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Old 23rd May 2005, 11:38 AM   #121
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Originally posted by LAL
Gosh, what a boon for Manitoba, should confirmation come from there.
But why west? There may be some recent activity in Georgia. (One of the compelling casts came from near Elkins Creek.) That would be a lot closer for me.
OK, if you find something in Pike County that's covered with hair and walks on two legs, it's not Bigfoot. It's one of the local ostensibly human residents. You'll notice the difference because the howling noise it makes will sound suspiciously like "fergit HELL" and "go home, yankee!"

(I kid because I love--I used to play in a bluegrass band based out of that area.)
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Old 23rd May 2005, 11:48 AM   #122
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Originally posted by Cleon
Not to be rude, but I don't really have the time (or the energy) to go through every Bigfoot hoax over the past 50 years. You yourself are aware of it; Wallace was mentioned earlier in this thread, you mentioned a half-assed drunken attempt a couple posts ago. There's a lot of fakery out there. Why is it necessary to through it individually?

I back up my claims and I expect the same (silly of me, I know). How about giving me a rough idea of how many there have been over the last fifty years? I don't have much time or energy either, but I look at both sides.
Wallace had a lively souvenir business going and faked some tracks for the benefit of tourists. He didn't hoax anything important and never claimed he did. Green was on to him as early as '65.

The Pennsylvania hoax didn't fool anyone for long.

My point is that though there have been some hoaxes (Ivan Marx comes to mind), they've been amateurish and easily exposed. Even a professional hoax (snowwalker) was exposed by Dr. Meldrum, who wrote me, "Exposing hoaxes is as much a part of this effort as establishing the credibility of other evidence."
They don't begin to account for the thousands of sightings and track events, and those go back much further than the last fifty years.
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Old 23rd May 2005, 11:55 AM   #123
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Originally posted by Cleon
OK, if you find something in Pike County that's covered with hair and walks on two legs, it's not Bigfoot. It's one of the local ostensibly human residents. You'll notice the difference because the howling noise it makes will sound suspiciously like "fergit HELL" and "go home, yankee!"

(I kid because I love--I used to play in a bluegrass band based out of that area.)
I went to the first-ever Dahlonega Bluegrass Festival to see my former housemate perform. He's an authentic Appalachian storyteller and a most unique singer/songwriter and one of the best flattop pickers around.
I recently wrote a song about him. Wish I could upload it. It's one of my best.
I stay out of Georgia as much as possible. Western North Carolina at least went with the Union.
I'm told I have an accent, as in "Yuns aren't from around here, is you?"
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Old 23rd May 2005, 12:13 PM   #124
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Originally posted by LAL

My point is that though there have been some hoaxes (Ivan Marx comes to mind), they've been amateurish and easily exposed. Even a professional hoax (snowwalker) was exposed by Dr. Meldrum, who wrote me, "Exposing hoaxes is as much a part of this effort as establishing the credibility of other evidence."
They don't begin to account for the thousands of sightings and track events, and those go back much further than the last fifty years.
Well, first of all, I don't think the people hunting for Bigfoot are cranks; I'm sure there are dedicated people, who are genuinely trying to separate reality from hoax. I don't doubt that.

But my point stands; there's nothing we can point to and say with any degree of certainty, "this is not a hoax." The Patterson may or may not be genuine, but even over at bfro the best they're able to do is to try and disprove some of the hoax theories about it. There's no way to conclusively prove it's not a guy in a suit.

Until something comes along where we can conclusively say that a hoax is not a likely explanation, I remain skeptical.
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Old 23rd May 2005, 12:36 PM   #125
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Originally posted by Cleon


But my point stands; there's nothing we can point to and say with any degree of certainty, "this is not a hoax." The Patterson may or may not be genuine, but even over at bfro the best they're able to do is to try and disprove some of the hoax theories about it. There's no way to conclusively prove it's not a guy in a suit.
It's actually a female Gorilla in a suit.
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Old 23rd May 2005, 02:19 PM   #126
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No, they're just part of the imprint, like the buttocks and the heel print.
LAL - Is this the body cast they got through an actual baiting attempt? Did the folks that put that together ever explain why they didn't have motion sensitive cameras at the bait site that would show exactly what is was that made the cast? I couldn't find any reasoning on the BFRO's site as to why they would try to bait bigfoot but not film the area where the bait is.

Thanks.
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Old 23rd May 2005, 02:34 PM   #127
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Originally posted by Starrman
LAL - Is this the body cast they got through an actual baiting attempt? Did the folks that put that together ever explain why they didn't have motion sensitive cameras at the bait site that would show exactly what is was that made the cast? I couldn't find any reasoning on the BFRO's site as to why they would try to bait bigfoot but not film the area where the bait is.

Thanks.
Alton Higgins e-mailed me that it wasn't possible to put cameras at all the bait sites. They had two mounted on what they called "Ridgetop" overlooking what they thought would be a good approach. These shut down due to excess moisture in the components. They thought they could film from Richard Noll's truck, but it had alternator trouble on the way up. A bad hair day was had by all.
Here are the field notes:


http://www.bfro.net/NEWS/pnw_newslet...lExpedMain.htm
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Old 23rd May 2005, 07:55 PM   #128
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Originally posted by Cleon
The Patterson may or may not be genuine, but even over at bfro the best they're able to do is to try and disprove some of the hoax theories about it. There's no way to conclusively prove it's not a guy in a suit.

Debunking attempts have gone on long before the BFRO was even thought of.........beginning in 1967, actually.
So far, not a single receipt for the alleged suit or a human of those proportions to wear it.
It seems there's no way to prove conclusively it was a guy in a suit.


From a rather scathing review of Bigfoot Exposed by Dmitri Bayanov:


"The major part of the author's naysayings are devoted to the Patterson-Gimlin film. This part of the book is of special concern to me and my Russian colleagues because the film was for the first time systematically studied and validated to our own satisfaction in Moscow back in the 1970s. So let us see what the author says about the Russian research and researchers.

It is untrue that "the Moscow Academy of Sciences boasted its own Institute of Hominology"(p.111). The Institute is even today nothing more than a dream of mine.

It is untrue that Porshnev's first name is Victor (p.111). It is Boris.
It is untrue that Dmitri Bayanov is schooled in biomechanics(.p111).
It is untrue that Donskoy's "report ... is thoroughly subjective and devoid of any particulars of argument"(p.111).

It is untrue that "Up until 1992, (...) there had been no scientific efforts directed at the film that took up the issue from a purely quantitative (and ostensibly objective) standpoint"(p.119). Daegling's References include our paper, published in 1984, "Analysis of Patterson-Gimlin Film: Why We Find It Authentic." It is based both on quantitative and qualitative analysis and presents quantitative findings.

It is untrue that the film speed "is unknown"(p.128). Igor Bourtsev did find it in 1973. His method and result stand in black and white in the above mentioned paper, listed in Daegling's References.

It is untrue that Perez "threw down the gauntlet" (to the mainstream) in the matter of the Bigfoot film (p.119). This was done by Russian hominologists in their report presented in 1978 at the Vancouver Sasquatch conference.

It is untrue that "The gait of the film subject (...) is easily duplicated by human beings"(p.147). Mimicked, yes, but not duplicated. Human beings can mimic the walk of different animals, such as bears, camels, elephants, as well as of the film subject. But they cannot imitate it in a natural, uncontrived manner characterizing Bigfoot's gait.

It is untrue that "Skeptical inquiry into the film has made significant strides since 1967" (p.205). Actually, it hasn't moved an inch. On the contrary, all aspiring debunkers of the film over the past decades have been exposed and defeated, and not a single proof or argument put forward by us for the film's authenticity has been refuted.

Dr. Daegling claims to have found "a glaring anomaly" in the film subject, namely, "the Achilles tendon appears to attach far forward on the heel, where the adaptive advantage of having an elongated heel in the first place is completely lost. (...) A prosthesis explains what is seen in the film; evolution, by contrast, cannot make sense of it"(p.144). In our paper published 20 years before Daegling's book and listed in his References, the matter of Bigfoot's elongated heel and Achilles tendon is dealt with as follows:

"The heel is actually seen to be sticking out in an inhuman way in some frames, suggesting an unusually large heel bone (calcaneus) as has been predicted by Grover Krantz using theoretical considerations and the evidence of the footprints. That the heel of the filmed subject is really unusual is testified to by the fact that this feature was independently discovered in Moscow and Ottawa. In Moscow it was seen by Bayanov and Bourtsev as "an omen of the creature's reality". (...) It is worth pointing out also that this peculiarity has never been reported by eyewitnesses because it appears only for a fleeting moment when the Achilles tendon is not tight in a certain phase of the stride" ( The Sasquatch and other Unknown Hominoids, edited by Vladimir Markotic and Grover Krantz, 1984, p.226).

The film records in some of its frames these fleeting moments. In other words, there is no anomaly with attachment of the Achilles tendon. It is attached in the usual place at the end of the heel, and the impression that it is attached in a wrong place appears only when the tendon is slackened, not tightened. Dr. Daegling hides this fact from the reader by hiding our analysis of the film, described by Dr. Roderick Sprague as "by far the best and most thorough discussion of this classic film" ( CRYPTOZOOLOGY, Vol.5,1986,p.105).

On p.211, Daegling quotes Dahinden's phrase "lying by omission". Dr. Daegling's biggest lie by omission is his total silence about my book America's Bigfoot: Fact, Not Fiction. U.S. Evidence Verified in Russia, 1997, devoted to our validation of the Patterson-Gimlin film, which is not even listed in his references. A possible reason for the omission is the strength of the case it makes, as indicated by this appraisal by Dr. Henry Bauer, Professor Emeritus of Chemistry & Science Studies:

"Glimpses of the Patterson film in various television shows had left me incredulous that the creature shown in it could be real. This book has made me almost equally incredulous that the film could have been faked, and thus I have become open to the staggering possibility that relict hominids may still be with us in sufficient numbers that we have the chance to learn something about them. I recommend this book heartily as a highly interesting reading adventure"( Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol.18, Number 3, 2004, p.533).

On p.211, we read Dr. Daegling's conclusion that "Poor scholarship is one tell-tale sign of a pseudoscientific approach". This remark applies in full measure to the author. What's more, his book, by its intent and quality, is simply anti-scientific. Its contents do nothing but delude the reader. "

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/rev...ng_exposed.htm


And:


"People who have never seen any tracks but claim to know more about them than those who did see them are not a rare breed, their number is legion, but for someone to join their ranks waving the flag of "scientific verification" is bald-faced hypocrisy. What the tracks were like may be "anecdotal" to Dr. Daegling, but it is first-hand knowledge to those of us who studied them, photographed them and cast them, and because of our efforts there is plenty of solid evidence available to any scientist who will take the trouble to see if it can be verified or not. Dr. Daegling is not among those who have been prepared to take that trouble. Instead he stayed home and wrote a book" (John Green's email Bigfoot Exposed, Jan.3, 2005)."



Seems there are new tracks from California:

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/images/JimKarl.htm
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Old 24th May 2005, 06:20 AM   #129
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"JG: Oh, I missed one phase. There was a phase there when any scientist who showed an interest was news. We've now reached the extreme where some of the world's very top people in the relevant fields are very interested and are saying publicly that there should be proper investigation and this is not news. The only thing that's news is that the whole thing has proved to be a fake. The demonstration of that is very clear when this absolute nonsense story about Ray Wallace faking all the foot prints went all around the world in exactly the same time period the Denver Post ran a major article and sidebars on these key scientists who were saying it should be investigated, the Associated Press wouldn't even carry the story. It never went anywhere beyond Denver. To me as a newspaper man, this is absolutely shocking. I tried to contact some of those at Columbia University's long-established graduate school of journalism who keep a tab on the press and the response was, "Nobody here is interested in taking this up." In other words, for 40 years we've been butting our heads against a barrier manned by the scientists saying there can't be any such thing. Now they're stepping away from the ramparts and the media is stepping up to take their place. Absolutely fascinating. The media is seeing to it that this heresy does not get to the public."

Just to briefly touch on this. As a newspaper man you should know what a newspaper is for, not to cover the news but to sell advertising. Journalists cringe at the idea but the people who own the papers (I.E. the publishers) certainly know better.

In that light it is unsurprising that Goodall could make a favorable comment about Bigfoot and be virtually ignored in the press. It’s not surprising that some yahoos might come forward and claim to have faked footprints and it would get some copy, it’s a negative story! Negative stories sell ads.

To the rank and file “ham and egger.” Bigfoot is tabloid fare and little else. Why it’s there is an entire thread all to itself. How the people who care about the issue will pull it out of the literary gutter is another story.
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Old 24th May 2005, 07:22 AM   #130
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Just to briefly touch on this. As a newspaper man you should know what a newspaper is for, not to cover the news but to sell advertising. Journalists cringe at the idea but the people who own the papers (I.E. the publishers) certainly know better.




Who, me? I'm not a newspaperman, nor even a man, for that matter.
John Green owned a newspaper in Harrison Hot Springs, British Columbia (I don't know if he still does). Maybe Canadians do things differently. Green is Old School. He believes in things like honesty in reporting and the like.
My father did too. He quit Time/Life in their early days because they rewrote his stories with a "New York slant".



Quote:

In that light it is unsurprising that Goodall could make a favorable comment about Bigfoot and be virtually ignored in the press. It’s not surprising that some yahoos might come forward and claim to have faked footprints and it would get some copy, it’s a negative story! Negative stories sell ads.




I've posted the interview with Goodall and been trashed because the website wasn't "credible" enough. Never mind it's her voice.
She did the intrduction to the Willow Creek 2003 Symposium DVD, BTW, but who's ever heard of that?
Actually, no yahoos came forward claiming to have faked footprints in the Wallace affair; his family claimed he did after his death and produced a "family" of crude carved feet. It's become an urban legend with the guy confessing on his deathbed and even producing the suit!
One nephew tried to demonstrate how the stride could be duplicated by being pulled behind a truck. He nearly killed himself in the attempt.
Mrs. Wallace claimed she wore a suit, which she probably did, but how anyone could think that diminuitive lady could be the figure in the Patterson film is beyond me.



Quote:

To the rank and file “ham and egger.” Bigfoot is tabloid fare and little else. Why it’s there is an entire thread all to itself. How the people who care about the issue will pull it out of the literary gutter is another story.
Well, that's one thing I'm trying to do on a few message boards and in real life. I'd like to see the issue separated from UFO's, the Loch Ness Monster and The Weekly World News.
There have been some serious books written already, at least one good documentary and there's a wealth of information on the Internet.
Now, how do I get people to click?
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Old 24th May 2005, 09:40 AM   #131
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Originally posted by LAL



Who, me? I'm not a newspaperman, nor even a man, for that matter.
John Green owned a newspaper in Harrison Hot Springs, British Columbia (I don't know if he still does). Maybe Canadians do things differently. Green is Old School. He believes in things like honesty in reporting and the like.
My father did too. He quit Time/Life in their early days because they rewrote his stories with a "New York slant".
[/b]
Whups! Sorry, you were *quoting* John Greene. Wasn’t clear to me at first glance.

Journalism’s not what it used to be, maybe it never was. “If it bleeds it leads”, “sensational sells”, etc, those are all old school too. Newspapers, especially in this day and age will never cover any out of the ordinary stuff unless it’s sooo’ out there that the piece is written in ridicule. Unless the story comes out of the White House in which it will be couched as a straight piece.


Quote:
I've posted the interview with Goodall and been trashed because the website wasn't "credible" enough. Never mind it's her voice.
She did the intrduction to the Willow Creek 2003 Symposium DVD, BTW, but who's ever heard of that?
I feel kind of sad about that. I respect Goodall and hearing that she supported this piece of cripzoology made me sit up in my chair. I haven’t vetted the bit yet and I wonder what piece (or body) of evidence was compelling to her?


Quote:
Actually, no yahoos came forward claiming to have faked footprints in the Wallace affair; his family claimed he did after his death and produced a "family" of crude carved feet. It's become an urban legend with the guy confessing on his deathbed and even producing the suit!
One nephew tried to demonstrate how the stride could be duplicated by being pulled behind a truck. He nearly killed himself in the attempt.
Mrs. Wallace claimed she wore a suit, which she probably did, but how anyone could think that diminuitive lady could be the figure in the Patterson film is beyond me.

Heh! Anyone who hangs on to a rope behind a pickup with large wooden feet tied to their legs is a yahoo in my book.





Quote:
Well, that's one thing I'm trying to do on a few message boards and in real life. I'd like to see the issue separated from UFO's, the Loch Ness Monster and The Weekly World News.
There have been some serious books written already, at least one good documentary and there's a wealth of information on the Internet.
Now, how do I get people to click?
I can tell you but your not going to like it…..

Ready?

Get some people with real academic standing to publish in peer reviewed journals. Do this until the scientific community takes notice.

Sure you are going to get bumped, and ridiculed and rejected. It comes with the territory and the people editing those things probably don’t believe in monsters. Or start your own! Some folks in South America have an academic journal on UFOs. I have no idea if people are taking it seriously or not. There was (or is) a Journal of Cripzoology I think, whatever happened to it?

I’ve read a number of books, some of them were well done but devolved into first person testimony which I don’t find too compelling. The Internet certainly has lots of information, just much of it’s utter bullsh%$^. You can’t get something accepted without being acceptable to the judges and those people are stodgy folk chasing after grants. They don’t have time for monkey hunts (or for the people who hunt them.)

I know that I’m making big sweeping generalities but the simple fact is, people will not accept something outside their ken without some overriding reason to. Not unless a person is prone to accepting fantastic stories. Problem is, those types are often the spokespeople *for* the fantastic which is one reason these subjects are not taken seriously.
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Old 24th May 2005, 11:45 AM   #132
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[quote]Originally posted by The Odd Emperor
[b]

wooden feet tied to their legs is a yahoo in my book.







I can tell you but your not going to like it…..

Ready?

Get some people with real academic standing to publish in peer reviewed journals. Do this until the scientific community takes notice.

Sure you are going to get bumped, and ridiculed and rejected. It comes with the territory and the people editing those things probably don’t believe in monsters. Or start your own! Som
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Old 24th May 2005, 11:51 AM   #133
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LAL, obviously you would wiggle your big fake foot in the sand, not your own foot. What a silly response.

I still say a bigger foot means the footprint depth would not be much greater.

A hoaxer would be thinking about all of this beforehand, of course. I know I would.

"Hey I know what we should do! Let's make the footprints go up this impossibly steep slope!

Cool!

Now, they can't just be plain old flat prints, because that wouldn't look right. You come after me and fix the toes so that they appear to be gripping like a real foot would. Make the big toe curl a bit due to the slope.

Gotcha! I see how they have to look.

No No! The toes should should grip in the same direction.

Break off a branch or three, as well. Twist one too, they love it when they see that.

Yeah, our feet hardly even make an impression at all, so we can walk around willy nilly and they'll never know we were here!

True, but we'll look for any evidence as we go and get rid of it."

What do they get out of it? The same thing I got out of soaping cars and egging houses on mischief night.

There are lots of ways to create some of this Bigfoot evidence if you take the time to sit there and think for a while about how you might do it. If you take the time to go out in your yard and try a few things, you will get even better at it.

Adding in an anatomical deformity is also just the thing a hoaxer would think of. He'd think of a way to do it too.

CSICOP covered the crippled bigfoot story pretty well.

The argument that people couldn't create the hoax, is completely invalid. What you are saying is only that you can't figure out how people could have done it, and that isn't good enough.

I can't figure out how lots of things are done.

I do know a money tree when I see it, though.

http://boneclones.com/KO-043L.htm
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Old 24th May 2005, 12:09 PM   #134
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Didn't a man admit to faking the crippled Bossburg bigfoot prints?

How come the missing toe shows clearly in the photo of the crippled print in the snow?

A person would only have to walk less than a mile to make 1,089 fake bigfoot tracks.




http://www.bigfootencounters.com/ima...ssburgsnow.jpg

Another pic with a little wider view showing the object that I believe caused the bump in the side of the supposed bigfoot footprint.

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Old 24th May 2005, 12:27 PM   #135
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Looking at the crippled footprint at length just makes me think it's fake.

The toes and heel have a sort of squared off appearance to me.

I find it odd that the crippled foot is called both a left and a right footprint at times.

I'll go by the big toe and say it's supposed to be the right footprint.
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Old 24th May 2005, 12:40 PM   #136
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The original cast certainly looks a lot more vague than the reproductions with the bones drawn on them.





Quote:
For his part, Green suspects the crippled prints are bogus. "Grover is a good friend of mine, but he was born gullible," he laughs. "The fact that Ivan Marx was present at Bossburg is enough to throw everything into doubt." Marx was a Californian hoaxter who regularly filmed "authentic" Sasquatches—with buckling fur and feet flapping like a circus clown’s—and sold the footage. Marx made his first movie in Bossburg while Dahinden was tracking the crippled prints, and had been seen in a Spokane store buying considerable quantities of fur. Says Green: "I[t] was always fascinating that René would tear into Grover about every last thing—except the crippled prints."
http://www.vancourier.com/issues01/0...s/07101N1.html
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Old 24th May 2005, 01:21 PM   #137
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I feel kind of sad about that. I respect Goodall and hearing that she supported this piece of cripzoology made me sit up in my chair. I haven’t vetted the bit yet and I wonder what piece (or body) of evidence was compelling to her?
So, an expert speaks out, gets ridiculed, sceptics wonder why experts don't speak out...........
She's been looking into it for over thirty years, read every book she could get her hands on.........I doubt it was any one piece of evidence.


Excerpt here:

http://www.bfro.net/news/WCSpic.asp



Quote:
Heh! Anyone who hangs on to a rope behind a pickup with large wooden feet tied to their legs is a yahoo in my book.
Yep, but he didn't claim he had faked any tracks.




Quote:
I can tell you but your not going to like it…..
How do you know that?

Quote:
Ready?

Get some people with real academic standing to publish in peer reviewed journals. Do this until the scientific community takes notice.
Re 2 papers rejected for reading at meetings from Dr. Meldrum:

"The meetings were the American Assn of Physical Anthropologists. I will have to dig up the rejections from my files. I have had two abstracts accepted there, with very good dialogue. Also the Northwest Anthropological Conference, the Idaho Academy of Science, and the American Association for the Advancement of Science (Pacific Division). I am working on manuscripts for publication as well. Just had a paper come out in the Journal of Scientific Exploration."



Dr. Krantz published in the in-house organ of AAPA, but it's lightly peer reviewed and isn't mainstream enough.
Henry Gee displayed a hopeful attitude when he said there's hope for Yeti Hunters (after the discovery of H. florensis).



Quote:
Sure you are going to get bumped, and ridiculed and rejected. It comes with the territory and the people editing those things probably don’t believe in monsters. Or start your own!?

Been done.


Quote:
Some folks in South America have an academic journal on UFOs. I have no idea if people are taking it seriously or not. There was (or is) a Journal of Cripzoology I think, whatever happened to it?
Not sure. Krantz published there too. It was peer reviewed but it's not "real" peer-review.


Quote:
I’ve read a number of books, some of them were well done but devolved into first person testimony which I don’t find too compelling. The Internet certainly has lots of information, just much of it’s utter bullsh%$^.
Stick to reputable, well referenced sites and you should be okay. Best of Bigfoot (IMO):

http://www.bfro.net/

http://www.bigfootproject.org/articl...03_report.html

http://www.rfthomas.clara.net/bigfoot.html


Quote:
You can’t get something accepted without being acceptable to the judges and those people are stodgy folk chasing after grants. They don’t have time for monkey hunts (or for the people who hunt them.)
Napier(1974) said it wasn't that scientists don't like a good mystery; they do. It's just that they couldn't see good reason to invest time and money on a project with so little chance of success. And so the Patterson creature strolled into the sunset..............

Quote:
I know that I’m making big sweeping generalities but the simple fact is, people will not accept something outside their ken without some overriding reason to. Not unless a person is prone to accepting fantastic stories. Problem is, those types are often the spokespeople *for* the fantastic which is one reason these subjects are not taken seriously.

Green, Meldrum, Noll, Bindernagle, Fahrenbach, Swindler, Sarmiento, Schaller and Goodall are hardly those types. Why are they not being listened to?
I hear a recent poll says 80% of Americans now believe Sasquatches are real. Maybe they'll write their congresspeople concerning some funding for research.
As soon as Bush is out of office, that is.........
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Old 24th May 2005, 01:23 PM   #138
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Good grief. Computer screwed up and I seem to have spammed.
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Old 24th May 2005, 01:26 PM   #139
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Erased.
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Old 24th May 2005, 01:38 PM   #140
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Originally posted by LTC8K6
Looking at the crippled footprint at length just makes me think it's fake.

The toes and heel have a sort of squared off appearance to me.

I find it odd that the crippled foot is called both a left and a right footprint at times.

I'll go by the big toe and say it's supposed to be the right footprint.
It's the right. Looking at the copies on my hearth, which are quite detailed, even showing air bubbles from a prior casting, it's easy to say "left" because it's on the left.
The toes and heels are rounded.
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Old 24th May 2005, 01:46 PM   #141
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[quote]Originally posted by LTC8K6
[
Quote:
The original cast certainly looks a lot more vague than the reproductions with the bones drawn on them.


Trick of the light?
I can see grass impressions on the photo I posted precisely where they are on my copies.

What is your source for the quote? It sounds like some of Daegling's nonsense.

"More on the crippled right-footed Bossburg Tracks: Bossburg, Washington 1969
near northeastern Washington's Colville National Forest

On page 56 of Dr. Grover Krantz's 'Bigfoot Sasquatch Evidence' book, it was mentioned that "some pathology" might have deformed the right foot of our crippled individual. It has only four toes-the middle one is either missing or somehow raised above the other four, which have spread to fill the gap. More significant is the distortion of the entire foot, which is bent radically inward from the heel. Krantz calculated the natural adaptations in foot structure and stride necessary to enable a large, heavy animal with such an anatomical deformity to walk. "It was right on," he says. "Such an animal would have had to walk exactly as this one did: stride, angle of foot placement, distribution of weight -- it was all exactly as it had to be."

These footprints, in fact, were what converted Krantz from a Sasquatch skeptic to a believer.

"Before I examined these prints, I would have given you ten to one odds that the whole thing was a hoax," he says. "But there is no way that everything could have been tied together so perfectly in a fake."

"Various suggestions have been made as to what that pathology might be, with 'club foot' being the most popular opinion. I had not the expertise, time, nor the inclination to pursue this matter any further. Fortunately Jeff Meldrum did have all those attributes and has provided us with the likely answer. He researched the pertinent literature and found that metatarsus adductus is almost certainly the ailment in question. This is a congenital condition, also known as 'skew foot,' where both heel and forefoot are twisted inward — just as in our crippled footprint. Metatarsus adductus usually occurs in about one per thousand children in varying degrees, usually in just one foot, and often improves over time without treatment. (Interestingly, in one detailed report of fifteen patients it was bilateral in seven cases, affected only the left foot in one, and only the right foot in the remaining seven.) In any case, the actual bones are little affected, and they are simply forced apart as I had postulated originally. This does not necessarily make my foot-bone reconstruction exactly accurate, but it does at least offer some general support."

© Krantz, Grover S. 'Bigfoot Sasquatch Evidence' (1999, B.C.: Hancock House, pp. 298-299)
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Old 24th May 2005, 02:12 PM   #142
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Originally posted by LTC8K6
LAL, obviously you would wiggle your big fake foot in the sand, not your own foot. What a silly response.


Any foot. What a silly response.
Your big fake foot isn't going to leave convincing friction ridges if you wiggle it around.

" FYI

The readily available, least costly and easiest to work with rubber material used in mold making does not cool, it is not hot. Hot rubber is very dangerous, unless you have the equipment of a major tire manufacture like Cooper. Hot rubber loses the elasticity and replication resolution characteristics needed here. This rubber cures... it degasses. The mixing, settling and curing process produces a gas that gravity tries to extract from the liquid while form fitting to an object. A method of getting this gas out is to sharply rap against the support structure while it is still in liquid form or to use a vacuum chamber after mixing. Air bubbles lingering in the liquid will not be on the surface unless the surface produces tension from being porous in nature. I bring this up because of the skin pores sometimes seen on the ridge details.

Wood grain does not hold loops, whorls or bifurcation commonly found within natural friction ridge patterns. Sure, someone might be able to carve such detail but no one to date has come clean with such a device. The ridges typically found on a purported Sasquatch cast ("typical" here meaning that what is found typically looks like this, not that Sasquatch casts typically, or most of the time, are found with these ridges on them) are around .080" in width. The great apes that are recognized sport even thicker ridge details. Humans are less than .030".

The use of walnut shells could produce some interesting detail in toes but that is about it, for it too has no details linking it to actual friction ridges in primates. Walnut shells have a ridge pattern on them that is not uniform in thickness and would seriously have to be reworked for forgery purposes; Steaming multiple shells and form fitting together to simulate a large foot mold, then carving loops, whorls, bifurcation and sweat pores in them.

The one cast that was sent to Dr. Grover Krantz was a discrediting tactic put out as a challenge from Rene Dahinden and answered by an Ohio resident. Only certain areas on the cast had ridge detail that Grover felt looked good. Instead of attacking Grover... why hasn't anyone attacked the perpetrators? I always have found this interesting.

Feet and hands of course have a difference in this thickness; the hands have thinner ridges. Apes do not have as much a difference between the hands and feet as do humans."

- Richard Noll

(Noll has been investigating for thirty years.)





Quote:

I still say a bigger foot means the footprint depth would not be much greater.


A lot depends on the substrate.


Quote:

A hoaxer would be thinking about all of this beforehand, of course. I know I would.

"Hey I know what we should do! Let's make the footprints go up this impossibly steep slope!

Cool!


You're doing this up twenty miles of dirt road in hopes that armed men who have come to film tracks won't see you? Or are you in snow in an area where there's little chance your handiwork will be discovered and all your work will go for naught. How do you erase your traces in snow?
You both have advanced degrees in biomechanics and anthropology? And a lot of time?


Quote:

Now, they can't just be plain old flat prints, because that wouldn't look right. You come after me and fix the toes so that they appear to be gripping like a real foot would. Make the big toe curl a bit due to the slope.


>rest of ridiculous scenario snipped<

The trees need to be twisted 8' up.

Quote:

The argument that people couldn't create the hoax, is completely invalid. What you are saying is only that you can't figure out how people could have done it, and that isn't good enough.



Yeah, don't bother having any evidence any of this has actually been done. "Could have been faked" is certainly a compelling argument certain to end any serious discussion.
You could have been faked, for all I know.

Quote:

I can't figure out how lots of things are done.


Obviously.

Quote:

I do know a money tree when I see it, though.


Are you aware that Paul Freeman spent around $50,000 and much of his life on his quest and made $1500 doing an ice cream commercial?
René Dahinden ended up broke and disillusioned.
Patterson spent the last of his money on a wild goose chase.
What makes you think there's money in this, especially for hoaxers?
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Old 24th May 2005, 02:38 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally posted by LTC8K6
Didn't a man admit to faking the crippled Bossburg bigfoot prints?



No.
You're thinking of Rant Mullens. He produced some carved feet which didn't match the tracks. I was sorry to see a reference to this in a 1994 article by James Randi. With all due respect, it's cherry-picking, rather like Creationists bringing up Piltdown Man to "prove" evolution didn't happen.


Quote:
How come the missing toe shows clearly in the photo of the crippled print in the snow?


Because it isn't missing; it's raised.
Quote:

A person would only have to walk less than a mile to make 1,089 fake bigfoot tracks.


With a 4'-6' stride.


"The three were quickly down to Marx's place and back to the tracks, cameras and-in René's case-a gun cocked and loaded for Sasquatch. Now for the first time René saw a full spread of the cripple's tracks. They were, and are still, among the most convincing tangible evidence to be turned up in his years as a Sasquatch hunter. The left footprint measured 17 ½ inches long, 6 ½ inches across the ball of the foot, and 5 ½ inches across the heel; the right one was 16 ½ inches long, 7 inches across the ball, and also 5 ½ inches at the heel. The right foot was deformed; the third toe was either badly twisted over or was missing, there being only a slight impression in the snow at its base; the little toe stuck out at a sharp angle; and the whole foot curved outwards and showed two distinct lumps on the outer edge. A careful count eventually showed there were 1,089 clearly definable prints on the path that the three followed through the snow.

The tracks led them from the river, across the railroad and across the main highway. Whatever had made them had stepped over a forty-three-inch-high, five-strand wire fence, judging by the single prints of the left and the right feet on either side of the fence. On the far side of the fence, in a cluster of pine trees, there was a marked depression in the ground among the pine needles, apparently where some heavy animal had rested. No one denies the possibility that this was made by a cow or a deer, there being plenty of each in the area, but its presence in the line of the crippled tracks is worth noting, as is the fact that right in the center of the depression was a clump of snow holding the imprint of the toes of the left foot, as though the snow had been shaken loose after building up on the foot. In the clearing beyond the pine trees were hundreds more tracks, leading across the flat land and up a small hillside. In the heat of what appeared might be the moment of truth, René, discarding his customary caution, cried, "Now we're going to get that hairy sonofabitch!"

He figured the prints were going to lead on up the hill and the hunters would be able to run whatever had made them into the ground. But the prints stopped, halfway up the hill, turned, and retraced their path downward. At one spot, between two side-by-side prints, the hunters discovered a deep yellow patch in the snow, apparently urine. It was probably against their interests that they neglected to collect the yellow snow; analysis may have given some clue as to what made it. The prints continued down the hill, parallel with their first ascending path, returned to the fence and crossed it again about fifty feet from the first step-over.

From there the tracks led the hunters across the road and back and over the fence several times, and eventually across the road and the railroad, through a patch of bush and to the edge of a steep part of the river bank, about one hundred and fifty feet above the water. There the bank was overhanging. The tracks turned and went upstream for approximately two hundred feet, to a point where the bank sloped gradually down to the river, and there they stopped. All the way down the bank was a deep groove, as one made by a heel and a foot acting as a brake for an upright body "skiing" down the bank. Below that there was just rocks; no further markings.

One thought hammered repeatedly in Dahinden's mind, the thought that had prompted his earlier optimistic exclamation: the tracks were fresh, not more than fifteen hours old. He had checked the area the previous evening and it had been bare. Nevertheless, his characteristic caution was at work again. He was stirred all right, but his mind persisted in herding suspicions and pushing them to the front. Why did the tracks happen to be just there, where he would be sure to go every day, where he checked all the time, within a few miles of the garbage dump where the thing had been reported seen all the time? It was the obvious place for a hoaxer to plant his work. On the other hand it seemed impossible that anyone could have faked such minute anatomical detail as was evident in the crippled print. He walked the route of the tracks seven times, examining every print, puzzling over them. Assuming they were real, where had the thing come from, and where had it gone to? Had it crossed the river upstream or downstream, and if so - how far away in which of those directions? (There are numerous reports in the history of the Sasquatch of the creatures swimming rivers and lakes.) The questions were obvious, and easy to ask, but were impossible to answer, given the group's limited resources. Dahinden, applying lessons he had learned at places such as Bluff Creek (where people, seeing a print, had sprinted off in every conceivable direction looking for its owner, leaving the print to the ravages of the first rain shower or the first curious onlooker and his dog), concentrated on the footprints, trying to deduce as much as possible from them."

http://www.n2.net/prey/bigfoot/articles/bossburg.htm



Quote:
Another pic with a little wider view showing the object that I believe caused the bump in the side of the supposed bigfoot footprint.




The casts were from the first set of prints found by a local man near the dump.
The photos are of the trackway found by Marx and Dahinden days later.

There were over 1089 objects making the bump(s) in exactly the same place?
The "bumps" are bunionettes.
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Old 24th May 2005, 03:50 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally posted by LTC8K6


CSICOP covered the crippled bigfoot story pretty well.




This?

The possibility neglected by all investigators is that the Bossburg "cripplefoot" is simply an enlarged copy of a human clubfoot deformity. In 1969, textbooks describing congenital foot deformities were commonplace and had been for decades, and images (both photographic and radiographic) had been widely available in such sources. (4) The act of copying such images is a far more likely source of hoaxing than the involved cerebral and technical exercise of fabrication based on anatomical principles. It requires no specialized knowledge beyond tracing and enlarging a two-dimensional image, and the fabricated print of a real deformity ensures the correctness of anatomical detail. Krantz's insistence that a hoaxer must match his training and genius is thus irrelevant."


http://www.rfthomas.clara.net/papers/cripplefoot.html

Pure conjecture. Daegling has no case.
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Old 25th May 2005, 04:54 AM   #145
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Quote:
Originally posted by LAL



What is your source for the quote? It sounds like some of Daegling's nonsense.




Oops missed the link. Sorry.
Naturally, a newpaper photo isn't going to show good detail.

Marx did some hoaxing after the fact to "kind of keep things going". He was on the payroll.
But there's no evidence he faked any of the Cripplefoot tracks or was responisible for sightings earlier that year. His mere presense doesn't invalidate the evidence. Green was temporarily taken in by some of his photos (see middle, below).


http://www.geocities.com/tomkinson99/hoaxes/hoaxes.html


He was called in because of his known interest (he'd been on a Tom Slick expedition). Others in the area had sightings. So did his widow. And grandsons. Last month.

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/articles/burney05.htm


Hm. Three sightings and/or track events in April '05 that I've found so far without really trying, from California to Canada.
Those hoaxers really get around.
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Old 25th May 2005, 06:52 AM   #146
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Originally posted by LAL
[b]So, an expert speaks out, gets ridiculed, sceptics wonder why experts don't speak out...........
She's been looking into it for over thirty years, read every book she could get her hands on.........I doubt it was any one piece of evidence.
I don’t wonder, I know exactly why accredited people don’t speak out. Who would? If you were working in some conventional arena with public moneys, you would probably hesitate from making any statement of a field that (from the point of view of many) is squarely in the lunatic fringe.

Quote:
"The meetings were the American Assn of Physical Anthropologists. I will have to dig up the rejections from my files. I have had two abstracts accepted there, with very good dialogue. Also the Northwest Anthropological Conference, the Idaho Academy of Science, and the American Association for the Advancement of Science (Pacific Division). I am working on manuscripts for publication as well. Just had a paper come out in the Journal of Scientific Exploration."
Excellent! I think we get that and I’ll look forward to reading it.



Quote:
Green, Meldrum, Noll, Bindernagle, Fahrenbach, Swindler, Sarmiento, Schaller and Goodall are hardly those types. Why are they not being listened to?
I hear a recent poll says 80% of Americans now believe Sasquatches are real. Maybe they'll write their congresspeople concerning some funding for research.
As soon as Bush is out of office, that is.........
Don’t hold your breath. It’s very likely we’ll get some other GOP dufus.

I don’t really pay much heed to the 80% of the ‘merican public “believes.” stuff. Most of them probably don’t care one way or the other. Bigfoot resides in a kind of netherworld to most people, somewhere between an involuntary extraterrestrial colonoscopy and bat-boy.

I guess for myself; I’m more interested in the sociology of the phenomena than the creature it’s self. If it were found I would be fascinated. If it were discovered to be some kind of massive hoax. One that became real due to the uncoordinated activity of many people over decades if not millennia, I would find that even *more* fascinating.
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Old 25th May 2005, 07:43 AM   #147
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Bigfoot

If these 'Bigfoots' do exist, then they must be some sort of undiscovered primate. Nothing paranormal, just another species of ape. The photos are far too grainy and out of focus to ascertain what these moving creatures are, so saying that this video is 'definitely Bigfoot' or 'could be 'Bigfoot' is a wild assumption. (Not that anyone here has said that; sometimes these programme makers make impetuous definitions.)

Hitch - I think I saw that programme about these 'Bigfoot' hoaxers, of which you speak. I remember that there was some bloke with these enormous plastic 'Bigfoot' feet on, marching through the woods, and a couple of other blokes behind him, taking pictures. If that isn't the programme, then there must have been another one that I didn't see.

Yes, there has been a discovery of a new species of ape, and another discovery of homo floresciensis, a pigmy species on an island near Indonesia. Scientists have found these species and (presumably) have photographed them. It is the suspicious nature of the photos of the various 'Bigfoots', and the wild stories surrounding them that make the creature something to be more 'otherworldly' than it really is. What with the 'fake feet merchants' and the 'dressing up in 'Bigfoot' gear' hoaxers added to the mix, it becomes more laughable than serious.

Whatever the truth about 'Bigfoot', it certainly isn't paranormal.

Patsy.
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Old 25th May 2005, 08:05 AM   #148
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Quote:
Pure conjecture. Daegling has no case.
Fair enough, but to say it was a genuine Big Foot is conjecture as well.

As to the 4' - 6' strides. I am 6' 3" and I can easily stride in that range. I know so because my normal stride is about a yard, which is very helpfull when golfing.

No great effort needed to add a foot and a half to the stride.
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Old 25th May 2005, 10:07 AM   #149
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Quick Question

To anyone who might know:

Are the new species that are found, usually species that have never been directly observed before - or just animals that many people had seen but nobody had seen one that knew that it was not a classified species?
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Old 25th May 2005, 11:40 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally posted by Starrman
Fair enough, but to say it was a genuine Big Foot is conjecture as well.

Or inference.
I think it's safe to say it wasn't deer.


Quote:

As to the 4' - 6' strides. I am 6' 3" and I can easily stride in that range. I know so because my normal stride is about a yard, which is very helpfull when golfing.

No great effort needed to add a foot and a half to the stride.
Did you do this at an altitude of 4800' and leave tracks on a dirt road to be spotted by helicopter?
How many 6'3" hoaxers do you know altogether?
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Old 25th May 2005, 12:12 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Odd Emperor
I don’t wonder, I know exactly why accredited people don’t speak out. Who would? If you were working in some conventional arena with public moneys, you would probably hesitate from making any statement of a field that (from the point of view of many) is squarely in the lunatic fringe.


Krantz' career was hurt by that.


Quote:

Excellent! I think we get that and I’ll look forward to reading it.



I think it's this one:

http://www.scientificexploration.org...ts/v18n1a5.php

Quote:

Don’t hold your breath. It’s very likely we’ll get some other GOP dufus.


>turns blue<


Quote:

I don’t really pay much heed to the 80% of the ‘merican public “believes.” stuff.



Another poll says 48% believe the world was created about 10,000 years ago.

Quote:

Most of them probably don’t care one way or the other. Bigfoot resides in a kind of netherworld to most people, somewhere between an involuntary extraterrestrial colonoscopy and bat-boy.


Sleep paralysis and photo-doctoring respectively (or is it just really bad makeup?)
Quote:


I guess for myself; I’m more interested in the sociology of the phenomena than the creature it’s self. If it were found I would be fascinated. If it were discovered to be some kind of massive hoax. One that became real due to the uncoordinated activity of many people over decades if not millennia, I would find that even *more* fascinating.

I'm interested in the rather hysterical rejection of the whole idea I run into sometimes and a willingness to believe fake feet (clown feet, in one debate) and costumes can possibly account for it all.
How would uncoordinated hoaxing produce the same dermal ridges 20 years and hundreds of miles apart?
(I know, Daegling said it could be done by long distance telephone. He didn't produce the phone bills and that was another place where I had to put the book down.)
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Old 25th May 2005, 12:56 PM   #152
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Quote:
Did you do this at an altitude of 4800' and leave tracks on a dirt road to be spotted by helicopter?
I did not, but somebody could have. People have accomplished some amazing things for unknown motives.

Have a thumb through the guniess book of world records to see just how clever and talented people can be when they are focused on getting something done.

Quote:
How many 6'3" hoaxers do you know altogether?
Great point. How many Bigfeet do you know altogether?

Let it be known that I hope that you are right, but I don't think you apply your skepticism the same way to Bigfoot as you do toward the hoaxers.

edited to add an 'r'.
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Old 25th May 2005, 01:09 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally posted by LAL


Krantz' career was hurt by that.
That really blows. If your honestly pursuing a scientific objective, keeping your nose clean and staying objective. Doing this kind of research should enhance your career.

But, we are dealing with emotional, irrational humans here. That’s why I maintain that only a specimen will convince most people.

Quote:
Another poll says 48% believe the world was created about 10,000 years ago.
I thought it was 6,ooo years ago.

Quote:
Sleep paralysis and photo-doctoring respectively (or is it just really bad makeup?)

Hey hey HEY! No cracks about Batboy! Batboy's da bomb!


Quote:
I'm interested in the rather hysterical rejection of the whole idea I run into sometimes and a willingness to believe fake feet (clown feet, in one debate) and costumes can possibly account for it all.
How would uncoordinated hoaxing produce the same dermal ridges 20 years and hundreds of miles apart?
(I know, Daegling said it could be done by long distance telephone. He didn't produce the phone bills and that was another place where I had to put the book down.) [/b]

Well, you can always tell when a debunker has gone too far, it’s when their probable explanation is far more complex than the fantastic explanation. I would guess that if the tracks were the work of a hoaxer than it was the same hoaxer twenty years apart. Unusual to say the least but not impossible. Otherwise I’d have to admit that I don’t know how the various tracks seem to be made by the same individual over many years—It could be a real animal.

I’m actually quite astounded that plaster casts of footprints could produce dermal ridges at all, even in mud.
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Old 25th May 2005, 01:17 PM   #154
Starrman
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Quote:
How would uncoordinated hoaxing produce the same dermal ridges 20 years and hundreds of miles apart?
I lost track of the cite for this, how did they know the tracks were made 20 years apart?
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Old 25th May 2005, 08:59 PM   #155
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I still see nothing that a good hoaxer would balk at.

I make a fake left footprint, then I go far enough along for an impossible stride, then I make a fake right footprint. We hide our own prints as we go along.

Better yet, I'll do the lefts, and my buddy will do the rights. We'll do a 10 foot stride to really impress the believers.

I knew in grade school that primates have footprints, as well as fingerprints.

Krantz is a nut, that's why he lost respect, imo.

I have no idea whether there is an unknown large primate running around in the dense woods of the U.S.A.

I would love it if such were discovered. I was a huge bigfoot fan as a child.

I am just not buying any of the evidence I have seen so far, nor any claims about how impossible it is to do this or that.
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Old 25th May 2005, 09:02 PM   #156
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Quote:
I’m actually quite astounded that plaster casts of footprints could produce dermal ridges at all, even in mud.
The hoaxer wouldn't be a bit surprised, since he made sure they'd show.
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Old 26th May 2005, 04:50 AM   #157
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Odd Emperor
That really blows. If your honestly pursuing a scientific objective, keeping your nose clean and staying objective. Doing this kind of research should enhance your career.

But, we are dealing with emotional, irrational humans here. That’s why I maintain that only a specimen will convince most people.

[/B ]

Krantz was disliked by many in the "Bigfoot community" for advocating killing one in order to convince science.
He spent much of his free time trying to do that.

Quote:
Originally posted by The Odd Emperor
[B ]
I thought it was 6,ooo years ago.
Originally posted by The Odd Emperor
[/B ]


+/- 4000 years.


Quote:
[B ]
Hey hey HEY! No cracks about Batboy! Batboy's da bomb!
[/B ]
I apologize to Batboy and his little dog too.



Quote:
[B ]Well, you can always tell when a debunker has gone too far, it’s when their probable explanation is far more complex than the fantastic explanation.
[/B ]

Applying Occam's Razor:


http://www.hancockhouse.com/products/pdfs/LocalsSC.pdf



Quote:
[B ]
I would guess that if the tracks were the work of a hoaxer than it was the same hoaxer twenty years apart. Unusual to say the least but not impossible. Otherwise I’d have to admit that I don’t know how the various tracks seem to be made by the same individual over many years—It could be a real animal.
[/B ]


Jimmy Chilcutt found this compelling. It wasn't the same animal but they were the same type of ridges. Chilcutt was sceptical to begin with, BTW. He called Meldrum to see if he could be of assistance. Meldrum has over 100 casts in his collection. Chilcutt is the only expert on primate prints.
In the case of Bluff Creek, three or four individuals were identifiable by their prints.

Quote:
[B ]I’m actually quite astounded that plaster casts of footprints could produce dermal ridges at all, even in mud.

Not to mention sweat pores. (They're irregular in shape, not to be confused with air bubbles.) Krantz showed some of them to DR. Tim White. Plaster isn't the most sensitive material and not all casts show them, nor were they noticed right away.
The Skookum Cast shows hair imprints and friction ridges on the heel. They had a good supply of casting compound on hand, but came close to running out before the impression was filled.
That cast and the opinion of the top primate anatomist in the country should have settled the matter, but it didn't.
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Old 26th May 2005, 04:56 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally posted by LTC8K6
The hoaxer wouldn't be a bit surprised, since he made sure they'd show.
Do you honestly think professors of anatomy are so stupid they can't spot a fake?
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Old 26th May 2005, 05:27 AM   #159
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Quote:
Originally posted by Starrman
I did not, but somebody could have





I take it you aren't familiar with the west slope of the Cascades.
Let me know when you have some actual evidence.



Quote:
Great point. How many Bigfeet do you know altogether?

None, but having lived in an area where sightings were almost common, I see nothing improbable about this at all. I know the terrain, the cover, the food sources............Skamania County is 86% national forest and contains Mt.St. Helens with much room to spare. It has a population of about 10,000, mostly along the river.


Quote:
Let it be known that I hope that you are right, but I don't think you apply your skepticism the same way to Bigfoot as you do toward the hoaxers.

What makes you think that? Have you read any of Dennett's arguments? Daegling's?
Each piece of evidence should be looked at objectively.
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Old 26th May 2005, 05:37 AM   #160
LAL
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That really blows. If your honestly pursuing a scientific objective, keeping your nose clean and staying objective. Doing this kind of research should enhance your career.

But, we are dealing with emotional, irrational humans here. That’s why I maintain that only a specimen will convince most people.



Krantz was disliked by many in the "Bigfoot community" for advocating killing one in order to convince science.
He spent much of his free time trying to do that.


[B ]
I thought it was 6,ooo years ago. [/b]


+/- 4000 years. 6000 was Bishop Ussher's dating. Some YECers don't accept it.




Hey hey HEY! No cracks about Batboy! Batboy's da bomb!



I apologize to Batboy and his little dog too.


[B ]Well, you can always tell when a debunker has gone too far, it’s when their probable explanation is far more complex than the fantastic explanation.

[/b]

Applying Occam's Razor:


http://www.hancockhouse.com/products/pdfs/LocalsSC.pdf


[b]
I would guess that if the tracks were the work of a hoaxer than it was the same hoaxer twenty years apart. Unusual to say the least but not impossible. Otherwise I’d have to admit that I don’t know how the various tracks seem to be made by the same individual over many years—It could be a real animal.
[/B ]


Jimmy Chilcutt found this compelling. It wasn't the same animal but they were the same type of ridges. Chilcutt was sceptical to begin with, BTW. He called Meldrum to see if he could be of assistance.
Chilcutt is the only expert on primate prints.
In the case of Bluff Creek, three or four individuals were identifiable by their prints.



I’m actually quite astounded that plaster casts of footprints could produce dermal ridges at all, even in mud.



Not to mention sweat pores. (They're irregular in shape, not to be confused with air bubbles.) Krantz showed some of them to DR. Tim White. Plaster isn't the most sensitive material and not all casts show them, nor were they noticed right away.
The Skookum Cast shows hair imprints and friction ridges on the heel. They had a good supply of casting compound on hand, but came close to running out before the impression was filled.
That cast and the opinion of the top primate anatomist in the country should have settled the matter, but it didn't.
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