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Tags bill maher , vaccination

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Old 4th March 2005, 10:49 PM   #1
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Bill Maher says vaccines don't prevent disease

Yes, he really did say that. And also that Pasteur recanted on his deathbed. OK, that proves it then.

It ruined the rest of the show for me.

Ugh! In the words of Bugs Bunny: "what a maroon".
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Old 4th March 2005, 10:54 PM   #2
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Maybe he's just unaware of why FDR used a wheelchair, and how a few generations since haven't seen many of their own crippled and killed by Polio -- since Polio packed its bags and left town unexpectedly. Sheesh.
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Old 4th March 2005, 11:46 PM   #3
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Proof that intelligence is not a prerequisite for having a talk show... or even being a journalist.

You could alway send him this link:
http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/pasteur.htm ... and then ask him why there is a mumps epidemic in the UK, and why polio seems to pop up in parts of Nigeria that refused the vaccine.
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Old 5th March 2005, 01:20 AM   #4
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Was Maher maybe being sarcastic? Would one really think he himself rejects the existence of microbes?

Why was he saying that vaccines don't work? Who was he debating with? Why did the topic come up?
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Old 5th March 2005, 01:31 AM   #5
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I was watching The Shield the other day. The main character has a son that's autistic. This season they just started a new storyline about it. A lawyer involved in a class action lawsuit claiming a mercury additive in vaccines ( I don't think they mentioned Thymerosal by name) causes autism contacted him and his wife (soon to be ex). They had a chat with him, and the wife (a nurse) seemed to buy into this. Hopefully they'll eventually do the right thing on the show.
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Old 5th March 2005, 01:51 AM   #6
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Who is Bill Maher? Could someone give a quick precis for someone who is not a citizen of one of the former colonies

BSM
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Old 5th March 2005, 01:52 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Who is Bill Maher? Could someone give a quick precis for someone who is not a citizen of one of the former colonies

BSM
He's a comedian turned political satirist. Has a show called Real Time that discusses current issues with guests.
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Old 5th March 2005, 03:06 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Donks
He's a comedian turned political satirist. Has a show called Real Time that discusses current issues with guests.
So is the question whether this was dry humour, or whether he has turned out to be an idiot?
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Old 5th March 2005, 08:14 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hydrogen Cyanide
You could alway send him this link:
http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/pasteur.htm ... and then ask him why there is a mumps epidemic in the UK, and why polio seems to pop up in parts of Nigeria that refused the vaccine.
Good link, thanks. No point in sending it to him, though. I emailed him last year when he made a similar comment about vaccines (although just the flu vaccine, that time). I just got a canned reply that said, and I quote:

Quote:
Thanks for your note! Have a fantastic day!

Love, Bill

Bill Maher
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Old 5th March 2005, 08:18 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Was Maher maybe being sarcastic? Would one really think he himself rejects the existence of microbes?

Why was he saying that vaccines don't work? Who was he debating with? Why did the topic come up?
No, he wasn’t being sarcastic – he really believes this nonsense.

It came up in the context of why medical costs in the US are so high. We get sick because of all the processed foods we eat (it’s a conspiracy between the pharma companies and the food companies, or something), and disease isn’t caused by germs. I think.
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Old 5th March 2005, 08:21 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
So is the question whether this was dry humour, or whether he has turned out to be an idiot?
The transcript should be available shortly. This was a new episode so HBO hasn't released it yet. All previous transcripes are available so I expect this one will be too. I invoke the 48 hour rule...only because I can and everyone will ignore it anyway.
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Old 5th March 2005, 08:23 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Who is Bill Maher? Could someone give a quick precis for someone who is not a citizen of one of the former colonies

BSM
http://www.billmaher.com/

I normally like him - he's pretty good at political satire and has a lot of interesting guests.
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Old 5th March 2005, 10:35 AM   #13
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That's it. I am convinced. If Bill Maher says so it must be true. WHO is more qualified than he is? Oh, I see. WHO is Bill Maher.

(extremely bad pun intended)
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Old 5th March 2005, 10:41 AM   #14
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Well Billy Boy goes on my list next to the South African health minister who feels that HIV doesn't cause aids and we should eat garlic instead of requesting anti-retrovirals
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Old 5th March 2005, 01:06 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by RichardR
No, he wasn’t being sarcastic – he really believes this nonsense.

It came up in the context of why medical costs in the US are so high. We get sick because of all the processed foods we eat (it’s a conspiracy between the pharma companies and the food companies, or something), and disease isn’t caused by germs. I think.
Thank you.

I just can't wrap my head around it. What? Say What?? What?????

He's gone mad. He's nuts. He's lost it!

I just don't get it. Did he say what his source of information was or anything? Is he a scientologist now?
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Old 5th March 2005, 01:09 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
Well Billy Boy goes on my list next to the South African health minister who feels that HIV doesn't cause aids and we should eat garlic instead of requesting anti-retrovirals
LOL! Hey, I forgot to thank you for posting that thread. It's been a very interesting read.
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Old 5th March 2005, 02:31 PM   #17
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Well this us upsetting. I thought the only thing I didn't like about Maher's opinions was his apparent attitude all women are gold diggers. My first thought was as above, it must be some comment taken out of context. So I went to his website.

I haven't found Bill's official opinion so I'll wait for the transcripts but I did find this 12/04 forum thread re vaccines.


Eeek!! It's really bad. I will be posting my comments on there later tonight. The board is so slow to load pages right now, I'm going to wait and see if that is a traffic issue and try later. There are a few level headed posts but some twisted thinkers predominated and their last posts weren't addressed.

If the descriptions of Maher's positions are correct then ol' Bill is poorly educated as to how the immune system works. Sounds like he may be buying into the incorrect premise that fighting disease naturally strengthens your immune system more than fighting disease with vaccines, and, that antibiotics make you weaker rather than making the bacteria more resistant.

What a shame folks with such misconceptions haven't been enlightened by those more knowledgeable considering how much bad influence such public speakers have on susceptible minds.
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Old 5th March 2005, 02:39 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
Well Billy Boy goes on my list next to the South African health minister who feels that HIV doesn't cause aids and we should eat garlic instead of requesting anti-retrovirals
Garlic might actually be useful for people with AIDS. It probably won't have any impact on the AIDS itself but may prevent certain types of secondary infection that AIDS victims are prone to get.
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Old 5th March 2005, 02:50 PM   #19
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Originally posted by jambo372
Garlic might actually be useful for people with AIDS. It probably won't have any impact on the AIDS itself but may prevent certain types of secondary infection that AIDS victims are prone to get.
Thing is, using garlic instead of an antiviral for pregnant women who have HIV...bad idea.

You want to prevent the spread of the virus to the baby.

The use of AZT was rejected.
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Old 5th March 2005, 03:01 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Thing is, using garlic instead of an antiviral for pregnant women who have HIV...bad idea.

You want to prevent the spread of the virus to the baby.

The use of AZT was rejected.
I thought AZT wasn't to be used alone for AIDS.
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Old 5th March 2005, 03:19 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by skeptigirl
Well this us upsetting. I thought the only thing I didn't like about Maher's opinions was his apparent attitude all women are gold diggers. My first thought was as above, it must be some comment taken out of context. So I went to his website.

I haven't found Bill's official opinion so I'll wait for the transcripts but I did find this 12/04 forum thread re vaccines.
That's nothing. From last year, see this thread. You might notice a very smart "newbie" poster starting on page two, taking them apart.
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Old 5th March 2005, 03:38 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by jambo372
I thought AZT wasn't to be used alone for AIDS.
Ah sorry, please replace the "AZT" with the word "antivirals" in posting.
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Old 5th March 2005, 05:09 PM   #23
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I was bored, so I transcribed the section on healthcare. The panel is Janet Reno, Dave Foley (from News Radio and nowadays poker), and Dr. Bernadine Healy, ex head of the Red Cross or something similar.

ETA: All spelling errors, and some grammatical errors are obviously mine.

Quote:
Bill Maher: Why do we need so much healthcare if we weren't sick? And why are we sick? What is the main thing we do to ourselves? Eat.

Janet Reno: One of the main things we do to ourselves is we do not take care of our children when they come into this world by providing proper vaccinations, proper preventative medical care, proper strong supportive healthcare for infants and children in this country.

BM: I don't believe in vaccinaiton either. That's a... well, that's a... what? That's another theory that I think is flawed, that we go by the Louis Pasteur theory, even though Louis Pasteur renounced it on his own deathbed and said that Beauchamp(s) was right: it's not the invading germs, it's the terrain. It's not the mosquitoes, it's the swamp that they are breeding in.

JR: What are you going to do about smallpox? (something of the sort, crowd was clapping)

BM: What am I going to do about smallpox?

JR: Mmm huh.

BM: Not go to the chicken farm. But eh... no.

Dave Foley: Well po... You gotta say, the polio vaccine turned out well. You know...

Dr. Bernardine Healy: I think there... I mean I think it's great theatre to, when you're well, to say "Oh all those sick people, let's dismiss them." But you know, when you're sick there's nothing better than having a good medical establishment.

BM: But why do they get sick? You think it's normal that people need this ammount of drugs?

Dr.BH: Well I think that people get sick and we don't know entirely why they get sick, and the older, they get the sicker they get. Every 10 years that you add on to your life you have a higher chance of getting sick. And you get atherosclerosis, you get cancer... I mean the notion...

BM: Why...?

Dr.BH: ...that somehow when you get sick it's your fault...

BM: It's the...

Dr.BH:...it's the wrong attitude. It's not your fault. You don't have a guilt trip because you get sick. People get sick. You know, they say that all around the world people think that death is inevitable. In the United States of America we think it's an option.

BM (at the same time as the last sentence): You're in denial.

Dr.BH: I mean, death is not an option.

BM: You're in denial, about I think is a key fact, which is it is the at... people get sick because of an aggregate toxicity, because their body has so much poison in it, from the air, the water... Yes, much of it is not our fault and we can't control it. But a lot of it we can and even the food people think is good for them, is bad, and I'm not presenting myself as a paradigm. I do cruddy things to my body too and I enjoy them. But when I do them, I'm not in denial. I'm not eating fat free cheese and saying: "You know what, I'm healthy for eating this." I'm saying: "Oh yeah, this is chemical goop and this is killing me."

Dr.BH: Well, you know... right now I think you would be the greatest spokesman for anti-smoking. I mean, really, the most dangerous thing people do to themselves is smoke cigarrettes. It's toxic to their lungs, it causes all sorts of cancers. It causes lung disease, heart disease.

BM: But we know that. Noone's arguing that smoking...

Dr.BH: But then why are 25% of Americans still smoking?

Blah blah blah talk about smoking and tobacco companies and personal responsability and whatnot.
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Old 6th March 2005, 01:30 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by jambo372
I thought AZT wasn't to be used alone for AIDS.
Not as treatment but it is given, (currently a newer drug is being suggested), alone to mothers near term and then continued in the infants to prevent HIV.

The difference is not everyone with HIV has access to or for other reasons is on antiretroviral therapies. In populations with no access to antiretrovirals just using AZT for a specific but limited time prevented a large % of HIV in the newborn.
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Old 6th March 2005, 01:38 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Donks
I was bored, so I transcribed the section on healthcare. The panel is Janet Reno, Dave Foley (from News Radio and nowadays poker), and Dr. Bernadine Healy, ex head of the Red Cross or something similar.

ETA: All spelling errors, and some grammatical errors are obviously mine.
Well it's still painfully slow to link to Bill's forums so I'm not going to spend the time at the moment. This transcript says an awful lot about Bill's incredible ignorance in the physiology of diseases. You'd think these guys would have a clue about the germ theory but instead they have some magical belief all one has to do is live a perfectly healthy lifestyle and no infectious organism could touch them.

What an idiot.

The transcript also shows the responders' ignorance in countering Maher's remarks. I would have asked some very different questions.
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Old 6th March 2005, 05:06 PM   #26
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Originally posted by skeptigirl
The transcript also shows the responders' ignorance in countering Maher's remarks. I would have asked some very different questions.
I think they were too dumbstruck at the stupidity of Maher's remarks to have an immediate response. I know I was. Maher moved it on quickly to the "New Rules" segment, thus cutting off any more debate. It's his show, he gets to do that.
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Old 6th March 2005, 06:12 PM   #27
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That's another theory that I think is flawed, that we go by the Louis Pasteur theory, even though Louis Pasteur renounced it on his own deathbed and said that Beauchamp(s) was right: it's not the invading germs, it's the terrain. It's not the mosquitoes, it's the swamp that they are breeding in.
Oh my word.
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Old 6th March 2005, 06:45 PM   #28
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It's not the mosquitos? It's the swamp that makes them suck blood and spread malaria around?

Eh??

These people are warped and delusional.

You can be the most healthy person on the planet and you will still get cancer, you will still get the flu, and you can still die if you contract HIV.

You can see microbes under a microscope for gosh sakes. There are opportunistic microbes that are harmless under some conditions, but harmful under others.

Meh, don't matter, not like the idiots can see my post.
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Old 6th March 2005, 08:13 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by jambo372
Garlic might actually be useful for people with AIDS. It probably won't have any impact on the AIDS itself but may prevent certain types of secondary infection that AIDS victims are prone to get.
Yeah sure garlic can be helpful. It's also a lot more likely to be a cause of hemalytic anemia. Too, if I recalled, but never followed up on, was the implication that garlic could and did interfere with medications in the treatment of HIV and Aids.
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Old 6th March 2005, 08:16 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
It's not the mosquitos? It's the swamp that makes them suck blood and spread malaria around?

Eh??

These people are warped and delusional.

You can be the most healthy person on the planet and you will still get cancer, you will still get the flu, and you can still die if you contract HIV.

You can see microbes under a microscope for gosh sakes. There are opportunistic microbes that are harmless under some conditions, but harmful under others.

Meh, don't matter, not like the idiots can see my post.
I don't believe in flu, cancer, or vaccines. They're all just made up things from eating all that processed food. I'm going to live all natural; I won't even wash my vegetables, because the dirt is all natural and can only be good for me. And I won't cook my meat; lots of animals can eat their meat raw; it's what nature intended. And nature certainly didn't intend for people to have those dirty vaccines and cancer-causing processed foods shoved into their bodies.
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Old 6th March 2005, 09:47 PM   #31
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Bill Maher has a point, but he supported it badly.

In past shows, he has ranted about the hazards to health that are caused by vested corporate interests. Try to find a can of good-tasting soda pop that doesn't have high fructose corn syrup in it. Try to find a restaurant where the unhealthy entrees don't vastly outnumber the healthy ones. Try to find a grocery store where you can buy unprocessed, healthy foods at reasonable prices.

The same sort of problem exists with the pharmaceutical companies: vested interests cause those in the health care field to advance profit over patient welfare. The drug companies always push the patent medicines. They don't test medicines that can't turn a profit. They urge a pill for every problem.

To some degree, there is truth in this. Economic forces on their own can tend to perpetuate unhealthy behavior and use of unhealthy products, with inadequate fixes to the health problems.

But to say that the theory of vaccination is flawed seems to border upon idiocy. Vaccination has been repeatedly tested for over 200 years, and the evidence for efficacy is very good.

It is quite another thing, of course, to criticize vaccination programs or policies, some of which have been poorly thought out and poorly implemented. One can have some legitimate complaints about particular vaccination programs or policies. But it is foolish to say that vaccination as a whole is not a scientifically proven tool for protection against disease.
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Old 6th March 2005, 10:14 PM   #32
Chris Haynes
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brown
.... Try to find a grocery store where you can buy unprocessed, healthy foods at reasonable prices. ...
For those who know how to cook... that is very easy. Ten pounds of potatoes can be had for less than $3... quite a bit of produce can be had for less than under one dollar a pound.

If you look in the produce aisle you can find lots of healthy unprocessed food. Just with a couple pounds of ham (sorry, there is no way to have that without it being "processed") I have or will make three meals... first ham with mashed potatoes (boil peeled potatoes, mash them, add butter and milk... butter being "processed" from the cream that came when the cow was milked), then ham fried rice -- which included soy sauce made from "processed" fermented soy beans, and finally the rest will be made into scalloped potatoes with ham... using flour -- which is "processed" wheat berries.

Though I wonder what he means by "unprocessed"... I do not often see wheat, oat or rice in their unprocessed state. But I also do not think that Mr. Maher would be willing to remove the husks, or mill the grains to make bread... or make chocolate (see http://www.internationalskeptics.com...threadid=53232 )

I sincerely doubt that Mr. Mahar spends much time hanging out in the grocery store, much less the kitchen...

And... I know that he gets his "health" information from Libertarian type of sources (look up "Schlafly" and "vaccine" on www.ratbags.com/rsoles ). They are big on this kind of information... but some have been known to be educated ( http://www.internationalskeptics.com...threadid=45092

Anyway, I am comforted that he has not reproduced.
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Old 6th March 2005, 10:24 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hydrogen Cyanide
For those who know how to cook... that is very easy.
For those who cannot cook--like me--it is more of a challenge.

Seriously, my neighborhood grocery has aisle after aisle of processed food, and apart from a pretty decent produce section, very little healthy food. It is hard to find nuts without salt or cereal (like raisin bran) without added sugar. There is a very limited selection of low-calorie snacks, but an ample selection of high-calorie snacks.

There is actually an establishment close to the grocery store that tells people where to find the healthy food in the grocery store (and often advises them to go to other grocery stores to find things).
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Old 6th March 2005, 10:43 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
It's not the mosquitos? It's the swamp that makes them suck blood and spread malaria around?

Eh??

These people are warped and delusional.

You can be the most healthy person on the planet and you will still get cancer, you will still get the flu, and you can still die if you contract HIV.

You can see microbes under a microscope for gosh sakes. There are opportunistic microbes that are harmless under some conditions, but harmful under others.

Meh, don't matter, not like the idiots can see my post.
He means that if the conditions were never allowed to have arisen for mosquitoes to thrive in the first place, the problem would be solved. That makes sense, but he seems to be missing the point that vaccinations are part of setting up those conditions to prevent disease.
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Old 6th March 2005, 10:58 PM   #35
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What is wrong with processed food per se? For that matter, what _is_ processed food? I have a general idea but is there a specific definition? I'm hesitant to mark something down as being unhealthy simply because it's "processed." Whether a food is healthy depends on the content of the food.

I don't think you need to be a great cook to buy fairly healthy, not too expensive food that isn't hard to make. Plenty of food (fruits, vegetables, bread, etc) can either be eaten as is or after a few minutes in the microwave or on the stove.
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Old 6th March 2005, 10:59 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brown
For those who cannot cook--like me--it is more of a challenge.

...
Though you did completely MISS THE POINT...

Please tell where you get unprocessesed:

Flour
Rice
Soy Sauce
Oats
Butter
Milk

Oh, here is a good one: tapioca

... and if you find a place that still sells meat that is breathing, let me know!!! (and yes! I have had to deal with a recently deceased chicken, and NO, I do not want to talk about it!)

In the mean time: Learn to cook!

Here is a good place to start (note it is not the most recent edition):
Joy of Cooking
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Old 6th March 2005, 11:16 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brown
Bill Maher has a point, but he supported it badly.

In past shows, he has ranted about the hazards to health that are caused by vested corporate interests. Try to find a can of good-tasting soda pop that doesn't have high fructose corn syrup in it. Try to find a restaurant where the unhealthy entrees don't vastly outnumber the healthy ones. Try to find a grocery store where you can buy unprocessed, healthy foods at reasonable prices.

The same sort of problem exists with the pharmaceutical companies: vested interests cause those in the health care field to advance profit over patient welfare. The drug companies always push the patent medicines. They don't test medicines that can't turn a profit. They urge a pill for every problem.

To some degree, there is truth in this. Economic forces on their own can tend to perpetuate unhealthy behavior and use of unhealthy products, with inadequate fixes to the health problems.
Agreed, but he is promoting a false dilemma here. He is saying that either the corporate interests, bad diet etc etc cause illness or it is bacteria and viruses (that can be fought with vaccines). In reality it is both.
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Old 6th March 2005, 11:33 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hydrogen Cyanide
Though you did completely MISS THE POINT...
Um, don't think I did.

As for the items on your shopping list, I don't buy any of them. This is sometimes a source of amusement when my parents come to visit and decide to make a meal in my kitchen. They find I have in my home no flour, no sugar, no butter...! Also, no alcoholic beverages, no coffee, no eggs, no mayonaise, no spices, no ice cream, no bread, no soda pop, no mixes, no salad dressings....

As for learning to cook, that is a great idea, but ... I don't have the time, I don't have the equipment, I don't have the teacher. I know how to make some dishes rather well, but I ordinarily wouldn't ask anyone else to try to eat the things I make. Nor do I have the palate to appreciate the kinds of dishes shown on cooking shows. In the end, the effort required doesn't seem to be worth it.
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Old 7th March 2005, 12:34 AM   #39
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If I may, allow me to bring some perspective here.

Maher does not have a point, at least the way he is interpreting the BS that has come his way.

First let me address the Pasteur recanted on his deathbed nonsense. Look closely at the link Dr Adequate kindly hunted up for us. While you ponder how stupid the concept even is, that we should ignore someone's entire scientific contribution because he supposedly made some statement at the end of his life dismissing the contribution, take a look at this quote from the link.
Quote:
Pasteur described germs as non-changeable. We know today, from the use of Darkfield Microscopes that microorganisms are pleomorphic, that they can change and often do. A virus can become a bacterium which can mutate into a yeast or fungus. Modern medicine has yet to acknowledge this because it would turn the pharmaceutical interests on their backs like a helpless tortoise. Again, we follow the money.
I believe the correct response to this is, "Oh pleeease!"

Try also the link from the link about The Lost History of Medicine which supposedly supports this bizarre fantasy someone cooked up and others have dined on.


The second part of Maher's point is something to the effect that all corporations are evil, all drug companies are evil and so on. The truth is in there but Maher's version is too distorted to have much merit.

I am about as anti-corporation as one can be without leaving the material world. And, that's actually my point. We all enjoy the benefits along with the costs of the stuff those 'evil' corporations do. There is a balance.

Yes, corporations have disincentives to do the right thing because they are set up to be beholden to the bottom line. But corporations do not function in a vacuum. People as consumers and as influencers of government regulations act as modifiers to those corporate actions. We need to be diligent and I do think people are way too complacent, but we aren't exactly sheep here.

So there is crappy food out there, and there are pollutants in the water, and so on. But, we are also living longer than ever, we can cure many cancers, vaccines have eliminated many common causes of early childhood deaths and so on.

So Maher doesn't have a point and neither do other folks who seem to see everything in black and white.


Separate issue: As to the eating healthy, if you are in the US might I recommend a trip south of the border to re-assess how good we actually have it here.

If there is Alar on my apple I can deal with that. After all, it is a wonderful big red juicy apple and I can have one any time of the year. I don't eat at McDs, ever. And if I do eat at Jack in the Box, I only get something with an obvious chicken slice in it, nothing ground. I don't eat there often since I prefer to pay more for the meat they claim was raised without hormones and antibiotics.

So in other words, it's a trade off. I am not going to add harmful stress to my body by fearing all contact with every toxin known to man. Eat the best you can, then quit worrying about it. There will be extra cancers and I do not advocate never speaking up to keep our food and environment healthy, in fact, I hope everyone notices and speaks up. At the same time we need perspective. There is a lot of good in all that bad.
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Old 7th March 2005, 12:36 AM   #40
Skeptic Ginger
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brown
Um, don't think I did.

As for the items on your shopping list, I don't buy any of them. This is sometimes a source of amusement when my parents come to visit and decide to make a meal in my kitchen. They find I have in my home no flour, no sugar, no butter...! Also, no alcoholic beverages, no coffee, no eggs, no mayonaise, no spices, no ice cream, no bread, no soda pop, no mixes, no salad dressings....

As for learning to cook, that is a great idea, but ... I don't have the time, I don't have the equipment, I don't have the teacher. I know how to make some dishes rather well, but I ordinarily wouldn't ask anyone else to try to eat the things I make. Nor do I have the palate to appreciate the kinds of dishes shown on cooking shows. In the end, the effort required doesn't seem to be worth it.
Just out of curiosity, what do you eat?
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