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Tags lunar base , space habitat

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Old 27th July 2022, 07:06 PM   #1
Gord_in_Toronto
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Living in the Moon

Yes in. NASA finds deep warm holes and caves.

NASAíS LRO Spacecraft Detects A Lunar Lava Pit That Promises Room Temperatures

Closer than Mars.
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Old 27th July 2022, 07:08 PM   #2
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Cool!
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Old 27th July 2022, 07:11 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Yes in. NASA finds deep warm holes and caves.

NASA’S LRO Spacecraft Detects A Lunar Lava Pit That Promises Room Temperatures

Closer than Mars.
I’m certain more than one Skeptic’s Guide to the Universe episode has spoken about lava tubes as the only option for a moon settlement.
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Old 27th July 2022, 07:12 PM   #4
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Too bad the link is an aggressive advertising attack page.

Not to worry, though: In the interest of saving you a click, there is no lava on the moon. Just tunnels and pits attributed to ancient lava flows, and apparently harboring human-tolerable temperatures.
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Old 27th July 2022, 07:17 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Too bad the link is an aggressive advertising attack page.

Not to worry, though: In the interest of saving you a click, there is no lava on the moon. Just tunnels and pits attributed to ancient lava flows, and apparently harboring human-tolerable temperatures.
It isnít just temperatures, itís probably more protection against cosmic radiation.
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Old 28th July 2022, 06:12 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Too bad the link is an aggressive advertising attack page.

Not to worry, though: In the interest of saving you a click, there is no lava on the moon. Just tunnels and pits attributed to ancient lava flows, and apparently harboring human-tolerable temperatures.
There are ways of filtering out advertising. (Forbes is not the magazine it once was.)

In the interest of those who can't:

Quote:
Would setting up a habitat inside a shaded lava pit crater save energy?

Maintaining the heat that humans and robots need to survive costs a lot of energy, and during the day we are easily able to harness the Sun's energy to regulate temperatures, says Horvath. During the two-week lunar night, however, we must either produce it ourselves or have enough stored to survive for two weeks, he says.

By placing your habitat in a lunar cave, you almost entirely remove the need to regulate temperature, and it brings your energy requirements down drastically, says Horvath.
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Old 28th July 2022, 08:30 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
It isnít just temperatures, itís probably more protection against cosmic radiation.
The radiation shielding incentive was already well-known. The temperature incentive is a new finding.
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Old 28th July 2022, 08:32 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
There are ways of filtering out advertising. (Forbes is not the magazine it once was.)
I generally don't do much about it besides basic ad-blocking. This suits me just fine, most of the time. My phone, however, very much hated that page.

Is Forbes the original source, or is there some other primary source that's less misanthropic?
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Old 28th July 2022, 08:41 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Too bad the link is an aggressive advertising attack page.

Not to worry, though: In the interest of saving you a click, there is no lava on the moon. Just tunnels and pits attributed to ancient lava flows, and apparently harboring human-tolerable temperatures.
That was a remarkably obnoxious web page.

The thing with the temps is mostly about the extreme fluctuations that occur on the surface. Hundreds of degrees in a day apparently.
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Old 28th July 2022, 10:25 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Cool!
No. Not cool. Comfortably warm, in fact.
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Old 28th July 2022, 11:22 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I generally don't do much about it besides basic ad-blocking. This suits me just fine, most of the time. My phone, however, very much hated that page.

Is Forbes the original source, or is there some other primary source that's less misanthropic?
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard...ts-comfortable
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Old 28th July 2022, 11:22 AM   #12
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H.G. Wells was right?
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Old 28th July 2022, 11:29 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Thanks! That is a pretty cool finding.
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Old 28th July 2022, 12:42 PM   #14
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Why would anyone want to live on the moon? Other than a stop off on the way to Mars, and even then it would be just to explore... why would anyone want live on another planet of moon?

Its like living on Antartica, there are research stations there, but people don't live there permanently, and if they stay there too long, they suffer from psychological issues.

So basically, it would be a little place people might live in for a few weeks?
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Old 28th July 2022, 01:06 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I generally don't do much about it besides basic ad-blocking. This suits me just fine, most of the time. My phone, however, very much hated that page.

Is Forbes the original source, or is there some other primary source that's less misanthropic?
Forbes is not the same after being bought by Whale.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes
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Old 28th July 2022, 01:06 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
Why would anyone want to live on the moon? Other than a stop off on the way to Mars, and even then it would be just to explore... why would anyone want live on another planet of moon?

Its like living on Antartica, there are research stations there, but people don't live there permanently, and if they stay there too long, they suffer from psychological issues.

So basically, it would be a little place people might live in for a few weeks?
I generally feel the same way about moon habitats.

But the point about Antarctica is relevant: Even if we don't intend to live there permanently, we still want people stationed there to be able to live well enough to do useful work for cost-effective periods of time without going insane or getting moonsick.

The real questions being: Why would we want to station people there. And the answers of course are: Science, and resource extraction. I'm not a big fan of the "Mars stopover" answer, which seems to me more like a detour. Once you've got a Mars traveler in orbit, you might as well just keep going from there. Trains don't go to Newcastle to get coal. Rather, Newcastle ships coal to the train depots.
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Old 28th July 2022, 08:32 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Yalius View Post
No. Not cool. Comfortably warm, in fact.
I was waiting for that. Thank you for obliging.
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Old 29th July 2022, 04:38 AM   #18
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Old 29th July 2022, 06:15 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
"...Giant steps are what you take, living in the Moon.
I hope my legs don't break, living in the Moon... "
Are you Mike from Heinlein's The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress? If so, I bow to your authority.
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Old 29th July 2022, 07:50 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
That was a remarkably obnoxious web page.

The thing with the temps is mostly about the extreme fluctuations that occur on the surface. Hundreds of degrees in a day apparently.
Remembering a lunar day is not the same as an earth Day.
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Old 29th July 2022, 07:49 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Remembering a lunar day is not the same as an earth Day.
Scrolled down to see if he would catch, uh .. hell for that gaffe.
You're feeling rather generous today.
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Old 29th July 2022, 10:15 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Are you Mike from Heinlein's The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress? If so, I bow to your authority.
Hmm...

Mike didn't have any legs.

Are you thinking of Mannie?
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Old 30th July 2022, 09:30 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
Hmm...

Mike didn't have any legs.

Are you thinking of Mannie?
Oh. Oh. You caught me. But I have to admit I was not thinking at all.
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Old 30th July 2022, 11:46 AM   #24
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For the record, I have legs, and I'm not that Mike.
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Old 30th July 2022, 08:55 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
For the record, I have legs, and I'm not that Mike.
Phew. Finally, one question answered definitively in this forum.
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Old 31st July 2022, 05:59 AM   #26
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There is a bigger problem, though, that Antarctica doesn't have: micro-gravity. It's really really bad for you in the long run. And we really have no idea how to mitigate its effects on the body.
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Old 31st July 2022, 07:21 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
Why would anyone want to live on the moon? Other than a stop off on the way to Mars,
Sillier and sillier...
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Old 2nd August 2022, 01:35 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
There is a bigger problem, though, that Antarctica doesn't have: micro-gravity. It's really really bad for you in the long run. And we really have no idea how to mitigate its effects on the body.
Indeed, which is why Venus would be better:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-WO-z-QuWI&vl=en-GB
(couldn't work out the YT link code on this one)
But even that would be pointless.
At the end of the day, space is really difficult, and its easier and cheaper to do things on Earth.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 04:39 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
Indeed, which is why Venus would be better:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-WO-z-QuWI&vl=en-GB
(couldn't work out the YT link code on this one)
But even that would be pointless.
At the end of the day, space is really difficult, and its easier and cheaper to do things on Earth.
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I AGREE

Here is your video. To terraform Venus will take several centuries.

One thing that could be done is to live on airships in the atmosphere above the clouds where the air pressure is not too much different from Earth. Not sure what could be done there that could also not be done on Earth. Maybe research about Venus?
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Old 2nd August 2022, 08:23 AM   #30
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Well, I suppose it could serve a purpose. We could take bets about how long until they start murdering each other. And then make it a reality show.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 11:13 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
There is a bigger problem, though, that Antarctica doesn't have: micro-gravity. It's really really bad for you in the long run. And we really have no idea how to mitigate its effects on the body.
The moon doesn't have micro-gravity. It has the regular kind, just less of it. There's an up and a down. Ear canals and ceiling fans will work. That's very different from a microgravity environment.

Space colonization is going to face enough possibly-insurmountable problems not to have to drag wrong ones along just in case you run out.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 11:34 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
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I AGREE

Here is your video. To terraform Venus will take several centuries.

One thing that could be done is to live on airships in the atmosphere above the clouds where the air pressure is not too much different from Earth. Not sure what could be done there that could also not be done on Earth. Maybe research about Venus?
Thank you, and I agree.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 11:53 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
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I AGREE

Here is your video. To terraform Venus will take several centuries.

One thing that could be done is to live on airships in the atmosphere above the clouds where the air pressure is not too much different from Earth. Not sure what could be done there that could also not be done on Earth. Maybe research about Venus?
By the time we're ready to do airship-based Venus research, we'll probably be in a position to just have the airships be unmanned.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 03:02 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Every time, I swear.


The moon doesn't have micro-gravity. It has the regular kind, just less of it. There's an up and a down. Ear canals and ceiling fans will work. That's very different from a microgravity environment.

Space colonization is going to face enough possibly-insurmountable problems not to have to drag wrong ones along just in case you run out.
I'm curious WTH do you think microgravity means. There IS one single kind of gravity: the GR kind. Less of it is the whole problem.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 03:06 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I'm curious WTH do you think microgravity means. There IS one single kind of gravity: the GR kind. Less of it is the whole problem.
Microgravity is the current pedantic term for what we previously called zero g. Lunar gravity is substantially greater than that. Biological processes that depend on gravity get some help from the moon, but none at all from the microgravity measured on the ISS and elsewhere in the solar system.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 03:52 PM   #36
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However you wish to name any given percentage of 1g, the problem is that we have doubts if even Mars 0.38g gravity is enough to keep you healthy over a long enough time. The cut-off, as far as anyone knows at the moment seems to be around 0.4g for stuff to start getting measurably worse over time. Below 0.4g it's considered that both cardio-pulmonary and musculo-skeletal properties start going south.(Source, for example: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...tematic_Review )

I suppose that on Mars we might get away with it, at least for a while, if you force everyone to exercise every day.

Moon's 0.16g is almost universally considered not enough. Just nope. We're no longer talking about being 5% under that minimum and maybe we can just fudge it for a few years at a time like on Mars. We're talking about being 2.5 TIMES below that minimum.

So, basically, sure, name it whatever you wish, but the main issue is that there just isn't enough of it. Arguing about how to call it, won't change the fact that it's just not good for your health.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 04:26 PM   #37
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I just wish to use the the established, industry standard names. If you want to talk about low gravity, talk about low gravity. Don't talk about microgravity and then insist it counts as low gravity. It doesn't.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 04:47 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I'm curious WTH do you think microgravity means.
An environment where you can commonly measure acceleration between 0g and 0.000001g. That should be true for the ISS outside of powered events (boosts, attitude changes, etc.)
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Old 2nd August 2022, 05:45 PM   #39
BowlOfRed
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Originally Posted by BowlOfRed View Post
That should be true for the ISS outside of powered events (boosts, attitude changes, etc.)
Oops, that last part isn't true. While the long-term range is right, many vibration events cause that limit to be exceeded on the ISS.
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Old 5th August 2022, 06:52 PM   #40
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
So, basically, sure, name it whatever you wish, but the main issue is that there just isn't enough of it. Arguing about how to call it, won't change the fact that it's just not good for your health.
I don't think that is known to be a fact.

It may be that if you live on the Moon or Mars you will take advantage of the lower gravity and start walking faster and jumping higher in the normal course of a day and put full (or enough) stress on your bones.

Current knowledge of bone loss is mostly based on bed rest patients which may not be a good analog.

Here is an article from three years ago about ESA studies on this:

https://newatlas.com/esa-astronuats-...gravity/58221/
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