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Cont: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine (2)

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Klimax

NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
Klimax
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The Great Zaganza said:
the fundamental problem of Communism is how information needs to flow - top-down control can only work when bottom-up information is moving swiftly and accurately.
An A.I. system using real-life data could probably manage it.
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Chile with help of IBm tried it. System called Cybersyn based on cybernetics/theory of system.

Experiment prematurely terminated by coup.

angrysoba said:
I would have been against it, but it is looking more and more necessary. Given that the war will slowly grind in Russia's favour towards an inevitable battlefield victory without NATO air power coming to the rescue, I now see it as worth doing.

Also: bonus video of Russian helicopter getting shot down.

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1500038514037202947
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Will it? Inevitable? Russians would love your certainty.


Posted By: jimbob
 
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JihadJane said:
Or:

- NATO says NO because it doesn't want to start a nuclear war.

- NATO says NO because Ukraine was always just a sacrificial pawn in NATO/US geopolitical power games (maintain unipolar global hegemony).
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So if NATO provides a no fly zone, it's responsible for starting a nuclear war, and if they don't it's guilty of sacrificing Ukraine for the sake of politics.

I hope someone's paying you to type this drivel.
 
Oystein said:
What you describe there is "make absolutely 100% certain that the territorial integrity of Ukraine will forever be destroyed", which is kinda the precise and exact opposite of "help preserve the territorial integrity of Ukraine".
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Protecting the western part of Ukraine doesn't mean renouncing its eastern and southern parts.

It seems to me that, if NATO could have the courage to send troops in the western regions of Ukraine, after a request by the legitimate government, at least, refugees would have somewhere to go, and the Ukrainians would no longer be so desperate.

In 1939, the U.K. and France declared war on Germany because of the invasion of Poland, which was, in my opinion, a terribly counter-productive move (no details here) and an overreaction.

In this situation, when we have a country (Russia) with dictatorial tendencies which attacks its western neighbor, using mostly fake reasons for justification, it is not desirable to declare war on Russia (good that NATO doesn't do it), and NATO is right to not impose a no-fly zone over Ukraine (Zelensky requests it, but this would involve shooting down Russian planes right away and would be very dangerous; in addition, it's not really up to NATO to decide who may or may not fly over Ukraine).

But, there is, in my opinion, much more that NATO can do to help Ukraine, in addition to sending mostly light weapons, which include Stinger anti-aircraft and Javelin anti-tank missiles.

NATO could send quickly a large number of armed drones, used by the U.S. military, warplanes (and provide training for Ukrainian pilots), and send a protection ground force in the west of Ukraine.

On the political side, Ukraine could also renounce Crimea, and the two independent republics of Donbass.

Everyone is baffled as to why Ukraine has not done more to attack the Russian convoy as it is a sitting duck for drone and airstrikes.

There are several possible explanations, Ukraine may be running out of armed drones and its small, outnumbered air force may be wary of being shot down by Russian air defence batteries.

Ben Barry from the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) suggests the Ukrainians may well be safeguarding what resources they do have in readiness to counter-attack when the Russians get closer to Kyiv.
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(https://www.bbc.com/news/world-60617145).
 
Klimax said:
Will it? Inevitable? Russians would love your certainty.
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I certainly hope not. I just worry that ultimately they have too much firepower on their side.

While the Russian military is crap, there is just a LOT more of it and with a lot more firepower.

I certainly hope that Ukraine can stave off the Russians, but it would be an amazing feat if accomplished.
 
Alina Kabaeva, a woman believed to be Putin's mistress and a gymnast claims the western world is hypocritical :

“I believe that there has never been a more shameful page in the history of world sports. The leadership of many international sports organizations has been engaged in completely unsportsmanlike affairs for a long time and under various pretexts. Now it is no longer hidden. Their “concern” for the world is as hypocritical as the fight for a clean sport. They have not removed from the competition any country that participated in the destruction of hundreds of thousands of civilians in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya, Syria. But sports officials were very angry when Russia decided to protect the Donbass and Lugansk from the Nazis, ”she said.
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I'm always puzzled if being so close to Putin does she actually believe this propaganda or is she is a willing participant?
 
Ceasefire roundup


The ceasefire was due to begin at 09:00 local time (07:00 GMT), with the first evacuations starting two hours later

Mariupol's deputy mayor said Russian troops were still shelling the city, and fighting continued on the agreed escape route

Ukraine postponed the evacuation, with civilians in Mariupol being told of the news via loudspeaker

Russia's defence ministry said civilians had not used the escape routes - and accused Ukrainian authorities of preventing people from leaving
It says Ukrainian "nationalists" prevented civilians from leaving the the cities, according to Russia's Ria news agency.
The ministry said that Russian forces came under fire after it had set up humanitarian corridors for civilians to leave the city.
 
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GrandMasterFox said:
Alina Kabaeva, a woman believed to be Putin's mistress and a gymnast claims the western world is hypocritical :



I'm always puzzled if being so close to Putin does she actually believe this propaganda or is she is a willing participant?
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There is some intelligence in her analysis, but it is obvious that what Putin is doing is much more than protecting the two republics of Donbass.
 
GrandMasterFox said:
I'm always puzzled if being so close to Putin does she actually believe this propaganda or is she is a willing participant?
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Most Russians apparently completely buy into Russian propaganda.

A friend of mine from Russia, called his dad to talk about this and his dad was saying something like "I am really against this war. If only the Ukrainians were not doing their nazi genocide thing..."
 
Ukraine said 66,000 men have returned home from abroad to fight
 
Michel H said:
Protecting the western part of Ukraine doesn't mean renouncing its eastern and southern parts.

...

On the political side, Ukraine could also renounce Crimea, and the two independent republics of Donbass.
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Hmmmm... These look rather contradictory to me.
 
dudalb said:
I almost never agree with presitge about anything but I do the "actual philosophy of communisma'.
I don't give a rat's butt about comnunism n the abstract. All I care about is how it worked in the real world, and the real world is has been a total failure at best, and a murder machine as bad as anything the world has seen at it's worst.
I don't see how anybody can make excuses for it.
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The problem of course, is it's not communism at that point. Not exactly a surprise that some individuals would wave the noble goals of communism and then do something else. Hitler's party is the National Socialist party. In practice it was never Socialist. It was Hitler's party. Kind of like today's GOP. They wave the American flag but it isn't really about America, it's about Trump.
 
angrysoba said:
Most Russians apparently completely buy into Russian propaganda.

A friend of mine from Russia, called his dad to talk about this and his dad was saying something like "I am really against this war. If only the Ukrainians were not doing their nazi genocide thing..."
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I'm not asking about the general population. We're talking about a woman who is as close to Putin as you can get. She is speculated by some as his mistress and by others to actually be his wife (that he divorced his current wife and married her in secret). It is believed he is the father of her children.

So she is someone very close to him - which makes me wonder how much she buys into things or does she know what the heck is going on for real.
 
Wildy said:
Hmmmm... These look rather contradictory to me.
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It depends on what you call Ukraine, and on what the Ukrainian borders should be.

I believe Ukraine should renonce Russian-speaking Crimea and the two Russian-speaking republics of Donbass, and should have done it a long time ago to prevent this war.

Making these political concessions could perhaps still save many lives.
 
Michel H said:
It depends on what you call Ukraine, and on what the Ukrainian borders should be.
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Well in the case of Ukraine they believe the borders should include the parts you believe should belong to Russia. I get that you don't and that's why you don't see it as contradictory.

I believe Ukraine should renonce Russian-speaking Crimea and the two Russian-speaking republics of Donbass, and should have done it a long time ago to prevent this war.
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Why should Ukraine give up the entirety of the Donbass and Luhansk regions based on a "referendum" where only the people in the separatist controlled regions voted? Why doesn't the Ukraine controlled part get to decide which country they should belong to? Or do you simply believe that the language people speak automatically determines which country they want to belong to?

Making these political concessions could perhaps still save many lives.
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Or it won't do anything because those concessions are meaningless to the actual goal.
 
GrandMasterFox said:
I'm not asking about the general population. We're talking about a woman who is as close to Putin as you can get. She is speculated by some as his mistress and by others to actually be his wife (that he divorced his current wife and married her in secret). It is believed he is the father of her children.

So she is someone very close to him - which makes me wonder how much she buys into things or does she know what the heck is going on for real.
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Have you read her Wikipedia page? It pretty much answers all questions.
 
GrandMasterFox said:
I'm not asking about the general population. We're talking about a woman who is as close to Putin as you can get. She is speculated by some as his mistress and by others to actually be his wife (that he divorced his current wife and married her in secret). It is believed he is the father of her children.

So she is someone very close to him - which makes me wonder how much she buys into things or does she know what the heck is going on for real.
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If she's Putin's mistress and she supports it, she's a gangster's moll. Frankly I don't really care whether she is a true believer or someone putting on a front. It amounts to the same.
 
trustbutverify said:
Have you read her Wikipedia page? It pretty much answers all questions.
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I thought you were being sarcastic, but I guess not.
Yeah, I had no idea about her other positions.

That does answer things.

angrysoba said:
If she's Putin's mistress and she supports it, she's a gangster's moll. Frankly I don't really care whether she is a true believer or someone putting on a front. It amounts to the same.
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It actually isn't the same at all. People who willingly help with the propaganda and know it's a lie are more likely to turn over if they think their interest will serve better elsewhere.

Meanwhile fanatic true followers are likely to die for the cause no matter what.
 
GrandMasterFox said:
I thought you were being sarcastic, but I guess not.
Yeah, I had no idea about her other positions.

That does answer things.



It actually isn't the same at all. People who willingly help with the propaganda and know it's a lie are more likely to turn over if they think their interest will serve better elsewhere.

Meanwhile fanatic true followers are likely to die for the cause no matter what.
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Yup. No sarcasm intended.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Time for Russia to restock, refuel, rearm and regroup, I rather suspect.
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It wasn't a normal ceasefire, it was a couple of hours of not shelling a part of the city so civilians could evacuate safely.

During which they kept shelling anyway.
 
To carry over a previous post a little...

Did anyone really think the Russians would keep their side of this deal?
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I think that many of us had a glimmer of hope, but lacked trust. I put it in the "it would be nice if it turned out to be true" category, myself.

What good will that do them if there's no one to exchange it with? Maybe they can come up with a way to eat it when the food starts running out.
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I find myself rather untrusting towards any accounts that Russia actually has built up a large reserve of gold. Especially after the rampant corruption that's been displayed when it comes to the military. That's the kind of corruption that permeates the entire system and such bodes very ill for the rest.
 
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Michel H said:
It depends on what you call Ukraine, and on what the Ukrainian borders should be.

I believe Ukraine should renonce Russian-speaking Crimea and the two Russian-speaking republics of Donbass, and should have done it a long time ago to prevent this war.

Making these political concessions could perhaps still save many lives.
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The borders of Ukraine aren't really in doubt, with the possible exception of the Crimea. Donbass is certainly part of Ukraine and the speaking of Russian there is not a guide to whether a person who lives there feels Ukrainian or Russian. The Soviets tried to suppress the Ukrainian language and make everyone speak Russian. They also settled lots of Russians there and drove lots of Ukrainians out to other parts of the Soviet Union following the persecution of the Kulaks and devastation of the Holodomor.

So, no, the issue is not the location of Ukraine's borders. It's Putin's belief that Ukraine is historically part of "all the Russias" and rightly belongs to him.
 
Joe Biden is a Nazi.

Note: Link does not work because of forum autocensor. If you click, replace "********" with well-known term for cow feces.

Russian State TV Just Blew Up Putin’s ‘Nazi Ukraine’ ********
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Confusion reigns on Russia’s state TV, as panicked lawmakers and pundits try to explain to the public why their country invaded Ukraine and now faces crushing Western sanctions. And in the process of zealous propagandists striving to justify the unfathomable, they’ve inadvertently revealed too much.
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Two days earlier, on a state TV show 60 Minutes, journalist Andrei Sidorchik rode the concept all the way down the hill when he exclaimed: “Joe Biden is a Nazi. The U.S. congressmen⁠—Democrat and Republican⁠—are Nazis... German chancellor is a Nazi... EU leaders are Nazis... because their sanctions are attempting to preserve neo-Nazism in Ukraine.”
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Why, they make Hitler look like Karl Marx! :dl:



Link that should work

https://t.co/hdOLHKD0iC

(twitter has its own shortened URLs - so I used that)

Posted By: jimbob
 
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Aridas said:
To carry over a previous post a little...

I think that many of us had a glimmer of hope, but lacked trust. I put it in the "it would be nice if it turned out to be true" category, myself.
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Yes, I thought the Russians actually intended a ceasefire as it helps them. Time to sort out their resupply and for Ukrainian civilians to evacuate so they don't have to worry so much about harming non-combatants. (I'm not suggesting Putin gives a damn about that, but I presume ordinary Russian soldiers doing the actual fighting have no wish to kill Ukrainian civilians.)
 
Michel H said:
It depends on what you call Ukraine, and on what the Ukrainian borders should be.

I believe Ukraine should renonce Russian-speaking Crimea and the two Russian-speaking republics of Donbass, and should have done it a long time ago to prevent this war.

Making these political concessions could perhaps still save many lives.
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I believe Britain should have torn up that "scrap of paper" that got us into WWI when Germany entered Belgium. Making that political concession would have probably kept the British Empire intact. ;)
 
I think Putin's game plan is to try to get NATO troops fighting Russian troops to feed the narrative he is presenting to the Russian people and he doesn't really give a toss about Ukraine.

NATO is not falling for this and will instead arm the Ukrainians to the teeth and crush the Russian economy so Putin's own people remove him.
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
I believe Britain should have torn up that "scrap of paper" that got us into WWI when Germany entered Belgium. Making that political concession would have probably kept the British Empire intact. ;)
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That would be a fascinating alt-hist.

What's happening now is more like Britain invading the Republic of Ireland and the BBC broadcasting propaganda explaining that Ireland is historically part of the UK and British troops are being welcomed as liberators for saving Ireland from the EU.
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
I think Putin's game plan is to try to get NATO troops fighting Russian troops to feed the narrative he is presenting to the Russian people and he doesn't really give a toss about Ukraine.
NATO is not falling for this and will instead arm the Ukrainians to the teeth and crush the Russian economy so Putin's own people remove him.
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I disagree - I think he has been an absolute ruler for so long he's in the endgame stage. Everything he sees and hears is tailored to appease him, what he says and thinks is reflected back to him by his inner circle. He probably did believe that the Ukrainians would be on the streets with flowers to give to their liberators.
 
Aridas said:
...
I find myself rather untrusting towards any accounts that Russia actually has built up a large reserve of gold. Especially after the rampant corruption that's been displayed when it comes to the military. That's the kind of corruption that permeates the entire system and such bodes very ill for the rest.
Click to expand...

I certainly am very far from being an expert on the economics of gold reserves, but anyway, here is my hunch: the value of a rare commodity such as gold, and especially gold, depends on at least the main actors understanding how much there is of it total, who has it, and whether and when new supplies are being discovered and exploited. This knowledge has great importance for many state, corporate and private actors, and so I would guess the global flow of gold is closely monitored and analyzed constantly. Sure, there would be incentives to confuse competitors, but you could not fool all of them all of the time.
 
I see the BBC website has the following headline to an article:

"Putin says he has no intention of declaring martial law in Russia"

So martial law in Russia will begin in, what, maybe 48 hours?
 
The Russian media are lying to their people, and you can get 14 years in prison in Russia for criticizing the war. In contrast a British newspaper headline yesterday said of Putin.
' Who will rid the world of this ranting madman?'
Also a Russian businessman has offered a million dollars to anyone who will kill him, and a British MP has called upon the Russians to assassinate him.
 
trustbutverify said:
So if NATO provides a no fly zone, it's responsible for starting a nuclear war, and if they don't it's guilty of sacrificing Ukraine for the sake of politics.

I hope someone's paying you to type this drivel.
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Jihad Jane has been around for a while. She basically hates the West.
 
Darat said:
I disagree - I think he has been an absolute ruler for so long he's in the endgame stage. Everything he sees and hears is tailored to appease him, what he says and thinks is reflected back to him by his inner circle. He probably did believe that the Ukrainians would be on the streets with flowers to give to their liberators.
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For years Putin has been open hsi ultimate goal is to restore the old Soviet Union (which is pretty much the same as the old Imperial Russian Empire ) . People though he was not serious. He apparently was serious.
Same thing happened with Hitler. People blew off his goals in Mein Kapft as so much hot air; turned out he was deadly serious.
 
Steve said:
I see the BBC website has the following headline to an article:

"Putin says he has no intention of declaring martial law in Russia"

So martial law in Russia will begin in, what, maybe 48 hours?
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Any Putin or his government says should be regarded as a lie until proven otherwise.
 
Biden needs to announce a Oil Embargo agianst Russia now. He is going to have to do it anyway.
Frankly, I would support a total embargo on any American COmany doing business in Russia (throw in Belarus).All measures short of actual military conflict.
 
dudalb said:
Biden needs to announce a Oil Embargo agianst Russia now. He is going to have to do it anyway.
Frankly, I would support a total embargo on any American COmany doing business in Russia (throw in Belarus).All measures short of actual military conflict.
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Indeed.

An oil embargo probably would be mostly symbolic, but the rest.

And I can easily imagine, say Coca Cola (to take one company that said it will continue to trade in Russia) could lose more money from a boycott of its brands than they'd get from a single country in economic meltdown.
 
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