John Shelby Spong - Christianity Without Theism

Thor 2 · 5th August 2022, 04:03 PM

Just reading (for the second time) "The Sins Of Scripture" by John Shelby Spong and (as I did the first time) find his propositions confounding.

Spong rejects just about everything written in the Bible, both Old and New, and still insists on describing himself as a Christian. He even rejects theism and redefines God as a quality in man, that is evolving, and not a separate entity.

I do agree with every criticism he makes about existing Christianity however.

Olmstead · 5th August 2022, 04:11 PM

He knows intellectually that Christianity is nonsense, but emotionally he still wants a "Get out of Hell free" card because it's hard to shake off childhood trauma?

theprestige · 5th August 2022, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by Olmstead

He knows intellectually that Christianity is nonsense, but emotionally he still wants a "Get out of Hell free" card because it's hard to shake off childhood trauma?

That doesn't seem consistent with Thor2's characterization of his work.

Olmstead · 5th August 2022, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

That doesn't seem consistent with Thor2's characterization of his work.

Maybe not. Honestly, he seemed to have been an agnostic who had bought into the children's book version of Christianity and really wanted it to be true.

Thor 2 · 5th August 2022, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

That doesn't seem consistent with Thor2's characterization of his work.

True. Spong doesn't belief in the existence of Hell.

GDon · 5th August 2022, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Just reading (for the second time) "The Sins Of Scripture" by John Shelby Spong and (as I did the first time) find his propositions confounding.

Spong rejects just about everything written in the Bible, both Old and New, and still insists on describing himself as a Christian. He even rejects theism and redefines God as a quality in man, that is evolving, and not a separate entity.

What is confusing about that? Sounds clear enough. Can you explain any particular thing you find confusing about Spong's Christianity?

I'll note there are some atheists that seem to think that only literalist / fundamentalism / young earth creationism represents the 'true' Christianity and more liberal Christianities don't make sense. In that, they have the agreement of literalist / fundamentalist / young earth creationists!

Thor 2 · 5th August 2022, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by GDon

What is confusing about that? Sounds clear enough. Can you explain any particular thing you find confusing about Spong's Christianity?

I'll note there are some atheists that seem to think that only literalist / fundamentalism / young earth creationism represents the 'true' Christianity and more liberal Christianities don't make sense. In that, they have the agreement of literalist / fundamentalist / young earth creationists!

I would have thought it was obvious...... not to you though?

Most would define Christianity as resting on the words of holy scripture. The life of Jesus in particular more instance. Spong rejects just about everything however, including the notion that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of man.

GDon · 5th August 2022, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

I would have thought it was obvious...... not to you though?

It's been a while since I've read anything by Spong. I found him interesting but not confusing IIRC.

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Most would define Christianity as resting on the words of holy scripture. The life of Jesus in particular more instance. Spong rejects just about everything however, including the notion that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of man.

Ebionite Christians rejected substitutionary atonement as well. Marcionite Christians rejected the OT and most of the NT, holding to only one Gospel and some letters by Paul, all of which they believed were corrupted by orthodox Christians. They are some of the earliest Christians.

Spong is certainly inconsistent with orthodox Christianity, but that doesn't make him confusing.

Gord_in_Toronto · 5th August 2022, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by GDon

What is confusing about that? Sounds clear enough. Can you explain any particular thing you find confusing about Spong's Christianity?

I'll note there are some atheists that seem to think that only literalist / fundamentalism / young earth creationism represents the 'true' Christianity and more liberal Christianities don't make sense. In that, they have the agreement of literalist / fundamentalist / young earth creationists!

If you reduce Christianity to the belief that "Jesus was a mostly good person" then we are all Christians. If you think Jesus was the Son of God, then you are deluded.

bruto · 5th August 2022, 09:17 PM

A lot of my forebears were Universalists and though I haven't read Spong, the description sounds pretty familiar. Other sects have been gunning for Universalists and Unitarians and Deists and whatnot, for generations, claiming that they can't be real Christians because they reject this or believe that. But anyone who wants to call himself a Christian is free to do so and I don't think any honest Christian can reasonably call the cherry picking of others a sin.

GDon · 5th August 2022, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

If you reduce Christianity to the belief that "Jesus was a mostly good person" then we are all Christians. If you think Jesus was the Son of God, then you are deluded.

Correct. Nothing confusing there.

Irony · 5th August 2022, 10:43 PM

Call it No True Scotsman if you like, but a guy who lives in Poland, whose entire family has lived in Poland for generations, and who has never so much as set foot on the British Isles is not a Scotsman.
Likewise belief in a God (singular) and some sort of deification of Jesus (usually literally, but I'd accept metaphorically) is the barebones minimum I will accept for someone calling themselves Christian. Words can be nebulous in their meaning, and dividing people into groups almost always comes with edge cases, but there must be SOME restrictions otherwise a term becomes quite literally meaningless.

Lplus · 5th August 2022, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Just reading (for the second time) "The Sins Of Scripture" by John Shelby Spong and (as I did the first time) find his propositions confounding.

Spong rejects just about everything written in the Bible, both Old and New, and still insists on describing himself as a Christian. He even rejects theism and redefines God as a quality in man, that is evolving, and not a separate entity.

I do agree with every criticism he makes about existing Christianity however.

Does that mean he accepts the "Christian" ethos, but not the scriptures that are its basis?

zooterkin · 6th August 2022, 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by Olmstead

He knows intellectually that Christianity is nonsense, but emotionally he still wants a "Get out of Hell free" card because it's hard to shake off childhood trauma?

Well, he'll have found the answer to that last September.

Olmstead · 6th August 2022, 04:24 AM

Originally Posted by GDon

Correct. Nothing confusing there.

There also isn't anything confusing about me being a Shintoist because I really like Spirited Away.

Oh wait, yes there is. I should get that checked out.

junkshop · 6th August 2022, 04:36 AM

CINO

Gord_in_Toronto · 6th August 2022, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by GDon

Correct. Nothing confusing there.

However, I does mean that you cannot be an Anglican because to be an Anglican you must accept the truths in the Apostles' Creed. Primarily one of which is the Godhood of JC.

Gord_in_Toronto · 6th August 2022, 06:10 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Well, he'll have found the answer to that last September.

No he did not! When you die you stop functioning. You know like a burnt out light bulb.

bruto · 6th August 2022, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

However, I does mean that you cannot be an Anglican because to be an Anglican you must accept the truths in the Apostles' Creed. Primarily one of which is the Godhood of JC.

And conversely if one is a Quaker or a Baptist or a Unitarian or a Dutch Reformed Congregationalist, etc. one can call oneself a Christian if they find the designation comfortable, since those sects, like many, are "non-creedal."

There's another thread around about what it means to "identify as" something. Here's one example. For many Christian sects, if you're not embarrassed to identify as one of them, you are one.

Gord_in_Toronto · 6th August 2022, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by bruto

And conversely if one is a Quaker or a Baptist or a Unitarian or a Dutch Reformed Congregationalist, etc. one can call oneself a Christian if they find the designation comfortable, since those sects, like many, are "non-creedal."

There's another thread around about what it means to "identify as" something. Here's one example. For many Christian sects, if you're not embarrassed to identify as one of them, you are one.

You can call yourself anything you like but to get the official Anglican membership card you must agree to the contents of the Apostles' Creed.

bruto · 6th August 2022, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

You can call yourself anything you like but to get the official Anglican membership card you must agree to the contents of the Apostles' Creed.

Exactly, because the Anglican Church is creedal while others are not. You can pretend to be an Anglican without agreeing to the creed, but you can be a deacon or a preacher in other sects without doing so.

Thor 2 · 6th August 2022, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

No he did not! When you die you stop functioning. You know like a burnt out light bulb.

As I believe also.

A gripe I have, is that when those Christians I have been arguing with die, they will not know they were wrong.

If they are right however, when I die, I will know I was wrong big time.

Thor 2 · 6th August 2022, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by Lplus

Does that mean he accepts the "Christian" ethos, but not the scriptures that are its basis?

He certainly rejects the scriptures.

The Christian ethos is a hard one to nail down methinks.

Thor 2 · 6th August 2022, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by Irony

Call it No True Scotsman if you like, but a guy who lives in Poland, whose entire family has lived in Poland for generations, and who has never so much as set foot on the British Isles is not a Scotsman.
Likewise belief in a God (singular) and some sort of deification of Jesus (usually literally, but I'd accept metaphorically) is the barebones minimum I will accept for someone calling themselves Christian. Words can be nebulous in their meaning, and dividing people into groups almost always comes with edge cases, but there must be SOME restrictions otherwise a term becomes quite literally meaningless.

Something must have a definition, that is accepted by all those in discussion about it, before any meaningful discussion can be had.

Bertrand Russell in his book "Why I am not a Christian", firstly defined what a Christian was, before he entered into his argument. I don't think the Spong description of his own Christianity would have fitted.

slyjoe · 6th August 2022, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

As I believe also.

A gripe I have, is that when those Christians I have been arguing with die, they will not know they were wrong.

If they are right however, when I die, I will know I was wrong big time.

I like it.

We can call this the "Thor 2 Wager".

Gord_in_Toronto · 6th August 2022, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

As I believe also.

A gripe I have, is that when those Christians I have been arguing with die, they will not know they were wrong.

If they are right however, when I die, I will know I was wrong big time.

I know you do. I was just adding emphasis.

Maybe there is a god and when you die he'll say. "Congrats Thor, you figured it out correctly. Here, have some delicious white grapes (qv)."

5th August 2022, 04:03 PM	#1
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane. Posts: 7,069	John Shelby Spong - Christianity Without Theism Just reading (for the second time) "The Sins Of Scripture" by John Shelby Spong and (as I did the first time) find his propositions confounding. Spong rejects just about everything written in the Bible, both Old and New, and still insists on describing himself as a Christian. He even rejects theism and redefines God as a quality in man, that is evolving, and not a separate entity. I do agree with every criticism he makes about existing Christianity however.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

5th August 2022, 04:13 PM	#3
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 60,194	Originally Posted by Olmstead He knows intellectually that Christianity is nonsense, but emotionally he still wants a "Get out of Hell free" card because it's hard to shake off childhood trauma? That doesn't seem consistent with Thor2's characterization of his work.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

5th August 2022, 04:34 PM	#5
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane. Posts: 7,069	Originally Posted by theprestige That doesn't seem consistent with Thor2's characterization of his work. True. Spong doesn't belief in the existence of Hell.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

5th August 2022, 04:53 PM	#6
GDon Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 1,356	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Just reading (for the second time) "The Sins Of Scripture" by John Shelby Spong and (as I did the first time) find his propositions confounding. Spong rejects just about everything written in the Bible, both Old and New, and still insists on describing himself as a Christian. He even rejects theism and redefines God as a quality in man, that is evolving, and not a separate entity. What is confusing about that? Sounds clear enough. Can you explain any particular thing you find confusing about Spong's Christianity? I'll note there are some atheists that seem to think that only literalist / fundamentalism / young earth creationism represents the 'true' Christianity and more liberal Christianities don't make sense. In that, they have the agreement of literalist / fundamentalist / young earth creationists!
GDon Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 1,356

5th August 2022, 05:07 PM	#7
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane. Posts: 7,069	Originally Posted by GDon What is confusing about that? Sounds clear enough. Can you explain any particular thing you find confusing about Spong's Christianity? I'll note there are some atheists that seem to think that only literalist / fundamentalism / young earth creationism represents the 'true' Christianity and more liberal Christianities don't make sense. In that, they have the agreement of literalist / fundamentalist / young earth creationists! I would have thought it was obvious...... not to you though? Most would define Christianity as resting on the words of holy scripture. The life of Jesus in particular more instance. Spong rejects just about everything however, including the notion that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of man.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

5th August 2022, 04:11 PM	#2
Olmstead Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 1,112	He knows intellectually that Christianity is nonsense, but emotionally he still wants a "Get out of Hell free" card because it's hard to shake off childhood trauma?

5th August 2022, 04:27 PM	#4
Olmstead Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 1,112	Originally Posted by theprestige That doesn't seem consistent with Thor2's characterization of his work. Maybe not. Honestly, he seemed to have been an agnostic who had bought into the children's book version of Christianity and really wanted it to be true.

5th August 2022, 05:29 PM	#8
GDon Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 1,356	Originally Posted by Thor 2 I would have thought it was obvious...... not to you though? It's been a while since I've read anything by Spong. I found him interesting but not confusing IIRC. Originally Posted by Thor 2 Most would define Christianity as resting on the words of holy scripture. The life of Jesus in particular more instance. Spong rejects just about everything however, including the notion that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of man. Ebionite Christians rejected substitutionary atonement as well. Marcionite Christians rejected the OT and most of the NT, holding to only one Gospel and some letters by Paul, all of which they believed were corrupted by orthodox Christians. They are some of the earliest Christians. Spong is certainly inconsistent with orthodox Christianity, but that doesn't make him confusing.
GDon Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 1,356

5th August 2022, 08:58 PM	#9
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 22,677	Originally Posted by GDon What is confusing about that? Sounds clear enough. Can you explain any particular thing you find confusing about Spong's Christianity? I'll note there are some atheists that seem to think that only literalist / fundamentalism / young earth creationism represents the 'true' Christianity and more liberal Christianities don't make sense. In that, they have the agreement of literalist / fundamentalist / young earth creationists! If you reduce Christianity to the belief that "Jesus was a mostly good person" then we are all Christians. If you think Jesus was the Son of God, then you are deluded.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

5th August 2022, 09:17 PM	#10
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 32,776	A lot of my forebears were Universalists and though I haven't read Spong, the description sounds pretty familiar. Other sects have been gunning for Universalists and Unitarians and Deists and whatnot, for generations, claiming that they can't be real Christians because they reject this or believe that. But anyone who wants to call himself a Christian is free to do so and I don't think any honest Christian can reasonably call the cherry picking of others a sin.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) "There is another world, but it's in this one." (Paul Eluard)

5th August 2022, 09:18 PM	#11
GDon Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 1,356	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto If you reduce Christianity to the belief that "Jesus was a mostly good person" then we are all Christians. If you think Jesus was the Son of God, then you are deluded. Correct. Nothing confusing there.
GDon Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 1,356

5th August 2022, 10:43 PM	#12
Irony Muse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 926	Call it No True Scotsman if you like, but a guy who lives in Poland, whose entire family has lived in Poland for generations, and who has never so much as set foot on the British Isles is not a Scotsman. Likewise belief in a God (singular) and some sort of deification of Jesus (usually literally, but I'd accept metaphorically) is the barebones minimum I will accept for someone calling themselves Christian. Words can be nebulous in their meaning, and dividing people into groups almost always comes with edge cases, but there must be SOME restrictions otherwise a term becomes quite literally meaningless.
Irony Muse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 926

5th August 2022, 11:43 PM	#13
Lplus Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 1,155	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Just reading (for the second time) "The Sins Of Scripture" by John Shelby Spong and (as I did the first time) find his propositions confounding. Spong rejects just about everything written in the Bible, both Old and New, and still insists on describing himself as a Christian. He even rejects theism and redefines God as a quality in man, that is evolving, and not a separate entity. I do agree with every criticism he makes about existing Christianity however. Does that mean he accepts the "Christian" ethos, but not the scriptures that are its basis?
Lplus Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 1,155	__________________ Life isn't fair, Princess; anyone who says it could be is selling a political ideology. Whinging on internet forums is the last resort of the powerless

6th August 2022, 12:05 AM	#14
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 52,872	Originally Posted by Olmstead He knows intellectually that Christianity is nonsense, but emotionally he still wants a "Get out of Hell free" card because it's hard to shake off childhood trauma? Well, he'll have found the answer to that last September.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20

6th August 2022, 04:24 AM	#15
Olmstead Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 1,112	Originally Posted by GDon Correct. Nothing confusing there. There also isn't anything confusing about me being a Shintoist because I really like Spirited Away. Oh wait, yes there is. I should get that checked out.

6th August 2022, 04:36 AM	#16
junkshop Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Where the gin was. Posts: 1,033	CINO
	__________________ Not a Cockney. On occasion my prose may display a tendency toward the purple. I blame Prince.

6th August 2022, 06:07 AM	#17
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 22,677	Originally Posted by GDon Correct. Nothing confusing there. However, I does mean that you cannot be an Anglican because to be an Anglican you must accept the truths in the Apostles' Creed. Primarily one of which is the Godhood of JC.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

6th August 2022, 06:10 AM	#18
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 22,677	Originally Posted by zooterkin Well, he'll have found the answer to that last September. No he did not! When you die you stop functioning. You know like a burnt out light bulb.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

6th August 2022, 07:07 AM	#19
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 32,776	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto However, I does mean that you cannot be an Anglican because to be an Anglican you must accept the truths in the Apostles' Creed. Primarily one of which is the Godhood of JC. And conversely if one is a Quaker or a Baptist or a Unitarian or a Dutch Reformed Congregationalist, etc. one can call oneself a Christian if they find the designation comfortable, since those sects, like many, are "non-creedal." There's another thread around about what it means to "identify as" something. Here's one example. For many Christian sects, if you're not embarrassed to identify as one of them, you are one.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) "There is another world, but it's in this one." (Paul Eluard)

6th August 2022, 11:06 AM	#20
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 22,677	Originally Posted by bruto And conversely if one is a Quaker or a Baptist or a Unitarian or a Dutch Reformed Congregationalist, etc. one can call oneself a Christian if they find the designation comfortable, since those sects, like many, are "non-creedal." There's another thread around about what it means to "identify as" something. Here's one example. For many Christian sects, if you're not embarrassed to identify as one of them, you are one. You can call yourself anything you like but to get the official Anglican membership card you must agree to the contents of the Apostles' Creed.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

6th August 2022, 12:02 PM	#21
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 32,776	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto You can call yourself anything you like but to get the official Anglican membership card you must agree to the contents of the Apostles' Creed. Exactly, because the Anglican Church is creedal while others are not. You can pretend to be an Anglican without agreeing to the creed, but you can be a deacon or a preacher in other sects without doing so.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) "There is another world, but it's in this one." (Paul Eluard)

6th August 2022, 03:12 PM	#22
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane. Posts: 7,069	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto No he did not! When you die you stop functioning. You know like a burnt out light bulb. As I believe also. A gripe I have, is that when those Christians I have been arguing with die, they will not know they were wrong. If they are right however, when I die, I will know I was wrong big time.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

6th August 2022, 03:15 PM	#23
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane. Posts: 7,069	Originally Posted by Lplus Does that mean he accepts the "Christian" ethos, but not the scriptures that are its basis? He certainly rejects the scriptures. The Christian ethos is a hard one to nail down methinks.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

6th August 2022, 03:23 PM	#24
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane. Posts: 7,069	Originally Posted by Irony Call it No True Scotsman if you like, but a guy who lives in Poland, whose entire family has lived in Poland for generations, and who has never so much as set foot on the British Isles is not a Scotsman. Likewise belief in a God (singular) and some sort of deification of Jesus (usually literally, but I'd accept metaphorically) is the barebones minimum I will accept for someone calling themselves Christian. Words can be nebulous in their meaning, and dividing people into groups almost always comes with edge cases, but there must be SOME restrictions otherwise a term becomes quite literally meaningless. Something must have a definition, that is accepted by all those in discussion about it, before any meaningful discussion can be had. Bertrand Russell in his book "Why I am not a Christian", firstly defined what a Christian was, before he entered into his argument. I don't think the Spong description of his own Christianity would have fitted.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

6th August 2022, 04:31 PM	#25
slyjoe Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ Posts: 3,240	Originally Posted by Thor 2 As I believe also. A gripe I have, is that when those Christians I have been arguing with die, they will not know they were wrong. If they are right however, when I die, I will know I was wrong big time. I like it. We can call this the "Thor 2 Wager".
	__________________ "You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade

6th August 2022, 08:50 PM	#26
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 22,677	Originally Posted by Thor 2 As I believe also. A gripe I have, is that when those Christians I have been arguing with die, they will not know they were wrong. If they are right however, when I die, I will know I was wrong big time. I know you do. I was just adding emphasis. Maybe there is a god and when you die he'll say. "Congrats Thor, you figured it out correctly. Here, have some delicious white grapes (qv)."
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick