help with qigong debunking

Deadlytoque

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Hello, all. I have a problem.

A friend of mine, who is a neuroscience student at a decent Canadian university, and who is usually a very rational and skeptical person, has one major weakness: he believes utterly in qigong and similar "magic". No amount of rational examination has dissuaded him from this belief, and I fear that he's starting to slip into belief of other quackery (therapeutic touch, for example) as an extension of this belief.

His birthday is coming up at the beginning of September, and I'd like to get him a book that deals with (disproves?) qigong in a rational and skeptical manner, preferably something that's fairly approachable and not too dense (when Fall semester starts he's going to have enough reading to do).

If no good suggestions come up, I'll probably get him a copy of Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark", which doesn't deal with qigong directly, that I remember, but was a damn good read and helped bolster my own skepticism.

Cheers,

The Deadly Toque
 
What specifically does your friend believe?

Does he believe that if he stands still and breathes very slowly while visualizing energy circling his body, that he will gain some mild benefits in stronger legs, and better posture?

I doubt if there is any written material to debunk that.

Or does he believe that if he wiggles around a certain way in a room full of other devotees, that the Living Buddha will implant a Falun wheel in his tantien, which will cure cncer, etc?
 
He believes that all things, whether living or non-living are surrounded by an as-yet-unmeasured energy field, which a trained practicioner (or talented amateur) can manipulate for various purposes, including healing, promotion of growth, and better health.
 
Well first of all you want to check out the forums here - there are many discussions on the subject.

Then you really have to have a look at Bullshido.com a frankly superb resource that discusses all the nonsense that gets tied up with martial arts.

Phrost is the website administrator of Bullshido.com and if you have any specific questions then you couls ask him or thaiboxerken, both of whom are regular posters and pretty darned knowledgeable about the whols area.

Or, the simplest solution: ask your friend what he claims qigong is capable of and type it up here.

Bottom line is - I bet he has recently started a martial arts course and is all excited about what he has heard is possible with qigong or chi or qi etc.

It isn't.

Here is a recent example of someone who was confused about what is possible with martial arts (and they weren't even going into the wackier mystical aspects).
The Ultimate Unstoppable Chi Warrior

Bottom line is, he probably won't appreciate what you tell him (as you can see from that thread), so maybe you could invite him to join this forum or bullshido.com to discuss it.

Frankly I think this forum is more gentle.

As a neuroscience student he should be aware of the limitations of nerve tranmission speed which renders quite a lot of chi's claims impossible instantly.
 
Deadlytoque said:
He believes that all things, whether living or non-living are surrounded by an as-yet-unmeasured energy field, which a trained practicioner (or talented amateur) can manipulate for various purposes, including healing, promotion of growth, and better health.
Click to expand...
It might be worth asking him if it is unmeasured how anyone can detect it.

And if he says people can 'sense' it then he needs a basic course in perception.

This is really poor from a potential neuroscientist. Is he like 2 weeks into the first term?
 
Deadlytoque said:
He believes that all things, whether living or non-living are surrounded by an as-yet-unmeasured energy field, which a trained practicioner (or talented amateur) can manipulate for various purposes, including healing, promotion of growth, and better health.
Click to expand...
Sorry to bombard with responses, but it might also be worth mentioning to him that if he, or anyone he knows can demonstrate these abilities then they can win a million dollars as part of the JREF Challenge.

They don't even need to explain how it works, merely demonstrate the ability.
 
Qi can be sensed. Many people do.

There is nothing else in the world as good as proper ancient/prehistoric qigong school pracitce, or internal martial arts. If what he practices is one of those, he can feel chi, the "runner's high" is laughable, and his health and rejuvenation will be incredible. Not likely going to convince someone with words not to believe that.

What you will feel at first is basically, exactly like an electrical machine like a scenar or maybe TENS. Electrical energy. Also heat, vaporous, thickness or just a strong magnetic force. At first in the hands and then whole body. I don't think hypnotism or placeobo can do that. Only qigong, or a machine I'd think.
 
Qi can be sensed. Many people do.
Click to expand...

People say things like this all the time.

First person to demonstrate it gets a cool million, and ushers in a new era of understanding.

Go for it!
 
Kilik said:
Qi can be sensed. Many people do.

There is nothing else in the world as good as proper ancient/prehistoric qigong school pracitce, or internal martial arts. If what he practices is one of those, he can feel chi, the "runner's high" is laughable, and his health and rejuvenation will be incredible. Not likely going to convince someone with words not to believe that.
Click to expand...
Let's firstly ignore the double negative there that appears to make the opposite point you were trying to make.

'Health' and 'rejuvenation' are to a certain extent objective measures. Could you please provide the evidence which backs up your claim?

No?

Oh dear.
 
If you're going to try and convince him to change his beliefs, you should first recognize that this is probably not a casual thing for him. If he's spent any time at all exploring Qigong he must have come across some very real physical effects that he either can't explain or is unwilling to explain.

Words can seem very impotent when compared to tingling sensations, feelings of heat, and the beneficial effects associated with meditation. Coupling these sensory experiences with peer pressure and respect for a teacher can be very intoxicating indeed.
 
I'm not entirely sure I want him to change his beliefs. It's hardly my place. I just want him to realize he's got a blind spot in his otherwise solid critical thinking, so that he can change his own beliefs, if and when he makes the realization.

I'll direct him towards the website, and try talking to him, but I was hoping for a print resource, something he can read between classes, or on the bus, since I only see him two or three times a year. It doesn't have to be totally devoted to qigong or martial arts, but a chapter or two on qi or even feng shui would be helpful.

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone. Now if only I could make some headway on the creationist ex-girlfriend... ah, lost causes.
 
Ashles said:
Well first of all you want to check out the forums here - there are many discussions on the subject.

Then you really have to have a look at Bullshido.com a frankly superb resource that discusses all the nonsense that gets tied up with martial arts.

Phrost is the website administrator of Bullshido.com and if you have any specific questions then you couls ask him or thaiboxerken, both of whom are regular posters and pretty darned knowledgeable about the whols area.

Or, the simplest solution: ask your friend what he claims qigong is capable of and type it up here.

Bottom line is - I bet he has recently started a martial arts course and is all excited about what he has heard is possible with qigong or chi or qi etc.

It isn't.

Here is a recent example of someone who was confused about what is possible with martial arts (and they weren't even going into the wackier mystical aspects).
The Ultimate Unstoppable Chi Warrior

Bottom line is, he probably won't appreciate what you tell him (as you can see from that thread), so maybe you could invite him to join this forum or bullshido.com to discuss it.

Frankly I think this forum is more gentle.

As a neuroscience student he should be aware of the limitations of nerve tranmission speed which renders quite a lot of chi's claims impossible instantly.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the plug, and yeah, this forum's a bit more tame. Ours is the forum equivalent of a no-holds-barred cage fight, which serves our purpose in getting through to the typically less than erudite crowd that makes up the bulk of the Martial Arts community. (Though surprisingly, we've got a good number of scientists and other scholarly types, which really baffles me at times).

Is the guy in question Asian? I ask only because I've run into a lot of cases of deep-rooted cultural superstitions and beliefs that they just can't let go of despite having a good education in scientific principles.

For a lot of Chinese people I've met, saying Qigong is BS is as offensive as bringing up how Jet Li can't really fight (Wushu is not a fighting art, it's a performance art).

So it can be very difficult to overcome these beliefs. Heck, there are a lot of self-described "skeptics" who cling to religious beliefs they know deep down are irrational.

I'd also like to add my vote for Thaiboxerken. He's one of the best skeptical forum posters I've run into and does a great job of dismantling pro-woo arguments.
 
In the hope of turning up some written material to share with your friend, I found the CSICOP site has some material on Qigong.

The first article I came across recounts the experiences of Sima Nan, a chinese journalist who was involved in the qigong movment in China for a long time, became disillusioned with its practices and finally acted to expose the fraud. He suffered for it.
Interestingly, he has also now set up an eqivelant of the JREF Million Dollar Prize in China.
The CSICOP article is here:

http://www.csicop.org/sb/9903/sima-nan.html

From the link at the bottom of that article, there is a list of other CSICOP material dealing with qigong.
The top of the list is a link to their review of this book on Amazon:

Qigong: Chinese Medicine or Pseudoscinece? - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1573922323/csicop/102-2805750-1233722

It doesn't act to completely refute qigong, but the authors ( chinese scientists ) refute the various 'psychic' claims associated with qigong. Unfortunately, the book seems to suffer from translation problems too. But it is apparently the first of its kind to be printed in english.

If the book is difficult to get hold of or suffers too much from ambiguous translation, you can at least print off some of the CSICOP material for your friend to read.

HTH
 
Deadlytoque,

If you are a real friend, buy him a Light Saber.

Pros:
1. Your friend have a new toy.
2. Divert his focus from QiGong.
3. You get to be sarcastic about his overtly imaginative pursue.
4. Since he is unlikely to learn Qigong successfully, at least he can wield his saber and pretend to use Qi to suffocate you. Like Dart Vader.
5. Like QiGong, the Lightsaber represent something cool.
But the road to tangible QiGong is as real as making a real lightsaber.

If you do buy him a light saber, may I register to be your friend too. :) .
 
interesting thread here on mind body interaction and DNA-
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=72887

Interesting article on the history of energy researches
http://twm.co.nz/energ.html

From a site called PubMed, National Library of medicine
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1353653&dopt=Abstract

Articles about energy development and technology
http://spectrum.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/14/3/149
http://www.diamondhead.net/sbtm.htm

Heat and electricity seem part of the spectrum of qi. It is why hot will go to cold and vice versa, and not something else. Energy expresses itself according to qi balance.
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8070042

Qi and sound
http://www.chiexplorer.com/infrasonic.html

article
http://www.somatics.de/Oshman.htm

Here's a interesting article. It really seems to be on the right track for future development. The future is in energy and fields of energy-
http://www.yorkkarate.com/Articles/Q i& Bioelectromagetic Energy.pdf

Qi theory fits in well with scientific discoveries
http://www.wwwolf.co.uk/drmunchie/articles/drmunchie-QBC-1and2.pdf

I doubt there's enough money in external qigong for a company to control external qi though.
http://www.qigonginstitute.org/html/papers/qigonglyphoma.pdf
http://www.qigonginstitute.org/html/papers.php

Meridians being discovered by machines?
http://www.cihs.edu/whatsnew/research.asp
http://www.cihs.edu/whatsnew/news_sum99.asp
http://www.spiritual.com.au/articles/healing/energeticmedicine_share.htm

I found those articles to be fairly interesting
http://www.qimaster.com/research_ext-qi1.php
http://nrizzoroberts.home.att.net/nancy.htm
http://gdvusa.org/research.html

ABHORRENT IDEAS IN SCIENCE. Lol
http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/abhor.html

Energy generating machines-
http://scenarworld.com/questions.php/
http://scenarworld.com/research/article5.php

"Direct action on the affected areas results in rhythmical contraction of a large number of the myofibrils of the skeletal muscles and smooth muscles of the blood vessel walls. "

It can make you involuntarily flap around. It measures skin resistance and then changes it's current and the person can't adapt

Immunity and the mind -
http://www.clubs.psu.edu/up/psufalundafa/homepage/meditation & medical research.htm
http://www.pureinsight.org/pi/articles/2002/5/20/195.html
http://clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2002/12/14/29727.html

Tai Chi boosts immunity?
http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/2003/A/20036202.html

another article
http://wwwsoc.nii.ac.jp/islis/en/journalE/abst212E.htm

So what's the big deal anyways? Ancient people knew that there were such things as fields of energy a long time ago.

From the writings of Hermes Trismesgus-
http://www.crystalinks.com/emerald14bw.html

"Preserve them and guard them,
hide them in symbols,
so the profane will laugh and renounce.
In every land, form ye the mysteries.
Make the way hard for the seeker to tread.

Thus will the weak and the wavering be rejected.
Thus will the secrets be hidden and guarded,

held till the time when the wheel shall be turned."
 
So doing even an average amount of exercise doesn't make anyone's hands and feet warm, and feel hot?

It does?!

Oh dear - silly notion in trouble here...
 
miscpetardedi22iv.png
 
My friend's not Asian, is neither is the guy who (I suspect) got him into this nonsense. He has started taking martial arts lessons, from a bona fide woo-woo (Creation "Science", including Diluvian nonsense, humans and dinosaurs side by side, and the rest; not to mention the fact that he once tried to convince myself and other partygoers that he was a "vampire slayer"... yes, he used the word "slayer" a la Buffy). I've done my best to simply remove the bad influence, but there's only so far I can go. Similarly, printing out a bunch of references and just plopping them on my friend's lap is a bit overt. I find education works better if the student comes to the understanding himself.

Anyway, again thanks for all your help.
 
With regards to the dinosaur nonsense then if you can somehow get him to visit the excellent Talk Origins then he will find all the answers he could ever want on the subject.

Influences like this person your friend is taking lessons from are really bad news. As you have demonstrated they often don't have just one weird belief, but a whole range that they interweave in a stupid way.
The irony is that if your friend was really interested in seeing the truth he would be able to in about 5 seconds flat, but at the moment it sounds like he wants to believe.

It's a shame you can't ask your friend to ask this guy to actually demonstrate his amazing Chi abilities. Aren't they suposed to be able to jump about 10 foot in the air and stuff?

Please let us know of any progresss or developments.
 
I said-

"What you will feel at first is basically, exactly like an electrical machine like a scenar or maybe TENS. Electrical energy. Also heat, vaporous feelings, and thickness or just a strong magnetic force, in a strong current. At first in the hands and then whole body. I don't think hypnotism or placeobo can do that. Only qigong, or a machine I'd think."

Moderate amounts of exercise, running, claisthenics, weights etc. Don't do this. Even if you do alot.

Measuring qi might be difficult becaue in it's most basic sense, it is simply influence or relationship. It might be like measuring an orbit, it's only seen or felt because of what it effects.
 
About the Asian thing. I've met several asians, and my brother knows one guy from China, who thinks it all nonsense.

I think they might be insecure in there position in their new country. Trying to be more western, or else they actually believe all this school stuff too extremely and absolutely. I don't know.

Skepticism probably has nothing to do with race, but more with upbringing.
 
Kilik said:
I said-

"What you will feel at first is basically, exactly like an electrical machine like a scenar or maybe TENS. Electrical energy. Also heat, vaporous feelings, and thickness or just a strong magnetic force. At first in the hands and then whole body. I don't think hypnotism or placeobo can do that. Only qigong, or a machine I'd think."

Moderate amounts of exercise, running, claisthenics, weights etc. Don't do this. Even if you do alot.

Measuring qi might be difficult becaue in it's most basic sense, it is simply influence or relationship. It might be like measuring an orbit, it's only seen or felt because of what it effects.
Click to expand...
Hoo boy. Here we go again.

Kilik, please do me a favour. List one thing in the world that you don't believe in. Just one. Then I'm going to post 20 links from disreputable sites that only try and further their own delisions.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: On this forum, there are quite a few martial artists. Probably in total, we have hundreds of years of experience between us. Noone here has seen any evidence of 'qi'. What does this tell you?

If 'The Force' existed, everyone would train to be Jedis. If 'Qi' exists, why can't everyone light candles with their fingers and jump 10 feet in the air?

Honestly, why do you think that is?
 
I wouldn't come here to get info on MAs. I practice several myself.

Not everyone has access to tradtional practices, not everyone can find a teacher. However, it is still pretty damn popular for something that was not as openly shown for so many years through history.

Some martial arts don't have a concept of qi, and don't develop it in practice. Some do.

For things I am not convinced of, I think others on here have said all there is to say, so there is not a whole lot of point in me talking about those topics. Oh, I don't believe in hypnotism shows.
 
Deadlytoque said:
My friend's not Asian, is neither is the guy who (I suspect) got him into this nonsense. He has started taking martial arts lessons, from a bona fide woo-woo (Creation "Science", including Diluvian nonsense, humans and dinosaurs side by side, and the rest; not to mention the fact that he once tried to convince myself and other partygoers that he was a "vampire slayer"... yes, he used the word "slayer" a la Buffy). I've done my best to simply remove the bad influence, but there's only so far I can go. Similarly, printing out a bunch of references and just plopping them on my friend's lap is a bit overt. I find education works better if the student comes to the understanding himself.

Anyway, again thanks for all your help.
Click to expand...

What martial art does/did he study? Perhaps it's a minimal contact one like Taekwondo or McDojo Karate.

I imagine he could stand to get some sense knocked into him. People who train realistically (full contact, full resistance) tend to have a more realistic understanding of their limitations. Just as people who are properly educated (advanced degrees in a science) tend to have a more scientific understanding of the world.

Your friend, I'm sorry to say, is just gullible. He probably has this poster on his wall:

newpost.jpg
 
Kilik said:

"What you will feel at first is basically, exactly like an electrical machine like a scenar or maybe TENS. Electrical energy. Also heat, vaporous feelings, and thickness or just a strong magnetic force, in a strong current. At first in the hands and then whole body. I don't think hypnotism or placeobo can do that. Only qigong, or a machine I'd think."
Click to expand...
Jeez...

Okay electrical energy, heat and magnetic force are measurable.

So either these forces are really generated and we can measure them - yet this has never happened.
Or they aren't actually being generated and your perceptions are playing tricks on you.

Either way, it doesn't look too good for the existence of Chi.

But never mind - you 'know' it exists.

Fine, I'll continue to 'know' that it doesn't.
And that reality currently seems to match my beliefs on the subject.
 
That's an arbitrary use of the term "reality"

Qi is really a new thing in the west. It isn't totally understood or studied. Yet.
 
If all these qi/chi/whatever believers could do half the things they say they can, I'd have signed up already. I mean, who doesn't fantasize about that sort of thing?
McDojo Karate
Click to expand...
I love that expression. If I ever sign up for martial arts lessons, I'll want the real thing. For the money, I figure it's better to gain an emergency can of whoop[keister] (any maybe lose a little bit of my belly), than some mushy self-esteem thing.
 
If you saw the docemntary on A&E called "The Martial Arts" I think, there was a Hard Qigong demonstration where the guy was really getting hit hard in the body in defferent areas, liver, ribs, abdomen. I really don't think there was anything fake about it.
 
Kilik said:
If you saw the docemntary on A&E called "The Martial Arts" I think, there was a Hard Qigong demonstration where the guy was really getting hit hard in the body in defferent areas, liver, ribs, abdomen. I really don't think there was anything fake about it.
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Wow. Another documentary huh?

That's certainly usually the best way to learn about hard science.

Nothing on TV is ever done for sensationalism or ratings. Certainly not in documentaries.

By the way, how do you hit someone in the liver? As opposed to the abdomen or ribs?
 
Abdomen and liver overlap to some degree obviously. A good body blow under the ribs you should feel in the liver I think. A good body blow is sometimes called a liver shot.

You'd have to see the documentary to see how hard the guy was getting hit and exactly where. THe main point is that, I think some people often view demonstrations of taking blows to be set up, and the hit is only done in the exact right spots where it can be taken. The one on A&E was real though, real hard power on real targets.
 
I cannot think of an area of the body that, if hit, I would describe as getting punched in the liver. The liver is behind the ribs.
You cannot get punched in the liver.

Look where the liver is

You would have to either punch through someone's ribs, or up through part of the surrounding digestive system.
If that had happened to him, he would have been intantly hospitalised.

So it's a nice visceral sounding description you provided Kilik, but obviously incorrect.

And can you explain what any of this has got to do with Qigong or Chi or anything?

So the guy is prepared to get hit hard on TV. What does that demonstrate?
 
Ashles said:
So the guy is prepared to get hit hard on TV. What does that demonstrate?
Click to expand...
Wasn't that one of the things Houdini did? As far as I can tell, it's just toughness mixed with intelligent methods of handling force, momentum, and all that stuff to minimize the damage done.
 
It's not really a qigong term. It's more a boxing term or kickboxing term. It's a correct term becaues it's used. Can't blame me if it's "technically" not correct, I didn't invent it. But if you take a good body shot, you may start thinking of it as a liver hit.

However, regardless of style, a powerful punch to a good target, is a good punch to a good target. So IMAist also do liver hits, but don't necessarily call it that.

As for houdini, I'd have to see the hits he took to see if they could compare.
 
Kilik said:
If you saw the docemntary on A&E called "The Martial Arts" I think, there was a Hard Qigong demonstration where the guy was really getting hit hard in the body in defferent areas, liver, ribs, abdomen. I really don't think there was anything fake about it.
Click to expand...
What is the documentary supposed to show? Was the guy hitting using Qigong or the guy getting hit? Was either of them responding differently than someone not using Qigong?
 
Both were using qigong. A hit like that could drop me, and probably most people I think. Even a fighter or MAist.
 
BronzeDog said:


I love that expression. If I ever sign up for martial arts lessons, I'll want the real thing. For the money, I figure it's better to gain an emergency can of whoop[keister] (any maybe lose a little bit of my belly), than some mushy self-esteem thing.
Click to expand...

Yeah, you have to specify that because there are some really good Karate schools out there (usually Kyokushin).

This video explains the difference between real, and BS training better than I could here:

www.bullshido.com/videos/sbg2.wmv

Kilik, would you volunteer to have me kick you in the liver?

Please?
 
I think I'll pass. Though maybe we could have some sort of kicking contest? A two way thing? I would suggest the nerve on the side of the leg as the target rather than the liver, more my level. No just kidding, I don't need unnecessary hits. Hard qigong is not something I really do that much. Just very basic stuff.
 
Kilik said:
It's not really a qigong term. It's more a boxing term or kickboxing term. It's a correct term becaues it's used. Can't blame me if it's "technically" not correct, I didn't invent it.
Click to expand...
But you didn't actually use any kickboxing 'term'. You simply wrote:
there was a Hard Qigong demonstration where the guy was really getting hit hard in the body in defferent areas, liver, ribs, abdomen
Click to expand...
So your post wasn't "technically" incorrect, it was just incorrect.

It was only in a subsequent post you started referring to a "liver shot". But that isn't relevent either as it is only an expression, rather than a literal description.

But if you take a good body shot, you may start thinking of it as a liver hit.
Click to expand...

Maybe, but that wouldn't be what it was.
An actually bruised liver is very serious and you would be hospitalised.

However, regardless of style, a powerful punch to a good target, is a good punch to a good target. So IMAist also do liver hits, but don't necessarily call it that.
Click to expand...

No they don't. This is incorrect.
Nobody punches anyone else with any intention of doing damge to their liver in any form of martial art practice or exhibition whatsoever.

Some information on a bruised liver
If a fall or blow to the abdomen, right flank, or right lower chest is followed by abdominal pain that is worsened by pressing on the right upper quadrant, a torn or bruised liver should be considered. The victim is at risk for severe internal bleeding and should be observed for signs of shock. Evacuate him as soon as possible.
Click to expand...

I am being very precise about the language used here because this is an excellent example of how expressions, and inaccurate descriptions can create false impressions about Martial Arts. And how a little information about Martial Arts can be very misleading.

You have inadvertantly made a very good point here Kilik.

Also, you claim to practise several martial arts yourself, but your posts certainly do not give that impression.
 
It's liver shot. You might call it a shot to the ribs, or body, but the common term I've heard is liver shot.

Read my posts more, many schools are going to say liver shot, and I wouldn't really say they're "wrong".
 
Kilik said:
It's liver shot. You might call it a shot to the ribs, or body, but the common term I've heard is liver shot.

Read my posts more, many schools are going to say liver shot, and I wouldn't really say they're "wrong".
Click to expand...
They could call it an alien spaceship if they like.

But it doesn't change the fact that it isn't an actual blow to the liver any more than a 'helicopter' move in breakdancing would allow you to hover.
It is a 'term' or 'expression' that does not accurately represent what it describes.
 
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