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Old 9th October 2005, 01:16 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
There was an article about Charlie's preoccupations in the Guardian the other day: http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1555723,00.html
"Deliberately ignorant and vexatious." Yup, that's our Charlie.
I really liked Professon Michael Baum's response to the Prince's daffy notion that coffee enemas can cure cancer.
"My authority comes with a knowledge built on 40 years of study and 25 years active involvement in cancer research. Your power and authority rest upon an accident of birth."
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Old 10th October 2005, 01:53 AM   #82
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I find an odd acceptance (Both in the foreword and the report itself) that some treatment canniot be evidence based. This I find disturbing. To me, behaviour is either evidence based or it's imagination based. I can't think of a third possibility.

But it prompts me to ask how much of conventional medicine is evidence based. The recent Nobel award for connecting ulcers to H.pylori is a case in point. Prior to that discovery, was conventional ulcer treatment based on evidence or on belief?
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Old 10th October 2005, 05:45 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Soapy Sam View Post
I find an odd acceptance (Both in the foreword and the report itself) that some treatment canniot be evidence based. This I find disturbing. To me, behaviour is either evidence based or it's imagination based. I can't think of a third possibility.

But it prompts me to ask how much of conventional medicine is evidence based. The recent Nobel award for connecting ulcers to H.pylori is a case in point. Prior to that discovery, was conventional ulcer treatment based on evidence or on belief?
It was based on evidence, but incomplete evidence. Antacids do help in the symptomatic treatment of ulcers. But the evidence for H pylori was better - that's science in operation.
This widely held canard about most medicine not being evidence-based is increasingly trotted out these days. It is wrong. About 80% of general practice decisions are evidence-based. Sadly there is a broad enough spectrum of doctors around to account for the other 20%.

BTW the lay media are avidly searching for expert opinion on the Smallwood Report - I had 2 calls last Thursday. Not that I'm claiming to be an expert!
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Old 11th October 2005, 09:02 AM   #84
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Surely canards should be waddled out? (rather than trotted).

I was not aware this was a widely held belief. I'm not a medic at all, though several friends are. I first became aware of them using the term "evidence-based" about five or six years ago. I was horrified that they seemed to consider it a "new" idea.
One forgets that neither Fleming nor Pasteur were doctors.
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Old 11th October 2005, 02:09 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Soapy Sam View Post
Surely canards should be waddled out? (rather than trotted).
How about floated? That works nicely in all senses.

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam View Post
I was not aware this was a widely held belief. I'm not a medic at all, though several friends are. I first became aware of them using the term "evidence-based" about five or six years ago. I was horrified that they seemed to consider it a "new" idea.
One forgets that neither Fleming nor Pasteur were doctors.
I agree the fact that "evidence-based medicine" is new jargon term does seem bizarre: what the hell have these people been playing at up 'til now? Really, what it covers is a class of things done in medicine that have been "grandfathered" into use and never critically examined. My little world is especially prone to this problem lacking, as it does, a massive bureaucratic and research infrastructure to allow even simple analyses of clinical practice.

It's a good thing, but whether it will make much difference remains to be seen. The equine vets in the UK have had a couple of organised attempts at EBM. The trouble is that the only feasible method is a survey of people's approaches to a clinical problem and asking for outcomes. They may throw up interesting data, but their unblinded and uncontrolled nature makes them weak. The real question is whether they can be usefully exploited as the basis for controlled studies.
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Old 12th October 2005, 02:15 AM   #86
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"... lacking, as it does, a massive bureaucratic and research infrastructure to allow even simple analyses of clinical practice." -BSM

I understand. Ironically, this is very similar to comments made by Cam practitioners when I have demanded evidence from them. It's usually followed by an attack on the pharmas.

I agree that canards should be floated. This facilitates torpedoing and sinking.
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Old 12th October 2005, 05:38 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Soapy Sam View Post
I understand. Ironically, this is very similar to comments made by Cam practitioners when I have demanded evidence from them. It's usually followed by an attack on the pharmas.
A. At least we try

B. We do have properly licensed drugs for quite a lot of what we do

C. We parasitise the knowledge of our medical colleagues

For the sCAMmers it is;

D. None of the above
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Old 13th October 2005, 04:31 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey View Post
A. At least we try

B. We do have properly licensed drugs for quite a lot of what we do

C. We parasitise the knowledge of our medical colleagues
You forgot one. We're prepared to re-evaluate our procedures and change our minds if the evidence warrants it. Never heard of a SCAM merchant who was even marginally prepared to consider that there might be a better way, or that he might be mistaken.

If you're Kumar, of course, that shows the superiority of SCAM, because it is absolute and never-changing, which proves that it's perfect. While the susceptibility of real medicine to change with newer and better information proves that it's wrong and imperfect.

For most of us, though, the ability to progress and improve is seen as positive.

Rolfe.
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Old 13th October 2005, 06:55 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
If you're Kumar, of course, that shows the superiority of SCAM, because it is absolute and never-changing, which proves that it's perfect. While the susceptibility of real medicine to change with newer and better information proves that it's wrong and imperfect.

For most of us, though, the ability to progress and improve is seen as positive.
We're getting exactly the same thing from Hammy in a thread about evolution. He keeps complaining about the theory of evolution being revised to fit the facts.
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Old 13th October 2005, 08:14 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
We're getting exactly the same thing from Hammy in a thread about evolution. He keeps complaining about the theory of evolution being revised to fit the facts.
Excellent!

Anyone heard this before- "Science was wrong about [insert anything here which has been corrected or improved since 1600], so it could be wrong about [Insert something very improbable] now!"
(Chorus) You're just closed minded!...etc ad nauseam.

Still if Peter Hain says it's true, that clinches it.

Who is Peter Hain exactly?


ETA- ROLFE! Cleanout your inbox.

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Old 13th October 2005, 08:18 AM   #91
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Five Apples, #8
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Old 13th October 2005, 09:28 AM   #92
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I shall shamelessly cut and paste that.

Brousing the report I note that many patients - especially poor ones- are said to value the longer consultation given by Camaratchiks*. I imagine this would be equally true of private doctors. (Personally. I'd be listening for a meter running).

Conversely, it says that while accupuncture is expensive if done privately, cost savings would result if NHS trained puncturers were used, who would be able to treat three patients an hour.
Now it takes no genius to see where this is headed...

(Imagine Graham Chapman and John Cleese, in drag, exiting a medical centre in the near future.)
"Well! These NHS accupuncturists! Treat you like a bloody sausage! Slap you on the bench, stab your bum with a fork, then it's out the door! Never as much as ask if you had a nice holiday!"

"Mmm! I've had it with 'em. There's a new Turkish GP started up over our Dot's hairdresser's. Real stethoscope, fez and all. Mavis seen him last week for her piles. Prescribed some topical ointment and a week off work! Fixed her up a treat!"

"Ooh.A week off work. Lovely. I remember the doctors we had in the old days. Always prescribing things and signing lines to get off work. Now it's all bloody efficiency and cost savin's. Go in with terminal smoking and it's ten minutes under the needle, quick chakra alignment and you're back in the chicken factory before you know what's hit you. That's New Labour. Efficiency, efficiency, efficiency."

Joking aside, I wonder how many GPs will see this as a way to get the "persistent, recidivist incurables" -ie the old and the poor - out of their waiting room and into the homoeopath, so they can get on with treating the young and the curable.
Is this the start of government sanctioned two tier, rich and poor medicine on the NHS? Let the pensioners quietly expire?

Are you SURE it's not Gordon running the NHS?

* Camsters? We need an alternative to "Therapist".

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Old 13th October 2005, 12:52 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Soapy Sam View Post
* Camsters? We need an alternative to "Therapist".
sCAMmers
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Old 14th October 2005, 10:02 AM   #94
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Edzard Ernst and his team have carried out their own review of the available evidence on whether sCAM would save the NHS money, published in this week's BMJ. Admittedly, it wasn't a very big review as there didn't seem to be much evidence. It doesn't come to the same conclusions as Smallwood and co.

Interestingly, the links from the BMJ front page to the editorial on sCAM and this study read:
Quote:
Complementary and alternative therapies

* Should be included in reviews and guidelines
* Seem cost effective
The first bullet point leads to an editorial supporting sCAM, the second ("Seem cost effective") leads to the study suggesting that sCAMs would actually represent an additional cost for the NHS.


There's a story about these articles on the Times website today.
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Old 15th October 2005, 03:04 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
There's a story about these articles on the Times website today.
"The Prince himself defended his attitude on Wednesday at a conference organised by his Foundation for Integrated Health. He said: “I seem to have attracted a remarkable degree of controversy for something as apparently harmless as advocating a whole-person, holistic approach to healthcare."

If only that were true.
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Old 15th October 2005, 06:26 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey View Post
"The Prince himself defended his attitude on Wednesday at a conference organised by his Foundation for Integrated Health. He said: “I seem to have attracted a remarkable degree of controversy for something as apparently harmless as advocating a whole-person, holistic approach to healthcare."

If only that were true.
That's it ... I've had enough of the Clown Prince. I'm certainly not voting for him when he next comes up for re-election.

Oh ... wait a minute ...
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Old 15th October 2005, 03:35 PM   #97
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Quote:
I seem to have attracted a remarkable degree of controversy for something as apparently harmless as advocating a whole-person, holistic approach to healthcare.
I'm sure there are lots of dead people who'd like to speak up. Unfortunately, only people like us can give them a voice... unless Sylvia feels like going for the million.
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Old 1st December 2005, 08:41 AM   #98
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Bump.

Has there been any further criticism of this report?
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Old 20th March 2008, 10:21 AM   #99
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He’s been indulging himself again.

This time it was at today’s 5th annual Integrated Health Awards ceremony in London. Here's part of the speech he gave:

Quote:
Prince in warning on nature's power

The Prince of Wales has warned that dismissing the healing power of nature would be "sheer folly".

He called for a greater recognition of the benefits of combining conventional and complementary treatment during a speech at an awards ceremony to recognise pioneering health projects.

-snip-

…he said: "What on earth is the point of throwing away our lifeline; of abandoning priceless knowledge and wisdom accumulated over thousands of years relating to the treatment of the human condition by natural means?

"It is sheer folly, it seems to me, to forget that we are part of nature and to imagine we can survive on this earth as if we are merely a mechanical process divorced from and in opposition to the unity of the world around us."

He added: "That is why for the last 25 years, I have been determined to encourage the establishment of a truly integrated approach to healthcare in the UK.

"A system where the most valuable strengths of science and technology and all that they offer, can be aligned with the best that can be identified and deployed through complementary measures and time tested traditional therapies."

http://ukpress.google.com/article/AL...p792tfYHjVG6fQ

And here’s the expert’s view…

Quote:
Creating a new type of medicine that stands for incorporation of unproven practices into medical routine would, however, be a violation of our duty to be responsible advisors to patients. Responsible advice has to be based on evidence, not on ideology. Decision-makers rightly insist on data, not anecdote.

In conclusion, the term integrative medicine is superfluous since it stands either for wholeperson medicine (a concept already a part of primary care) or for the promotion of integrating well-documented CAM modalities (already being done with evidence-based medicine).

The danger of integrative medicine lies in creating a smokescreen behind which dubious practices are pushed into routine healthcare. I believe this would be a serious disservice to all involved—not least, to our patients.

Second thoughts on integrative medicine
Edzard Ernst, MD, PhD, FRCP, FRCPEd

http://www.jfponline.com/pdf%2F5402%...icineForum.pdf
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Old 20th March 2008, 01:43 PM   #100
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Yeah, I marvel at the awesome power of nature to heal the human body every time I have a cold and it gets better. Spooky.
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Old 20th March 2008, 04:17 PM   #101
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The entire speech is now available online…

Quote:
-snip-

We all know I suspect of people who visit an acupuncturist, maybe adopt a regime involving changes of diet and the use of homeopathic remedies, seek out an osteopath; or find to the amazement of their rationalist selves that they benefit from herbal procedures.

These “rationalist selves” would be enormously, relieved to see the effectiveness of these treatments proven through the “double-blind randomized controlled trial” – the gold-standard of medical research. However, we know that some complementary and alternative medicine disciplines (and indeed other forms of medical or surgical intervention) do not lend themselves to this research method. However, scientific evaluation is nonetheless important and possible.

Instead, it has been suggested that we need a research method for complementary treatment that is, to use that awful expression, “fit for purpose”. Something that is entirely practical – what has been called “applied” research – which takes into account the whole person and the whole treatment as it is actually given in the surgery or the hospital. Something that might offer us a better idea of the cost-effectiveness of any given approach. It would also help to provide the right sort of evidence that health service commissioners require when they decide which services they wish to commission for their patients.

So before I leave the subject of evidence, I can only suggest that researchers and commissioners also look at the whole issue of safety in the context of cost-effectiveness. The well known medical dictum, “First do no harm”, is particularly relevant here as many unconventional treatments have fewer side effects than their conventional equivalent and are often – and I say this with the voice of first hand experience – more pleasant for the patient.

Ladies and Gentlemen, believe it or not I have been advocating the development of a truly integrated health system – one rooted in appropriate regulation and supported by rigorous scientific evidence – for the best part of twenty five years. Perhaps it will take another quarter of a century to see its realization. But even if it takes a great deal of effort I hope you will feel that such an approach is surely a worthy and proper ambition, given – if nothing else – the need not only to reduce the rising cost of the drugs bill for the N.H.S., but also the requirement to find ways of easing demands on clinicians to treat a whole series of man-made chronic conditions that it is reported take up some 80 per cent of doctors’ time and cause a great deal of unnecessary suffering to many patients.

As well as congratulating today’s winners, I hope you will forgive me highlighting just a couple of examples of how my Foundation is making a difference for the better in this whole area.

You may have become aware, through extensive media coverage, of the creation and yet-to-be-launched Complementary and Natural Healthcare Council, which is the culmination of a five year programme of regulatory reform between my Foundation for Integrated Health and the Department of Health. The Council will be responsible for introducing a single regulatory system for complementary health, through a professional structure.

In addition, the Foundation is introducing a pilot scheme at Barts and the London Medical School which develops a coherent module of integrated health as part of basic medical training. In time, it could be extended to the U.K.’s other medical schools.

More…
http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/speechesandarticles/

Since when has HRH been an advocate for “rigorous scientific evidence”?
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Old 21st March 2008, 01:47 AM   #102
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Grrr... where's the smiley for ::boiling blood:: ?

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Old 21st March 2008, 04:05 AM   #103
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This bit struck me:

Originally Posted by HRH
…or find to the amazement of their rationalist selves that they benefit from herbal procedures

Maybe I misunderstand, but those of us on the sceptical side of the fence are not remotely amazed by the effect of some herbal procedures because we know that they can contain active ingredients in significant doses. So does HRH himself not even know the difference between the types of CAM he's promoting?
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Old 16th April 2008, 11:28 PM   #104
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Published in The Times today:

Quote:
Prince of Wales's guide to alternative medicine ‘inaccurate’

The Prince of Wales is being challenged to withdraw two guides promoting alternative medicine, by scientists who say that they make misleading and inaccurate claims about its benefits.

The documents, published by the Prince and his Foundation for Integrated Health, misrepresent scientific evidence about therapies such as homoeopathy, acupuncture and reflexology, say the authors of a new evaluation of alternative treatments.

In a letter to The Times, Edzard Ernst, Professor of Complementary Medicine at the University of Exeter, and Simon Singh, a science writer and broadcaster, call on the Prince to recall the publications, one of which was produced with a £900,000 grant from the Department of Health. “They both contain numerous misleading and inaccurate claims concerning the supposed benefits of alternative medicine,” they say. “The nation cannot be served by promoting ineffective and sometimes dangerous alternative treatments.”

Professor Ernst and Dr Singh say the Prince accepted the importance of “rigorous scientific evidence” to alternative medicine, in an article he wrote for The Times in 2000, and point out that more than 4,000 research studies have since been published.

They analysed these studies and previous research for their new book, Trick or Treatment: Alternative Medicine on Trial, finding that only a few treatments, such as some herbal medicines and acupuncture for pain relief, are backed up by the evidence that the Prince demanded. “The majority of alternative therapies appear to be clinically ineffective and many are downright dangerous,” the letter says, and it calls on the Prince to withdraw the publications Complementary Health Care: A Guide for Patients and The Smallwood Report.

More…
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/lif...cle3760857.ece

Good to see the scientists keeping the pressure on.
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Old 17th April 2008, 12:19 AM   #105
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Sigh.....even The Times can't get the facts right. The £900,000 was for the regulation scheme not for the patient guide.

I am curious as to HRH's thought processes (if there are any), regarding evidence. He denigrates the RCT in the context of CAM, and then demands the best of scientific evidence. What does he think evidence is? Oh that there were a single member of the Royal Family who bothered to study any science. But I suppose academic pursuits such as the history of art are more appropriate for their station in society (as well as qualifying one for a commission in Granny's forces).
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Old 17th April 2008, 11:59 AM   #106
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Edzard Ernst v. David Peters on Radio 4's PM programme tonight.
Go to the Radio 4 Listen Again page and scroll down to PM - it's about 47 mins in.
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Old 17th April 2008, 12:14 PM   #107
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Lots of weaselling from Peters. We get the usual guff about conventional medicine not helping some people with chronic conditions (as we know - in Scamland that's evidence in favour of your nonsense of choice).
When Ernst all but calls him a liar about the original intent of the guide (which was to contain the evidence for SCAM), Peters replies "I can only deal with what's on the site - it's not trying to present vast amounts of evidence - it's intended as a useful guide for people with long term problems..."
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Old 17th April 2008, 12:58 PM   #108
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Thank you for the Radio 4 link, Dragon. Here’s another synopsis of the Ernst/Peters segment for the benefit of drive-by readers:

David Peters:
Quote:
"The guide is helpful for the kinds of people who generally use alternative medicine…yes, the evidence is thin on ground…it says what people use the different therapies for…it’s not saying they’re effective…it shows people how to find decent practitioners….it helps people to know where to start with therapies like acupuncture and homeopathy…it tries to map the territory…it’s not intended to be an evidence-based guide…it tries to hold peoples’ hands and take them through this difficult area….."

The presenter then puts it to Professor Ernst that the central point is that the guide is still going to be useful to many people.

Prof. Ernst asserts that it’s the opposite of useful and that it’s like a telephone book that refers you to another telephone book to find the evidence. He also says that it is not true that the guide never was intended to contain any evidence as the draft had contained evidence and the actual contract – which he saw - said it was a guide to contain evidence. His final comments were “It’s alright to come into the studio and tell nice stories but it would be much better if they were actually correct”.

BTW, here’s the actual letter from Edzard Ernst and Simon Singh that was sent to The Times:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle3760311.ece

And there’s also this piece by Simon Singh which was published in the New Statesman today:
http://www.newstatesman.com/200804170029

The comments section has been quite lively in the New Statesman piece ever since a certain Dr Kaplan made an appearance:
http://drkaplanarticles.blogspot.com...d-healing.html
http://www.drkaplan.co.uk/

Last edited by Blue Wode; 17th April 2008 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 13th September 2008, 05:05 AM   #109
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Edzard Ernst and Simon Singh in a letter to the Times on 16th April 2008:
Quote:
we strongly advise that the Prince of Wales and the Foundation for Integrated Health withdraw the publications Complementary Health Care: A Guide for Patients and the Smallwood report. They both contain numerous misleading and inaccurate claims concerning the supposed benefits of alternative medicine. The nation cannot be served by promoting ineffective and sometimes dangerous alternative treatments.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle3760311.ece

They’re gone!

This was the original URL for Complementary Health Care: A Guide for Patients:
http://www.fih.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/7...orpatients.pdf

And if you search the site for the Smallwood Report it returns nil results, and it’s also no longer available at the FreshMinds site (it was the research agency involved in the report):
http://www.freshminds.co.uk/PDF/THE%20REPORT.pdf

Could the tide be starting to turn?
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Old 13th September 2008, 09:20 AM   #110
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Or has Google caved in to pressure from Traditional Chinese Browsers?
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Old 19th January 2010, 11:35 AM   #111
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Zombied for three reasons:

1. I felt like it
2. There was awesomeness in this thread
3. Because stupidity like that shown by Andrew Pierce should be remembered.

Because I think "Smallwood Report" deserves to become a standing expression for "Bespoke Idiot Report that wastes everyone's time and money"

And I know I'm not really British, and therefore not entitled to moan about the Royals, but I kind of see them as "my" royals too so I will anyway. (Feel free to moan about the Swedish royals, they aren't as comical, but no less pathetic)
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Old 3rd March 2010, 08:49 AM   #112
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A postscript to this thread concerning an article in today's Times:

Royal row 'threatens alternative medicine research'
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7047382.ece

Quote:
One of the world’s leading centres for alternative medicine research is facing closure for lack of money after a row with a senior aide to the Prince of Wales.

The influential unit at the University of Exeter headed by Edzard Ernst, Britain’s first Professor of Complementary Medicine, will shut next spring unless a new financial backer can be found, The Times has learnt.

Professor Ernst, whose work has been critical of the claims made for some alternative remedies such as homeopathy, blamed its uncertain future on a lack of support from his university since he clashed publicly with Prince Charles’s office five years ago.

In 2005, The Times disclosed that the scientist had attacked the Smallwood report advocating complementary medicine, commissioned by the Prince, as “outrageous and deeply flawed”. This prompted a formal complaint from Sir Michael Peat, the Prince’s private secretary, who accused Professor Ernst of discussing a document he had been shown in confidence.

-snip-

A spokeswoman for Clarence House said that Sir Michael had complained about Professor Ernst in his capacity as chairman of the Prince’s Foundation for Integrated Health, and not at the Prince’s behest. “The Prince of Wales had no knowledge that a letter was being sent to the University of Exeter by Sir Michael Peat ... ”
[My bold]

Interesting comments from Les Rose below the article:
Quote:
My understanding is that the letter from Sir Michael Peat was on the Prince's stationery, not that of the Foundation. Is Sir Michael using the Prince's imprint without telling him?

And from Edzard Ernst too (on the other page):
Quote:
The notion that Sir Michael wrote the complaint as Chair of the Foundation puzzles me for 2 reasons. Firstly the Smallwood report was not an activity of the Foundation but entirely separate. Secondly, the complaint was written not on the Foundation's letterhead but on that of Clarence House.

So, Clarence House claims the Prince of Wales had "no knowledge" about the letter, yet Sir Michael Peat sent it on the Prince's Clarence House stationery in his capacity as chairman of the Prince’s Foundation for Integrated Health.

Porkie pies anyone?
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Old 3rd March 2010, 09:08 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Blue Wode View Post
Porkie pies anyone?
Not just any pork pies. Duchy Original Royal Organic Pork Pies.
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Old 3rd March 2010, 09:26 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by zeno2712 View Post
Not just any pork pies. Duchy Original Royal Organic Pork Pies.

It would be nice if these turned out to be as expensive for Clarence House as the rest of their products are for us.
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Old 3rd March 2010, 03:22 PM   #115
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Support for Edzard Ernst in the Guardian:

We need this voice to fight quackery - Professor Edzard Ernst, the UK's only professor of complementary medicine, is in danger of losing his job
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandsty...ntary-medicine

Quote:
An unusually outspoken scientist, he [Ernst] has never made a secret of his issues with Prince Charles's Foundation for Integrated Health, which last week he labelled a "lobby group for unproven treatments". He believes he has become "persona non grata" with Exeter since Sir Michael Peat, the Prince's private secretary, wrote to complain that he had publicly criticised a report he had been shown in confidence. The university cleared him, but Ernst suspects they would still like to see him go.
What can we do?
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Old 4th March 2010, 02:39 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Blue Wode View Post
What can we do?
Is the problem literally that nobody wants to fund the department, or is pressure being brought elsewhere on the University to shut it down? If it's the former then it should be possible to find a new backer. If the latter, it might be more difficult to resolve.
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Old 4th March 2010, 02:40 AM   #117
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Purveyors of SCAM make millions out of their quack remedies. I propose a small percentage of those profits should be taken from them and used to fund Ernst's research. If they're not prepared to test them themselves they should be forced to pay for someone else to do so.
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Old 4th March 2010, 03:31 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Purveyors of SCAM make millions out of their quack remedies. I propose a small percentage of those profits should be taken from them and used to fund Ernst's research. If they're not prepared to test them themselves they should be forced to pay for someone else to do so.
Does Ernst do much testing? I thought most of the work his department does was reviewing the existing evidence for CAM.
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Old 4th March 2010, 03:40 AM   #119
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From the linked article:

Quote:
He is the only professor of complementary medicine in the UK and his unit not only carries out studies, but assesses those done by other researchers.
The testing of conventional medicines is largely funded by the companies who sell and profit from them. I have never understood why the same is not true for SCAM products. I understand why they don't want to fund the testing - they know perfectly well that it would mostly show that their products are useless - but I don't understand why they aren't forced to do so under the Trade Descriptions Act.
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Old 4th March 2010, 03:58 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
From the linked article:
Ok. I was under the impression high quality medical research cost a considerable amount of money to perform. I did not think Ernst's department would have been funded sufficiently well to conduct it.

Quote:
The testing of conventional medicines is largely funded by the companies who sell and profit from them. I have never understood why the same is not true for SCAM products. I understand why they don't want to fund the testing - they know perfectly well that it would mostly show that their products are useless - but I don't understand why they aren't forced to do so under the Trade Descriptions Act.
I completely agree.
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