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#1 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,150
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More sCAM from Prince of Wales
Back in April I was interviewed by Freshminds, a market research agency in London. They are writing what they call The Smallwood Report, which aims to assess the cost-effectiveness of CAM. Christopher Smallwood is the lead consultant for this. He was formerly chief economic adviser for Barclays Bank. I have been told about the content of the present draft. As with the patient guide recently issued by HRH's Foundation, the matter of objective evidence is largely ignored in this report, and data are selectively reported. It is clearly intended to influence NHS policy in favour of sCAM. Originally the report was to be funded by HRH's lobby group the Foundation for Integrated Health, but I understand that HRH is funding it directly now. The report is allegedly unscientific, outrageously biassed, and misleading. Certainly the first draft of my interview, which I saw, had to be substantially amended. Freshminds has no experience whatever in health economics or indeed in any health area. This is of course a job for NICE, but the UK government continues to sideline that competent authority and prefers its sycophantic relationship with the Royal Family. The report is scheduled to be sprung on the public and ministers on 12th October. HRH and his gong-chasing cronies must not be allowed to get away with this unchallenged.
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No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little. Edmund Burke (1729 - 1797) Blog - Majikthyse |
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#2 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 28,756
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Bump.
I think some UK readers missed this. |
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#3 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 36,654
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Re: More sCAM from Prince of Wales
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#4 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,150
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Re: Re: More sCAM from Prince of Wales
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BTW sorry to display my ignorance but what does Soapy mean by `bump'? |
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No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little. Edmund Burke (1729 - 1797) Blog - Majikthyse |
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#5 |
Mad Scientist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 13,749
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Quote:
I wanted to post earlier, but was quite disgusted with it all. I'm in Canada and only can shake my head. I do appreciate your posting this here. It's a real eye opener. What can anyone do? |
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Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it! |
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#6 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,729
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Become a republican (and therefore a traitor).
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#7 |
Tea-Time toad
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 15,516
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Quote:
Although given the attitude of the DOH and the opinions of our elected representatives as shown on this thread make me even more depressed. On the positive side, HRH got a lot of flack in the media last time he tried to promote woo over medicine. |
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#8 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,117
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Well as we're discussing the Prince of Wales and quakary I thought people might find this article in the Sunday Times interesting:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspap...734484,00.html |
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#9 |
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No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little. Edmund Burke (1729 - 1797) Blog - Majikthyse |
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#10 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Quote:
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Mind you, they shouldn't have too much trouble getting "the Queen of England" to sign up as well, I suppose... |
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#11 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,363
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Re: Re: Re: More sCAM from Prince of Wales
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Having now received the paper that features in the linked thread, it is another part of the same picture: an appeal to judge the therapy by some measure of overall efectiveness on the basis that this is more "real" that properly done trials. Interestingly, that paper was funded by a German insurance company. Letting the vipers judge the effectiveness of snakeoil! Maybe they like homeopathy because it is cheap and useless whereas conventional medicine can be expensive and useless for a number of chronic problems. |
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"i'm frankly surprised homeopathy does as well as placebo" Anonymous homeopath. "Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment; you must also be right." (Robert Park) Is the pen is mightier than the sword? Its effectiveness as a weapon is certainly enhanced if it is sharpened properly and poked in the eye of your opponent. |
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#12 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 28,756
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Interestingly, that paper was funded by a German insurance company. Letting the vipers judge the effectiveness of snakeoil!
Maybe they like homeopathy because it is cheap and useless whereas conventional medicine can be expensive and useless for a number of chronic problems.- Badly Shaved Monkey I have wondered for some time why insurance companies had not concluded this. It seems they have. If the public truly prefer having their hand held to "real" treatment (And if the "real " treatment is useless, then why should they not?) it seems reasonable for insurers to take this course. In the sort of conditions referred to in the links, it may make no difference. In type 1 diabetes, to use Rolfe's example, it will. I can hear the malpractice lawyers sharpening their quills... |
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#13 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Quote:
OK, they aren't really going to do this, but the interest of an insurance company is not necessarily going to be the same as that of its customers. |
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#14 |
Tea-Time toad
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 15,516
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Quote:
Charlie is not part of the government, he is funding this research through his own foundation, he isn't giving Ministers advance copies, they get it at the same time as Joe public. I doubt that Charlie’s report will actually have much of an impact, the amount of weight which is lent to external reports by govt bodies is minimal, unless the report supports polices which have already be signed up to by ministers. |
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#15 |
Tea-Time toad
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#16 |
Mostly harmless
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Quote:
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__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#17 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 28,209
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#18 |
Guest
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 21,718
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Quote:
When I read your post the first time, I thought you wrote "Except when Tony's got a bit of a tricky dick, of course." Then I thought, "What, they don't have Viagra in the UK?" |
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#19 |
Tea-Time toad
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#20 |
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#21 |
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Quote:
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No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little. Edmund Burke (1729 - 1797) Blog - Majikthyse |
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#22 |
Adult human female
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 50,292
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Quote:
I was lucky, with me the episodes got less frequent and I hardly get it at all now. With Blair I gather it was happening quite often, maybe because of his stressful job, and they decided to do a surgical procedure to destroy the little bit of the bundle of His that was causing the problem. Very clever stuff, guiding tiny instruments up the aorta to the heart from an incision in the groin, and pinpointing just the area that had to be cauterised. Quite a nice example of eliminating symptoms by accurate diagnosis of the cause and then eliminating that. The media sensationalised it quite a lot, playing on the obvious connection in the public's minds between a "heart problem" and ischaemic heart disease, but in fact there was no suggestion at all that he has heart disease of the sort usually associated with middle-aged politicians. Same with Lizzie. They let her play around with Peter Fisher ("Homoeopath to the Queen", God help us) when there's nothing wrong with her, but if she gets anything real, you can bet your life Peter Fisher won't even get in the door. Rolfe. |
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#23 |
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#24 |
Tea-Time toad
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 15,516
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Quote:
I think that it is worth bearing im mind the comment Geni made earlier, though HMG seem to be all in favour of sCAM on the NHS, funding for sCAM is not partuclarly forthcomming. |
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#25 |
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Join Date: Jul 2004
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Quote:
The govt has been feeding funds to HRH's Foundation for years. Recently of course there was the famous patient guide, which despite the requirement issued by Dept of Health when it issued the funds, studiously avoided any discussion of evidence for efficacy. I know this, because I obtained the DoH docs under the Freedom of Information Act. Most posters here also know about the GBP900k shelled out to the Foundation by the govt for `regulation' of sCAM. Although this Smallwood Report is not directly funded by the govt, it will be welcomed with open arms by ministers. This is because a sort of hysteria has arisen over `patient choice' - this is now the engine for driving NHS decisions, not evidence. My guess is that someone reckons it's electoral good news. While all this is going on, NICE is waiting in the wings in anguish (I have this on good authority, but must protect my sources). NICE can only respond to requests for appraisals by ministers, and can't take its own initiatives. This is very convenient for the govt, which can simply ignore NICE and set up HRH and co as the source of all knowledge on sCAM. I'm not sure how anyone can say that `funding for sCAM is not particularly forthcoming'. The NHS has no idea how much it spends on it. I have been researching this for about 18 months and have got nowhere. There are no decent surveys of spending, simply because it isn't recorded anywhere. The idea of measuring cost-effectiveness when we don't know the cost is nonsense. But Smallwood et al, with no professional track record whatever in health economics, claims to be able to do so. This govt cares so little about objective evidence that if the cat at number 10 says sCAM is cost-effective, they'll believe it. This is a pernicious and dishonest campaign that HRH is waging, for personal reasons. He is abusing an unearned position in public life, for which he is totally unqualified. While I'm in full flow, HRH has another outlet for sCAM via The King's Fund, of which he is patron. This organisation dishes out money left right and centre, not for research but actually for treatment. One example is acupuncture for hepatitis C - there's a pot of money for patients wanting it. Never mind that there's no evidence for it. |
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No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little. Edmund Burke (1729 - 1797) Blog - Majikthyse |
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#26 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Quote:
So I guess they are just going to guess what HRH wants the answer to be and make up some numbers? |
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#27 |
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Quote:
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No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little. Edmund Burke (1729 - 1797) Blog - Majikthyse |
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#28 |
Tea-Time toad
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 15,516
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Quote:
As for what to do, write to your MP (and any other MP you think may listen), ask them to write to the DOH on this (letters from MP’s to Ministers get Ministerial responses, Joe public writing to a Minster just gets an official reply), make sure that you follow up any response you get with more detailed questions/ comments, this usually prevents civil service correspondence units from just churning out standard lines. Ask your MP to table PQ's on this issue. Badger the members of the health select committee (names available here ) I'm perfectly willing to rattle off a few letters (in government circles letters are usually given more weight than e-mail fro some reason), and I am happy to post any responses I get here. I others wish to do the same I would recommend not using standard letters, as all you will get back in response are standard letters. Ok, what major points should I include in my initial letters? |
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#29 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Quote:
BTW does anyone on this forum have Ian Gibson as their MP? He is an honorary member of the Institute of Biology and recommended to me as a possible ally. WRT questions to ask - well all the usual ones really. Does the government believe that NHS money should be spent only on medicines with proven efficacy and safety? Who does the government think is the competent body for assessing cost-effectiveness? You can ask until the cows come home but you will always get evasive answers. I have achieved more by using the new Freedom of Information Act. Just email the Dept of Health media office, be very specific on what you want, and they have to give it to you. But I'm not saying don't try your MP. As I say, if they all got such requests parliament as a whole would start to take some notice. It's the vanishingly small number of people who care enough to do anything which constrains us so badly. |
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#30 |
Tea-Time toad
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 15,516
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Quote:
FOI is useful for getting info in the public domain, and it is a pain in the arse for civil servants, but it doesn’t really get much ministerial attention. Five or six letters from MP's in short succession however will get ministerial attention. Tabling PQ's (epically oral PQ's or starred PQ's in the lords) is also quite a good way to stir up departmental action. What I need though are some "hooks" on which to hang my letters, some salient facts, such as the info you supplied on the fact that the NHS does not track spend on sCAM. Any more bits like that would be very useful. Thanks. |
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#31 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Quote:
1. You can ask Lord Warner why the govt does not follow the recommendations of the 2000 House of Lords Report, and get NICE to appraise CAM. 2. You can also ask him why the govt granted GBP18m to upgrade the London Homeopathic Hospital. I have the business case document for this and there is nothing in it about value for money in terms of patient benefit. 3. You can ask the sec of state for health why the govt thinks evidence of efficacy is not important for the forthcoming regulation of acupuncture and herbal medicine - for which they gave almost GBP1m to HRH's Foundation. PM me if you like for more. You are absolutely right - we need 5 or 6 letters on a subject to get any attention. |
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No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little. Edmund Burke (1729 - 1797) Blog - Majikthyse |
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#32 |
Tea-Time toad
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 15,516
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Quote:
Thanks for these, I will draft a letter in the next couple of days, and see what results I get. |
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#33 |
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The blogs are alive with stuff on HRH. Here is an example. Has he gone over the top this time? By that I mean, is his public position starting to be eroded at last?
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No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little. Edmund Burke (1729 - 1797) Blog - Majikthyse |
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#34 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 28,756
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I seriously suspect Charlie is the worst thing that could happen to the sCAM movement, from their point of view.
Let's face it, like him or loathe him, the fellow is...well, he's a Charlie, isn't he? I think the more rope he has to run with, the harder the jerk will be when he hits the end. |
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#35 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,150
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UK forum members - be sure to listen to BBC Radio 4 at 0700 tomorrow (24th). There will be an item about this Freshminds scandal. It will also be carried in The Times.
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No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little. Edmund Burke (1729 - 1797) Blog - Majikthyse |
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#36 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,363
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Quote:
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__________________
"i'm frankly surprised homeopathy does as well as placebo" Anonymous homeopath. "Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment; you must also be right." (Robert Park) Is the pen is mightier than the sword? Its effectiveness as a weapon is certainly enhanced if it is sharpened properly and poked in the eye of your opponent. |
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#37 |
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Yes - but it was only a news headline. Maybe it will escalate during the day.
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#38 |
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btw, BBC Radio 4 is available on the net - start here. |
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#39 |
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#40 |
Graduate Poster
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Quote:
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Les, could the witching hour be upon us? |
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