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Tags genocide charges , Russia-Ukraine relations , Russia-Ukraine war

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Old 13th April 2022, 08:47 AM   #41
theprestige
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I'm saying that they literally qualify under the definition in Article II of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. The source there being the UN.

So it's not whether it fits some vernacular or hyperbole or metaphor or whatever use. I'm saying that it literally fits the definition in the actual law, which is really the only one that matters. Bob can handwave until he gets sore arms muscles, his redefinition doesn't override the actual legal definition.
And I'm saying let's note that, and move on to the actual news and import of what Russia is doing in Ukraine. There is absolutely no reason to keep going back and forth with the same arguments about the same definitions. If anyone wants to do that, they should take it to some other thread. Please. I'm begging you, Hans.
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Old 13th April 2022, 11:31 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And I'm saying let's note that, and move on to the actual news and import of what Russia is doing in Ukraine. There is absolutely no reason to keep going back and forth with the same arguments about the same definitions. If anyone wants to do that, they should take it to some other thread. Please. I'm begging you, Hans.
The mods moved the question here
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Old 13th April 2022, 11:37 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The mods moved the question here
I'm sure their hearts were in the right place, but the question sure isn't.
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Old 13th April 2022, 11:58 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
In the part you quoted, it said with intent to destroy. That means if you do it for some other reason....like trying to compel a government to surrender....it isn't genocide. It is just your normal war crime.
Evidence that Russia is doing it for some other goal and not genocide?
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Old 13th April 2022, 12:33 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Evidence that Russia is doing it for some other goal and not genocide?
As I was saying, it doesn't even matter. In fact the whole Bob sideshow was just a case of not knowing what intent means in law, and going off a fully irrelevant tangent based on just that: not knowing what it's about.

I could detail, but since theprestige asked so nicely...
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Old 13th April 2022, 12:57 PM   #46
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The Russian people are being treated like the way you grow mushrooms:
Kept in the dark and fed nothing but crap.
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Old 13th April 2022, 02:28 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Evidence that Russia is doing it for some other goal and not genocide?
Maybe it's felony genocide - unintentional genocide arising from the commission of another criminal act.
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Old 13th April 2022, 03:23 PM   #48
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Nope, it's literally just genocide, if it was clear that you ARE committing one of the acts defined as genocide in Article II.

There is no such notion as "felony genocide", nor is there, strictly speaking, an "unintentionally" degree of mens rea. Well, sorta. What you might call "unintentionally" in common vernacular gets split between
- recklessly, i.e., it might not have been intended to happen, but it should have been bloody obvious that it's possible if you go and do that. Or
- negligently, i.e., nobody had any idea it'll happen when they ordered, well, whatever they ordered there

But in this case (or really any case), once it has been pointed out that that's what's happening, it can't go below "knowingly". I might plead recklessness if my trolley car ran over a bunch of people (like in that philosophy problem) while I wasn't looking, but if it's been repeatedly pointed out and I still don't hit the brakes, that's pretty much by definition "knowingly". Which, as I was saying is enough to be tried and convicted for genocide.

Also note that in criminal law it's generally irrelevant if you had some political motivation or what, other than to infer what degree of culpability is supportable. If I break into a butcher's shop and thrash the place, it's rather irrelevant whether I'm a militant vegan activist or just a drunk idiot trying to impress other people. If I'm a known vegan activist, it may just support the idea that it probably was purposeful rather than a heat of the moment idiocy, but that's about it.


But basically the degrees of culpability go like this:

- strict liability: it doesn't matter if you even knew, as long as you did the deed, you're liable. Used in such cases as sex with minors. (And one could debate how just that is -- and many do -- but I'm just saying how that law works.)

- purpose (confusingly enough also called intentional): if I put a bomb in my luggage and check it in, specifically to murder my boss who's on that plane, it's intentional for the murder of said boss

- knowing: the death of the pilots, stewardesses and other passengers may not have been my intention per se, but it's hard to argue that I didn't KNOW they're going to die too. So for their deaths my degree of "mens rea" is 'only' "knowingly".

- reckless: the plane gets delayed because of a storm, my bomb goes off in the airport and kills a luggage handler. It should have been bloody obvious that it's a possibility, even if it wasn't supposed to go that way. (Also in the USA it would very likely get upgraded to "felony murder", since it's a death that was the result of a felony.)

- negligence: dunno, something where I probably should have taken better precautions, but it's plausible that it never crossed my mind that things could go that way. Note that this is generally treated as synonymous with "criminal negligence", but unlike the vernacular use, that doesn't actually mean criminally liable. Kinda like "legally drunk" doesn't mean it's actually legal.


Standard disclaimer: not actual legal advice. Consult with an actual lawyer if you intend to kidnap a bunch of Ukrainian children
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Old 13th April 2022, 04:08 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Yes, and it's consistent with Russian attempts to try to erase Ukrainian cultural identity
Which Putin and his supporters in and outside of Russia have been very open about.

"Ukraine is not a real country", "Ukraine is part of Russia", etc.
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Old 14th April 2022, 05:49 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Nope, it's literally just genocide, if it was clear that you ARE committing one of the acts defined as genocide in Article II.
Okay. I'm having difficulty finding examples where either the UN, or anyone with expertise, labeling something genocide that didn't have the goal of destroying the group.
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Old 14th April 2022, 06:58 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Okay. I'm having difficulty finding examples where either the UN, or anyone with expertise, labeling something genocide that didn't have the goal of destroying the group.
Groups that practice genocide should be destroyed because groups that practice genocide need to be destroyed.
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Old 14th April 2022, 07:22 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Okay. I'm having difficulty finding examples where either the UN, or anyone with expertise, labeling something genocide that didn't have the goal of destroying the group.
Well, since Putin likes to talk about Nazis, how about the actual Nazis' Generalplan Ost? The end goal was to provide food for Germany in the short term, and farmland for German settlers in the long term. See the whole Lebensraum thing. Exterminating the slavs was only means to that end.

Nürnberg doctors' trial? The goal was to get medical data.

If you think those aren't grouped under the genocide that was the holocaust... yeh, you might be very uninformed.
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Old 14th April 2022, 07:53 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, since Putin likes to talk about Nazis, how about the actual Nazis' Generalplan Ost? The end goal was to provide food for Germany in the short term, and farmland for German settlers in the long term. See the whole Lebensraum thing. Exterminating the slavs was only means to that end.

Nürnberg doctors' trial? The goal was to get medical data.

If you think those aren't grouped under the genocide that was the holocaust... yeh, you might be very uninformed.
I would say the goal of ost was explicitly genocide. I don't think people would look at that plan and say genocide was not a goal.

There is probably a non-genocide way to do that plan.

And while the operations of the camps for extermination was genocide, and doctors has roles in that, it is unclear if the specific item of medical testing would be genocide (rather than another, more specific, crime against humanity). ETA: And I'm assuming when you brought up testing, you were walking the finest of lines to not include testing that was explicitly about advancing a racial superiority agenda.

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Old 14th April 2022, 08:23 AM   #54
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Nope. More like it's irrelevant to the point. It's

A. still technically not the same as having genocide as a goal, and

B. didn't stop doctors from being tried for other stuff like hypothermia research, to try to save the lives of Luftwaffe pilots shot down in the north sea with that medical data.
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Old 14th April 2022, 08:45 AM   #55
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But fine, anyway. There are more recent and actually clearer examples. E.g., the genocide of Yazidis by ISIL. The stated goal and how the ISIL called it was a campaign of forced religious conversion. And sure enough, everyone had the choice to convert to Islam. And whoever refused was killed (the men) or forced into sexual slavery (the women.) But there's no reason to believe that the ISIL wouldn't have very much preferred that they convert.

Nevertheless, it's classified as a genocide by the UN.


But anyway, it's irrelevant anyway. It doesn't matter what you believe is meant by intent, it only matters what the law says. And I told you that in detail in message #48. Those degrees of "mens rea" are what the law calls intent. It's lawyer jargon, really. Arguing whether it qualifies under a common vernacular meaning of intent is as pointless as if I were to say that someone doesn't qualify as a "Java programmer" unless they programmed a coffee machine.

And your message #50 is just a case of argument from ignorance and red herring combined.
1. Your not knowing some cases doesn't really say much. I mean, I don't know species of south american insects, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
2. It still doesn't change what the law says. Even if there were no cases yet when a certain law has been applied, it still doesn't mean you can just redefine what it says.
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Old 14th April 2022, 08:50 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
But fine, anyway. There are more recent and actually clearer examples. E.g., the genocide of Yazidis by ISIL. The stated goal and how the ISIL called it was a campaign of forced religious conversion. And sure enough, everyone had the choice to convert to Islam. And whoever refused was killed (the men) or forced into sexual slavery (the women.) But there's no reason to believe that the ISIL wouldn't have very much preferred that they convert.

Nevertheless, it's classified as a genocide by the UN.
That would also clearly be genocidal in objective.

I don't think you have hit on an example yet where parties are not pursuing genocide for the sake of genocide.


Quote:
it only matters what the law says. And I told you that in detail in message #48. Those degrees of "mens rea" are what the law calls intent.
You are discussing intent in terms of US criminal law and other national legal systems. That isn't evidence that it qualifies for intent under the UN.

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Old 14th April 2022, 09:09 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You are discussing intent in terms of US criminal law and other national legal systems. That isn't evidence that it qualifies for intent under the UN.
I already told you what qualifies under the Rome statutes, which is what applies in the international criminal court in Hague. To repeat myself: if you knew it will happen in the course of whatever you ordered there, then it qualifies as genocide. There is no requirement for it to be the primary goal or anything.
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Old 14th April 2022, 09:39 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I already told you what qualifies under the Rome statutes, which is what applies in the international criminal court in Hague. To repeat myself: if you knew it will happen in the course of whatever you ordered there, then it qualifies as genocide. There is no requirement for it to be the primary goal or anything.
Intent is higher in genocide under the UN convention requiring specific intent.
from the UN

Quote:
The intent is the most difficult element to determine. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group. It is this special intent, or dolus specialis, that makes the crime of genocide so unique.
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Old 16th April 2022, 10:14 PM   #59
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I do hope President Zelenskyy was able to take some time away from resisting "de-nazification" to enjoy Passover with his family.
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Old 18th April 2022, 09:37 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I do hope President Zelenskyy was able to take some time away from resisting "de-nazification" to enjoy Passover with his family.
For what it’s worth, many of the same people who parrot Putin’s self-evidently absurd “de-Nazification” talking points are eager to compare Israel to the Nazis.
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Old 30th June 2022, 04:22 AM   #61
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https://tass.com/politics/1473195

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"An attempt to claim that Russian forces struck a shopping mall in Kremenchug on June 27 is the latest blatant provocation by the [Ukrainian President Vladimir] Zelensky regime. The Kiev regime has claimed there were some 1,000 civilians in the mall, etc. Unfortunately, all this fake news was disseminated," the Russian diplomat said at a news conference on Wednesday.


Devil's Advocate: "
It was Ukraine's fault for storing weapons near a shopping centre - using civilians as a human shield.

"


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"The Western countries could as well ask their regimes what’s the use of delivering and storing weapons and ammunition near a shopping center? It never occurred to either Western reporters, or Western NGOs and the `humanitarian activists’ who are so much concerned over the situation around Ukraine to ask this question," Zakharova remarked.
Devil's Advocate: "
That was defunct so presumably didn't have anyone in it.
"
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On Tuesday, Defense Ministry Spokesman Lieutenant-General Igor Konashenkov reported that the Russian Aerospace Forces delivered high-precision surgical strikes on hangars containing US-and EU-supplied weapons near a road machinery plant in Kremenchug. "The ensuing blast from the ammunition for the Western-supplied arms stored there sparked a fire at a defunct shopping mall located close to the plant," the general pointed out.
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Old 30th June 2022, 07:55 AM   #62
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Russian official sources claim now that the Russian withdrawal from Snake Island was "a goodwill gesture".

Also:
Russia has no problem with Finland and Sweden joining NATO
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(Translation: "Now that it is going to happen anyway, we'll pretend that we never objected to begin with.")

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Old 30th June 2022, 01:31 PM   #63
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Bellingcat's demolition of Russian claims about the attack on the shopping mall.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2022...-the-evidence/
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Old 5th July 2022, 01:43 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Bellingcat's demolition of Russian claims about the attack on the shopping mall.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2022...-the-evidence/
You've mentioned Bellingcat, expect a response from CE soon.
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Old 27th July 2022, 01:38 PM   #65
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Merged: Russian (genocidal) internal propaganda and goals about Ukraine

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You make it sound like the citizens of war-torn Ukraine are too stupid to understand the options available to them, and make an informed decision to keep fighting.

You also make it sound like you favor appeasing terrorists.

What's wrong with fighting to stay free, if you prefer that to being a slave?
Citizens of Ukraine actually don't need to fight to stay free, they can just give pro-Russian areas of Ukraine to Russia, which is the logical thing to do.

People sometimes do make mistakes (this is not unheard of), they are not always rational, especially in war and peace issues.

And Ukraine did make some serious mistakes in the past.

Zelensky has become the spoilt child of the West (a rather expensive one).

Last edited by Michel H; 27th July 2022 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 27th July 2022, 01:41 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Citizens of Ukraine actually don't need to fight to stay free, they can just give pro-Russian areas of Ukraine to Russia, which is the logical thing to do.

People sometimes do make mistakes (this is not unheard of), they are not always rational, especially in war and peace issues.

And Ukraine did make some serious mistakes in the past.
SO those areas of the Ukraine are Putin's last terrotorial demand in Europe?
SOrry, but it's clear that Putin is out to rebuild the Sovier Union.If he got those territories, within a year he would be attempting new aggresion in some form agains the Ukarine.
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Old 27th July 2022, 01:43 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Citizens of Ukraine actually don't need to fight to stay free, they can just give pro-Russian areas of Ukraine to Russia, which is the logical thing to do.

People sometimes do make mistakes (this is not unheard of), they are not always rational, especially in war and peace issues.

And Ukraine did make some serious mistakes in the past.
Nope,. If they do then Russia will salami slice and ethnically cleanse their way across the country.

But you are a fan of it happening in the 30s and 40s so it's no surprise that you are a fan of it now.
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Old 27th July 2022, 01:49 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
SO those areas of the Ukraine are Putin's last terrotorial demand in Europe?
SOrry, but it's clear that Putin is out to rebuild the Sovier Union.If he got those territories, within a year he would be attempting new aggresion in some form agains the Ukarine.
My impression is that Putin (with his collaborators, such as Lavrov) is actually more serious than that.

Ukraine is a very, very special case, with about 30% of its population speaking Russian.
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Old 27th July 2022, 01:52 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
My impression is that Putin (with his collaborators, such as Lavrov) is actually more serious than that.

Ukraine is a very, very special case, with about 30% of its population speaking Russian.
Speaking a language does not correlate with wanting to live under the rule of that country - ask people living in the US
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Old 27th July 2022, 01:57 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Speaking a language does not correlate with wanting to live under the rule of that country - ask people living in the US
As far as I know, the US doesn't have a significant separatist problem.

But Ukraine does. There are some people in Ukraine who really want to leave, and they don't necessarily take their orders from Moscow (this seems to be mostly a spontaneous phenomenon).

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QOPpUQKDbQ)

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Old 27th July 2022, 01:58 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
My impression is that Putin (with his collaborators, such as Lavrov) is actually more serious than that.

Ukraine is a very, very special case, with about 30% of its population speaking Russian.
The United States is a very, very, very special case, with about 80% of its population speaking English. Tell us more about England's entitlement to annex some of our territory by force.
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Old 27th July 2022, 02:02 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
SO those areas of the Ukraine are Putin's last terrotorial demand in Europe?
SOrry, but it's clear that Putin is out to rebuild the Sovier Union Russian Empire. If he got those territories, within a year he would be attempting new aggresion in some form agains the Ukarine.

FTFY
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Old 27th July 2022, 02:12 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Speaking a language does not correlate with wanting to live under the rule of that country - ask people living in the US
As soon as we run out of trees we're going to "liberate" our English speaking neighbors in Canada. But it's a secret, so don't mention anything to them.
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Old 27th July 2022, 02:31 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
As soon as we run out of trees we're going to "liberate" our English speaking neighbors in Canada. But it's a secret, so don't mention anything to them.

Because everyone knows that all Canadians really want to be Americans; they've just forgotten because of British propaganda.
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Old 27th July 2022, 02:44 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
Because everyone knows that all Canadians really want to be Americans; they've just forgotten because of British propaganda.
We even have our own extremists and regional separatists!

I'll see your two MAGAs and raise you one Truck Convoy!
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Old 27th July 2022, 02:50 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
My impression is that Putin (with his collaborators, such as Lavrov) is actually more serious than that.

Ukraine is a very, very special case, with about 30% of its population speaking Russian.
Most Russian speaking Ukrainians want nothing to do with being part of Russia.
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Old 27th July 2022, 02:57 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
Because everyone knows that all Canadians really want to be Americans; they've just forgotten because of British propaganda. : rolleyes :
Why do you think they're all massed along the American border?
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Old 27th July 2022, 03:18 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Most Russian speaking Ukrainians want nothing to do with being part of Russia.

Zelenskyy is a native Russian speaker.
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Old 27th July 2022, 03:23 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
And China could decide to attack Taiwan, to weaken the US and help Russia. The US population is already not very happy about high inflation.
Yes, they could've attacked Taiwan many many times before, this is nothing new. What is new is China may look at the response by the West on Russia's little special military operation and make the totally rational decision that a war against Taiwan will cost them far more than it will gain them.
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Old 27th July 2022, 03:24 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Speaking a language does not correlate with wanting to live under the rule of that country - ask people living in the US
I mean if we go back to Trump... I'd totally swear allegiance to HRH QE2.. dunno about her son though. Grandson seems OK.
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