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Old 27th May 2022, 08:59 AM   #121
lobosrul5
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
It's populism. The core elements are labor/economic justice, anti-elitism, and nativism. In descending order.

It is just wild how badly the Dems have botched the first two. I left this area back when it was still solidly progressive and returned during the dawn of Trump. It's just jarring. Like some weird zombie utopia where people who were once turning over delivery trucks during strikes are now mad that rich people have to pay taxes.

Lost tribe tho...
Convincing the working class that they are somehow better off without unions, worker protections, and low taxes for the wealthy has been perhaps the greatest propaganda victory of all time. The dems should study and learn just how the right managed to do it.
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Old 27th May 2022, 09:33 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Convincing the working class that they are somehow better off without unions, worker protections, and low taxes for the wealthy has been perhaps the greatest propaganda victory of all time. The dems should study and learn just how the right managed to do it.
That's not difficult. You tell them you'll make things better. Blow a little smoke up their ass. Politicians are supposed to lie, so if you're not selling sunshine and rainbows things must be really dire. Then, in office, you do make things at least a tiny bit better, at least in some fashion, at least for a little while. Like tax cuts that were nominal and temporary and more than offset by the degradation of social services and infrastructure but still convinced people you actually did a thing. Both telling and showing are important. Neither have had any attention from Democrats taking the region for granted as a blue stronghold for decades prior.

Consider 2016 -
  • Hillary had a sensible plan that factored in the looming death of the coal industry and retooling those areas toward service-oriented economies. Her message was your home town is crap, and getting crappier, and best case scenario is you won't even recognize it anymore by the time it gets turned around.
  • Trump promised to wave his dick around and magic all those jobs back and coal would be immensely important again like it was when your pappy and grandpappy worked the mines before they died of black lung like real damn Americans ought to do.

Clearly Hillary was more practical and truthful. They weren't fooled, they know their towns are crap. They know coal is dying, if it doesn't kill them first. But Trump still won those areas by a landslide.

Or if you don't believe me, how about 2008-era Obama?

Quote:
"But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there's not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. So it's not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

Um, now these are in some communities, you know. I think what you'll find is, is that people of every background -- there are gonna be a mix of people, you can go in the toughest neighborhoods, you know working-class lunch-pail folks, you'll find Obama enthusiasts. And you can go into places where you think I'd be very strong and people will just be skeptical. The important thing is that you show up and you're doing what you're doing." -- Sen. Barack Obama (April 2008)

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Old 27th May 2022, 09:39 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
As generally true as this is we can't discount that for many of these Democrats the dissembled version is actually their political position. They are so wrapped up in the idea that compromise is wisdom that they've developed a moral compass that defines itself by what they think sounds reasonable to other people.

They've managed to turn compromise into a sort of fundamentalist cult when it is supposed to be a necessary evil to function in an ideologically diverse society.
Compromise is only a necessary evil when your side is always right about everything and the other side is always wrong. A fallacy common to partisans of both stripes.
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Old 27th May 2022, 09:42 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Compromise is only a necessary evil when your side is always right about everything and the other side is always wrong.
You see this kind of snide little snarky retort only works when one side isn't actually always wrong.

As it stands you're just another sad conservative going "Why can't I believe the Earth is flat, vaccines don't work, global warming isn't real, that Trump won the election, and there's a pizza parlor sex dungeon in DC without such fuss?"
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Old 27th May 2022, 10:04 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
If you want to talk about political messaging, what kind of message do you think it sends that you let the political messaging dictate what you claim to believe in?
Are you claiming you believe a pregnant woman should be able to order a near term viable infant be killed? And you think doctors should carry that wish out?

Sounds to me like you want to amplify this false message.
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Old 27th May 2022, 10:07 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Are you claiming you believe a pregnant woman should be able to order a near term viable infant be killed? And you think doctors should carry that wish out?
Yes. More accurately, I believe it's none of my damn business, nor anyone else's but the woman and her doctor.
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Old 27th May 2022, 10:08 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
She's sort of proving my point that Democrats tend to dissemble about their real positions in the hopes of getting elected. And I do find it amusing that she thinks I'm doing it in an effort to rally all the single-issue anti-abortion zealots around this ghost forum. Lots and lots of them, I feel certain.
Well she thinks your conclusions about her are false.

As for believing forums including this one are dead-end sources of amplified messaging you would also be wrong.
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Old 27th May 2022, 10:17 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Yes. More accurately, I believe it's none of my damn business, nor anyone else's but the woman and her doctor.
That's a tad different from asserting that includes murdering full term viable infants because such a decision is never made and if it were, it would never be carried out.

Why not leave that false assertion out, especially now that you know it is not a decision said woman and her doctor would ever make?

You are letting your pedantry echo a false message used by the GOP to make the pro-choice position look untenable.
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Old 27th May 2022, 10:18 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Yes. More accurately, I believe it's none of my damn business, nor anyone else's but the woman and her doctor.
Unless I'm very much mistaken there isn't really such a thing as a third trimester abortion. At that point a pregnant woman could ask for labor to be induced and then the baby could be A) murdered, or B) the state takes the child no questions asked and the mother never sees it again. I mean if you think option A isn't grotesque then I guess that's your opinion.
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Old 27th May 2022, 10:19 AM   #130
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- Yes a woman should be able to terminated a pregnancy at any point until the child is completely outside her body.

- This scenario practically never happens.

This is not a paradox. I'm not going to lie because you're afraid of the specter of the Right bringing up the image of "Scawwwy Late Term Pregnancy."

We don't have to talk around topics because dishonest agents exist.
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Old 27th May 2022, 10:28 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That's a tad different from asserting that includes murdering full term viable infants because such a decision is never made and if it were, it would never be carried out.

Why not leave that false assertion out, especially now that you know it is not a decision said woman and her doctor would ever make?

You are letting your pedantry echo a false message used by the GOP to make the pro-choice position look untenable.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. You asked if I found it acceptable and I said "yes," did I not?

Let's say, instead of fetuses, that the GOP was really, really, really pro-cancer. Ooooh they just hate cancer treatments. Chemo, radiation, the lot. God put that tumor in you, He has a plan for it. At what point would you agree to make cancer therapies illegal for the sake of political messaging? The niche, experimental treatments that people almost never need? Would that be an acceptable sacrifice to you to avoid amplifying their false messaging?

Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Unless I'm very much mistaken there isn't really such a thing as a third trimester abortion. At that point a pregnant woman could ask for labor to be induced and then the baby could be A) murdered, or B) the state takes the child no questions asked and the mother never sees it again. I mean if you think option A isn't grotesque then I guess that's your opinion.
If it never happens then why make it illegal? Why pass a law with no practical purpose other than to be abused?

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Old 27th May 2022, 10:55 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
I'm not sure what you're saying here. You asked if I found it acceptable and I said "yes," did I not?

Let's say, instead of fetuses, that the GOP was really, really, really pro-cancer. Ooooh they just hate cancer treatments. Chemo, radiation, the lot. God put that tumor in you, He has a plan for it. At what point would you agree to make cancer therapies illegal for the sake of political messaging? The niche, experimental treatments that people almost never need? Would that be an acceptable sacrifice to you to avoid amplifying their false messaging?


If it never happens then why make it illegal? Why pass a law with no practical purpose other than to be abused?
I didn't say it never happens, its that the term late term abortion is a bit of a misnomer, the fetus has to removed somehow whether alive or dead. How about a law that says: abortions for any reason through the 2nd trimester are always OK. In the 3rd trimester labor can be induced at any time the woman wishes even if that reduces life expectancy for the fetus/baby and the state cares for the baby. It would be so rare that the cost increase to the state would be negligible .Not sure how that would be abused, although give the GoP a way and they'll find it, I'll grant you that.

That would, btw, be a more liberal abortion law than any European countries, yes even the Nordic countries.
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Old 27th May 2022, 10:56 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
If it never happens then why make it illegal? Why pass a law with no practical purpose other than to be abused?
Because the Right lost the courtesy of even being given an inch on this battle a long, long, long, long time ago.
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Old 27th May 2022, 11:05 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I didn't say it never happens, its that the term late term abortion is a bit of a misnomer, the fetus has to removed somehow whether alive or dead. How about a law that says: abortions for any reason through the 2nd trimester are always OK. In the 3rd trimester labor can be induced at any time the woman wishes even if that reduces life expectancy for the fetus/baby and the state cares for the baby. It would be so rare that the cost increase to the state would be negligible .Not sure how that would be abused, although give the GoP a way and they'll find it, I'll grant you that.

That would, btw, be a more liberal abortion law than any European countries, yes even the Nordic countries.
How about it's still none of our business? If a woman's bodily autonomy is of primary importance, as I think we'd agree, I don't see how we can start going around making exceptions without opening the door to other people who want to make other exceptions, like whether there is a fetus in there at all.

If you're talking horse trading in seeking a practical piece of legislation, I already mentioned upthread I'd have settled for protecting abortion at all, which we lack altogether because Joe ******* Manchin voted it down, but that's still somehow everyone else's fault for "amplifying" the GOP message.
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Old 27th May 2022, 11:21 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
How about it's still none of our business? If a woman's bodily autonomy is of primary importance, as I think we'd agree, I don't see how we can start going around making exceptions without opening the door to other people who want to make other exceptions, like whether there is a fetus in there at all.

If you're talking horse trading in seeking a practical piece of legislation, I already mentioned upthread I'd have settled for protecting abortion at all, which we lack altogether because Joe ******* Manchin voted it down, but that's still somehow everyone else's fault for "amplifying" the GOP message.
How far do we take bodily autonomy as a right? If I went into the hospital and asked them to cut off my arm, because its my body and I want it gone, they'd never do it and would likely refer me to a shrink. If not outright illegal, any doctor performing it would lose his license to practice medicine.

I was, in my youth, moderately pro-life. Rape, and health risks to the mother being exceptions. What changed my mind is becoming aware that being pregnant is always a health risk to the mother, its not a minor inconvenience. And I 100% get someone deciding hey wait a minute I don't want to carry this thing inside me for 9 months even if I have the option of adoption. But, if inducing labor has no material difference to the health of the mother rather than killing the fetus (with drugs, how is it done?) then delivering it.... well thats rather different.

ETA: and none of this is really practically relevant anyways. A bill passing the Senate that would be the worlds most liberal abortion law as I posited has as much chance as a totally unrestricted abortion bill: 0.

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Old 27th May 2022, 11:29 AM   #136
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I'd say it's not different at all. But yes, there's lots of sensitive, murky issues to work out. That doesn't need to happen at the legislative level. We're not the woman or her doctor, it's not our business. It's her body. Not ours. Not the fetus's.

Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
ETA: and none of this is really practically relevant anyways. A bill passing the Senate that would be the worlds most liberal abortion law as I posited has as much chance as a totally unrestricted abortion bill: 0.
Because of Joe Manchin, moderate democrat. As this is an election thread I feel it's important to keep pointing out exactly why we can't have nice things.

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Old 27th May 2022, 11:31 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
How far do we take bodily autonomy as a right? .
Well right now we can take it to "A woman gets to terminate her pregnancy whenever she feels like it" and deal with your slippery slope to people turning themselves into Cenobites later.
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Old 27th May 2022, 11:42 AM   #138
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To be clear, my point is about how this issue is marketed by the GOP to win elections.

Time:Trump Made False Claims About 'Late-Term Abortion.' Here Are the Facts
Quote:
Enacted in January, the New York law allows a woman to get an abortion after 24 weeks of pregnancy if her health or life is threatened or if the fetus would be unable to survive outside the womb. Under previous state law, a woman could only get an abortion after 24 weeks if her life was at risk.

Anti-abortion advocates have condemned the law as an “extreme” expansion of abortion rights. On Monday, Trump echoed critics who have falsely claimed that the bill would allow a woman going into labor to have an abortion.

“Democrats are also pushing extreme late-term abortion, allowing children to be ripped from their mother’s womb right up until the moment of birth,” Trump said in his speech Monday night.

But medical experts say that’s not accurate. Dr. Kristyn Brandi, an obstetrician-gynecologist and a board member from Physicians for Reproductive Health, told TIME last week that arguments about women getting abortions while in labor are a “gross mischaracterization” of abortion care.

“It’s not something that any person would come seeking, and it’s not something that any doctor would provide,” she said.

NPR: GOP playbook on abortion is to push Democrats on restrictions and contort their words
Quote:
Here's the RNC's framing:

REPORTER: "Does [Biden] support any limits on abortion?"

PSAKI: No

REPORTER: "Does the president support abortion until the moment of birth?"

PSAKI: Yes

No. Clearly, that's not what was said.
Axios: Scoop: Senate Republicans share abortion talking points
Quote:
The memo is its attempt to have its members speak to voters with a unified voice.

"EXPOSE THE DEMOCRATS FOR THE EXTREME VIEWS THEY HOLD Joe Biden and the Democrats have extreme and radical views on abortion that are outside of the mainstream of most Americans.
They support late term abortions.
• They demand that taxpayers pay for abortions.
They want abortions to be on demand and oppose any and all reasonable restrictions, such as prohibiting abortion for gender selection reasons, or even limiting abortion to the first trimester.
• In fact, they have opposed every single restriction on abortion for nearly 50 years. Restrictions on late term abortions, gender selection abortions, medical safety regulations for abortion clinics – all are strongly opposed by the radical left.

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Old 27th May 2022, 11:46 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well right now we can take it to "A woman gets to terminate her pregnancy whenever she feels like it" and deal with your slippery slope to people turning themselves into Cenobites later.
Ding ding ding we have a winner!!! I agree 100%. Remove the fetus and her pregnancy is terminated. Whether its alive or dead has no bearing on her being pregnant.

ETA: sometimes I wonder if I've really become a far left progressive liberal or I'm still middle of the road and the GoP has moved to crazy extremes. This thread reminds me I'm the latter.

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Old 27th May 2022, 12:04 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Convincing the working class that they are somehow better off without unions, worker protections, and low taxes for the wealthy has been perhaps the greatest propaganda victory of all time. The dems should study and learn just how the right managed to do it.

There's a popular myth that it's impossible for things to become as bad as they were in the past. It gets applied in a number of areas.
The FDA used to be necessary, but we don't need it anymore. Our food is safe now.
Unions used to be necessary, but we don't need them anymore. Working conditions are a lot better now.
The EPA used to be necessary, but we don't need it anymore. Our air and water are clean now.
And so on, and so on.
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Old 27th May 2022, 12:05 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
ETA: sometimes I wonder if I've really become a far left progressive liberal or I'm still middle of the road and the GoP has moved to crazy extremes. This thread reminds me I'm the latter.
The former will come (plus extremist militant socialism!) when you start looking at policies that actually work when implemented in the real world, versus wishful thinking about trickle-down.
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Old 27th May 2022, 12:07 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
The former will come (plus extremist militant socialism!) when you start looking at policies that actually work when implemented in the real world, versus wishful thinking about trickle-down.
Lol trickle-down is a crock of ****, theres so much data proving it never worked its almost comical that anyone still believes it. I don't know what that has to do with thinking fetuses should be delivered alive if viable rather than dead though.
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Old 27th May 2022, 12:21 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Lol trickle-down is a crock of ****, theres so much data proving it never worked its almost comical that anyone still believes it. I don't know what that has to do with thinking fetuses should be delivered alive if viable rather than dead though.
Well then welcome to the far left. Most of the rest just boils down to empathy. Here's your rainbow flag pin and Portland beard.
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Old 27th May 2022, 12:24 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Ding ding ding we have a winner!!! I agree 100%. Remove the fetus and her pregnancy is terminated. Whether its alive or dead has no bearing on her being pregnant.

ETA: sometimes I wonder if I've really become a far left progressive liberal or I'm still middle of the road and the GoP has moved to crazy extremes. This thread reminds me I'm the latter.
Ah so you're talking making women do forced births.

No.
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Old 27th May 2022, 12:33 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Ah so you're talking making women do forced births.

No.
I'm so ******* confused right now, honestly. A woman who is 7 months pregnant decides she doesn't want to be anymore. I agree she should have that right. Abortions aren't magic, the matter within her uterus must be removed. What difference does it make to her if its delivered alive or dead? I've actually now looked this up... yes after a certain point labor has to be induced. If you just kill the fetus and leave it there it will also kill the mother.
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Old 27th May 2022, 12:35 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I'm so ******* confused right now, honestly. A woman who is 7 months pregnant decides she doesn't want to be anymore. I agree she should have that right. Abortions aren't magic, the matter within her uterus must be removed. What difference does it make to her if its delivered alive or dead? I've actually now looked this up... yes after a certain point labor has to be induced. If you just kill the fetus and leave it there it will also kill the mother.
If you need the difference between an abortion and a forced birth explained to you and a curt "What does it matter if its dead or alive" is the best you can come up with I have no hope of getting out of this conversation civilly.

Who's going to take care of this "Doesn't matter" child? You? I doubt it.
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Old 27th May 2022, 12:51 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Jen Psaki is even better at playing dodgeball than you are. You say that no doctor would perform an abortion on woman giving birth; how about 2 weeks from birth? How about a month from birth, two months from birth? Where is the line?

The fact is that Democrats don't want to draw a line, because they know that any line is going to be unpopular with their base, which basically wants no restrictions. As I said, they haven't thought things out carefully and compromise is as evil to them as it was to Ayn Rand.
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Last edited by Brainster; 27th May 2022 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 27th May 2022, 01:00 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If you need the difference between an abortion and a forced birth explained to you and a curt "What does it matter if its dead or alive" is the best you can come up with I have no hope of getting out of this conversation civilly.

Who's going to take care of this "Doesn't matter" child? You? I doubt it.
Late term abortions are termed induction abortions. Labor is induced. The mother has to go through labor whether the fetus is alive or dead. Your trying to convince me of what exactly? That delivering a dead fetus is less traumatizing than delivering a live one and giving it up? I'm not being rhetorical, I genuinely don't understand your point of view.

As has been mooted, late-term abortions for reasons other than severe birth defects or medical emergencies are rare. And as I've already said the state then takes the baby. So, yes I'm fine with my taxes being raised a tiny bit for the handful of times this situation would come up within my state.
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Old 27th May 2022, 06:36 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Jen Psaki is even better at playing dodgeball than you are. You say that no doctor would perform an abortion on woman giving birth; how about 2 weeks from birth? How about a month from birth, two months from birth? Where is the line?

The fact is that Democrats don't want to draw a line, because they know that any line is going to be unpopular with their base, which basically wants no restrictions. As I said, they haven't thought things out carefully and compromise is as evil to them as it was to Ayn Rand.
Cherry picking or straw man, take your pick.

First, bull ****, Democrats are fine with lines drawn, did you not read the links to all the public opinion polls? They are called "with restrictions" in the polls.

Second, bull ****, choosing to deliver a viable late-term infant is not called an abortion. It is called choosing to end the pregnancy early because either the mother and/or the infant are in physical trouble. Even when the infant is not viable it might be decided to end the pregnancy early. That might be a decision a pregnant woman along with her doctor should be able to make.

Stop distorting peoples' POVs to suit your straw man arguments. Only stupid people reading this thread would believe you weren't posting straw men.
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Old 28th May 2022, 06:47 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Convincing the working class that they are somehow better off without unions, worker protections, and low taxes for the wealthy has been perhaps the greatest propaganda victory of all time. The dems should study and learn just how the right managed to do it.
And nobody likes taxes, so it's not hard to convince the working class to buy into the big tax cuts. The unscrupulousness of Fox News and other rightwing media is something you hardly see on the big liberal channels like CNN and MSNBC. MSNBC tried to do the Fox model the past couple years, but imo not as effectively and the damage had already been done long before.
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Old 28th May 2022, 07:29 AM   #151
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I have said in the past that on a purely political level it's weird.

It's not that the concept of a union strikes me as more Right leaning than Left leaning, just that if I were to rattle off the jobs that jump in my head when I think "Union Job" it's all blue-collar stuff. When I think steel workers and auto workers and police I don't think "Liberal."
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Old 28th May 2022, 09:39 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I have said in the past that on a purely political level it's weird.

It's not that the concept of a union strikes me as more Right leaning than Left leaning, just that if I were to rattle off the jobs that jump in my head when I think "Union Job" it's all blue-collar stuff. When I think steel workers and auto workers and police I don't think "Liberal."
Absolutely right.

When I worked for a large company and started moving up the management chain, we had a training session on unions. Basically, the message was if you get a union in your plant you deserve it. You aren't treating your people right.

I thought that was pretty progressive at the time.
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Old 28th May 2022, 05:15 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
What someone claims to support doesn't make it real.

What you are saying is you had a very ignorant friend who spouted a very ignorant belief.
One of our members here stated once that "abortions" should be allowed after birth. I tried to Google the quote. I remember it clearly but I won't say the name of the poster on the very off-chance he was being sarcastic.

Anyways, can't say many sane people agree with him, except maybe school teachers.
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Old 28th May 2022, 06:11 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
One of our members here stated once that "abortions" should be allowed after birth. I tried to Google the quote. I remember it clearly but I won't say the name of the poster on the very off-chance he was being sarcastic.

Anyways, can't say many sane people agree with him, except maybe school teachers.
Isn't that an extension/modification of "A Modest Proposal"?
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Old 28th May 2022, 07:19 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
One of our members here stated once that "abortions" should be allowed after birth. I tried to Google the quote. I remember it clearly but I won't say the name of the poster on the very off-chance he was being sarcastic.

Anyways, can't say many sane people agree with him, except maybe school teachers.
I think I'm the only one who makes those arguments in this forum. If you're referring to me, it's entirely rhetorical. What sets it off is usually someone who starts in with an Overton Window-based argument of "well, you want to keep your reasonable abortion rights that are already the products of decades of compromise and I want no abortions at all under any circumstances, therefore let's compromise again on impractically limited abortions," followed by people engaging them in a spirit of bipartisanship instead of telling them to **** off with that.

The thing about the Overton Window is it's dominated by the extremes. That means you need an actual extreme. If you want a sane compromise at the end, you have to start from a position that's as insane as the guy tugging on the other sill and ask for compromise on that.
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Old 28th May 2022, 07:24 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
The thing about the Overton Window is it's dominated by the extremes. That means you need an actual extreme. If you want a sane compromise at the end, you have to start from a position that's as insane as the guy tugging on the other sill and ask for compromise on that.
The Right and the Post-Fact world broke that concept by putting "Insane scenarios that never happen that I'm making up" on the table and demanding they being judged against "Actual real things that actually happening in reality for real actually" and somehow THAT WORKING.

That's why we have to weigh "Liberals are busing in fleets of illegal brown people to steal illegals" against "Conservatives are openly committing voter suppression" despite only one of those things actually happening.
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Old 28th May 2022, 07:30 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The Right and the Post-Fact world broke that concept by putting "Insane scenarios that never happen that I'm making up" on the table and demanding they being judged against "Actual real things that actually happening in reality for real actually" and somehow THAT WORKING.

That's why we have to weigh "Liberals are busing in fleets of illegal brown people to steal illegals" against "Conservatives are openly committing voter suppression" despite only one of those things actually happening.
They didn't break the concept, they weaponized it. Democrats have decades of habitual compromise under their belts, they do it on autopilot, and the GOP just keeps pulling further and further back each time.

Edit found on Fark, but damn if it ain't accurate
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Old 31st May 2022, 04:52 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I have said in the past that on a purely political level it's weird.

It's not that the concept of a union strikes me as more Right leaning than Left leaning, just that if I were to rattle off the jobs that jump in my head when I think "Union Job" it's all blue-collar stuff. When I think steel workers and auto workers and police I don't think "Liberal."
This is the product of the neoliberal shift best exemplified by the Clinton era, where Democrats abandoned unionism and the working class as part of their coalition and instead targeted swing voters that might otherwise vote Republican.

There was absolutely a time in this country where blue collar workers, including all the macho or otherwise chauvinistic culture, were reliable Democratic voters. The party has since abandoned the modest appeals to working class interests that made this coalition work, but it's worth pointing out that there's nothing inherent about the "blue collar" worker that makes them locked-in conservatives.

None of this changes on a fast schedule, and even in recent history many rust belt states were seen as safe blue states as a vestige of this tradition. It took a long time to lose these voters, and I suspect it would take a long time to get them back. Realistically, with so much of our manufacturing sector gutted and shipped overseas, it may be better political calculus to focus on other industries rather than fetishizing the small rump of blue collar workers still around in this country.

Service workers seems an extremely fertile field if Democrats have any interest in unionism and working class politics.

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Old 31st May 2022, 10:10 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Compromise is only a necessary evil when your side is always right about everything and the other side is always wrong. A fallacy common to partisans of both stripes.
I believe in my own positions because I think they are right.

"He compromises his sense of right and wrong" is not a compliment. It is, however, a necessary evil to get along in the real world.

The people who omit "necessary" from "necessary evil" are the problem.
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Old 31st May 2022, 10:24 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I have said in the past that on a purely political level it's weird.

It's not that the concept of a union strikes me as more Right leaning than Left leaning, just that if I were to rattle off the jobs that jump in my head when I think "Union Job" it's all blue-collar stuff. When I think steel workers and auto workers and police I don't think "Liberal."
That it is weird to people is hard for me to grasp. I spent my formative years among these people. The idea of steel workers honestly debating voting for Mondale/Hart/Jackson in the 1984 primary must seem weird today but it was a common topic that year among the adults in my father's circles. Republicans were the lawyers and managers who didn't exactly hang out in the parking lot after softball games.


My county went 60-40 for Mondale over Reagan. It went 70-30 for Trump.
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