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#1 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 15,990
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The Libertarian Party's exit plan for Iraq
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#2 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,658
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Bloodshed.
I am an isolationist at heart but this requires a bit more thought. |
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#3 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: S.E. USA. Sometimes bible country
Posts: 7,787
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Re: The Libertarian Party's exit plan for Iraq
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Of course by the time half or more of those troops have gone, the remainder will be so thin on the ground they won't even be able to protect their supply lines or make a meaningfull dent in the insurgency, and by the time 75% of them have left the remainder will be locked up in their camps with Al Jazeera showing terrorists lobbing grenades at them just for fun. The last ones will be hard pressed to cover their backs while the world watches them run for the choppers. I say, if there are 140,000 Libertarians in the country, we should ask them to take a year's sabatical from How to save the world, and go to Iraq to implement their plan. Jackasses. |
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#4 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 42,371
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#5 |
Thinker
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 198
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Exit policy:
1) The next president of the US abjectly apologises for the illegal invasion, points out that Iraq belongs to Iraqis. 2) Every US citizen is withdrawn from Iraq. Put 'em on ships, planes, march 'em overland. |
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..., but the sincerity of his conviction can in no wise help him, because he had no right to believe on such evidence as was before him. - William K Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" My Tree of Life applet (Java) My Age of Worms campaign. |
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#6 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 14,155
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Re: Re: The Libertarian Party's exit plan for Iraq
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And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how. |
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#7 |
Mormon Atheist
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 60,135
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Ego, ain't it a bitch? |
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#8 |
JREF Kid
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 8,952
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Sounds a lot like the Bush plan. Trickle out the soldiers. etc.
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Nothing Reportable Here |
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#9 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,729
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It will be helicopters from the roof of the US Embassy all over again....
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#10 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 42,371
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#11 |
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 44,226
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Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity. Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. Perception is real, but the truth is not. - Imelda Marcos |
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#12 |
Terrestrial Intelligence
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Terra Firma
Posts: 6,451
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It is of course easy to come up with all sorts of plans if you will never have to be responsible to actually carry them out. Add a few numbers so it makes you sound like you know what you are talking about. And then add a few soundbites that make it sound popular: "More troops to Afghanistan". It's easy when you think about it.
So let's see whether I can come up with a few of my own. Here is a libertarian one: Leave it up to the Free Market. Remove all the soldiers and let private defense contractors handle the thing. The Free Market will solve any problem without resorting to force. The Pencil Proves It. How about something Neocon: There is nothing a tactical nuke cannot fix. A fairly reasonable option: Run to the UN and shout: "Mommy, mommy! I broke my toy. Fix it for me." Another option that might actually work: Ask actual military experts how to it should be done. A typical Bush administration solution: Withdraw. Whatever the consequences, spin it into great progress and say that it is exactly the thing you intended. Except for the bad consequences, but those were to be expected and are not really relevant. A liberal solution: Negotiate with the insurgents and friendly ask them to stop, and if they do you will withdraw all the troops. Guess which one - I heard on CNN - is being carried out... |
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Perhaps nothing is entirely true; and not even that! Multatuli |
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#13 |
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,504
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#14 |
I lost an avatar bet.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 28,461
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Voice of America (South Korea)
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I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly. |
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#15 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 18,312
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1) The next president of the US abjectly apologises for the illegal invasion, points out that Iraq belongs to Iraqis.
If by "Iraqis" you mean "Saddam Hussein's thugs", which was the real meaning of "the Iraqi people" before the invasion. |
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#16 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: S.E. USA. Sometimes bible country
Posts: 7,787
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Re: Re: Re: The Libertarian Party's exit plan for Iraq
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#17 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 53,076
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Re: The Libertarian Party's exit plan for Iraq
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***According to the latest in Constitutional...ummm..."scholarship", our US 2nd Ammendment allows each of us the right to carry a personal nuclear bomb. |
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If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him. Lupus is Lupus tor central scrutineezer |
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#18 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 15,990
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#19 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 15,990
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Re: Re: The Libertarian Party's exit plan for Iraq
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#20 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
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#21 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: S.E. USA. Sometimes bible country
Posts: 7,787
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Re: Re: Re: The Libertarian Party's exit plan for Iraq
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#22 |
Neoclinus blanchardi
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,705
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If I were running the libertarian party then I would send in 400,000 troups
from our bases around the world, who want to join in the fight and win by the way, and seal the Iraq borders. No getting in or out without a check. I'd then do a through scan of the country, walk the troups in one kilometer a day clearing mines, finding weapons, leaving no stone unturned. Ending in securing the cities, rebuilding infrastucture with iraqies not halburtons, and get a goverment up and running in six years, basically cleaning up the mess Bush made. |
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Schrodinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't. |
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#23 |
Bufo Caminus Inedibilis
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Citrus Heights, CA
Posts: 15,468
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I did read the entire proposal, and I have to agree with Ed. Bloodshed is the result of such a plan.
Oddly enough, Earthborn probably has the right answer embedded in that rather odd post, (odd that is, for someone from the Netherlands. Are you sure you weren't an American in a previous life?) Sad fact, though, is that we'll probably wind up with the Liberal answer, and we'll either have Saddam Hussein back in power, and as violent and dangerous as ever, or someone worse. I'm glad the LP is actually trying to be a part of the discussion. But I could wish for a more realistic approach to the solution. They're headed in the right direction, (Bush isn't), but I'm less sanguine about how prepared the Iraqi military and Iraqi police forces are. We'll see. |
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#24 |
High Priest of Ed
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,823
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Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda |
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#25 |
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 8,004
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Quote:
The paragraph implies the academies graduate 3500 police each month, but that is not what precisely what was said. Is 3500 the total monthly capacity of training, or the throughput? There is a question of efficiency. The paper implies a high skill ratio (approximately 1 Iraqi policeman is equivalent to 1 US troop). Various news articles have indicated this is not the case. Even in Kurdish areas police sort of 'vanished' when attacked. If one month of training is what they actually get, we cannot expect an Iraqi off the street with one month of training to be equivalent to a seasoned soldier. It's nice to be thinking about this but I suspect that there is not an exit plan that will not involve civil war or serious bloodshed unless the political arrangement of Iraq is also fundamentally altered. Introducing 'democracy' will not be enough if it only means that the powerful segments prey upon the weaker ones. I do not see anything yet that indicates this is not their way of life. Changes like dividing Iraq into three separate states and then keeping them from attacking each other might be needed. This idea was frowned on early on but I still think has some merit. Maybe bloodshed lite... US meeting with insurgents has probably already resulted in the saving American lives, and proportionately shifted to more Iraqi deaths. Reasoning presented to 'bloodfree insurgents' ![]() Surely a common goal of both the US and the insurgents. (sarcasm) |
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#26 |
High Priest of Ed
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,823
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Re: The Libertarian Party's exit plan for Iraq
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Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda |
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#27 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,734
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It's going to be a minefield no matter which way this turns out. There will be Iraqi and foreign elements that will not like what's going on once the US withdraws. Right now, there are people in the area who don't need a us-against-West excuse to blow each other up (see Lebanon and Syria). All you can do realistically is hope that when the US withdraws that there is enough of a functioning Iraqi infrastructure to deal with the malcontents.
Michael |
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"I want the kids in bed by nine, the dog fed, the yard watered and the gate locked. And get a note to the milkman NO MORE CHEESE!" Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these, 'It might have been. |
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#28 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 15,990
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I still can't help thinking the best way is to divide Iraq into separate countries, or at least states, along tribal lines. |
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#29 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,387
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Re: Re: The Libertarian Party's exit plan for Iraq
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Science is like a blabbermouth that ruins the ending to a movie. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things - Ned Flanders |
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#30 |
Terrestrial Intelligence
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Terra Firma
Posts: 6,451
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It is not that I condemn such talks, even if they had 'blood on their hands'. I've heard far worse ideas to achieve peace than negotiations with the enemy. It's just all so delightfully ironic...
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So which one of my solutions do you think is the right one? Running to the UN perhaps? Sorry, has been tried.
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Here's an idea: instead of trying to invent what would be best for the Iraqis, why not organise a bunch of referenda on key issues to give them a minimal sense of self-determination? |
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Perhaps nothing is entirely true; and not even that! Multatuli |
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#31 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: S.E. USA. Sometimes bible country
Posts: 7,787
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Quote:
You're kidding, I hope. Maybe we should call on Randi to help you sort this out? ![]() Here's an idea: instead of trying to invent what would be best for the Iraqis, why not organise a bunch of referenda on key issues to give them a minimal sense of self-determination? What do you have against elections? Too minimal? |
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#32 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 15,990
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And besides, if you made each tribal area a state and kept Iraq as a republic, they could still have their nationalistic pride.
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#33 |
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,504
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/derail |
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#34 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 448
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Re: Re: The Libertarian Party's exit plan for Iraq
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#35 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 53,076
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Re: Re: Re: The Libertarian Party's exit plan for Iraq
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If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him. Lupus is Lupus tor central scrutineezer |
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#36 |
New Blood
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 21
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1) Most of the Iraqi security force is hired guns who are ready to run for the hills when the crap hits the fan. 2) Some of the rest of the members are sleeper insurgents who want to get their hands on some good weapons (resulting in us withholding arms from the force). We're in a damned nasty catch-22. Leave now, and everything goes to hell. Leave later, everything still goes to hell. Oops. |
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#37 |
Bufo Caminus Inedibilis
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Citrus Heights, CA
Posts: 15,468
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(Not that I'd blame you.) |
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#38 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: S.E. USA. Sometimes bible country
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#39 |
![]() Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,009
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Shane,
The Libertarian proposal does not explain to me how a phased withdrawal from Iraq will help win the "Global War On Terror". Is it the LP's position that the GWOT is spurious and of no use in fighting? If not; then how will conceeding the battlefield to the enemy help us to win or even to help prevent another 9/11 type attack? If so; then what is the LP's position on the threat of terrorism? Barring any profound revelations in your answer I have to say that the only sane option I can see is to continue to fight and support the new Iraqi democracy until the nation of Iraq is pacified. It's not a very sexy solution, but anything else seems to only serve to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory while simultaneously debasing the value of every life already lost in the current effort, both Iraqi and American. I put to you Shane that the LP's plan, if put into action, would not only serve up bloodshed in Iraq. It would be a much needed victory for Islamic fascism; which would cost the west much more bloodshed in lots of places far removed from Iraq. The war is an awful but militarily manageable thing right now. For a truly global disaster we'd need the LP to be in charge! -z |
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#40 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 15,990
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Quote:
"Any U.S. military policy should have the objective of providing security for the lives, liberty and property of the American people in the U.S. against the risk of attack by a foreign power. This objective should be achieved as inexpensively as possible and without undermining the liberties it is designed to protect." "We call for the withdrawal of the U.S. from commitments to engage in war on behalf of other governments and for abandonment of doctrines supporting military intervention such as the Monroe Doctrine."
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