Split Thread Epstein murdered

Abooga

Graduate Poster
Abooga
Joined
Mar 16, 2006
Messages
1,106
smartcooky said:
Over there in Fantasyland, every client of Maxwell and Epstein who had sex with under-aged or trafficked girls would be charged, prosecuted, found guilty and sentenced to long jail terms, but over here in Realworld, this is only going to happen if there is a direct complaint made to Law Enforcement by an actual victim against a specific person.. and that rarely happens because the victims are afraid to speak out... ask yourselves why that might be!!

[...].
Click to expand...

Well, the fact is that those clients have so much power that could get Epstein killed in prison and get away with it . It´s not surprising that many people have a very low opinion of the justice system and believe in crazy conspiracies.
 
Abooga said:
Well, the fact is that those clients have so much power that could get Epstein killed in prison and get away with it . It´s not surprising that many people have a very low opinion of the justice system and believe in crazy conspiracies.
Click to expand...

There is absolutely no evidence that Epstein was "offed" by "powerful people". That is just a nutbar conspiracy theory.
 
Last edited:
smartcooky said:
There is absolutely no evidence that Epstein was "offed" by "powerful people". That is just a nutbar conspiracy theory.
Click to expand...
Do you really believe that? When I heard he was in prison... I assumed he´d be put in some special place, I imagined one of these glass boxes you see in films (silence of the lambs etc.) with 24/7 cctv surveillance and a special team of incorruptible cops watching. I mean, he was the most important prisoner in the USA at that moment. And I thought special measures would be taken because nobody would believe he had commited suicide, too convenient, too easy to avoid... such a ridicule for the USA where supposedly these things don´t happen... and then you learn that he was housed with a violent prisoner who tried to kill him, that he denounced that they were trying to kill him and that he had no intention to kill himself... then suddenly all the cctv in the area malfunction, the guards don´t do the required surveillance, all so convenient... and he´s dead, with injuries more fitting with a strangulation than with self inflicted hanging...

As we say in Spanish, blanco y el botella... I think the nutbar is whoever believes the "official version".
 
Matthew Best said:
We have a whole sub-forum for whacky conspiracy theories. You can take this nonsense there, if you want to talk about it.
Click to expand...
Whacky? Do you also consider all those Russians who mysteriously fall from windows also whacky conspiracy theories? When it´s white and it comes in a bottle, it´s safe to assume it´s milk.
 
Abooga said:
Do you really believe that? When I heard he was in prison... I assumed he´d be put in some special place, I imagined one of these glass boxes you see in films (silence of the lambs etc.) with 24/7 cctv surveillance and a special team of incorruptible cops watching. I mean, he was the most important prisoner in the USA at that moment. And I thought special measures would be taken because nobody would believe he had commited suicide, too convenient, too easy to avoid... such a ridicule for the USA where supposedly these things don´t happen... and then you learn that he was housed with a violent prisoner who tried to kill him, that he denounced that they were trying to kill him and that he had no intention to kill himself... then suddenly all the cctv in the area malfunction, the guards don´t do the required surveillance, all so convenient... and he´s dead, with injuries more fitting with a strangulation than with self inflicted hanging...
Click to expand...

Short of locking up the prisoner naked in a padded cell (which would be a gross violation of their rights) there is not much you can do to prevent them from killing themselves if they are determined enough to do so.

MorningJoeFacepalm-EpsteinSuicide.png
 
Last edited:
Abooga said:
Do you really believe that? When I heard he was in prison... I assumed he´d be put in some special place, I imagined one of these glass boxes you see in films (silence of the lambs etc.) with 24/7 cctv surveillance and a special team of incorruptible cops watching. I mean, he was the most important prisoner in the USA at that moment. And I thought special measures would be taken because nobody would believe he had commited suicide, too convenient, too easy to avoid... such a ridicule for the USA where supposedly these things don´t happen... and then you learn that he was housed with a violent prisoner who tried to kill him, that he denounced that they were trying to kill him and that he had no intention to kill himself... then suddenly all the cctv in the area malfunction, the guards don´t do the required surveillance, all so convenient... and he´s dead, with injuries more fitting with a strangulation than with self inflicted hanging...
Click to expand...


Given all that, Smartcooky's conclusion that "[t]here is absolutely no evidence that Epstein was offed by powerful people" seems reasonable.
 
smartcooky said:
Short of locking up the prisoner naked in a padded cell (which would be a gross violation of their rights) there is not much you can do to prevent them from killing themselves if they are determined enough to do so.
Click to expand...

Well, you could have working CCTV cameras, guards checking every half hour, like the law mandates... not put him in the same cell with another violent inmate who could kill him, like the one who tried... but they did the opposite of these three things. If I had to put a score to conspiracy theories, flat earth would fall in the most implausible side of the spectrum, and the murder of Epstein in the most plausible side, together for exaple with the CT that speculates that Putin is ordering the killing of his political adversaries by defenestration. This last one gets mentioned quite often in threads outside the shameful CT area of the forum without everyone demanding to be taken there... The case of Epstein is similarly unlikely to not be foul play.
 
Mojo said:
Given all that, Smartcooky's conclusion that "[t]here is absolutely no evidence that Epstein was offed by powerful people" seems reasonable.
Click to expand...

Yes, the same as there is no evidence that Putin ordered the murder of his political adversaries. No hard evidence. As it often happen in conspiracies, which by definition strive for secrecy.
 
Abooga said:
Yes, the same as there is no evidence that Putin ordered the murder of his political adversaries. No hard evidence. As it often happen in conspiracies, which by definition strive for secrecy.
Click to expand...

That's not a conspiracy though, that's just an allegation of murder. A conspiracy is "an unlawful, harmful, or evil plan formulated in secret by two or more persons" The murder of Jefferey Epstein would require a number of people to be complicit in planning and carrying out the task.

1. Two or more powerful people to get together and conspire to kill him.

2. Someone with the skills to disable the cameras without being detected, in such a way that it does not look like sabotage, and which will withstand a forensic investigation.

3A. Bribing the guards sufficiently well that they will never reveal what they agreed to do, or

3B. Infiltrating the police station with their own people well ahead of the time the job is to be done.

4. Carrying out the job in such a way that no-one else (i.e those who have not been bribed) catches them in the act.

This is going to involve dozens of people, and the more people involved, the more likely there is to be a leak... Only the two people involved knew Monica Lewinski was giving Bill Clinton blow-jobs in the White House.. and look what happened in that case!

On the other hand, if Putin wants a political opponent offed, he just orders the FSB to carry out the job.... and two burly Russian agents go to the victim's hotel room and chuck him out the window... The End!
 
Last edited:
Abooga said:
Yes, and it leaves some distinctive marks, which are different to what Epstein had.
Click to expand...

Not conclusive... two different pathologists disagree on this.

ETA: Don't get me wrong... I agree that the circumstances surrounding his death look suspicious, but "looking suspicious" is not evidence, and until I see actual evidence that he was murdered, I will remain skeptical.
 
Last edited:
smartcooky said:
That's not a conspiracy though, that's just an allegation of murder. A conspiracy is "an unlawful, harmful, or evil plan formulated in secret by two or more persons" The murder of Jefferey Epstein would require a number of people to be complicit in planning and carrying out the task.

1. Two or more powerful people to get together and conspire to kill him.

2. Someone with the skills to disable the cameras without being detected, in such a way that it does not look like sabotage, and which will withstand a forensic investigation.

3A. Bribing the guards sufficiently well that they will never reveal what they agreed to do, or

3B. Infiltrating the police station with their own people well ahead of the time the job is to be done.

4. Carrying out the job in such a way that no-one else (i.e those who have not been bribed) catches them in the act.

This is going to involve dozens of people, and the more people involved, the more likely there is to be a leak... Only the two people involved knew Monica Lewinski was giving Bill Clinton blow-jobs in the White House.. and look what happened in that case!

On the other hand, if Putin wants a political opponent offed, he just orders the FSB to carry out the job.... and two burly Russian agents go to the victim's hotel room and chuck him out the window... The End!
Click to expand...

I fail to see mmuch difference between a US government black op and a Russian one, both would involve dozens of people. In Russia it would be easier to pull, but it´s not like the US is a perfect transparent paradise where nothing bad ever happens and everyone is incorruptible and fair...
 
From wikipedia:

When Epstein was placed in the special housing unit, the jail informed the Justice Department that he would have a cellmate, and that a guard would look into the cell every 30 minutes. These procedures were not followed on the night of his death.[290][285][291] On August 9, 2019, Epstein's cellmate was transferred out, but no one took his place.[292] Later in the evening, contrary to the jail's normal procedure, Epstein was not checked every 30 minutes.[290][285][291] The two guards who were assigned to check his jail unit that night fell asleep and did not check on him for about three hours; the guards falsified related records.[285][293] Two cameras in front of Epstein's cell also malfunctioned that night.[16]

If you believe all these to be coincidences, I´d like you to meet my Nigerian friend, he´s a prince and needs some money to get out of the country, then he´ll make you rich.
 
Abooga said:
I fail to see mmuch difference between a US government black op and a Russian one, both would involve dozens of people. In Russia it would be easier to pull, but it´s not like the US is a perfect transparent paradise where nothing bad ever happens and everyone is incorruptible and fair...
Click to expand...


Wait! You think the US Government killed Epstein? When you said "powerful people" earlier, I thought you were talking about about powerful private citizens who stood to face prosecution if Epstein squealed.
 
Abooga said:
From wikipedia:

When Epstein was placed in the special housing unit, the jail informed the Justice Department that he would have a cellmate, and that a guard would look into the cell every 30 minutes. These procedures were not followed on the night of his death.[290][285][291] On August 9, 2019, Epstein's cellmate was transferred out, but no one took his place.[292] Later in the evening, contrary to the jail's normal procedure, Epstein was not checked every 30 minutes.[290][285][291] The two guards who were assigned to check his jail unit that night fell asleep and did not check on him for about three hours; the guards falsified related records.[285][293] Two cameras in front of Epstein's cell also malfunctioned that night.[16]

If you believe all these to be coincidences, I´d like you to meet my Nigerian friend, he´s a prince and needs some money to get out of the country, then he´ll make you rich.
Click to expand...

Forget cponspiracy, it isn't even coincidence...just happenstance....happens all the time. And your bias wants to weave a tapestry of fiction around it.
 
Susheel said:
Forget cponspiracy, it isn't even coincidence...just happenstance....happens all the time. And your bias wants to weave a tapestry of fiction around it.
Click to expand...

Too many coincidences. When his roommate tried to kill him on the 25th of July, the cctv video was erased "by mistake". Another coincidence. ¿or is that prison run by the mentally handicapped?
 
Abooga said:
Too many coincidences. When his roommate tried to kill him on the 25th of July, the cctv video was erased "by mistake". Another coincidence. ¿or is that prison run by the mentally handicapped?
Click to expand...

All that is basically ******** dreamed out of the orifii of conspiuracy purveyors.
 
Abooga said:
From wikipedia:

When Epstein was placed in the special housing unit, the jail informed the Justice Department that he would have a cellmate, and that a guard would look into the cell every 30 minutes. These procedures were not followed on the night of his death.
Click to expand...
OK then, lets read on...


Abooga said:
On August 9, 2019, Epstein's cellmate was transferred out, but no one took his place.
Click to expand...
Do you have evidence that this was arranged by your claimed conspirators?


Abooga said:
Later in the evening, contrary to the jail's normal procedure, Epstein was not checked every 30 minutes.
Click to expand...
Do you have evidence that this was arranged by your claimed conspirators?


Abooga said:
The two guards who were assigned to check his jail unit that night fell asleep and did not check on him for about three hours
Click to expand...
Do you have evidence that the guards were paid/bribed/coerced to look the other way?


Abooga said:
the guards falsified related records.
Click to expand...
And these powerful mastermind conspirators of yours are so devious and so cunning that they allowed the falsity of those records to be detected?


Abooga said:
Two cameras in front of Epstein's cell also malfunctioned that night.
Click to expand...
Do you have evidence that these cameras were sabotaged by those acting on behalf of your claimed conspirators?


Abooga said:
If you believe all these to be coincidences, I´d like you to meet my Nigerian friend, he´s a prince and needs some money to get out of the country, then he´ll make you rich.
Click to expand...
It doesn't matter whether they are co-incidences or not. What matters is, do you have any evidence that any of the items you have mentioned happened as a result of arrangement, bribery or sabotage by people acting on behalf of two or more of your alleged conspirators. If not, then you've got nothing.

Maybe the jail was badly run with poorly maintained equipment, sloppy procedures and slack staff and guards. Many people die in police custody every year, almost always as a result of incompetence or negligence.
 
Last edited:
smartcooky said:
Wait! You think the US Government killed Epstein? When you said "powerful people" earlier, I thought you were talking about about powerful private citizens who stood to face prosecution if Epstein squealed.
Click to expand...

Corruption is rife in governments all over the world, but most people are quite unaware of it. If Epstein had delicate information of some of the most powerful people of the world I´m sure they had ways to off him, and the prison warden would be the ideal person to buy. How otherwise would you make sure to have all these "mistakes" made which led to his death? The cameras, the placing a murderer in his cell for the first attempt etc. The warden is a prime suspect.
 
Abooga said:
Yes, the same as there is no evidence that Putin ordered the murder of his political adversaries. No hard evidence. As it often happen in conspiracies, which by definition strive for secrecy.
Click to expand...


"There's no evidence because it's a conspiracy" is not evidence. It is characteristic of conspiracy theories though.
 
smartcooky said:
OK then, lets read on...



Do you have evidence that this was arranged by your claimed conspirators?



Do you have evidence that this was arranged by your claimed conspirators?



Do you have evidence that the guards were paid/bribed/coerced to look the other way?



And these powerful mastermind conspirators of yours are so devious and so cunning that they allowed the falsity of those records to be detected?



Do you have evidence that these cameras were sabotaged by those acting on behalf of your claimed conspirators?



It doesn't matter whether they are co-incidences or not. What matters is, do you have any evidence that any of the items you have mentioned happened as a result of arrangement, bribery or sabotage by people acting on behalf of two or more of your alleged conspirators. If not, then you've got nothing.

Maybe the jail was badly run with poorly maintained equipment, sloppy procedures and slack staff and guards. Many people die in police custody every year, almost always as a result of incompetence or negligence.
Click to expand...

Do you have evidence that my Nigerian friend is not a prince? Please send the money to account number 555999555...
 
Mojo said:
"There's no evidence because it's a conspiracy" is not evidence. It is characteristic of conspiracy theories though.
Click to expand...

It´s indeed a characteristic of conspiracies to be secretive. By definition. One can´t apply the same rules as, say, finding evidence for the theory of gravity. It reminds me of the way scientists would get fooled by con artists, after all they had evidence in front of their eyes of what was happening... and Randi would have to come and look for the foul play. In Epstein´s death foul play is hardly unlikely, You can´t just say "but where is the evidence" like those naive scientists that were conned by Uri Geller...
 
Abooga said:
It´s indeed a characteristic of conspiracies to be secretive. By definition. One can´t apply the same rules as, say, finding evidence for the theory of gravity.
Click to expand...

Makes it convenient for self-important purveyors of conspiracy theories that allows them to mistake fantasies for fact.

Abooga said:
It reminds me of the way scientists would get fooled by con artists, after all they had evidence in front of their eyes of what was happening... and Randi would have to come and look for the foul play. In Epstein´s death foul play is hardly unlikely, You can´t just say "but where is the evidence" like those naive scientists that were conned by Uri Geller...
Click to expand...

Wait...you are aware that your "scientists" were fooled by the con artist exactly because they did not adhere to the requirements of what would be considered evidence, right? Before you go around casting aspersions, maybe you need to draft your arguments and read through them to make sure you are not inadvertantly arguing against your premise.
 
smartcooky said:
Maybe the jail was badly run with poorly maintained equipment, sloppy procedures and slack staff and guards. Many people die in police custody every year, almost always as a result of incompetence or negligence.
Click to expand...
Something smells here. Is it just the normal stench of incompetence and negligence, or something else? I'm hoping it's the former, because then something might get done about it.

Abooga said:
Well, you could have working CCTV cameras, guards checking every half hour, like the law mandates... not put him in the same cell with another violent inmate who could kill him, like the one who tried... but they did the opposite of these three things.
Click to expand...
No, you don't understand. You see, they do that stuff all the time, not just with high-profile inmates who could take a lot of people down with them if it got to trial.

As smartcooky said, many people die in police custody every year. Once we see the records showing that this particular prison regularly achieves "a perfect storm of screw-ups" as William Barr described it, we can all relax.
 
Susheel said:
Makes it convenient for self-important purveyors of conspiracy theories that allows them to mistake fantasies for fact.



Wait...you are aware that your "scientists" were fooled by the con artist exactly because they did not adhere to the requirements of what would be considered evidence, right? Before you go around casting aspersions, maybe you need to draft your arguments and read through them to make sure you are not inadvertantly arguing against your premise.
Click to expand...

No, a con artist can fool a normal scientific test. Science is normally done in a way in which you don´t expect, for example gravity to be trying to deceive you, lab rats are supposed to be the ones tested, not the other way around, a la " Hitchhikers to the Galaxy" ... etc. Randi used to improve on the "normal" testing by eliminating the possibility of foul play. The only similarity between Randi´s methods and normal science is in the way he tested to avoid unconscious bias, which was sometimes at play (dowsing for example), but we´re talking about foul play here.
 
There are certainly questions that need answering about Epstein's death, but for my money, one of them is, 'If Epstein was murdered in prison, why didn't Maxwell suffer a nasty accident before her trial?'
 
While the fact that "Epstein Didn't Kill Himself" was already meme-status before Epstein actually killed himself is at least a little odd, like all conspiracy theories it just doesn't make sense.

Why then? Why only after he was back in the news and his death was guaranteed to arouse suspicion? Why didn't the New World Order Rand Corporation Grey Aliens whoever just arraign for Epstein to slip in the shower or have a traffic accident on a busy news day so it got buried on page 10 at any point in the decade between him being in the news? Why wait until every body is talking about someone to kill them?
 
Abooga, your speculation just doesn't convince me. It's certainly plausible, up to a point. It's the kind of thing we'd certainly expect from a proper conspiracy of the rich and powerful to cover up their evil deeds. But there's no smoking gun. There's no clear link between hypothetical beneficiaries and known capabilities. The chain of evidence that establishes method and opportunity simply does not exist. If you believe he was killed, fine. I won't attempt to convince you otherwise - mainly because I don't know, one way or the other. But I think you are wrong to chastise people who don't share your belief.

I think if you are arguing in good faith, you have to admit that agnosticism is a reasonable position to take based on the evidence currently available.
 
Abooga said:
It´s indeed a characteristic of conspiracies to be secretive.
Click to expand...


That isn't what I said. I said that it is a characteristic of conspiracy theories that a lack of evidence is presented as a characteristic of conspiracies, and therefore at least consistent with the conspiracy theory.
 
Abooga said:
Well, you could have working CCTV cameras, guards checking every half hour, like the law mandates... not put him in the same cell with another violent inmate who could kill him, like the one who tried... but they did the opposite of these three things. If I had to put a score to conspiracy theories, flat earth would fall in the most implausible side of the spectrum, and the murder of Epstein in the most plausible side...
Click to expand...


What evidence do you have that Epstein was murdered?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom