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Tags coincidences , twins

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Old 3rd October 2005, 05:30 PM   #1
Socratease
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Twins and Coincidences

Is anybody aware of any investigations into the so-called amazing coincidences of twins reared apart? I'm mainly referring to shared experiences that don't seem dependent on genetic predispositions, such as marrying spouses with identical names, or having children with identical names, etc. (The Springer/Lewis case might be a decent example.)

Has there been some research to determine whether all these details are documented or are simply anecdotal?

If looked at from the view of probabilities, are there any that hold up as genuine "amazing coincidences"?
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Old 3rd October 2005, 05:35 PM   #2
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Quote:
such as marrying spouses with identical names, or having children with identical names
I'm not so sure this wouldn't be genetic predisposition. If not, they're just what you said. Coincidence.
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Old 3rd October 2005, 05:35 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Socratease View Post
Is anybody aware of any investigations into the so-called amazing coincidences of twins reared apart? I'm mainly referring to shared experiences that don't seem dependent on genetic predispositions, such as marrying spouses with identical names, or having children with identical names, etc. (The Springer/Lewis case might be a decent example.)

Has there been some research to determine whether all these details are documented or are simply anecdotal?

If looked at from the view of probabilities, are there any that hold up as genuine "amazing coincidences"?
I've been curious about that, myself. My hypothesis is confirmation bias.
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Old 3rd October 2005, 05:51 PM   #4
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In psychology, (non-separated) twin studies are often used to discover indications of a genetic element to behaviour (particularly comparing monozygotic and dizygotic twins), and adoption studies are another method. Separated twin studies are extremely few and far between (notwithstanding the famous fraud case), but are often considered a better version of both.

But they're not. Twins share a lot of things other than biological parents. Appearance is one big thing (and, thereby, to an extent the reaction of others); the period in the womb is another, rather formative time (e.g., experiencing contact with the same teratogens, similar nutrition, etc.), and various other factors.

So in terms of general psychological measures - say, self-esteem, attributional style, all of those things they try to figure out the nature/nurture elements of, there are lots of factors other than genetics to take into account.

In terms of more specific things - well, I'm with BronzeDog, confirmation bias is the best explanation in the absence of well-controlled studies (which, so far as I am aware, are indeed absent, though I'd be interested to know of any that have been done). I've met people, many of whom have become, for obvious reasons, good friends, who seem almost eerily similar to myself, and who are not at all related to me. I'm sure if they did turn out to be related to me, any similarity would be attributed to a genetic factor. But they're not.
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Old 3rd October 2005, 05:57 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by BronzeDog View Post
I've been curious about that, myself. My hypothesis is confirmation bias.
I agree. I have had students pair off randomly and count the number of similarities they find with their random partner; looking at some lists, you'd swear they were separated at birth...according to the stereotype, anyway.

On the other hand, to be fair, you might want to see "Emergenesis : Genetic Traits That May Not Run in Families. American Psychologist, Vol. 47(12), December 1992. pp. 1565-1577."
Quote:
abstract:
Traits that are influenced by a configuration—rather than by a simple sum—of polymorphic genes may not be seen to be genetic unless one studies monozygotic twins (who share all their genes and thus all gene configurations) because such “emergenic” traits will tend not to run in families. Personal idiosyncrasies that have been found to be surprisingly concordant among MZ twins separated in infancy and reared apart may be emergenic traits. More speculatively, important human traits like leadership, genius in its many manifestations, being an effective therapist or parent, as well as certain psychopathological syndromes may also be emergenic. These ideas reemphasize the importance of the role played in human affairs by genetic variation.
Quote:
In the Minnesota Study of Twins Reared Apart (Bouchard, Lykken, McGue, Segal, & Tellegen, 1990; Lykken, Bouchard, McGue, & Tellegen, 1992b), we too have been struck by the similarities in personal style within many of the MZA pairs whom we have studied over the past 12 years. While videotaping an interview with one twin, we discovered that he was an accomplished raconteur with a fund of amusing anecdotes, so, while interviewing the co-twin, we asked him if he knew any funny stories. “Why, sure,” he said, leaning back with a practiced air, “I'll tell you a story” and proceeded to demonstrate his concordance. A pair of British MZAs, who had met for the first time as adults just a month previously, both firmly refused in their separate interviews to express opinions on controversial topics; since long before they discovered each other's existence, each had resolutely avoided controversy. Another pair were both habitual gigglers, although each had been raised by adoptive parents whom they described as undemonstrative and dour, and neither had known anyone who laughed as freely as she did until finally she met her twin. Both members of another pair independently reported that they refrained from voting in political elections on the principle that they did not feel themselves well enough informed to make wise choices. A pair of male MZAs, at their first adult reunion, discovered that they both used Vademecum toothpaste, Canoe shaving lotion, Vitalis hair tonic, and Lucky Strike cigarettes. After that meeting, they exchanged birthday presents that crossed in the mail and proved to be identical choices, made independently in separate cities.

There were two “dog people” among the MZA individuals; one showed her dogs, and the other taught obedience classes—they were an MZA pair. Only two of the more than 200 individual twins reared apart were afraid to enter the acoustically shielded chamber used in our psychophysiology laboratory, but both separately agreed to continue if the door was wired open—they were a pair of MZA twins. When at the beach, both women had always insisted on entering the water backwards and then only up to their knees; they were thus concordant, not only in their phobic tendencies but also in the specific manifestations of that timidity. There were two gunsmith hobbyists among the group of twins; two women who habitually wore seven rings; two men who offered a (correct) diagnosis of a faulty wheel bearing on Bouchard's car; two who obsessively counted things; two who had been married five times; two captains of volunteer fire departments; two fashion designers; two who left little love notes around the house for their wives, … in each case, an MZA pair.
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The educational pastime known as poker provides a useful analogy that may help clarify the idea of emergenesis. At conception, each of us received a very large number of “cards” containing a very large number of potential “hands,” probably more than one could hope to play out in the course of the typical life. In one form of poker, each player is dealt seven cards and then must select three to be passed to his or her neighbor on the right. This game is interesting for configural reasons; the cards you receive from the person on your left were of little value in the context of his or her other cards, but they just might be exactly what you need to create a winning hand.

At conception, each of us received an approximately random half of the cards dealt out originally to each of our parents. Your tall mother held four queens, and she passed three of them along to you. Combining them (additively) with a queen from the paternal line, you can stand as tall as Mom. Your handsome father held a royal flush in hearts. Your half of his cards included the king, queen, and jack of hearts, but your mirror tells you that a three-card approximation of a royal flush looks merely “interesting,” not handsome. The exciting thing about emergenesis is that you might receive the 10 and king of spades from Dad, and the jack, queen, and ace of spades from Mom, cards that had never counted for much in either family tree but whose combination in you might produce a Ramanujan, a new Olympic record—or a True Crime miniseries for television.
The authors admit that their idea is speculative. It is. But it is cool.
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Old 3rd October 2005, 06:58 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Babe from Missouri View Post
I'm not so sure this wouldn't be genetic predisposition. If not, they're just what you said. Coincidence.
Can genetics really determine something so specific as name-choice? The Springer/Lewis twins both named a childhood dog "Toy", and named their first-born son James Alan. This is a matter of personal choice, but they also both married a Linda, divorced her then married a Betty. Rules of personal attraction aside, it doesn't seem that genetics in one partner could actually determine the name choice of a spouse.

The coincidences do seem to pile up around identical twins. I guess the only way of testing this is to try and determine whether the same kinds of "coincidences" occur to non-twins.
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Old 3rd October 2005, 09:39 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Socratease View Post
Can genetics really determine something so specific as name-choice? The Springer/Lewis twins both named a childhood dog "Toy", and named their first-born son James Alan. This is a matter of personal choice, but they also both married a Linda, divorced her then married a Betty. Rules of personal attraction aside, it doesn't seem that genetics in one partner could actually determine the name choice of a spouse.
I dunno. Names can be sexy, regal, boring, etc. One name can be a put-off to some, and an attractor for others. That's at least partially innate. That's not to say that this case isn't pure cowincidence.
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Old 4th October 2005, 03:41 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Babe from Missouri View Post
I dunno. Names can be sexy, regal, boring, etc. One name can be a put-off to some, and an attractor for others. That's at least partially innate. That's not to say that this case isn't pure cowincidence.
What makes you assert that that's partially innate? I'd be quite surprised if it was.

As you say, cherry-picking the best of cases to illustrate a chosen point may well be coincidence; and as we know from anecdotal tales of psi, often the real story behind it is very different to that reported.

And, to elaborate on what I said earlier, I had a childhood friend I met at about the age of 10 - our mothers were both called Jenny, our dogs both called Bonnie, we lived in the same street, we both also owned a cat; another friend I met a few years later had fewer concrete coincidences, but shared many peculiar but strong interests with me (archery, criminal profiling [pre-Cracker/Silence of the Lambs, etc.], VW Beetles, to name but a few). Not collossal coincidences in either case, but enough to feel significant, and with no close familial connection (that we know of) at all.

As Mercutio observed with his students, if we dig around with anyone at all, we'll find some remarkable coincidences; if we then report only the best coincidences in only the best cases, we'll have some startling, but very misleading, data.
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Old 4th October 2005, 07:46 AM   #9
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As for picking spouses with similar names, you have to remember that names come and go in fashion. Certain names will prove very popular for a year or three - just think of how many of your acquaintances of the same general age have similar first names.
With regards to the Lewis/Springer case, you'll probably find that there's a preponderance of "Linda" and "Betty" amongst women of that age, and in that social class.
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Old 4th October 2005, 08:53 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Babe from Missouri View Post
I dunno. Names can be sexy, regal, boring, etc. One name can be a put-off to some, and an attractor for others. That's at least partially innate. That's not to say that this case isn't pure cowincidence.
I believe there are also documented effects of names on personalities. Basically, names carry a certain amount of social baggage. As a perhaps over the top example, how do you expect someone named 'Bubba' to behave? If enough people treat four-year-old Bubba as being a dumb redneck, that can substantially reduce his incentive to do well in school.
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Old 4th October 2005, 12:03 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Socratease View Post
Can genetics really determine something so specific as name-choice? The Springer/Lewis twins both named a childhood dog "Toy", and named their first-born son James Alan. This is a matter of personal choice, but they also both married a Linda, divorced her then married a Betty. Rules of personal attraction aside, it doesn't seem that genetics in one partner could actually determine the name choice of a spouse.

The coincidences do seem to pile up around identical twins. I guess the only way of testing this is to try and determine whether the same kinds of "coincidences" occur to non-twins.
And also to assess the non-coincidences. Did they both chose the same wallpaper, the same motor car, the same brand of socks ?
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Old 4th October 2005, 02:48 PM   #12
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Maternal mammals affect their children through out pregnancy...Moving around and eating a lot of weird food. This causes Kinesis and( I understand the babies chemistry or DNA ask for certain acids and proteins) Slight chemical imbalances.

Siblings have almsot indentical chemistry...it's their reactions and growth that cause entropy with in their telepathic bond. Twins go through the same process of womb life, with a bound between sacs and a natural pull between one another...They express them selves through verbal means...were as insects are almost indentical down to the last protien...in which they are born with this natural bound, and they do have a chemical alphabet in which the express, through bond...this is why telepathy between the modern american white seems so pseduscienetific...because it is such a natural thing for those who express themselves through these means...where as nowadays...thee american poeple,even under basic attraction, like to play genetic engineer and mix italins and germans and so forth...

Thee coincendce factor is usually a mere induction of the indetical entities data...which is a natural occurence...and a coincednce is almost like an accident, which are form of natural occurences...in which this bond, which DOES defy physics, can stretch or at least seem to be connected from miles apart...My grandfather had a twin brother...
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Old 4th October 2005, 03:36 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Socratease View Post
Can genetics really determine something so specific as name-choice? The Springer/Lewis twins both named a childhood dog "Toy", and named their first-born son James Alan. This is a matter of personal choice, but they also both married a Linda, divorced her then married a Betty. Rules of personal attraction aside, it doesn't seem that genetics in one partner could actually determine the name choice of a spouse.

The coincidences do seem to pile up around identical twins. I guess the only way of testing this is to try and determine whether the same kinds of "coincidences" occur to non-twins.
I bet they both liked chocolate, recess, going to the zoo, and chrsitmas as kids too!

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Old 4th October 2005, 03:41 PM   #14
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With Socra's info about thee subjects...Do neuron gentically contain data? As in their constrcution during birth, could the mothers dreams about the babies lifes be affecting their lifes...or is what I think true...no matter the distance, they will make the same choice...But I also think everyoe is conected, which we all are by electricty...
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Old 4th October 2005, 03:58 PM   #15
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Quote:
this is why telepathy between the modern american white seems so pseduscienetific
[/QUOTE

And what is it? Scientific?

Quote:
With Socra's info about thee subjects...Do neuron gentically contain data? As in their constrcution during birth, could the mothers dreams about the babies lifes be affecting their lifes...or is what I think true...no matter the distance, they will make the same choice...But I also think everyoe is conected, which we all are by electricty...
Dreams affecting babies? Like sleeping dreams or "I hope he one day will rule the world" kind of dream?

Quote:
But I also think everyoe is conected, which we all are by electricty...
Where did you get that idea from?
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Old 4th October 2005, 04:06 PM   #16
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I sense humor in your last reply...


but...Does basal metabolism keep electrical pulse intact? can any kind of neornal action from the baby trigger a pulse from the mothers brain? Can her mere thoughts affect the babies life or even cognitive abilty?
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Old 4th October 2005, 04:19 PM   #17
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I am missing some answers...

If she dreams of carrots the baby will have red hair...

Do you think that babies can "see" the mothers dreams?
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Old 4th October 2005, 04:29 PM   #18
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hahahaha

maybe man...Im saying, does at one poitn in time during preganacy, a nueronal pulse make it's way into the umbilical cord and processed as a thought, in which one day will be discovered or maybe even her vocal expression could be saved as data and be apart of the babies thoughts forever, apart of thee unconscious mind that might never be exposed, but affects your thoughts, as if her expression was the babies temperments...

Could occupital data be configurated though umbilical cord into the babies ocipital area?

Do you understand anything about telepathy?
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Old 4th October 2005, 04:39 PM   #19
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"Could occupital data be configurated though umbilical cord into the babies ocipital area?"

Prove it and you will win the Nobel prize.

Do I understand anything about telepathy?

Is there anything to understand about it? More than it can't be done...

Or maybe you can send me a secret word to me! I am waiting...
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Old 4th October 2005, 04:45 PM   #20
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hahaha

Put your head down and laugh...

as I did...Learn your mind/body and enviorment...then tell me if you still think telepathy is non-exsistent...


blah
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Old 4th October 2005, 04:45 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by The elementalist View Post
hahahaha

maybe man...Im saying, does at one poitn in time during preganacy, a nueronal pulse make it's way into the umbilical cord and processed as a thought, in which one day will be discovered or maybe even her vocal expression could be saved as data and be apart of the babies thoughts forever, apart of thee unconscious mind that might never be exposed, but affects your thoughts, as if her expression was the babies temperments...
Ummm... no. Unless you have evidence to the contrary?
Quote:
Could occupital data be configurated though umbilical cord into the babies ocipital area?
Ummm... no. Unless you have evidence to the contrary?
Quote:
Do you understand anything about telepathy?
No, please explain.
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Old 4th October 2005, 04:47 PM   #22
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how about...ummmmm YES!!!!

now you are more confident in figuring it out...or are you backwards in this sense, as if basic science has been embedded in your mind...

Humans are capabale of so much more than thee aveage person thinks...
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Old 4th October 2005, 04:53 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by The elementalist View Post
hahaha

Put your head down and laugh...

as I did...Learn your mind/body and enviorment...then tell me if you still think telepathy is non-exsistent...


blah
Put my head down and laugh? I hope that is a silly english expression. Cause I don't know what good that would do me.

Yes I still think it is non-existent.

So send me a word already!
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Old 4th October 2005, 04:56 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by The elementalist View Post
how about...ummmmm YES!!!!

now you are more confident in figuring it out...or are you backwards in this sense, as if basic science has been embedded in your mind...

Humans are capabale of so much more than thee aveage person thinks...
Yes, I'm afraid basic science has been embedded in my mind. Please remove it by explaining why I'm wrong, instead of asserting these odd things.
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Old 4th October 2005, 04:57 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by case sensitive View Post
Put my head down and laugh? I hope that is a silly english expression.
Nope, it makes as much sense to me as it does you, CS
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Old 4th October 2005, 04:58 PM   #26
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[quote=

Humans are capabale of so much more than thee aveage person thinks...[/QUOTE]

That's true. But we can only do it if we can prove we can do it. Saying we can do it without being able to prove it makes us trolls on the internet.
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Old 4th October 2005, 05:18 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by The elementalist View Post
..Could occupital data be configurated though umbilical cord into the babies ocipital area?
Do you understand anything about telepathy?
There is no such word as "occupital", the "occiptal "lobe of the brain is primarily dedicated to visual proccessing and there are no afferent neurons connecting the umbilical cord to that area of the brain. Unless you are wired differently than other terrestrial mammals.
As to "telepathy". Yes. I understand that is a scientifiction concept that has not been proven to exist.
Unlike the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
RAmen.
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Old 4th October 2005, 05:24 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Jeff Corey View Post
Unless you are wired differently than other terrestrial mammals.
I suspect indeed he may be.
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Old 4th October 2005, 05:39 PM   #29
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Is it occipital or occiptal?
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Old 4th October 2005, 05:41 PM   #30
The elementalist
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Originally Posted by Jeff Corey View Post
There is no such word as "occupital", the "occiptal "lobe of the brain is primarily dedicated to visual proccessing and there are no afferent neurons connecting the umbilical cord to that area of the brain. Unless you are wired differently than other terrestrial mammals.
As to "telepathy". Yes. I understand that is a scientifiction concept that has not been proven to exist.
Unlike the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
RAmen.

Yes I meant occiptal, I know my atonmoty...I will actually go look up how the umbilical cord is connected...The somatics are the part of the brain dealing with internal organs...how hard would it be to pass a data along with thee regulation signals...and what about my other thougth that recived no attention?

For the spaghetti flying monster...

Uhhh

yeah
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Old 4th October 2005, 05:48 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by The elementalist View Post
Yes I meant occiptal, I know my atonmoty...I will actually go look up how the umbilical cord is connected...The somatics are the part of the brain dealing with internal organs...how hard would it be to pass a data along with thee regulation signals...
Right, so you've got your idea about something you think could happen. What makes you think it does happen?
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and what about my other thougth that recived no attention?
Would you repeat it?
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Old 4th October 2005, 05:56 PM   #32
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Vocal expression...the baby hearing it...simple enough?

I never I kept my context out of question...Also because it is common sense to think that one electrical pulse can go through many wires into another recptor in which it is intended for...
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Old 4th October 2005, 05:56 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by The elementalist View Post
Yes I meant occiptal, I know my atonmoty
Atonmoty... Are you drunk or worse?

Now are you going to prove that telepathy exist or are you going to behave like everyone else with silly beliefs? Yes you can find them in all kinds of threads around here.

Please tell us why you know telepathy works. Have you done a real test?
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Old 4th October 2005, 06:02 PM   #34
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If I had an MRI machine...or spect machine, I would prove it...I thought to much about it...I AM AN ELECTRICALLY CHARGED PERSON...MY GRANDFATHER COULD HARDLY WEAR A WATCH W/O IT GOING FAYWIRE....

I watch people do thee exact same scenarios some else did five minutes ago, and I see and feel it happen...I think, is this persons logic cacaulating thee other persons behavior and somehow introducing it to his behavior, is he saving his signal to activate indentity in "ways people act" or how I act? Or could it possibly be, because of what I have been capable of for awhile...electrical minipulation...Thee abilty to make the eyes push out electrically instead of induct...carrying data...

I am very stumped about how I can do alot of things I can do...I know my psycology and science...

I type fast and peck...I make mistakes...
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Old 4th October 2005, 06:04 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by The elementalist View Post
Vocal expression...the baby hearing it...simple enough?
What, you're saying the baby can hear things in the womb? If the foetus is sufficiently developed (7 weeks+), it can probably hear some muffled sounds outside the womb. I fear this isn't what you mean, though.
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I never I kept my context out of question...Also because it is common sense to think that one electrical pulse can go through many wires into another recptor in which it is intended for...
As you might note from case sensitive's post, the question is not can this happen, but does this happen. If you assert that this does happen, you must have reasons to think that. What are they?

Footnote: the nervous system is not simply an interconnected mesh of electrical wiring as you seem to think.
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Old 4th October 2005, 06:08 PM   #36
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the fact that vocals come from the stomach and it would send a viberation through the body doesn't seem to be a little more intense of a signal...

Yeah , I understand how the nerous system works...The brain is all linked to the brain stem as well as the spine...What do you think synusthesia is...the new SciAM did a lot of resarch on this...I have this problem...

Oh..sorry, Im starting to let confusion get to me...yes...
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Old 4th October 2005, 06:10 PM   #37
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With other words: NO you have not done a test but you believe you have powers unknown to science. And nothing is going to change your mind about these powers. Have you met Achau Nguyen?
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Old 4th October 2005, 06:13 PM   #38
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noooo...I bielive that it could be proven with the proper machinary...and no...regardless of how much logic is behind a person thoughts...I will never forgot all the awesome things that have happen to me..
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Old 4th October 2005, 06:39 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by The elementalist View Post
noooo...I bielive that it could be proven with the proper machinary...and no...regardless of how much logic is behind a person thoughts...I will never forgot all the awesome things that have happen to me..
Hmmm. Well, if you're interested as to whether we agree your claims could be proven with the proper machinery, do tell us precisely what your claims are, or what the "awesome things" that have happened to you are, and how you intend to prove them using machinery.

If not, there's not really a lot that can be said.

Unless you apply for the JREF prize.
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Old 4th October 2005, 08:14 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by case sensitive View Post
Is it occipital or occiptal?
I was keeping an "i" out for you.
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