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Tags timed out , mdc , sanjay vashi , homeopathy , challenge application

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Old 2nd June 2005, 10:58 AM   #1
KRAMER
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DR. SANJAY VASHI, Sub-Continent Homeopath

I am a homeopath. Practicing only homeopathy last 17 years at Navsari, Sujarat, India. A few words about me I have been doing research work in the field of homeopathy since I was in 2nd year of D.H.M.S. (4 yr. dip. course) in which I had developed a blood test to identify the most suitable homeopathic remedy. The name iof the test is Lipoid flocculation test for which I was given reserach scholarship by the director Sharda Boison Ltd. and Presdient central council of homeopathy Dr. Jugal Kishor. I am also selected in the editorial panel of Asian Journal of Homeopathy since 4 to 5 years.

I have been able to cure many chronic diseases in my long carrier including Lupus, Psoriasis, Prostate, Diabetes, etc. I have gone through your website and the challange on internet. I agree to follow all the rules and regulations stated by you in the website to be able to take part in your challange and I request you to please arrange for the preliminary test as stated in the challange.

I request you once again to please arrange the prelimanary test programme at your earnest.

-Dr. Sanjay B. Vashi


============================================

Dear Mr. Vashi,

Thank you for your JREF Paranormal Challenge application.

Please tell us what you propose to do as a demonstration of your claim. You made no mention of it in your claim letter.
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Old 17th June 2005, 10:57 AM   #2
KRAMER
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Dear Mr. Kramer,
Received your letter dated 27-05-2005, thank you very much for the same. As I have already mentioned in my JREF challenge application. We have been practicing pure homeopathy since last 18yrs and have been successfully able to treat and cure some so called incurable diseases like lupus, psoriasis, prostate, HIV and diabetes. So in my JREF challenge application I propose to treat and cure (homeopathically) any one of the above mentioned diseases to go through your preliminary test. So please arrange for a patient suffering from any one of the above-mentioned diseases, to be treated by me, as fast as possible and kindly give me a chance to prove myself.
Regards, Yours sincerely, DR. Sanjay B. Vashi


==============================================

Dear Sir,

YOU make the arrangements. It is the job of the applicant to arrange for what is needed to conduct the test.

The JREF only negotiates the protocol, and then observes the test.

We suggest that you chose HIV to conclusively prove your claim. This would be all the proof we need, and curing this disease would definitely qualify you for final, formal testing, and for the Million Dollar Prize.

So, you must choose which disease you intend to cure, and then explain to us in detail how you intend to do so.
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Old 20th June 2005, 10:34 AM   #3
KRAMER
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Dear Mr. Kramer,

In your JREF challenge you have mentioned that diseased person to be cured and the place will be selected by you and would be somewhere near the applicant resides. Now I am clear about my claim that I can cure psoriasis as well as lupus. Time required depends upon many other factors like the age,sex,etc. So you tell me where should I contact to find a patient suffering form the above mentioned disease. I claim to take up your challenge and go through it successfully, I have already sent the notified application for the same. Please let me know the next step.

Thanks, Dr. Sanjay B. Vashi


==============================================

Dear Dr. Vashi,

Again you misunderstand, sir. It is YOU, the applicant, who must arrange for what is needed to test your claim.

You yourself must locate the patients and present to us a protocol that does not in any way endanger the subjects.

Please be advised that if your protocol requires the subject to cease taking prescribed medications, that protocol would be rejected.

Please submit your protocol proposal. At that point, we can proceed.
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Old 20th June 2005, 10:44 AM   #4
KRAMER
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Dear Mr. Kramer,

In ur last e-mail u have mentioned that i have to arrenge the patient so pls let me know whether u require evidences and letter of cured case,etc.? or u want me to treat a case under ur observation.

Thanks,

DR. Sanjay B. Vashi


==============================================

Dear Dr. Vashay,

The demonstration must take place under controlled conditions. Of course we would require medical evidence that the subject is indeed suffering from the disease you claim to be able to cure. We would also need assurances from professional medical practitioners that no harm can come to the subjects involved in the test.

The test would need to take place before a team of investigators. The JREF does not conduct the test, but we do have associates at the test who act as observers. If the test is to take place over a period of time, flawless documentation of the proceedings must be included in your protocol proposal.

The results must be clearly evident, and no protocol proposal in which "judging" is required will be accepted by us.

Once again, we request that you submit a test protocol. You have repeatedly stated what you can do, and repeatedly we have asked you to detail HOW you intend to demonstrate it. Little more can be done until you propose a test protocol for review.

Regarding your suggestion that a "letter of cured case" might be accepted as evidence, it cannot. We only accept an actual demonstration of your claim, as clearly stated in the Challenge rules. No anecdotal evidence or "letters" will suffice.
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Old 1st July 2005, 10:45 AM   #5
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Dear Mr. Kramer,

Must have received my last E-mail. I know that it is difficult to believe for any one in what I had written about my incurable patients and their prognosis, unless one sees it by himself or makes any other similar arrangements and that is the reason Sir I request humbly to your kind self to direct me step by step in order to get through your prelim. Test and go ahead. I request your kind self ones again to please guide me step by step in simple English, as to what and how should I do to take part in your challenge? This money means a lot to me as I have plans to do a lot of charity work for suffering humanity and also after this if you desire I am ready to do research work for you to find out homeopathic remedies (after my research reaction in the lab between group of patients blood- serum and remedies and experimental fluid prepared by me). Which may cure many incurable diseases like aids, Lupus, etc. or stop their progress.

So please be kind enough to guide me properly.

Hoping for your kind and most needed co-operation.

Yours sincerely, Dr. Sanjay B. Vashi


===========================================

Dear Sir,

We have no interest in having you do homeopathic research for the JREF.

Your wish is that the JREF lead you "step by step" through the Challenge application process. I can do that, happily.

1- State your claim: CHOOSE A DISEASE. Stop telling us that you "can cure diseases like AIDS and LUPUS", etc.
Stop telling us which diseases you CAN cure. Tell us now WHICH DISEASE you WILL cure.

2- Tell us HOW you will demonstrate this for us.

3- Tell us under what conditions you will offer this demonstration.

4- Tell us what will constitute a successfull demonstration. In other words, will the disease be completely cured, or will the symptons temporarily subside while the disease is still present? If the symptoms return, do you still consider this to be a successful demonstration? We would NOT consider that a success, as you have stated in your claim that you can CURE these diseases.

This is all you need to do. Simply tell us WHAT you will do, HOW you will do it, and then, DO IT.
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Old 5th July 2005, 01:04 PM   #6
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dear sir,

i do not mind if u have no interest in my research,as i am already engaged by other institutions like yours here in INDIA,US,UK AND SOUTH AFRICA and the govt. of these counteries are ready to give me full support, so dont worry about it anymore. As per my claim I have never repeatedly said thet I can cure certain diseases but I have said that I HAVE ALREADY CURED LUPUS,HIV,PSORIASIS,PROSTATE,etc.My understanding of the word cure means that the disease should be radically cured up to the genetic level and not merely symptons disappearing, which can be pathologically proved. Now I think you know what I am trying to say about how I treat patients. I have both before cure and after cure pathological reports of LUPUS patients which I can produce along with a testimony from the patient who is in U.S.A.I do not have a patient suffering from LUPUS at present.I do have a patient suffering from cirrohsis of lever who is being treated with homeopathic remedies and whose pathological conditions are found continueously improving. Now you tell me straight whether I have to find out a patient suffering from any one of the above mentioned diseases and treat him homeopathicaly and monitor pathological reports from time to time or you will arrange for a patient suffering from LUPUS. I propose to cure a LUPUS patient at any stage with full pathological findings proving that he/she is suffering from LUPUS. so pl direct accordingly.

thanks,
dr.sanjay b.vashi


============================================

Hello Sir,
If you can conclusively CURE Lupus and provide clinical proof thereof in a controlled setting that can be monitored by a JREF representative, this would be acceptable to us. How do you propose to conduct this demonstration? Do you have the facility available? If so, please provide us with documentation verifying that everything you need is readily available to you. At that point, we will contact one of our representatives in India and begin to make the appropriate plans.

Please understand, however, that the JREF will not "find" your LUPUS sufferer. It is the responsibility of the applicant to provide all the necessary ingredients for the testing of his claim. YOU must provide the test subject.
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Old 6th July 2005, 10:36 AM   #7
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Getting Somewhere? Yes? No? Maybe?

Dear Sir,

Unlike U.S.A. LUPUS is very very rarely found in India particularly in Gujarat where I am living. So I do not have any LUPUS patient at present but I have the pathological reports of before treatment and after cure of a LUPUS patient with a letter (testimony) written by him and his photographs, who is living in U.S.A. I had examined him when he was on a tour to India and treated him accordingly. I whenever asked can produce the name address and phone number and I can certainly cure one if such patient comes to me. Right now I have patients suffering from psoriasis, cirrhosis of liver (declared in the last stage by others), diabetes, cancer, leucoderma and HIV. All this patients are recovering slowly. Required pathological repots are available. We have all the facilities here to monitor the patient's condition both physical and pathological during my treatment. As you have stated in your last E-mail your representative can actually meet the patients suffering from psoriasis or diabetes or cancer, etc. and also monitor the treatment given by me. And see the pathological reports up to genetic level. We have all the papers of different patients suffering from different ailments at different stages of improvement during my treatment. So I request you to please arrange for a JREF representative to visit us. For your kind information we are located at Navsari, which is 3-4 hours drive from Bombay-India and 1-hour drive from Surat-South Gujarat. I once again take the opportunity to know whether diabetes is included in your list of diseases to be cured enabling us to go through the preliminary test.
THANKS,

Dr. Sanjay B. Vashi


===========================================
Dear Sir,

We are not yet at the stage of the negotiations where can grant your request for a visit by a JREF representative. We must first agree to the terms and circumstances of the actual test.

Since you now state that a test involving Lupus would be difficult or impossible to conduct, please now tell us which disease you propose to cure with homeopathic medicines.

Cirrhosis of the Liver, Cancer, Diabetes or HIV would all be acceptable to us.
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Last edited by KRAMER; 11th January 2006 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 7th July 2005, 11:21 AM   #8
KRAMER
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Dear Sir,

If you choose to visit us in comming few wks. I could show the treatment of all the 4 or 5 dieases i had mentioned earlier.still,I would be able to demonstrate the treatment & cure of the diease DIABETIS at any time suitable to you.I have read your challange-site many times & I agree to follow all the terms & conditions mentioned therein by you.Hope you would be able to arrange your representative's trip as fast as possible.pl. feel free to ask if i could be of any help to you in the same matter.

thanks, dr.sanjay b.vashi


==============================================

Dear Sir,

HOW will you demonstrate your claim? Please be as specific as you can possibly be.

You say that you will "be able to demonstrate the treatment & cure of Diabtetes". Please tell us HOW you propose to demonstrate this, and under what circumstances.

Once again, sir, it is YOUR responsibility to propose a test that would verify your claim. Without a test proposal from you, we cannot proceed. So please, tell us HOW you will demonstrate your claim.
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Old 11th July 2005, 01:04 PM   #9
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Dear Sir,

I treat all the diabetic patients with 2 groups of medicines.

Group one: it consists of medicines selected after examining the patient thoroughly and considering symptoms of the patients as a hole i.e. his mental and physical symptoms which are not related only with the disease, these medicines (3or4) are all selected in a dynamic form i.e. very much attenuated form. Homeopathically called 30c potency, these medicines are given in pills form no.40 is the size of the pills. 2 pills to be taken thrice in a day the names of the medicines thus cannot be stated unless we see the patient.

Group two: this consists of 4-5 remedies, which I have found to be very effective in stimulating the immunity of the patients like group one and rejuvenates the non-functional pancreases cells. This medicine is also highly attenuated and does not have any direct action on the sugar level of the blood of the patient. There are medicines like sizizium jambolicum, hydrangea and homeopathic insulin i.e. insulin 1x, 2x or 3x which when is given in its crude form controls the sugar level of the blood but for a very short period of time and so we strongly remain very far from them, never use them as they can only palliate and not cure. So if a patient is taking insulin or other tablet for diabetes and still his sugar level is higher than normal than we allow him to take his prescribed dose of insulin or other medicines and along with that start our medicine three times a day for four weeks. After which we advice the patient not to take our medicines and take his regular insulin and than go for PPBS test. We see that first the patient's sugar level comes to normal with his insulin and our medicines than we continue for another month in the same way. Than when the sugar level goes below normal we ask the patients diabetologist to taper the dose of insulin and etc. like wise we go up to total stoppage of insulin and give only our medicines. When the blood sugar comes to normal even without our medicines (we ask the patient to stop medicines since morning and go for a PPBS test in the afternoon, so there is no question of presence of our medicine in the blood level) now the patient is cured. This whole process takes about 3-4 weeks time and if we find no reduction in sugar level with our medicines for 3 weeks we may call it a failure and let him continue with his insulin but till now it has never happen.

I think now I have satisfied your queries. Our medicines would be dispensed in presence of your representative so no question of insulin being given by us. Your representative would also monitor the tapering process of allopathic medicines and the whole process of cure simultaneously.

Thanks,
Dr. Sanjay B. Vashi
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Old 11th July 2005, 01:31 PM   #10
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Dear Dr. Vashi,

OK. You conduct the "cure" as you see fit. We do not need to observe your treatment. We only need to verify that the subject has diabetes prior to testing. We will do this through our representative in India.

When you believe that the patient has been cured, notify us (and our representative) and the patient will be placed in isolation for 72 hours, with no medications of any kind. If the subject gas been cured, this will be proven during the 72 hours of isolation. So, the entire test, for our purposes, will last only 72 hours.

Do you have the facilities to isolate the patient for 72 hours under sealed observation?
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Old 12th July 2005, 10:54 AM   #11
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dear mr. kramer,

thank you for your last mail.you can send your representative any time you wish.please let me know about his arival two days in advance.yes we would be able to keep the pt. in isolation under your supervision.

thanks,

dr.sanjay b. vashi.


=============================================

Dear Dr. Vashi,

We have some more research to do here before we can proceed.

Apparently there is a treatment called DEPOT that can mask the symptoms of diabetes for up to 30 days. While we are NOT in any way suggesting that you may attempt to use fraud to win the Challenge, we must determine a protocol that would insure that no form of deception can possibly be used.

If you can suggest a manner in which we can be certain that DEPOT or any other such drug or treatment has been used, please tell us.

We are anxious to test your claim but we cannot do so until a secure protocol that leaves no possibility of cheating has been agreed upon. We hope you understand that this precaution is not just for the benefit of the JREF, but also for the benefit of all honest and sincere applicants.

Thank you for your patience.
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Old 13th July 2005, 11:05 AM   #12
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DEAR MR.KRAMER,

I heard about DEPOT for the first time & that is from you. however,if such kind of thing is existing.then you are correct inyour own way.any applicant would definatly use such thing to get the prize money.but sir,as far as i am concerned ido not, & will not give my pt. anything except homoeopathic remedies,for any amount of money or any other material gains.i am practing pure homoeopathy since 18yrs.very honestly & religiously and i have my own image for that,here.so i wouldnot do any thing,such as what you are refering to,which may hurt my image,as i have to pass my remaing life here only,still for your satisfaction i am prepared to do any thing YOU say to safe guard thePROTOCOL.

I AM READY to give you in writting,on a stamped paper, that i would not do any foul play in order to get the prize money,& if i am caught by you during the treatment,doing so,then i would accept any punishment that you find should be given to me. by the way,if such a thing exisists then ther should also be some lab method to detct it.if by any such method, iam found to be doing any such froud,then i could be held guilty & liable to any punishment by you.this type of conditions i have also agreed to, in the challange application i had sent, and which was notorised. apart from this ,i would also show cases of psoriasis,cirrohsis of liver,leucoderma & other so called incurable diseases,which i am treating & all of them getting better,to your representative.this much i can do from my side,& iam also ready to do any thing that you suggest to satisfy you that thre would be no foul play in conducting our trial for the prize money.

thanks

DR.SANJAY B. VASHI.


=============================================

Hello Dr. Vashi,

I trust that you are not trying to trick the JREF, but the test must be designed to insure against any trickery, regardless of our trust.

We will get back to you once we have received some expert medical advice which we are now awaiting, regarding your claim and how to properly test it.
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Old 18th July 2005, 06:53 AM   #13
KRAMER
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dear mr.kramer,

would pl.be kind to let me know approximatly, how much time would you take in geting your expert medical advice? as because i also have to arrange for a proper patient,who could stay with us during our 72hrs isolation period. awaiting your earnest reply,

your's sincerly, dr.sanjay b. vashi.


=============================================

Dear Dr. Vashi,
We have received much advice from several sources in the last week. The subject would need to be tested for the presence of any medications that would mask the symptoms of Diabetes, both before and after the observation period.

Although we feel that a truly conclusive test of homeopathy would have to be Double-Blinded, we are now prepared to work with you toward arranging a test of your claim.

I now offer you a list of several groups in India who may assist us with the testing of your claim:

Here is the LINK to over 50 Skeptics Organizations and Investigators in India:

http://www.indian-skeptic.org/html/org.htm

I am sure that from within this list you can find someone not too far from you who can assist us in testing your claim. As we here at the JREF do not have the resources to contact all of these organizations, we must leave it to you to do so. I remind you also that all investigators are volunteers. They do NOT work for the JREF, and they are independent of us. Please keep that in mind.

Once you have made contact with someone, please notify me, and I will contact them and set the process in motion. When attempting to contact these people, tell them that you have applied for the JREF Million Dollar Challenge, and that you have been accepted.

Let me know as soon as you have succeeded in contacting someone. I suggest that you be as patient as possible, as it is our experience that tests do not happen very quickly. It could easily take many weeks to secure volunteers in India to assist us in this test.
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Old 19th July 2005, 08:55 AM   #14
KRAMER
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Dear Mr. Kramer,

Thanks for your latest E-mail. I will log on to one of the web-sites suggested by you and contact the nearest person and let him know what you have asked me to tell them. Secondly I am not getting impatient at all, I just wanted to know how to proceed further because I know that this not a child play but the serious matter requiring lot of sincere efforts from both the sides, I also understand that the persons you have suggested are giving honorary services to your organization and they should be respected accordingly.

As soon as I get in touch with them, I will immediately let you know about it, sir.

Thanks, Dr. Sanjay B. Vashi


=============================================

Thank you, Dr. Vashi, for your courtesy. I look forward to the forthcoming test.
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Old 2nd August 2005, 01:14 PM   #15
KRAMER
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To an investigator in India

Greetings Sir,

My name is Kramer. I handle all matters regarding the JREF Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge on behalf of Mr. James Randi, who sends his greetings to you today.

Have you received any correspondence from our Challenge applicant MR. SANJAY VASHI? We write to you today to confirm that his claim has been accepted for testing, although no specific test protocol has been determined. We were hoping that the investigator in India (you, perhaps?) will handle these matters in the applicant's native language.

Please let us know if you have been in touch with Mr. Vashi, and please tell us if you can act as the JREF representative
in the testing of Mr. Vashi's homeopathy-related claim.

KRAMER, JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.


=============================================

Dear Kramer,

Thanks, Yes, I did receive his email, and I will do the follow up, which means understanding the deatils of the claim, area of challange, process of investigation and all other things related to this as we have handled such cases in the past.

Presently I am out of my country and I will be returnening by the end of August, so I may begin the process omly after that, and of course I will remain in touch with you at every step, Sanjay Vashi knows this and he has agreed to wait.

More later.

Thanks, Babubhai Desai

==============================================

Hello Mr. Dessai,

This is certainly excellent news! Randi and I anxiously await your correspondence on the claim of Mr. Vashi. I look forward to hearing from you again once you have spoken more to Mr. Vashi.

It is VERY IMPORTANT that you be sure that the test is not in any way dangerous, and that the subject can NOT be harmed in any manner whatsoever.

If it becomes clear to you that a test of homeopathy which claims a cure for diabtetes may harm the subject, then the applicant Mr. Vashi must chose another disease. This will not be easy to determine, but we trust your judgement in this matter.

-Kramer, JREF



Mr. Desai is the Secretary of the GUJARAT Rationalist Association.
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Old 3rd August 2005, 01:54 PM   #16
KRAMER
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...from Mr. Desai, JREF Associate in India

Dear KRAMER.

My organization is Satya Shodhak Sabha which means "Body of TRUTH Seekers", we are affiliated to Committee for the Investigation of the Claims of the Paranormal. We are known to B PREMANAND also. We have ourselves thrown a challange of Rs 100,000 to any one who can in fraud-proof conditions show so- called Supernatural phenomena, we have our own set rules, for formal acceptance of challange. NOBODY HAS SINCE COME FORWARD TO ACCEPT THE CHALLANGE.

I know to test the scientific veracity of a so-called homeopathy is much complicated since it is an expereiment on Human being as well. It is complicated, we have to keep the patient under our control and how to monitor the project. I'm just thinking, I will first study the area of his challange, and get in touch with you and after discussion we would move forward.

Ours is a registered trust, we have several projects to promote scientific spirit of Inquiry. I will send more literature later

- Bi Babubhai Desai
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Old 9th September 2005, 06:09 AM   #17
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Dear Sir,

With all the due respect I just want to clear out one very important thing that I am not after world wide publicity or further research. I wont be doing it even if somebody wants me to go for it after my successful efforts. I have no plans in going into manufacturing of my formula on commercial basis. I even have no desire to go to even local press after the experiment. So it should be understood clearly that my job is just to prove that HOMEOPATHY WORKS and it is not mere quackery.

In homeopathy two individuals who suffer from same diseases would require may be two different remedies to get cured. Which depends on case taking, physical examination, study of the mind of the patient, physical and mental observation,etc. So no question of going for commercialization and unwanted popularity.

Secondly in our test it is not a rule that the patient must be insulin dependent. The patient may be on tablets and I insist that the diabetic patient should have partially functioning pancreas so that the cells which has gone non-functional, can be rejuvenated by homeopathic medicines and according to our past correspondences (with Mr. Kramer) I have mentioned that the patient should not be juvenile.

P.S.

Mr. Kramer please be kind enough to clear out above mentioned points and that the patient may be on tablets and it should not be a case of juvenile diabetes.
Thanks,
Dr. Sanjay B. Vashi


============================================

Dear Sir,

Are you saying that you would not want the "popularity" that would accompany your having offered the world a cure for AIDS? Or are you saying that you would not want the world to know about this cure. Please clarify.

And I am very sorry but NO, Dr. Vashi, the diabetic patient MUST be insulin-dependent.
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Old 9th September 2005, 06:16 AM   #18
KRAMER
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From B.D. Desai, Investigator

Dear Kramer,

This is with regard to the acceptance of challenge by a Homeopath Doctor from Gujarat India, Now that I have returned from abroad, we have started the process.

We had a meeting last Sunday, He has shown willingness to carry out experiments on patients with Diabetes, which he claims he can cure within three to four weeks, We have to select an Insulin dependent diabeteic patient. He is also open for an experiment on prostrate which can be cured without surgical intervention.

He also claims he can bring back full blown AIDS patient to HIV positive condition with Homeopath medicine.

Now as you know this would be a serious challenge and experiment, successs and failure can have world wide repercussions, so we have to be very careful and we have to carry out the experiment in a hundred % controlled situation, we have to go into a DOUBLE BLIND CONTROLLED STUDIES, we should also think of the factor of theoretical statistical errors.

We propose to follow this procedure :

An insuline dependent Diabetic patient will be indentified,Through medical and Laboratory reports condition will be confirmed, then we seek his willingness to undergo the experiment, then the Patient shall get admitted to a Hospital where he /she would be under observation for 24 hours for 2 to 3 weeks, The drug which he may administer shall first be chemically examined.

He has accepted the proposal, but this will involve lot of money, five hundred dollars to begin with, then I need your well documented legal authority to accept the challenge.

PLEASE LET ME KNOW HOW TO PROCEED IN THE MATTER. There are many more things, but I shall discuss after you respond to this.

I want to draw your attention to the report in published in the latest issue of LANCET medical journal wherein they have declared reservations regarding Homeopathy after carrying out experiment on 203 patients.

PLEASE GIVE ME YOUR Tel nos, FAX NOs, WEBSITES, LEGAL CONDITIONS FOR ACCEPTING THE CHALLENGE .

More later, B D DESAI, SATYA SHODHAK SABHA

==============================================

Greetings Mr. Desai,

Thank you for your most recent email.

The JREF Challenge specifically requires that ALL costs for the demonstration/experiment are the sole responsibility of the applicant. Having signed the JREF Challenge application, we would hope that he is aware of this. The JREF does not pay for any of the costs involved in the testing of paranormal claims.

Our phone # is 954-467-1112...our fax# is 954-467-1660. The links below will take you to our website, and the JREF Challenge rules, application, and accompanying FAQ. I am ready to answer any other questions you may have at any time. Email is always the very best way to correspond with me.
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Old 9th September 2005, 06:19 AM   #19
KRAMER
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From B.A.Parikh, Investigator

Dear Dr Sanjay Vashi,

We have gone through all the literature of correspondence between You and Mr. Kramer sent by you. We also met in regard of this Challenge last week at Surat and discussed in detail the feasibility of Testing Your Claim of curing completely the patients of Diabetes and some other diseases solely through the treatment by Homeopathy and the possible modus operandi of conducting the investigation also.

In your correspondence with Mr. Kramer You have agreed in writing to abide by Twelve Official Rules of Governing the JREF Challenge.

I draw your attention to all these Rules but especially Rules 4, 5 and 6.

I repeat here some of the important conditions.

(i) The patient to be treated by you will be tested and checked by our team of Medical Doctors before the start and after the completion of your treatment.

(ii) The patient claimed by you to have been cured after treatment will be placed in isolation for 72 hours without any medication and under sealed observation.

(iii) No part of the testing procedure will be changed in any way without agreement of all parties concerned.

(iv) The applicant that is you will be required to perform the preliminary test before the representative of JREF that is Satya Sodhak Sabha, This preliminary test is to determine if the applicant that is You are likely to perform as declared in the promise/ challenge during the Formal test

(v) All the expenses such as Transportation, accommodation, materials, medical tests, doctor’s consultation fees, assistants and all other costs for any other persons or procedures incurred in the pursuit of this challenge are to be borne by the applicant that is by You. Neither the JREF nor its representative will bear any of the costs.

(vi) The patients for the test, the disease to be selected for treatment, the doctors, the pathological laboratory, the assistant and supervisory nursing and paramedical staff and all relevant factors will be decided by our joint consultation and agreement.

(vii) Every applicant must agree upon what will constitute a conclusion that, on the occasion of the formal test he or she did not demonstrate the claimed ability or power.

Still other finer points can be decided and finalized during the personal meet

Please look into all these points and other aspects of the test and then send your reply. If and when necessary we can arrange our meeting either at Navsari or at Surat.

With Regards, Yours , B.A.Parikh
Satya Sodhak Sabha, Surat.

==============================================

Respected Bhanuprasadji,

I have signed and also notarised the application form before sending it to Mr. Kramer and I once again agree to abide by all the rules (during the protocol) mentioned in the challenge application form. I very much look forward to meet you in person. Please arrange our next meeting at either of your place or at Navsari at any time that is suitable to you and Mr. Desai.

With regards,
Dr. Sanjay B. Vashi
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Old 12th September 2005, 09:04 AM   #20
KRAMER
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from Dr. Vashi

Respected Mr. Kramer,

All I want to do is prove that Homeopathy works,

and while doing so who can stop the popularity which comes along with it, of its own. In homeopathy we treat the patients constitutionaly i.e. two or more patients suffering from same disease(say AIDS) may require different constitutional remedies to get cured. So merely by curing one patient of AIDS can give me popularity upto one or two columns in daily newspaper. Which I already had many times in past, here in India. To find out generalised homeopathic formulation which can cure diseases like AIDS in general, I require to research more deeply if I get scope, which is a undecided matter right now. I donot have any objection regarding your diabetes proposal. The only condition is the patient should not be a case of Juvenile diabetes which I think should be acceptable to you. To get cured of diabetes one should have the pancrease in the body atleast.

With regards,

Dr. Sanjay B. Vashi


==============================================

Dear Dr. Vashi,

Thank you for your reply. I am happy to hear that you agree to our protocol suggestions.
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Old 14th September 2005, 11:57 AM   #21
KRAMER
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from the JREF, to our investigator in India

Dear Sir,

We have some very serious concerns about the homeopathy test. Please read below and comment as per your thoughts on this matter. I do not think that the JREF can approve this proposed test, for several reasons, some of which I will detail for you now.

To quote a concerned friend...

"The proposed testing method actually seems to be testing NOT homeopathy NOR the homeopath but merely the patient. It is simply a test of how long the patient can go without meds until serious if not potentially fatal problems occur. In some patients this may be indefinitely, in others it may be but hours or days. Overall, it's neither a reliable test, nor is it properly directed."

We have also received some warnings about possible legal issues, and again I quote...

"The JREF is based in the USA under FDA jurisdiction, and this means that there are a number of regulations you will have to comply with, no matter where in the world the actual experiment takes place. That is just the legal side; add to this the considerable uncertainty inherent in such experiments, ESPECIALLY on small groups.

To endorse an unorthodox test protocol on a single subject...is total folly. In my honest opinion, you are out in the deep end with this one.

If homeopaths want to try for the challenge, let them make a proving test. Simple, safe, and no ethical problems."


I must say, Doctor, that we are coming to the conclusion that this test is not adequate in proving the claim made by Sanjay Vashi, and the JREF is much more concerned with the patient's safety and the eficacy of the test, than we are with the potential embarrassment brought to us by having not withdrawn our support for this protocol sooner.
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Old 15th September 2005, 12:25 PM   #22
KRAMER
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A Statement from RANDI:

The JREF will not become involved in any tests that call for legitimate medical care or maintenance to be withheld from a patient in favor of astrology, tarot readings, magnets, vibrations, homeopathy, or any other sort of quackery, simply because that puts lives in danger. Such a protocol will not be entertained.

-JAMES RANDI
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Old 16th September 2005, 09:35 AM   #23
KRAMER
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From B.D. DESAI

Dear Randi & Kramer,

I am indeed thankful to you for the timely clarification regarding open medical tests and their results. There are many theoretical problems regarding the challange accepted by the Homeopath Doctor Sanjay Vashi of Navsari, India, We had two meetings with him. I now realize, if what he says is true, that there are some serious flaws in the challenge accepted by JREF and manner of practical testing.
He says , he will bring one patient of Diabetes, before he begins to administer drugs, we have to confirm that the patient is positively having the disease.we are also free to test the drug he is supposed to administer. Then the patient is free to go and the drug will given everyday by the Doctor, after a couple of weeks he would be coming with the same patient and keep him under our observation for three to five days to confirm that he does not need insulin or any other drug.

I feel that no such single case can effectively prove in favour or against any proposition. The method of science requires that out a large sample we can test, it should be replicable, universally applicable and could be tested anywhere and anytime. One isolated patient getting cured is not the proof, We have to apply DOUBLE BLIND CONTROL method, also we have to take care of the statistical errors,

Even Allopathy does not make such wild claims, There are, as I am sure you know , several several factors that influence, which particular factor has influenced in a particular case can not be determined, and we can not jump to the conclusion.

If it is a challenge based on Homeopathy, then no allopath approach or instrument should be allowed to be used, In India lot of allopath testing and medicine being used to gain accepatance. The original theory of Honeyman, the Founder,did not have the BP instrument, blood testing, chemical analyses that is available today, If Homeopath is academically and theoretically sound it should act outside the realm of Allopath. Homeopath is supposed to be an Independent system of medicine.

I must inform you that Homeopath and Ayurved doctors have NO TRUST in their Pathy, They want to be in this money making profession so this is used as a backdoor entry, May be, Dr Sanjay Vashi could be an exception,but in India almost 95%of doctors practice allopath in the name of Homeopath or Ayurved, Through money and political pressure they got many of the things included in the medical curriculam and thus gain legitimacy

WE WANT TO DEAL WITH Dr SANJAY VASHIS CHALLAGE BUT LET ME KNOW IN VERY CLEAR TERMS WHAT IS THE MINIMUM TESTING AND HOW IT HAS TO BE CARRIED OUT. I WOULD VERY CLEARLY SAY THAT I CAN NOT BE A PARTY TO A TESTING THAT IS NOT SCIENTIFIC , FOOLPROOF AND FREE OF FLAWS, PLESE SPECIFY WHAT AND HOW WE HAVE TO GO ABOUT NOW.

THANKS,

B D DESAI

==============================================
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Old 16th September 2005, 09:37 AM   #24
KRAMER
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TO Mr. Desai

Dear Mr. Desai,

We agree completely with your assessment of the test protocol proposal by Sanjay Vashi, and we apologize sincerely both to you and to Mr. Vashi for not having realized the problems sooner.

The only test that we can envision that would conclusively verify Mr. Vashi's claim would most surely be with DOUBLE BLIND techniques, involving having Mr. Vashi identify which medicines (or which treatment) were homeopathic, and which were not.

The JREF would accept a protocol that simply demonstrated that Mr. Vashi can tell the difference between a homeopathic solution and a non-Homeopathic solution. If he can do this, he would be the first person EVER to pass the JREF Paranormal Challenge preliminary test.
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Old 4th October 2005, 08:36 AM   #25
KRAMER
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Join Date: Apr 2004
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my dear mr.kramer,

hope you are fine, since my last e mail, i have been waiting eagarly for your relpy, as i dint get any till now,iam getting confused, kindly let me know if i have to agree to any other condition. please be kind to guide me so as to carry out the protocol.hope you will support the truth.awaiting your early reply.

regards,

dr.sanjay b. vashi.

================================================== ========

Dear Mr. Vashi,

If you will agree to a Double-Blind test in which you can tell us the difference between a homeopathic "remedy" and a non-Homeopathic solution, your claim can be tested. You must tell us how you can do this, and suggest a test protocol.

We cannot accept any test that withholds medication from a patient or causes any possibility of danger for someone suffering from a disease. We trust that you yourself, as a medical practitioner, will understand our concerns in this regard.
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Old 20th December 2005, 08:58 AM   #26
KRAMER
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,434
Dear Dr. Vashi,

We have not heard from you since September 23. Does this mean that you wish to withdraw your Challenge application? Please advise at your earliest convenience.
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Old 5th January 2006, 09:33 AM   #27
KRAMER
Former challenge facilitator
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,434
Dear Dr. Vashi,

It has been nearly 4 months since we last heard from you. In my penultimate email to you, I advised you that the JREF was unable to accept any test protocol that involved the withholding of medication to any test subject whose health depends upon that medication. We cannot approve any test that puts the subject's life in danger.

Since that email, I have not received any correspondence from you. Is this intentional? Shall we assume that you are no longer interested in our Challenge?

Please advise at the earliest convenience. If we do not hear back from you, we will assume that you have indeed lost interest in making an greater effort to provide proof that your claim is a vaild one, and your file will be closed accordingly.

KRAMER, JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.
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