, decayed, and in 1485 was annexed by the Grand Duchy of Moscow.[1] The principality was located approximately in the area currently occupied by Tver Oblast and the eastern part of Smolensk Oblast of Russia. The capital of the principality was Tver.


Quote:
In late 1200s, first real castles were built in a few spots in Finland, to be strongholds of Swedish governors. And, the second bigger conquest took place in early 1290s when the swedish chieftain Torkel, the marshal, trekked with troops (against the influence of NOVGOROD) to coast of Karelia and founded Viipuri fortress.
Quote:
The major turning point into more permanent conflict between Sweden and Novgorod arrived with Sweden's firmer organization into the Catholic Church in the 12th century[citation needed] and papal involvement in crusades against lands controlled by the Orthodox Church.

The 12th century is poorly documented in Sweden, and Russian documents are fragmented. From the surviving sources, however, it seems evident that the newly founded republic and Sweden drifted into hostilities that could not be permanently settled ever again.

According to the First Novgorod Chronicle, the Swedish troops attacked the Novgorod merchants somewhere in the Baltic Sea region and killed 150 Novgorodians in 1142. It is the first known case of hostilities between Sweden and Novgorod. In 1164, a strong Swedish fleet approached Ladoga but was soundly defeated with most of its ships captured by Novgorod.
References:

Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_N%C3%B6teborg
Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedis...rs#cite_note-3
Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Finnish_wars
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Old 13th April 2022, 04:53 AM   #135
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No, that doesn't mean that anyone alive in Finland today has any 'practical experience' of warfare.
You could apply it to any country that has ever had a war in it's history and call it 'practical experience'
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Old 13th April 2022, 05:42 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
No, that doesn't mean that anyone alive in Finland today has any 'practical experience' of warfare.
You could apply it to any country that has ever had a war in it's history and call it 'practical experience'
Exactly. My grandfather was in the SAS during WWII, doesn't mean that I wouldn't be anything other than useless as a soldier.
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Old 13th April 2022, 07:11 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Exactly. My grandfather was in the SAS during WWII, doesn't mean that I wouldn't be anything other than useless as a soldier.
Obviously not. However, if you went to Sandhurst Training Academy, or similar, all of the tactics, strategy and leaderships skills that have been handed down through the generations will be passed on to you. That might include knowledge and special insight your grandfather might have possessed as a result of his own experiences.
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Old 13th April 2022, 07:24 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Obviously not. However, if you went to Sandhurst Training Academy, or similar, all of the tactics, strategy and leaderships skills that have been handed down through the generations will be passed on to you. That might include knowledge and special insight your grandfather might have possessed as a result of his own experiences.
The Russians have a hundred years and more of warfare continuity. It doesn't necessarily mean much.

What military strategists, analysts, and historians tend to agree matters most here is veteran cadres. Units with at least some troops that have actually seen combat perform better than units without. An army with a veteran cadre of officers and NCOs has a marked advantage over an army that doesn't, all else being equal.

Obviously Russia has a lot more recent combat experience than Finland. But all else is not equal, and Finland probably has plenty of other advantages over the Russians right now. But a long history of warfare isn't one of them.
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Old 13th April 2022, 07:40 AM   #139
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100,000 Russians died invading a country of 3.7 million.
I think the Russians would think twice about trying that again.
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Old 13th April 2022, 08:57 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
100,000 Russians died invading a country of 3.7 million.
I think the Russians would think twice about trying that again.
Given the commitment that they already have in Ukraine and their miserable performance there, the Russians may very well lack the capacity to undertake anything other than token military action unless they resort to WMD.
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Old 13th April 2022, 09:26 AM   #141
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Finland and Sweden do not need to join NATO. They could whoop Russia ass all by themselves.
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Old 13th April 2022, 09:38 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I imagine Sweden and Finland have all along emulated NATO standards anyway and should not require lots of change. Can anyone comment on this with any competence?
Yep, Finnish army is mostly using Nato standards and has been practicing with Nato forces for years now. Very seamless co-operation.
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Old 13th April 2022, 09:46 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Just what NATO needs another half trained conscript army.
Well, what has been said by our officers and trainers is that our conscripts tend to fare very well in our rather unique subarctic and absolutely forested and marshy conditions compared with fully professional forces. Obviously you have to take that with a pinch salt, but I would think that our army would be rather effective in defending our soil.

I mean aren't Ukrainians for quite a large part conscripts and Russians (supposedly) mostly contracted, at least semi-professional soldiers? So, I'm not sure if the tone of the remark of yours is totally fair. For our part we would need more fighter and naval support and more long range missiles plus additional modern AA systems - which we are rather hurriedly purchasing from Israel (our artillery is the biggest in Western Europe), but I doubt that we would very quickly ask for or need Nato ground forces to help to deal with Russians, thank you very much.

edit - This is bit rosy but we have never really disarmed after the end of the Cold War (unlike many Nato members in Europe with their tiny but admittedly highly trained professional forces) and after 2014 have been busily upgrading and just now decided on a new large armament program for the next 3-5 years). We have all the time been preparing for a large scale land war in our defence friendly terrain and climate:

https://www.ft.com/content/c5e376f9-...8-1873b2ef1924

Last edited by llwyd; 13th April 2022 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 13th April 2022, 10:13 AM   #144
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And of course in one area of military equipment we are the sole world leader and could be of great assistance for our new Nato allies: field saunas
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Old 13th April 2022, 10:21 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by llwyd View Post
And of course in one area of military equipment we are the sole world leader and could be of great assistance for our new Nato allies: field saunas
When you enter one, how do you identify the highest ranking soldier?
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Old 13th April 2022, 10:24 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
When you enter one, how do you identify the highest ranking soldier?
Oh, the longstanding military tradition is that in sauna you don't have ranks - I witnessed that during my conscription time. We would go to sauna at least once a week, and no yes or no sirs there
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Old 13th April 2022, 10:34 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
When you enter one, how do you identify the highest ranking soldier? : )
Whoever isn't standing at attention, if you know what I mean.
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Old 13th April 2022, 11:23 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Obviously not. However, if you went to Sandhurst Training Academy, or similar, all of the tactics, strategy and leaderships skills that have been handed down through the generations will be passed on to you. That might include knowledge and special insight your grandfather might have possessed as a result of his own experiences.
But that wouldn't be practical experience, it would be theory.

Practical experience would involve actually going to war.

UK and US forces have a lot of practical experience gained over the last couple of decades, most armies not so much.

I have more practical experience of naval warfare than anyone in the navy at the moment apart from a few senior rates and officers.
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Old 13th April 2022, 01:07 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Finland and Sweden do not need to join NATO. They could whoop Russia ass all by themselves.
Maybe, but being part of NATO is one hell of a detterent to Russia.
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Old 13th April 2022, 01:08 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by llwyd View Post
Oh, the longstanding military tradition is that in sauna you don't have ranks - I witnessed that during my conscription time. We would go to sauna at least once a week, and no yes or no sirs there
I have seen photos of improvies Sauna in the field during the Winter War.
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Old 13th April 2022, 01:42 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
But that wouldn't be practical experience, it would be theory.

Practical experience would involve actually going to war.

UK and US forces have a lot of practical experience gained over the last couple of decades, most armies not so much.

I have more practical experience of naval warfare than anyone in the navy at the moment apart from a few senior rates and officers.
They go on a lot of exercises. Two brothers went through Sandhurst - they were ready for the Iraq war - had been training ever since they were boy cadets.

In any case, the experience of countries like the UK and the USA are different from that of Sweden and Finland. OK, so Sweden hasn't really had a war for a couple of hundred years. Like the UK, USA and others, it has done' peacekeeping duties' - as has Finland - and protectorate stuff, such as Kosovo and various areas in Africa. Apart from WWI and WWII against Germany, the UK hasn't really had any enemies - and yes, the World Wars were the mothers of all wars with >20m dead - most of its 'war' efforts have been quelling 'rebellions' in parts of the Empire and that type of thing. Apart from those major wars the only real war Britain has had with Germany was the Seven Years War. USA had a war in the 1700's with the British, leading to independence, and apart from that and Canada, it hasn't really been threatened by anybody. It has had ideological wars, against communism and Muslim fundamentalists, sure.

Sweden/Finland OTOH has had between 32 and 42 wars with Russia over the last twelve hundred years - that's almost three wars every century.

These are wars in which one's very territory and way of life are in danger.

Quote:
Wars between Russia and Sweden have been recorded since as early as the 12th century. These conflicts include:
War Notes
Swedish–Novgorodian Wars
A series of conflicts between the 12th and 14th centuries.
Russo-Swedish War (1495–1497)
Result of an alliance between Ivan III of Russia and Hans of Denmark.

Russo-Swedish War (1554–1557)
Prelude to the Livonian War.
Livonian War (1558–1582) Fought for control of Old Livonia in the territory of present-day Estonia and Latvia.

Russo-Swedish War (1590–1595)
Instigated by Boris Godunov in the hope of gaining the territory of the Duchy of Estonia.

De la Gardie campaign (1609-1610)
A military campaign to put Vasili IV on the Russian throne. Part of the Polish–Muscovite War (1605–18). The campaign can be considered a prelude to the Ingrian War.
Ingrian War (1610-1617) Including an attempt to put a Swedish duke on the Russian throne.
Russo-Swedish War (1656–1658)
Part of the Second Northern War.

Great Northern War (1700–1721)
Conflict in which a coalition led by the Tsardom of Russia successfully contested the supremacy of the Swedish Empire in northern Central Europe and Eastern Europe.
Russo-Swedish War (1741–1743)
Also known as the Hats' Russian War.
Russo-Swedish War (1788–1790)
Also known as Gustav III's Russian War in Sweden, and Catherine II's Swedish War in Russia.
Finnish War (1808–1809) Resulted in the eastern third of Sweden being established as the autonomous Grand Duchy of Finland within the Russian control.
Wiki

Then there are the Finland - Russia wars (Finland post independence from Sweden):

Quote:
The following is a list of Russo-Finnish wars.
Name Finnish part Russian part Years Result Aftermath
Finnish Civil War
White Guard
German Empire
Red Guard
Soviet Russia
1917–1918 Finnish victory Russian presence in Finland ceased,[1] Heimosodat

Soviet-Finnish border conflicts (Heimosodat)
Volunteers Various 1918–1922 Undecided Treaty of Tartu

Winter War
Finland
Soviet Union
1939–1940 Moscow Peace Treaty
Continuation War

Continuation War
Finland
Nazi Germany
Soviet Union
1941–1944 Soviet Victory Moscow Armistice, Lapland war, Finlandization

Wiki

It'd be quite wrong to say practical lessons have not been learnt from them. For example, many of the wars were about control of the Baltic Region (the Baltic States) and others were to do with boundaries (reclaiming them or stealing them). The main protagonists against Sweden/Finland - once the Danes were dealt with - would have been Ivan III, Ivan the Terrible and then Peter the Great, who caused the downfall of the Swedish Empire. Russia was in a Northern Alliance with Denmark-Norway, Poland-Lithuania and Saxony in the Great Northern War versus the Swedish Empire, 1700 - 1721.

Just about every family in Finland has a family member who has fought against the Russians. In addition, their ancestors likely fought in many of the numerous other wars.

As an example, my ancestor Johan von Monkhoven was killed at the Siege of Gdov in 1614.

Quote:
The Siege of Gdov was part of the Time of Troubles and an episode of the Ingrian War.

In 1613, the Swedes, who captured Novgorod, approached Gdov twice, but as a result of the sorties of the garrison and with the help of the Pskov, the siege was withdrawn. In July 1614, the Swedes managed to defeat the Russian army sent for the liberation of Novgorod in the Battle of Bronnitsy, after which they firmly captured the military initiative in the north-west of Russia.
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Quote:
In September 1614, Monkhoven besieged the city of Audova. Their job was to prevent townspeople from repairing crops outside fields outside the wall. It was decided to use the harvest for the consumption of own troops during the coming winter. The city was demolished and as soon as a sufficient hole in the wall had been obtained, an assault was made. The first attack failed, and at the top of the second rocket, Lieutenant General van Monkhoven himself settled down. The attack was the last of his glorious soldiers. He met his end at the Audova City Wall on 10 September, 1614 with a cannon ball. There was no need for a third as the city surrendered to the king of Sweden. Audova or Gdov is located on the eastern shore of Lake Peaks in Russia.
from Timo Kause

Van Monkhoven was born in the Netherlands in Brabant, had brought a load of troops from Denmark to fight for the Danes against the Swedes. When the Swedes made peace with the Danes, he joined the Swedes in fighting against the Russians. War was a skill:

Quote:
Major General Jan van Monkhoven or aka named Johan Mönnichhofen was a foreign-born officer whom King Gustav II Adolf* greatly appreciated because of the fact that he understood better than others to keep his people in the line without falling victim to the anger of his subordinates. From time to time, he certainly felt powerless in the midst of those crude, wild and stubborn fighters, but he knew how to deal with his subordinates. The troops were assembled from one of the European loose people. They had everything to win but nothing to lose. They went to the prince as a prince, if the benefits only improved. Soldier Jan van Monkhoven was both brave and skilled, but his career broke into this Russian war, like many other foreign officers.
ibid

You can say it is 'theory' but I would say it comes with the territory and years of knowing the enemy.

*King Gustav II Adolf, better known as Gustavus Adolphus, is considered one of Europe's finest warriors, together with Peter the Great.
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Old 13th April 2022, 04:20 PM   #152
Captain_Swoop
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Which has what to do with 'practical experience'?
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Old 13th April 2022, 04:40 PM   #153
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Two guys going to Sandhurst and then to war and then coming out alright on the other end isn't meaningful. Veterancy is meaningful on the scale of large units. It's a consistent pattern, running up and down the chain of command, across multiple units and multiple roles. Combat arms, logistics, intelligence, strategy... all these play a part.

As to exercises. Exercises are important. Good exercises familiarize certain parts of the command structure and certain roles with some of the challenges that will face them in war.

A good mobility exercise familiarizes commanders and logistics personnel with the challenges of getting large amounts of troops, equipment, and supplies into position in a timely and coordinated manner. It doesn't necessarily prepare them to solve all the difficulties of actually doing it under combat. But it does give them some ability to handle the kinds of basic problems that might prevent them from ever making it into combat. It also gives senior planners valuable data on what their forces are currently capable of delivering, in ideal circumstances.

And so forth. Exercises are no substitute for real combat. But regularly, properly exercised armies perform much better than their less-well-prepared counterparts.

I've participated in command post exercises. They're not much different from a really elaborate cosplay, or a serious HEMA event. You drive out onto the range, set up a bunch of tents and generators and monitors and whatnot, and spend a few days going through the motions.

I assume that in a real war, I'd find going through the same motions much more difficult. But at least I wouldn't be standing around with my ass in my hand, wondering what the basic motions are, or what my actual task and goal is.

So yeah, Vixen's hyperbole aside, I have a lot of confidence in Finnish and Swedish military exercise, and in their results. I think it's safe to assume that their Russian counterparts have not been regularly, properly exercised in the basic motions of warfare.
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Old 13th April 2022, 06:06 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Two guys going to Sandhurst and then to war and then coming out alright on the other end isn't meaningful. Veterancy is meaningful on the scale of large units. It's a consistent pattern, running up and down the chain of command, across multiple units and multiple roles. Combat arms, logistics, intelligence, strategy... all these play a part.

As to exercises. Exercises are important. Good exercises familiarize certain parts of the command structure and certain roles with some of the challenges that will face them in war.

A good mobility exercise familiarizes commanders and logistics personnel with the challenges of getting large amounts of troops, equipment, and supplies into position in a timely and coordinated manner. It doesn't necessarily prepare them to solve all the difficulties of actually doing it under combat. But it does give them some ability to handle the kinds of basic problems that might prevent them from ever making it into combat. It also gives senior planners valuable data on what their forces are currently capable of delivering, in ideal circumstances.

And so forth. Exercises are no substitute for real combat. But regularly, properly exercised armies perform much better than their less-well-prepared counterparts.

I've participated in command post exercises. They're not much different from a really elaborate cosplay, or a serious HEMA event. You drive out onto the range, set up a bunch of tents and generators and monitors and whatnot, and spend a few days going through the motions.

I assume that in a real war, I'd find going through the same motions much more difficult. But at least I wouldn't be standing around with my ass in my hand, wondering what the basic motions are, or what my actual task and goal is.

So yeah, Vixen's hyperbole aside, I have a lot of confidence in Finnish and Swedish military exercise, and in their results. I think it's safe to assume that their Russian counterparts have not been regularly, properly exercised in the basic motions of warfare.
I agree, I am sure the Finns are very well trained and proficient soldiers, same for the Swedes.

We used to exercise constantly. Anti-sub, anti-air, antis surface, fire in machinery space, helicopter crashed on flight deck, fire in mess deck, flooding in machinery space, chemical attack etc.
When it wes for real it was the same but for keeps.
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Old 13th April 2022, 06:13 PM   #155
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"Train as you fight, fight as you train."

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Old 13th April 2022, 09:25 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I have seen photos of improvies Sauna in the field during the Winter War.
Yep, that was an incredible feeling for troops in rotation to come back from the frontlines and get thoroughly clean in the saunas and afterwards getting clean and dry clothes. To this day one of the first things our peacekeepers build in their bases is a sauna and we have tent saunas in our military storages in case of mobilization.
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Old 14th April 2022, 01:24 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by llwyd View Post
Yep, that was an incredible feeling for troops in rotation to come back from the frontlines and get thoroughly clean in the saunas and afterwards getting clean and dry clothes. To this day one of the first things our peacekeepers build in their bases is a sauna and we have tent saunas in our military storages in case of mobilization.
So akin to British tanks having a boiling vessel that allows one to have a brew, as far as culturally-specific morale boosting equipment then?
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Old 14th April 2022, 03:28 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
So akin to British tanks having a boiling vessel that allows one to have a brew, as far as culturally-specific morale boosting equipment then?
US tanks and APCs have a BV these days. It is for more than just tea, it is used to heat MREs and as a fryer.
They are more than a luxury, they allow a crew 'buttoned up' in and NBC environment to cook food without having to open up.
Challenger tanks also have a 'disposal port' that allows for 'waste' to be dumped outside the vehicle.
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Old 14th April 2022, 04:58 AM   #159
llwyd
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
So akin to British tanks having a boiling vessel that allows one to have a brew, as far as culturally-specific morale boosting equipment then?
A bit like that I guess - but they are also very practical for really thorough cleaning, thoug of course simultanously an inherent part of the culture too. Our apartment block in the outskirts of Helsinki has both a bomb shelter and a communal sauna
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Old 14th April 2022, 07:51 AM   #160
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Russia threatens to move nukes to Baltic region if Finland, Sweden join NATO

By Emily Rauhala and Adela Suliman

Today at 6:30 a.m. EDT|Updated today at 9:44 a.m. EDT

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...d-sweden-nato/
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