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Old 18th April 2005, 09:28 AM   #1
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Aztec Sun Stone/Nazca Lines Connection ??

I enjoyed reading some of the posts on the JREF forum and thought I would join to discuss with you a theory of mine for some critical analysis.

I wanted to take another independent look at the Aztec Calendar. Although I have my own interpretation of the sun stone I would like to hear your views for 2 reasons, one, to get to know you better and also because someone might be able to provide information that is not available on the web.

Here is a graphical picture of the sun stone..


What does it represent ?
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Old 18th April 2005, 09:33 AM   #2
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Why, it is a calendar!




... The title of the thread baffled me.
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Old 18th April 2005, 09:40 AM   #3
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Where do the Nazca Lines enter the picture?
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Old 18th April 2005, 09:46 AM   #4
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Hello

I believe the interpretation is that it represents a 260 day calendar. The figure in the middle is said to represent the Sun God. Hence the naming of it as a Sun Stone.

I was going to lead to the Nazca Lines later, if that's okay ??

But just as a clue I will post this picture :

It's the image of a pelican from the Nazca Plain ?
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Old 18th April 2005, 09:56 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seren
I believe the interpretation is that it represents a 260 day calendar. The figure in the middle is said to represent the Sun God. Hence the naming of it as a Sun Stone.

I was going to lead to the Nazca Lines later, if that's okay ??
No, it's not okay. If you have something you want to say, say it. Don't play games.

Quote:
Originally posted by Seren
But just as a clue I will post this picture :
No, no clues. No hints. No "let's see if Seren can get a lot of people to guess".

Say what you have to say. State your case. Present your evidence. Let's see if it holds up to scrutiny.
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Old 18th April 2005, 10:06 AM   #6
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Very cordially.

Before we go any further, the "Piedra del Sol" or "Calendario Azteca" is a stone, big and grey (yes, I have seen in myself). No colors. Its on display at the Museo Nacional de AntropologĂ_a es Historia, in Mexico city (and which happens to have an ugly website and so I won't provide an useless link).

Now, Here is another page with detail of the sun at the center. Important differences with your illustration are discerned quite easily.

While I don't readily discard that there may be a connection between those cultures, I suggest that we walk in solid ground.
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Old 18th April 2005, 10:18 AM   #7
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And Here is another photograph, bigger, slow and NOT color-corrected (apparently shot under tungsten light with daylight film).

This seems like the actual perspective for the audience at the museum.

FWIW


ETA: just look at the "boxes" around the center - absolutely no correlation.
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Old 18th April 2005, 10:18 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chupacabras
While I don't readily discard that there may be a connection between those cultures, I suggest that we walk in solid ground.
I've tried to find a good photo of the Nazca "pelican", but so far, no luck.

I agree that we should not work from copies, when we can work from originals.
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Old 18th April 2005, 02:42 PM   #9
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Thanks for the replies.

Quote:
No, it's not okay. If you have something you want to say, say it. Don't play games.
I understand. I need to prepare the work into a reasonable format to be put to a test, then I'll post it tomorrow in one shot.

I used the color formatted drawing as it will aid in refering to parts of the calendar. But I agree, we should also use the original to validate any differences.

The reason I posted the pelican is that I don't think it's a pelican. It seems to be a man with his tongue out similar to the figure at the centre of the Aztec calendar and also of the 2 heads at the bottom which meet. I'll go into details tomorrow.
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Old 18th April 2005, 11:05 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seren
But I agree, we should also use the original to validate any differences.
No, don't bother with the copies. Use the originals.
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Old 19th April 2005, 06:39 AM   #11
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I'll use the original from the link you posted, with thanks.

Will post it late today, hopefully!!
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Old 19th April 2005, 10:10 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seren
Thanks for the replies.



I understand. I need to prepare the work into a reasonable format to be put to a test, then I'll post it tomorrow in one shot.

I used the color formatted drawing as it will aid in refering to parts of the calendar. But I agree, we should also use the original to validate any differences.

The reason I posted the pelican is that I don't think it's a pelican. It seems to be a man with his tongue out similar to the figure at the centre of the Aztec calendar and also of the 2 heads at the bottom which meet. I'll go into details tomorrow.
Looks like a pelican to me.
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Old 19th April 2005, 03:33 PM   #13
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The drawing was most likely done from left to right, rather than right to left. Here is why
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Old 19th April 2005, 03:37 PM   #14
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Why do I see that leads me to believe that it was drawn the direction I said?
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Old 19th April 2005, 03:39 PM   #15
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Ach. Nevermind. I think I am 'reaching' on this one.

But it appears that the drawing is of a bird that has crash landed and this may have some significance.
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Old 20th April 2005, 05:56 AM   #16
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I believe that the Aztec Calendar shows the movement of the Milky Way through the constellations.

According to the Inca cosmology, 2 great rivers of the inca universe were joined at the edge of the known universe in the waters of a great cosmic sea which encircled the earth. The Milky Way was thought to have its source in the cosmic sea from which it took water into the sky. As the Milky Way passed through the sky at night, it deposited moisture in the sky which fell to the earth in the form of rain.

I found that when I applied Inca Astronomy and myth to the Aztec Calendar it seemed to fit.

I found some good references on the following site :

http://realmagick.com/articles/54/2154.html

Quote:
The Incas used the same system of astronomy in around 1432 to predict the inevitable destruction of the entire Andean civilisation and its religion within five generations, as the sun would no longer appear to touch the Milky Way when it rose at the solstices. Despite attempts to avert this disaster, the stars cannot be changed, and sure enough, in 1532, at the December solstice (Capricorn), the sun was seen to rise alongside, but not touching, the Milky Way, closing the ´gate´´ to the land of the dead and signifying the end of Andean Civilization.
So Cancer and Capricorn are the solstice constellations and it´s here that the rising sun is seen to touch the Milky Way, which is known as ´Mayu´or ´River´´.

Quote:
To the human observer, without the use of technology, the precsession of the equinoxes can onlky be observed as a change in the orientatioin of the stars as viewed from earth.
I believe that these ancient people experienced El Nino and attributed this to be changes in precession of the equinoxes which were observable from how the Milky Way passed through the constellations and whether or not it touched the sun at the solstices.

If you look on the original calendar that I posted above. You will see that figure at the center has its tongue out to touch the circle which I believe represents the sun. If you follow it downwards you will then see it passes between the 2 heads.

On the diagram I posted there is a single circle which I’ve indicated in yellow for the winter solstice. Going east and west from the centre you will see two sepent heads with yellow circles above and below them. I think this represents the parts when the sun passes through the milky way between 2 constellations, like gateways.

I will post the details of the glyphs next and then how I think it all links to the Nazca Lines. Thanks for your patience and comments. I'll write the next part now.

P.S. I too thought it was a pelican.
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Old 20th April 2005, 06:07 AM   #17
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You're aware that it's a 200 foot wide pattern in a rock desert and not a "drawing", right?
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Old 20th April 2005, 08:50 AM   #18
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My theory is that most ancient rock carvings were done by small boys who should have been watching sheep. The cup and ring markings common on Scottish rocks for example, are strangely like the holes we used to carve in the wall of the local public baths while waiting to get in on Saturday mornings.
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Old 20th April 2005, 09:07 AM   #19
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The Nazca lines are patterns in the dessert.

I have a celestial globe in front of me. I would like to refer to it to explain why there are arrows pointing from the centre to the serpent moving around the outside of the calendar.



Refering to the diagram I posted a link to :

G11 = Dog
G10 = Monkey

The red arrow pointing downwards passes between the heads of the 2 serpents, the arrow is leading from the Dog and the Monkey.

I believe this is the Winter Solstice. I think the monkey represents the constellation of Aquarius and Capricorn (Will explain in the next section on the Nazca Lines) and the Dog represents Canis Major.
On the celestial globe, at the winter solstice sunrise, the sun rises in the constelation Aquarius/Capricorn (Ancient times) and touches the milky way. At the same time on the opposite horizon the constellation of Canis Major is setting next to the Milky Way, also touching it.
The 2 serpents which meet at the bottom have fluid coming from their mouths. This is the waters or rain being deposited over the Andes beginning in December/January ?? (Needs verfying).
These 2 serpents are being held at the top of the Aztec Calendar by the "Serpent Holder". Again, refer to your celestial globe, here you will see the Milky Way appears to Spilt into 2, held together by the Ophiuchus the Serpent Holder.

Note : the red arrows lead from 2 inner picture glyphs.
also note : the blue arrows only lead from one picture glyph.

The Red arrow facing West is a representation of a Gateway. Where the sun passes through the Milky Way in between to ecliptic constellations.

G16 : Scorpio
G15 : Sagitarius

Quote:
the constellation which we know as scorpious was considered by the incas to represent a great serpent (the tail of scorpious) which was changing into a condor (the head of scorpius)
Quote:
Across five continents, from all around the world we have myths mentioning an underworld or land of the dead, with an entrace along the annual path of the Sun where it crosses one branch of the Milkly Way. This entrance or gate (Helgrind in Norse mythlogy) lies between the constellations of Scopius and Sagittarius, and marks the centre of our galaxy. The Roman writer Virgil said that this land was guarded by scorpion men (scorpius=, and the medieval Italian poet Dante said that this land was gaurded by horse men, called Centaurs (Sagittarius)
The inner circle shows the sun being swallowed by the serpent, the sun represented by the yellow circle above and below.

On the opposite side, facing east we have another gateway between :

G6 : Vulture
G5 : Eagle

I think the Eagle represents Cancer and the vulture Orion or Taurus. Again if you look at the celestial globe you will notice that it is here that the sun passes through the Milky Way on it's yearly path.
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Old 20th April 2005, 09:14 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seren
The Nazca lines are patterns in the dessert.
Shouldn't this be in the "So what's the wierdest thing you ever found in your food?" thread?
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Old 20th April 2005, 09:26 AM   #21
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Thanks !! That was good !! My mistake.
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Old 20th April 2005, 09:31 AM   #22
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In the NW corner there is a blue arrow leading from the picture glyph of a house.

G18 = House

Quote:
One of the most important constellations of the Incas was the cluster of stars known to us as the Pleiades, in the constellation of Taurus. the pleiades were considered to be a "Storehouse" (colca), and they were observed regularly to help determine the times of planting and harvesting crops
If you look on the celestial globe you will notice that a small part of the milky way appears to be seperated from the whole. The part lies behind the constellation of Pleiades. Like a seperate store house.
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Old 20th April 2005, 09:46 AM   #23
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In the SE corner, there is a picture glyph of "Cane" pointing out to the milky Way.

G8 = Cane or Reed

It's half way between the Solstices. If you look on the Celestial globe you will notice that between the 2 solstices the Milky pay passes through the constellation of "Musca" at it's Zenith.

I think Mosquito comes from Musca. And there is an association with Sugar Cane and Mosquitos.
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Old 20th April 2005, 10:17 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seren
It's half way between the Solstices. If you look on the Celestial globe you will notice that between the 2 solstices the Milky pay passes through the constellation of "Musca" at it's Zenith.

I think Mosquito comes from Musca. And there is an association with Sugar Cane and Mosquitos.
You might want to learn a bit about how constellations are named before you create this theory of yours.

"Musca" is a fly, not mosquito. And the constellation Musca is not an ancient invention, but a rather new one:

Quote:
Musca is an easy constellation to find and it lies south of the Southern Cross. It was originally described by Johann Bayer in his 1603 star atlas as Apis the Bee. Later on, Edmond Halley called it Musca Apis, the Fly Bee, then Nicolas-Louis de Lacille named it Musca Australis, the Southern Fly to avoid it being confused with the fly on the back of Aries, the Ram. Now that the northern fly id no longer recognised as a constellation, the Southern Fly is known simply as Musca.
Source
Do you have any evidence that this constellation was called anything remotely like a mosquito by either the Aztecs or the Incas?

Because if you don't....you got a problem.
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Old 20th April 2005, 11:12 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seren
I think Mosquito comes from Musca. And there is an association with Sugar Cane and Mosquitos.

Umm no, never heard of the place.

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Old 20th April 2005, 12:38 PM   #26
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Quote:
Do you have any evidence that this constellation was called anything remotely like a mosquito by either the Aztecs or the Incas?
Thanks for the info. The reason I called it a mosquito was because of the image of the Mosquito found on the Nazca Plain :





The first image is a mosqiuto, in fact, most if not all of the images represent constellations. I'll prepare a list and post.
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Old 20th April 2005, 12:49 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seren
The first image is a mosqiuto
Do you know this for a fact, or is it your interpretation?

Quote:
Originally posted by Seren
in fact, most if not all of the images represent constellations.
Do you know this for a fact, or is it your interpretation?

Don't forget to include where North is, when you post your list of constellations. If just one of them doesn't have the same orientation as in real life, your whole theory collapses.
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Old 20th April 2005, 01:08 PM   #28
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Quote:
Do you know this for a fact, or is it your interpretation?
It's my interpretation. Let me show you some more. I'm not sure, just that I see these patterns.

Quote:
Don't forget to include where North is, when you post your list of constellations. If just one of them doesn't have the same orientation as in real life, your whole theory collapses.
I'll include the North but I'm not sure the images are a direct reflection of what was going on above. In fact, I have 2 theories about this, I'll post you them soon when I've put them into coherent sentences.

Here is a map of the Nazca Images with a North Sign. The Mosquito is image 5.



Look at the image below :



It is said that a cold current from the antarctic cools the air and squeezes almost all of the moisture out of the air above the Andes, so it's mostly a desert from chile to Ecuador.

I think this occurs around the December solstice. I think the monkey is Aquarius and the mountains underneath are a representation of capricorn.

Capricorn :


Aquarius :


I believe this maybe why Aquarius is called the Water Bearer yet is an Air sign. Capricorn represents the mountain Goat.

I see your Point about these being modern constellations, I'm wondering whether similar patterns might have been used before.
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Old 20th April 2005, 01:22 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seren
It's my interpretation.

I'm not sure...

I'm not sure...

It is said that...

I think...

I think...

I believe...

I'm wondering...
Can you spot a pattern here? I sure can.

Quote:
Originally posted by Seren
In fact, I have 2 theories about this, I'll post you them soon when I've put them into coherent sentences.
Haven't you thought this through yet?? Don't you even know what it is you are arguing??
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Old 20th April 2005, 01:23 PM   #30
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Most of the images on the Nazca Plain can also be found on the Aztec Calender :

Here's a list. Refer to the numbers in the map I posted for the images.

The left column represents the glyph found on the Aztec Calendar.

Crocodile = Image 7
Wind = ?? (maybe image 22) Hummingbirds and wind
Underworld, House = ??
Ripeness, Lizzard = Iguana (Not on map posted)
Snake = Image 4
Death = Image 19
Deer = Image 25
Rabbit = Image 9
Water = Image 1
Dog = image 13
Monkey = Image 24
Grass = Image 8
Cane = Image 5
Jaguar = ??
Eagle = Image 20
Owl, Vulture = Image 14
Movement, Earthquake = Image 18
Knife, Flint = Image 2
Rain = Image 6
Lord, Flower = Image 12
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Old 20th April 2005, 01:28 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seren
Most of the images on the Nazca Plain can also be found on the Aztec Calender :
According to you, yes. You have to prove it, though.

Quote:
Originally posted by Seren
The left column represents the glyph found on the Aztec Calendar.
I'm sorry, but I don't see it. Now, what?
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Old 20th April 2005, 01:29 PM   #32
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Quote:
Haven't you thought this through yet?? Don't you even know what it is you are arguing??
I'm not arguing. I'm posting the answer for you to find flaws. That's the whole point !!! Then I will use your critical analysis to eliminate ideas or improve them !! With thanks.

I'm using think, I believe, I was wondering because I'm still not sure. There are missing parts which I was hoping someone might fill.
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Old 20th April 2005, 01:34 PM   #33
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Quote:
I'm sorry, but I don't see it. Now, what?
Look at the Aztec Calendar. Check the bottom two glyphs. It's a monkey and a dog. The link for the monkey comes from the Nazca Plain.

Nazca Image :

Could it be Canis Major ?
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Old 20th April 2005, 01:37 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seren
I'm not arguing. I'm posting the answer for you to find flaws. That's the whole point !!! Then I will use your critical analysis to eliminate ideas or improve them !! With thanks.

I'm using think, I believe, I was wondering because I'm still not sure. There are missing parts which I was hoping someone might fill.
So far, there are only missing parts.

Get back when you have thought this through, OK?
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Old 20th April 2005, 01:39 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seren
Could it be Canis Major ?
No. The legs and tail are wrong.

Now, what?
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Old 20th April 2005, 01:44 PM   #36
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Check out no.16.on the plan.
Equuleus & Delphinius


Image 20 :



Compare it with a better image :


Notice how the Phoenix and the dog are the same direction.
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Old 20th April 2005, 01:56 PM   #37
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It's all about Moisture in the Air. This is about the Milky Way and how it's brings that moisture to the desert from the Seas.

According to the Inca cosmology, 2 great rivers of the inca universe were joined at the edge of the known universe in the waters of a great cosmic sea which encircled the earth. The Milky Way was thought to have its source in the cosmic sea from which it took water into the sky. As the Milky Way passed through the sky at night, it deposited moisture in the sky which fell to the earth in the form of rain

This is a section form this month's UK New scientist :

The New Scientist, April 16th 2005, Pyramids of Dew. P.52

Quote:
The ponds on the downs of South-East England…..were artfully constructed to condense moisture from the air. Beneath their clay bottoms, a layer of straw insulated the water, keeping it colder than the soil at night, and above the clay, a layer of stones ensured that the pond shed heat quickly, lowering the temperature further.
Quote:
Moisture in the air is the great untapped water resource. The atmosphere contains around 13,000 cubic kilometers of water vapour at any one time, six times as much as in all the worlds rivers.
Quote:
Make rain by ionizing the air.
Quote:
On the ridge in the rainless Atacama desert in Northern Chile, you can still see the tattered remains of large sheets of plastic mesh that once harvested water from the fogs that roll in from the Pacific Ocean. This is recent history…
In the 1990’s each 12 by 3 metre net was catching an average of 150 litres a day
Quote:
The Ultimate goal is still to find a sure-fire way to harvest that moisture by cooling the air to make dew.
Quote:
Each night the stones lost heat and cooled the sea breezes blowing through the loosely packed stones sufficiently to cause moisture to condense. In the past, this flow of water trickling from the stones had filled networks of pottery pipes and several dozen reservoirs that provide water for the town.

Each of the glyphs on the Nazca Plain represents an image which has an association with moisture.

The images are all one continous line. I think that in ancient times the Incas divided themselves into tribes each representing a different constellation. These tribes each had an area of the Nazca Plain where they would collect the water which was taken from the cool sea breeze by the rising heat from the Stones which are scattered across the plain. This water would then be fed along pipes to bore holes to be collected.
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Old 20th April 2005, 10:14 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seren
Compare it with a better image :
No, no, no. Not copies. Real images.

Quote:
Originally posted by Seren
Notice how the Phoenix and the dog are the same direction.
Depends entirely where you stand.
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Old 20th April 2005, 10:16 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seren
These tribes each had an area of the Nazca Plain where they would collect the water which was taken from the cool sea breeze by the rising heat from the Stones which are scattered across the plain. This water would then be fed along pipes to bore holes to be collected.
Eh......how? What pipes? Where are they? The lines are made by scraping a thin - and I mean thin - layer of rocks and pebbles away from the stony ground.

Do you know why it is called the Nazca desert?
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Old 20th April 2005, 10:54 PM   #40
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I'm curious, are you gong to show how the Nazcas influenced the Aztecs and Incas? Pay particular attention to point out how their knowledge was kept for the several hundred years between the end of the Nazca culture and the beginning of the Inca culture. Oh, and can both the Aztecs in the Northern hemisphere and the Nazcas and Incas in the Southern hemisphere both see all the constellations you are pointing to?
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