Upchurch
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Critical thinking: How do you know trans women are harassing lesbians?
Posted By: jimbob
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Cont: Transwomen are not women part XII (also merged)
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Critical thinking: How do you know trans women are harassing lesbians?
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
Perhaps you could start a thread about that?
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
You were making an argument from "linguistic sense" but none of those terms are remotely confusing, contradictory, or nonsensical.
Hopefully they have more persuasive arguments than you do. I'm guessing, though, that they will pull the same move you did at #203 and declare that any failure to drop the old meanings in favor of the new ones will be condemned as bigotry.
It's basically linguistic presciptivism, but with more moral grandstanding.
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Cat Not Included
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This seems like "is it bigotry" is about as constructive as "is it art"? Does it matter? Your reasons for wanting to not date someone who is Jewish/white/Republican/trans/whatever may or not may not be bigotry, but as dating is an incredibly personal choice and is far different from hiring a person, selling property to them, or providing them medical care. Nobody has an obligation to be romatically/sexually involved with any one else, and literally no reason is too small not to be a valid reason to not be interested in them. You've got a chance to date Chris Evans but he's way too Marvel for you and you only like DC, I mean, you're an idiot, but that's absolutely your choice to be an idiot.
But is there any value to pondering whether its "bigotry" or not? And is anyone who's not massively anti-trans trying to rile people up saying it "is" bigotry for a woman not to want to date a trans woman? I mean, probably someone, somewhere thinks that. Someone somewhere thinks Star Wars eps 1-3 have a wonderful love story between Padme and Anakin. Why do we care what they think?
But is there any value to pondering whether its "bigotry" or not? And is anyone who's not massively anti-trans trying to rile people up saying it "is" bigotry for a woman not to want to date a trans woman? I mean, probably someone, somewhere thinks that. Someone somewhere thinks Star Wars eps 1-3 have a wonderful love story between Padme and Anakin. Why do we care what they think?
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
Currently in Australia, you have the case of Sall Grover, who set up a female-only social network and dating/networking app called Giggle, but is being sued by a trans woman called Roxanne Tickle (possibly not their real name) because the app rejected them due to their appearing to be male.
This gives rise to the rather delightful-sounding legal case Tickle v Giggle.
Lesbians are saying that when they look at lesbian dating apps they are finding lots of people who appear to be men, and that's not what they want to see. If you go to a dating app for [insert characteristic X here] and find a load of people without [characteristic X] is it bigoted to complain about that?
This gives rise to the rather delightful-sounding legal case Tickle v Giggle.
Lesbians are saying that when they look at lesbian dating apps they are finding lots of people who appear to be men, and that's not what they want to see. If you go to a dating app for [insert characteristic X here] and find a load of people without [characteristic X] is it bigoted to complain about that?
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
It certainly seems to fit the dictionary definition as a "prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group," where prejudice consists in prejudging people (e.g. males) and finding them undesirable on those grounds, without bothering to look any deeper. That sort of prejudice abounds on dating apps, though, since they are often designed to give users a handful of shallow characteristics to select from and make rapid decisions. People are often rejected just for being ugly, short, or old.
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arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
You're welcome to look them up to see if anyone has published better arguments. That's just the top four links from my google search, by the way, a search which you are more than capable of doing yourself.
Maybe. Language matters, as I keep saying. Trans people and organisations have asked me to refer to them in this way and I see no cost in doing so.
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
The definition I see when I google is:
"obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group."
You missed out the qualifier "obstinate or unreasonable".
I think we've hit one of those things where internet and real life are different.
Okay in the real world if someone goes "Wanna have sex?" and you go "No" you don't generally have to follow up with a 50 Slide Power Point Presentation outlining why. People don't have to justify themselves in the moment to anywhere near that degree and, to talk a deep breath of the real air people, someone look me in the eye where and tell me the number of cases of a someone being turned down for sex because they are transgender and that not being 100% completely obvious to everyone involved as the reason and doesn't need to be spelled out is anything but "statistically never."
If you don't want to have sex with someone you just say you don't want to have sex with them. If they demand an answer and don't drop it (how functionally in the real world that would even work aside) and they get an answer they don't like, that's on them.
I'm struggling to imagine a realistic scenario where this is the problem in the sense the OP is presenting it.
Okay. So the narrative is the woke college Tumblr transgender activist are... what? What exactly? Going to force us to have sex with them as if we are all literal genie and they can trap us in a "You say you're sexually attracted to women, I define as a woman, ergo you have to sleep with me" and then we have to go "Damn! I fell right into that one!"
Okay in the real world if someone goes "Wanna have sex?" and you go "No" you don't generally have to follow up with a 50 Slide Power Point Presentation outlining why. People don't have to justify themselves in the moment to anywhere near that degree and, to talk a deep breath of the real air people, someone look me in the eye where and tell me the number of cases of a someone being turned down for sex because they are transgender and that not being 100% completely obvious to everyone involved as the reason and doesn't need to be spelled out is anything but "statistically never."
If you don't want to have sex with someone you just say you don't want to have sex with them. If they demand an answer and don't drop it (how functionally in the real world that would even work aside) and they get an answer they don't like, that's on them.
I'm struggling to imagine a realistic scenario where this is the problem in the sense the OP is presenting it.
Okay. So the narrative is the woke college Tumblr transgender activist are... what? What exactly? Going to force us to have sex with them as if we are all literal genie and they can trap us in a "You say you're sexually attracted to women, I define as a woman, ergo you have to sleep with me" and then we have to go "Damn! I fell right into that one!"
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Given Australian courts’ reluctance to distinguish gender and sex, or even define Man and Woman I expect the verdict will go along the lines “if someone says they are a woman they can use the dating site”. It will be another setback for lesbian and bi women.
tyr_13
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I can think of two broad scenarios where the 'problem' presents itself:
1. A transgender person complains about personal difficulty dating and that is, either correctly or incorrectly, interpreted as them claiming they're calling people bigots for not wanting to do the sex with them.
2. An anti-trans activist uses their own personal preferences to plate the turd; claiming their other bigoted actions and arguments are actually just people engaged in lesbian erasure. It's a simple deflections which really does boil down to 'genitals I don't want to sex are not really women, and if you disagree you're trying to get me raped' as if it were not a transparent rationalization at best and calculated dishonesty at worst.
Now having spent a lot of time with a lot of transgender people, my personal observation is the people declaring, fully out of the blue, that they wouldn't sleep with a transgender person is way more common. Way more. In the, "Person: Some Rando: I WOULD NEVER SLEEP WITH A TRANS WOMAN! Person: Sir, this is a Wendy's" Construction.
EDIT: I can't be the only one who noticed that the cited survey where it's claimed lesbians as a group don't think of trans women as women, even leaving aside the 'want to make sex with /= a woman', says that a 'small minority' of lesbians would have sex with a trans woman when that 'small minority' is 'almost one in three'.
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Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
Careful. I've been told we're not supposed to bring the real world into this discussion.
Skeptic Ginger
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You are ignoring the point a number of us made:
Bigotry and who one is attracted to for sex or the purposes of dating are 2 separate things.
Stop conflating them and we can move this discussion forward or be done with it.
Skeptic Ginger
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Then that's one more thing on the list as to why I don't want to have sex with them ... too pushy.Joe said:
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
I disagree. Seems to me the process of initial attraction is going to involve a large number of subconscious snap judgements, some of which may be made along lines of (apparent) class, race, sex, age, religion, handicap status, etc.
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Thank you.
The OP assumes that one must accept any sexual advance if they're a compatible orientation.
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
Some lesbians say they are increasingly being pressured and coerced into accepting trans women as partners - then shunned and even threatened for speaking out.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385
Weirdly, this article has its own Wikipedia page, which is a bit longer than the article itself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/"We're_being_pressured_into_sex_by_some_trans_women"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385
Weirdly, this article has its own Wikipedia page, which is a bit longer than the article itself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/"We're_being_pressured_into_sex_by_some_trans_women"
Skeptic Ginger
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So I'm an ageist then because I think that wrinkled old Rupert Murdoch is physically unattractive?
Am I a religious bigot because I think those men bowing their heads over and over against the wailing wall are idiots even if I have nothing against anyone else of the Jewish faith, like say Jon Stewart?
Sorry, it's not an all of your snap judgements or none phenomena.
Premise 1: Some people are dicks
Premise 2: Transgendered humans are people
Conclusion : Some transgendered humans are dicks
Binary-gendered can hardly claim sole ownership to such quality.
I've merged the Bigotry for lesbians to reject transwomen? thread with this one.
As an aside, please try to be vaguely civil to each other
As an aside, please try to be vaguely civil to each other
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic Posted By: jimbob
Why? Sex is one area where what is in someone's underwear is relevant. If someone doesn't have the genital configuration you want in a sexual partner it doesn't matter whether they are male or female they aren't going to do it for you.
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But it does if you are considering them in terms of having sex with them. Many people don't want only non-sexual relationships. Even if they don't start a relationship with sex the idea it will lead to sex is part of having a relationship for them.
So it seems even a reasonable objection is bigotry if a person is obstinate and refuses to back down from their position.
Do you really not know what the word means?
Hercules56
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It is not bigotry to refuse to date transwomen.
Full stop
Full stop
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
100%
I refuse to date men.... must be gender discrimination
I refuse to date 14 year olds.... must be age discrimination
Formalize that conclusion into logical steps and justify it if it is "full stop" - the only correct conclusion can be "It can be bigotry to refuse to date a trans woman, or it might not be"
Unless you claim mind-reading superpowers.
Or sexual preference.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Well, that would apply to dating a transwoman as well, because I regard any person with a prick between their legs as a man!
That seems perfectly reasonable, and I'm sure if you were pressured to change your mind you would most obstinately refuse. So under the quoted definition above that bigotry is :-
"obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group."
You would by "stubbornly refusing to change one's opinion or chosen course of action, despite attempts to persuade one to do so."
be classed as bigoted.
But then again so would I and so would most males, so we've got that going for us.
Helen Joyce
Helen Joyce deserves her own thread but I am interested because in this interview she says exactly verbatim what I wish I had said.
LondonJohn calls her a sick bigot on this thread, and I hope he listens to the interview right through to point to times on the interview where she deserves his descriptor.
I am in the strict liability camp where I now conclude everything is wrong, and needs an immediate reverse before one more medication or operation happens.
Here is the you tube interview from 4 months ago. A bonus is that these guys do comedy too, and the intermissions are quite comedic.
https://youtu.be/TTZsfk6Ms6s
(Spoiler alert she does not hold the view that trans women are women)
Helen Joyce deserves her own thread but I am interested because in this interview she says exactly verbatim what I wish I had said.
LondonJohn calls her a sick bigot on this thread, and I hope he listens to the interview right through to point to times on the interview where she deserves his descriptor.
I am in the strict liability camp where I now conclude everything is wrong, and needs an immediate reverse before one more medication or operation happens.
Here is the you tube interview from 4 months ago. A bonus is that these guys do comedy too, and the intermissions are quite comedic.
https://youtu.be/TTZsfk6Ms6s
(Spoiler alert she does not hold the view that trans women are women)
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LondonJohn
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Helen Joyce most certainly does not "deserve her own thread". Toxic bigots such as she do not deserve any of the oxygen of publicity.
(PS I would illustrate the paucity of your argument about Joyce - "Oh she says some moderate stuff too" - by pointing out that The Yorkshire Ripper was by all accounts a very pleasant family man aside from those occasions when he wasn't out killing women.)
(PS I would illustrate the paucity of your argument about Joyce - "Oh she says some moderate stuff too" - by pointing out that The Yorkshire Ripper was by all accounts a very pleasant family man aside from those occasions when he wasn't out killing women.)
Not swallowing the kook-aid peddled by Mermaids and GLAAD does not make one a toxic bigot.
I think this thread would be much better if you didn’t throw around “bigot” “transphobe” and “TERF” which such abandon at those who disagree with you. It looks like classic trolling to me.
Hercules56
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What if they have gone through thorough physical and hormonal transition? Is it still acceptable to reject them as not being female?
Your (LJ) descriptor was sick bigot, which I would allow you might resile from because she is obviously not sick.
Toxic is a fair way to imagine any view that appears to be irreconcilable with common sense, but her views appear to be steeped in common sense to me and other ex lefties I know well.
Toxic is a fair way to imagine any view that appears to be irreconcilable with common sense, but her views appear to be steeped in common sense to me and other ex lefties I know well.
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That's not the argument he made. He asked you to point out what she that makes her a 'sick bigot'. Which of course, you won't be able to do, without lies and distortions. Like pretending that wanting to minimise the number of people who medically transition for the wrong reasons due to the influence of activists and later regret it and need accommodation to cope in a society that recognises the reality of biological sex = 'wanting to eliminate trans people' or some such nonsense.
It's what people do when they have no argument (as well as trying to make people too frightened to say what they think through fear of punitive consequences).
TurkeysGhost
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In the case of these dating apps, it's even less of an issue. Generally the way these things work is that users can't talk to one another unless both have already signaled interest in eachother's profile. If this Giggle app works anything like Tinder or the other mainstream apps, the solution for lesbians who don't want to date transwomen is to never swipe right on trans women, and the trans women will never even know that the rejection even occurred.
The fact that this sorting is happening behind the scenes may well be the objection. I imagine there's more than a few TERFs miffed by missing an opportunity to openly reject trans women with an insult.
ponderingturtle
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So if the correlary is true then you would date a trans man, because to you he is a woman.
Hercules56
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If there was no surgery or hormone therapy, i would consider dating a transman, as they are physically still women.
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