IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags abortion

Reply
Old 28th June 2022, 02:17 AM   #201
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 25,936
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
To be fair, it is hard to take Toobin seriously, and especially the matter of whether he has respect for others. I disregard his opinion on Scalia.
Of course you do.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2022, 02:19 AM   #202
shuttlt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 9,479
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I think was Jeffrey Toobin, an American lawyer, author, political commentator and legal analyst for CNN!
I'm sure there is another occupation that he is even more widely known for....
shuttlt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2022, 03:15 AM   #203
Warp12
Suspended
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 5,941
..

Last edited by Warp12; 28th June 2022 at 03:54 AM. Reason: Can of worms.
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2022, 03:15 AM   #204
Susheel
Master Poster
 
Susheel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hyderabad, India
Posts: 2,750
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Roving gangs of feminists, gunning down Republican legislators....
Do they also wear tight leather and chains in your mind?
__________________
I've got to get to a library...fast Robert Langdon
Susheel is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2022, 05:22 AM   #205
arayder
Master Poster
 
arayder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,474
To me "originalism" and the intent of the Framers is useful when we want to understand what the words and phrases of the Constitution mean and were intended to mean. That's why so many scholars pour over original sources like the notes of the constitutional convention and the Federalist Papers.

But what Jefferson said 30 years later while he was playing oracle back at Monticello was just his opinion.

What the nay sayer, Patrick Henry thought is just what he thought.

When you get down to the nub of it the document is so remarkably ambiguous that those looking for a definitive road map for 21st century democracy will be disappointed.

The "new originalists" have ignored the intended ambiguity of the document and have pretended that "abortion" since not specifically mentioned in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights is not a protected privacy right.

This argument is an insult to the our intelligence. The justices who so argue citing the Framers original intent disingenuously ignore the 9th amendment which reserves, to the people, rights which are not enumerated in the Constitution or the other Bills of Rights.

This twisted, insincere argument hints that the justices think we are too stupid to understand Constitutional law and can't recognize that they have cherry picked an argument.

The right to privacy isn't just an idea. When it comes down it no state would dare invade our lives so as to tell us we can't turn down that last hopeless round of chemo and radiation. . .or tell us it isn't time to honor pawpaw's living will and turn of life support. . .or tell us that we just have to let go of our suffering cancer riddled preschooler.
arayder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2022, 07:38 AM   #206
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 9,169
Originally Posted by arayder View Post
The justices who so argue citing the Framers original intent disingenuously ignore the 9th amendment which reserves, to the people, rights which are not enumerated in the Constitution or the other Bills of Rights.
They could easily argue that the 10th Amendment reserves the power to regulate abortion (among other powers "not delegated to the United States by the Constitution") to the States.
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2022, 07:55 AM   #207
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 92,445
Originally Posted by arayder View Post
To me "originalism" ...
Originalism is what Scalia used when it suited him. He ignored it when it didn't.

Alito is using it the same way.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2022, 07:59 AM   #208
shuttlt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 9,479
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Originalism is what Scalia used when it suited him. He ignored it when it didn't.

Alito is using it the same way.
This is the dirty secret of the Constitution. It doesn't really mean much of anything. It's just a mechanism for lending reflected legitimacy to the cultural assumptions of whoever dominates the SC. It's the modern equivalent of the priests interpreting the will of the Gods. The moment significant numbers of people realise that, the Emperor is going to need a new set of clothes.

Last edited by shuttlt; 28th June 2022 at 08:01 AM.
shuttlt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2022, 08:01 AM   #209
shemp
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
 
shemp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Out back preparing the bunker for the next Civil War
Posts: 49,400
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
What votes? Election polls are snapshots in time. Candidates can gain or lose support in days. But polls about political and social beliefs tend to be reliable and consistent. Someone who supported Roe v. Wade last week or last month or 30 years ago is not likely to change his mind overnight. And numerous polls over years and decades indicate that a substantial majority of Americans want abortion to be legal and available on the terms, more or less, than Roe provides. If the issue was presented in a national referendum, legal abortion would win.
Yes it would, but the election matters, the polls don't. You can take all the polls you want regarding Roe v. Wade, but people will be voting for Representatives and Senators, and most people aren't single-issue voters. Millions of pro-choice people may still vote for anti-choice candidates for other reasons. Millions of people who respond to polls with pro-choice answers may not show up to vote at all.

You can take all the goddamn polls you want, BUT ALL THAT MATTERS IS WHO ACTUALLY VOTES AND WHO THEY VOTE FOR! Period!
__________________
Counting the days to Civil War II.
shemp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2022, 08:06 AM   #210
shuttlt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 9,479
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Yes it would, but the election matters, the polls don't. You can take all the polls you want regarding Roe v. Wade, but people will be voting for Representatives and Senators, and most people aren't single-issue voters. Millions of pro-choice people may still vote for anti-choice candidates for other reasons. Millions of people who respond to polls with pro-choice answers may not show up to vote at all.

You can take all the goddamn polls you want, BUT ALL THAT MATTERS IS WHO ACTUALLY VOTES AND WHO THEY VOTE FOR! Period!
You also have a whole bunch of systematic polling biases. Some sections of the population are harder to reach, some don't want to answer polls, some don't want to answer honestly. If you look into the methods of lots of polls, there is often a heck of a lot of subjective decision making involved in turning the raw data into something that genuinely reflects the population. Just because all the polls say mostly the same thing, doesn't mean they are right. Are they that great at predicting election percentages?
shuttlt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2022, 08:46 AM   #211
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 32,776
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Originalism is what Scalia used when it suited him. He ignored it when it didn't.

Alito is using it the same way.
Originalism is the compromise of the generous absolutist: it's only relatively relative.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

"There is another world, but it's in this one." (Paul Eluard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2022, 08:54 AM   #212
wareyin
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 9,939
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
You also have a whole bunch of systematic polling biases. Some sections of the population are harder to reach, some don't want to answer polls, some don't want to answer honestly. If you look into the methods of lots of polls, there is often a heck of a lot of subjective decision making involved in turning the raw data into something that genuinely reflects the population. Just because all the polls say mostly the same thing, doesn't mean they are right. Are they that great at predicting election percentages?
Within their margin of error, taken in aggregate, yeah they're actually pretty damn good at predicting who will win an election. Which is what they're intended to do.
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2022, 10:09 AM   #213
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 15,621
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
.....
You can take all the goddamn polls you want, BUT ALL THAT MATTERS IS WHO ACTUALLY VOTES AND WHO THEY VOTE FOR! Period!
Well, actually, if you want to adopt that position then you have to ask who gets to vote and who for. As a result of gerrymandering and other sleazy tactics, the vast majority of House districts are locked to one party or the other. State legislatures are even more rigidly divided. Some states have aggressively made it harder to vote, particularly for people who wouldn't be likely to vote for Repubs. 50 senators from the smallest states represent almost 50 million fewer Americans than the 50 from the bigger states. The Supreme Court is profoundly and smugly anti-democratic. If elections could get the majority what we want, we would have universal health care, tough gun laws, legal abortion, and higher taxes on the rich. And Al Gore and Hillary Clinton would have been President.

Last edited by Bob001; 28th June 2022 at 10:10 AM.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2022, 10:20 AM   #214
arayder
Master Poster
 
arayder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,474
Originally Posted by arayder View Post
The justices who so argue citing the Framers original intent disingenuously ignore the 9th amendment which reserves, to the people, rights which are not enumerated in the Constitution or the other Bills of Rights.
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
They could easily argue that the 10th Amendment reserves the power to regulate abortion (among other powers "not delegated to the United States by the Constitution") to the States.
So a state has the power to violate the privacy of a woman seeking an abortion? It seems to me that the court's decision on NY gun laws means the protections of the Bill of Rights extend to state actions. Is the court saying the state can't stop you from carrying a gun but it can violate the privacy of women and families seeking abortions?

But the real question might end up being whether the Congress via the Supremacy Clause has the authority to preempt state laws that conflict with any federal law protecting abortion rights.

You know. . .wave a magic wand over abortions (really health care in general). . .call it commerce and start dictating to the states.
arayder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2022, 10:27 AM   #215
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 9,169
Originally Posted by arayder View Post
So a state has the power to violate the privacy of a woman seeking an abortion?
This wasn't really in doubt from the 1820s until the 1970s.

Originally Posted by arayder View Post
It seems to me that the court's decision on NY gun laws means the protections of the Bill of Rights extend to state actions.
This has been true since Gitlow v. New York (1925), but only for selected rights.

Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Is the court saying the state can't stop you from carrying a gun but it can violate the privacy of women and families seeking abortions?
Yes.

Originally Posted by arayder View Post
But the real question might end up being whether the Congress via the Supremacy Clause has the authority to preempt state laws that conflict with any federal law protecting abortion rights.
If that question arises, I do not expect it will be because the Dems had the wherewithal to codify something like Casey or Roe. Instead, it will be because the GOP managed to pass a federal ban.
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2022, 10:49 AM   #216
arayder
Master Poster
 
arayder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,474
Thanks for the replies, d4m10n.

The practical application of how the Bill of Rights are made or not made applicable to the states baffles a lot of people.

In this case the idea that Kentucky woman has to cross the Ohio river to Illinois to get a safe and legal abortion sounds like a Dred Scott thing to a lot of people.

Last edited by arayder; 28th June 2022 at 10:50 AM.
arayder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2022, 01:15 PM   #217
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 9,169
Originally Posted by arayder View Post
In this case the idea that Kentucky woman has to cross the Ohio river to Illinois to get a safe and legal abortion sounds like a Dred Scott thing to a lot of people.
Not a bad analogy, IMO.

In both cases, SCOTUS had the chance to advance human rights, and in both cases they went with narrow originalism instead.
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2022, 01:28 PM   #218
Tero
Master Poster
 
Tero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North American prairie
Posts: 2,686
I was actually thinking that some 50/50 states might pass the 15 week ban. Enough democrats will think it's some kind of gain over the likely nothing, if the governor is Republican. Governorships here in the little states are just bought. All you need is ads on Fox TV a few months all day. My governor included. He has no skills at all, completely dependent on staff and a grasp of Trumpism.
__________________
Dominus vo-bisque'em Et cum spear a tu-tu, oh!

Politics blog: https://esapolitics.blogspot.com/
Parody: http://karireport.blogspot.com/
Poll: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...proval-rating/
Tero is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2022, 05:25 PM   #219
arayder
Master Poster
 
arayder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,474
Originally Posted by arayder View Post
In this case the idea that Kentucky woman has to cross the Ohio river to Illinois to get a safe and legal abortion sounds like a Dred Scott thing to a lot of people.
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Not a bad analogy, IMO.

In both cases, SCOTUS had the chance to advance human rights, and in both cases they went with narrow originalism instead.
One theory (which I understand is not supported in case law) is that the 14th amendment extends the first 8 amendments to all U.S. citizens.

But this theory doesn't extend unenumerated 9 amendment rights or penumbral (see Roe) rights to citizens.
arayder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2022, 07:42 AM   #220
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 9,169
A few maps of how things are playing out in the states:

https://www.medpagetoday.com/special...clusives/99466

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...in-every-state

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...alization-roe/

Kansas is of particular interest to me, since they will be holding a popular referendum vote in early August to allow the legislature to ban abortions going forward. It will be fascinating to see if the people are going to willingly hand over bodily autonomy, or if there is a significant gap between the rulers and the ruled.

Several other states where abortion is currently available seem likely to implement bans in coming months; I fully expect one will be able to travel from Savannah, Georgia to Priest Lake, Idaho without once stepping foot in a state which allows abortion after six weeks.
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.

Last edited by d4m10n; 29th June 2022 at 08:28 AM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2022, 07:48 AM   #221
shuttlt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 9,479
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
In both cases, SCOTUS had the chance to advance human rights, and in both cases they went with narrow originalism instead.
Why would one expect a conservative court to advance a progressive project?
shuttlt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2022, 08:26 AM   #222
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 9,169
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Why would one expect a conservative court to advance a progressive project?
No reason comes to mind, but on rare occasions originalism does lead to surprising results in favor of marginalized people, e.g. McGirt v. Oklahoma.

I could see a hyperliteralist conservative making a 13th Amendment case against forcing birthing women into involuntary servitude to fetal persons.
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.

Last edited by d4m10n; 29th June 2022 at 08:31 AM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2022, 08:38 AM   #223
wareyin
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 9,939
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
In both cases, SCOTUS had the chance to advance human rights, and in both cases they went with narrow originalism instead.
Why would one expect a conservative court to advance a progressive project?
Why do you automatically categorize "human rights" as a progressive project? Are conservatives opposed to human rights?
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2022, 08:49 AM   #224
shuttlt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 9,479
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Why do you automatically categorize "human rights" as a progressive project? Are conservatives opposed to human rights?
Because the whole Positive Rights expansion of Rights is a progressive project. The idea of improving the world by discovering more and more Rights is progressive. "Human rights" legislation requires a whole bureaucracy to administer, it is intrinsically big government. The idea of using big government and armies of bureaucrats and technocrats to solve everybody's problems is a progressive vision.
shuttlt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2022, 08:56 AM   #225
Shalamar
Dark Lord of the JREF
 
Shalamar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Somewhere Else
Posts: 5,557
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Because the whole Positive Rights expansion of Rights is a progressive project. The idea of improving the world by discovering more and more Rights is progressive. "Human rights" legislation requires a whole bureaucracy to administer, it is intrinsically big government. The idea of using big government and armies of bureaucrats and technocrats to solve everybody's problems is a progressive vision.
An interesting premise, if flawed.

After all, we have conservatives using big government, and armies of bureaucrats to strip or even deny rights to people that were once held.

Thank you for pointing out that conservatives despise rights and freedoms.
__________________

"The truth is out there. But the lies are inside your head."
Shalamar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2022, 08:57 AM   #226
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 15,621
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Why do you automatically categorize "human rights" as a progressive project? Are conservatives opposed to human rights?
Often, yes.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2022, 09:04 AM   #227
shuttlt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 9,479
Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
An interesting premise, if flawed.

After all, we have conservatives using big government, and armies of bureaucrats to strip or even deny rights to people that were once held.

Thank you for pointing out that conservatives despise rights and freedoms.
They have a different conception of them, that is all. The version in the post I was responding to was the progressive version.
shuttlt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2022, 09:08 AM   #228
Olmstead
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 1,112
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Because the whole Positive Rights expansion of Rights is a progressive project. The idea of improving the world by discovering more and more Rights is progressive. "Human rights" legislation requires a whole bureaucracy to administer, it is intrinsically big government. The idea of using big government and armies of bureaucrats and technocrats to solve everybody's problems is a progressive vision.
While conservatives prefer to use big government in order to make the lives of everybody they don't like miserable. Math checks out.
Olmstead is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2022, 10:15 AM   #229
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 18,913
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Because the whole Positive Rights expansion of Rights is a progressive project. The idea of improving the world by discovering more and more Rights is progressive. "Human rights" legislation requires a whole bureaucracy to administer, it is intrinsically big government.
Not necessarily. (Or, at least in some cases it doesn't require more bureaucracy than the alternative.)

If you grant women reproductive freedom/abortion rights, you don't necessarily NEED any more government worker (since women will be interacting with their doctors on a one-to-one basis.) The only time you might need the government involved is if/when the costs need to be covered under a publicly funded health system.

On the other hand, outlawing abortion requires: More police to enforce the laws, courts to prosecute women who dare to actually control their bodies, prisons (or other government mechanisms) to execute any judgements against them.

Of those 2 cases, which do you think requires "big government"?
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2022, 10:31 AM   #230
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,277
I hear talk of impeaching the SC justices for "lying" about their intentions over Roe vs Wade when questioned.

As a matter of curiosity, were any of them asked directly if they would overturn Roe vs Wade if a case came before them?
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2022, 10:43 AM   #231
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 18,913
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I hear talk of impeaching the SC justices for "lying" about their intentions over Roe vs Wade when questioned.

As a matter of curiosity, were any of them asked directly if they would overturn Roe vs Wade if a case came before them?
I suspect their answer would be the same... "I cannot comment on a hypothetical case" (or words to that effect)

Of course, they were asked about Roe v. Wade and they all claimed it was "settled". Now, the MAGAchud will try to justify things by playing some sort of word game, like "settled means it was decided at the time, not that it couldn't change in the future". We all know it was bunk though.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2022, 11:25 AM   #232
Lurch
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,211
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Because the whole Positive Rights expansion of Rights is a progressive project. The idea of improving the world by discovering more and more Rights is progressive. "Human rights" legislation requires a whole bureaucracy to administer, it is intrinsically big government. The idea of using big government and armies of bureaucrats and technocrats to solve everybody's problems is a progressive vision.
What bunk. If a right is recognized in a society, there is (nominally) no administrative burden. It is when a right is curtailed that an enforcement burden necessarily arises.

When abortion was allowed, women made for themselves a decision unfettered by the State. Now that this right has been clawed back, with legal consequences, the State must expend resources to enforce this new law.

And what's this 'discovering' rights thing? It's really striving for more freedom. You know; that "freedom" business about which Americans crow so vociferously.
Lurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2022, 11:37 AM   #233
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 9,169
Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
After all, we have conservatives using big government, and armies of bureaucrats to strip or even deny rights to people that were once held.
State gov't antiabortion bureaucracies are just getting started, we can only guess how "big government" they are going to get. Personally, I'm betting on mifepristone and misoprostol becoming the new battlegrounds in the longstanding "big government" war on drugs, along w/ DAs going after women for self-administering said drugs.
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2022, 12:03 PM   #234
Random
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,410
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
State gov't antiabortion bureaucracies are just getting started, we can only guess how "big government" they are going to get. Personally, I'm betting on mifepristone and misoprostol becoming the new battlegrounds in the longstanding "big government" war on drugs, along w/ DAs going after women for self-administering said drugs.
Get ready for the Miscarriage Police! There is not really an effective way to tell an early-term medical abortion from an early-term miscarriage. So, if someone shows up in a pro-life state with a “miscarriage” how do you tell if it a tragedy or a felony? A thorough background check! Did the woman tell any family members she was trying to have a baby? Has the woman purchased birth control recently? We definitely need to see her internet search history and phone records…
__________________
The road to Fascism is paved with people saying, "You're overreacting!".
Random is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2022, 01:05 PM   #235
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 15,621
Originally Posted by Random View Post
Get ready for the Miscarriage Police! There is not really an effective way to tell an early-term medical abortion from an early-term miscarriage.
.....

That is a real concern.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...-roe-abortion/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...-miscarriages/
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2022, 01:09 PM   #236
Hercules56
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,518
Sadly I believe this is what the Founders wanted.

Each state decides healthcare on their own. If they want to be a state of schmucks, thats their choice.

Only way around this is a Constitutional amendment allowing abortion until viability outside the womb.
Hercules56 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2022, 02:30 PM   #237
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 18,913
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Sadly I believe this is what the Founders wanted.

Each state decides healthcare on their own. If they want to be a state of schmucks, thats their choice.
Its not just a "healthcare" issue, its also a personal privacy issue.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2022, 02:48 PM   #238
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 92,445
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Because the whole Positive Rights expansion of Rights is a progressive project. The idea of improving the world by discovering more and more Rights is progressive. "Human rights" legislation requires a whole bureaucracy to administer, it is intrinsically big government. The idea of using big government and armies of bureaucrats and technocrats to solve everybody's problems is a progressive vision.
Let's take a closer look at this, shall we.

The thread and question is about a single human right, the right to make decisions about managing a pregnancy with one's medical provider. Roe v Wade granted that human right, the current SCOTUS took it away.

Instead of discussing that single denial of a human right you build a straw man argument claiming the thread is about multiple human rights, some of which are more progressive than others. Thus you claim the fight to take this one established human right is a Progressive fight (the highlighted sentence).

This thread is not about "the whole positive rights expansion."


As for the separate issue you included: "legislation requires a whole bureaucracy to administer, it is intrinsically big government. The idea of using big government and armies of bureaucrats and technocrats to solve everybody's problems is a progressive vision", that is an ironic joke. Enforcing abortion restrictions and bans in the states now tasked with the actions is already turning into a nightmare. In TX at least one prosecutor is refusing to prosecute anyone who violates TX's abortion ban.

People are wondering how the police in any state are going to look for ban violations. Talk includes monitoring people's phone aps where they track their menses. If you seek post-miscarriage medical care you might be subject to an intrusive investigation and even being charged with inducing the pregnancy loss. You can't get more "big government" than that.

Are you aware that the % of pregnancies which end in a natural miscarriage is over 10-15% in the first trimester?

Are you listening to/reading any of this?

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 29th June 2022 at 02:49 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2022, 02:58 PM   #239
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 92,445
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I hear talk of impeaching the SC justices for "lying" about their intentions over Roe vs Wade when questioned.

As a matter of curiosity, were any of them asked directly if they would overturn Roe vs Wade if a case came before them?
Right now you need 2/3 vote in both Houses. That won't happen under current conditions.

As for claiming they changed their minds, one could present their history of saying they wanted to overturn Roe. I don't think the Senate investigated seriously the last 3 justices for their anti-Roe views. The Democrats followed tradition of voting to install the SCOTUS regardless of who appointed them. Yes they balked at Bork, and maybe there were others I'm forgetting. It's moot now unless impeachment becomes a serious option.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2022, 05:11 PM   #240
Random
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,410
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Sadly I believe this is what the Founders wanted.

Each state decides healthcare on their own. If they want to be a state of schmucks, thats their choice.

Only way around this is a Constitutional amendment allowing abortion until viability outside the womb.
Well, back in the founder's day, bloodletting was still a thing, so I am comfortable with ignoring their opinions on medical care...
__________________
The road to Fascism is paved with people saying, "You're overreacting!".
Random is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:53 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.