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Old 22nd June 2003, 09:20 PM   #1
Checkmite
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Pyramids - Egypt/Yucatan Connection?

Introduction by moderator Luke T.: Link to original topic:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ad.php?t=21966






The ancient Egyptians and the Mayans both built pyramids - including some impressively large ones. Could the Mayans have been inspired by the Egyptian pyramids? Could there be a common cultural link between the two - a source independent of either, yet inspiring to both?

The short answer is no. The long and more detailed answer follows.

First of al, in case anyone wants to contest the Egyptians' claim to being the original pyramid builders, or that the Great Pyramid itself was built by them, let's take a look at how pyramids in Egypt evolved.

Thus, we begin in Egypt, around the year 2600 BCE. It's only the 3rd Dynasty; united Upper and Lower Egypt is still a fresh concept. Up until this point, Egyptians had been burying their noble dead in mastabas - low brick monuments which distinguished the upper class from the common class - who were buried under piles of rocks. After a few kings had passed on and been laid to rest in their mastabas - well, there were a number of mastabas about. Kings started having bigger and bigger mastabas built for them, so that people who walked by would be able to tell the difference between this king and his weaker predecessors. However, one day a king named Djoser had a rather inspired plan - one that was sure to make people remember his name for years. Something huge, and tall. He set his architects to work, and they drafted a plan for the first step pyramid - essentially a series of progressively smaller mastabas built on top of each other. The result was - for its time - magnificent.



Of course, it wasn't really a pyramid - but it was the beginning of a beautiful friendship between Egyptian kings and big stone pointy things. After Djoser's first step pyramid, several others were built by him and a couple of kings afterwards. Djoser had started a trend!

Flash forward about 90 years. It's now the 4th Dynasty, and a king named Sneferu - probably seeing the fame that the step pyramid builders earned themselves - embarked on something grander. Instead of a rough mastaba, he wanted a smooth, even, and sharply-pointed monument. He also wanted it to be much bigger than anything that had ever been built before. So he sent his planners and laborers feverishly to work. The result was the Pyramid of Meidum, the first true pyramid:



Wait a second, you say...that doesn't look any kind of pyramid at all, much less a true pyramid!

Well, it used to look like a pyramid. Or at least it was about to look like a true pyramid - but something terrible happened. Due to a serious design flaw, the Meidum pyramid collapsed during the final stages of, or soon after, construction. The sides of the pyramid literally slid off, leaving only the zuggerat-shaped stone core we see today. The huge piles of debris seen surrounding the core are the pulverized remains of the pyramid.

But Sneferu was a persistent old chap, and, having corrected his architects, commissioned a second pyramid. This one was built without any serious design flaws...okay, maybe a couple. Halfway up the pyramid, the architects realized that this pyramid would be too steep, too expensive, and take too long to build. So, they abruptly changed the slope of the pyramid, making it more gradual. The stress was still too great, so the engineers designed interior spaces with corbelled ceilings, to help relieve pressure:



Of course, at the top (and several other places in the pyramid), there was still more pressure than the engineers were comfortable with; however, by this time they were tired of expending so much effort correcting their mistakes, that they just braced some spots in the interior with cedar beams:



Yes, boys and girls - that cedar timber in the above photo is original - direct to you from 2570 (or so) BCE.

The result was worth the trouble, however. The Bent Pyramid of Sneferu:


Bent Pyramid. Height: 105m. Base: 188.6m Slope: 54º, 42º

Sneferu had yet one more pyramid built before he finally gave up the ghost - the Red Pyramid. It was the first complete true pyramid, with corbelled ceilings and the design flaws from the previous pyramid corrected. The Red Pyramid seems a bit flatter than most Egyptian pyramids, because it has a shallower angle - the slope used on the top half of the Bent Pyramid was used for the entirety of the Red Pyramid.

After good old Sneferu died, the king Khufu took the reigns. Khufu literally outdid himself with the biggest "I'll show you!" project of them all - the Great Pyramid.

Some people don't think Khufu built the Great Pyramid. Many people still believe the only thing which attaches Khufu's name to the Great Pyramid is quarrymen's graffiti up high in the King's Chamber. Actually, this isn't true. A nearby "mastaba village" dated to the 4th Dynasty contained many remains and inscriptions, complete with mentions of King Khufu, and titles like "Director of the King's Project", "Overseer of the Side of the Pyramid", and similar titles. A huge work camp near the site of the Giza monuments also dates to the 4th Dynasty and shows evidence of over 50 years of occupation - for good reason; Khafre and Menkaure had their pyramids built right next to Khufu's, in succession. Khafre's and Menkaure's names are all over their pyramids, so it's obvious who built them. Now, Khufu predated Khafre and Menkaure, and heiroglyphic evidence indicates that he commissioned a huge pyramid project. The only pyramid on site that predates Khafre's and Menkaure's pyramids is the Great Pyramid. 2 + 2 = 4, and all that. Plus, the interior of the Great Pyramid features galleries, portcullises, and corbelled ceilings - all methods and features developed - through much trial and error, I hasten to add - by Sneferu's architects. So why wasn't Khufu's body found within his pyramid? Who knows - it could've been stolen, or perhaps he died before the pyramid was completely complete. The latter theory would explain why there's a distinct lack of inscriptions on the walls inside the burial chambers...


Great Pyramid of Khufu. Height: 146.6m. Base: 230.37m. Slope: 51º

Khafre's pyramid was built on higher ground to make it look taller than Khufu's. It's actually a little shorter. The pyramid also features no corbelled ceilings, because it has only one hall and chamber - at ground level. The rest of the pyramid appears solid. Khafre's pyramid (foreground), interestingly, still has some of its original limestone casing at the top:


Great Pyramid of Khafre. Height: 136.4m. Base: 215.25m. Slope: 53°

And of course, next comes Menkuare's pyramid, only about 1/4 the size of the others:


Pyramid of Menkuare. Height: 62m. Base: 105m. Slope: 51º[/b].

You've been able to see how the Egyptians developed their pyramids, and what they were used for - elaborate tombs. You've seen how they grew from extravagant piles of rock to smooth and precisely-shaped wonders, and you've seen the trial and error their designers went through to reach the pinnacle - the Great Pyramid of Khufu.

With Giza, our trip to ancient Egypt ends. Next, off to Mexico - to compare Egyptian and Mayan pyramids.

Unfortunately, our knowledge about the Maya is limited - and the sort of specifics we have about how particular pyramids were built in Egypt simply doesn't exist for Mayan structures. However, we do know a few things. For example, we know that Mayans never built true pyramids. All their pyramids were of the step variety, and almost exclusively were used as temples for the living, rather than tombs for the dead - the sole exception being the tomb of king Pacal, who was buried beneath the Temple of the Inscriptions at Palenque.

"Temples for the Living" is perhaps a bit of a misnomer, as services at the top of the temples often culminated in rather gruesome and abrupt sacrifices of human victims to please the gods. Mayan temples started out as simple low raised platforms, becoming taller and taller, with varying slopes and bases and heights - in fact, there seems to be no set "paradigm" for Maya pyramids, with the exception that they all had flat tops where the temples were, and of course they all had stairs.

The grand-daddy of Mayan pyramidity is the Temple of the Sun, located at Teotihuacan, where Mexico City now stands.

Pyramid of the Sun. Height: 65m. Base: 228m x 216m. Slope: Unavailable

The Temple of the Sun is huge - it's the 3rd largest pyramid in the world. However, it is most unlikely that the Great Pyramid of Khufu and the Pyramid of the Sun were inspired by the same source. Their bases are similar, to be sure - however, the building method is different, the materials used are different, the applications and reasons for building the pyramids are different, and they don't even look similar - in fact, the Temple of the Sun is less than half the height of Khufu's pyramid.

To summarize - the only true similarity between Egyptian and Maya pyramids is that they start out wide and end narrow. Photos, specifications, and purposes suggest no remote link between the two. Of course, if there's some linking evidence I haven't been made aware of...then by all means, I would be happy to examine it.
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Last edited by Darat; 7th December 2005 at 01:02 PM. Reason: Corrected link to original post
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Old 23rd June 2003, 12:40 AM   #2
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Cool.
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Old 23rd June 2003, 01:34 AM   #3
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That's an interesting summary. Not sure there's much room there for debate. Now explain how the designs on the Nazca plain were created without help from our alien overlords.
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Old 23rd June 2003, 03:58 AM   #4
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Originally posted by Russ
That's an interesting summary. Not sure there's much room there for debate. Now explain how the designs on the Nazca plain were created without help from our alien overlords.
*sigh*. No rest for the weary...

Maybe later.
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Old 23rd June 2003, 04:40 AM   #5
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Very good summary! You omitted a lot of Egyptian pyramids (for simplicity I'm sure) included several unfinished and a couple of more that have collapsed. All together, they have provided us with excellent insight into the cronology and development of Egyptian pyramid architecture.


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Old 23rd June 2003, 04:43 AM   #6
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Mmm, and after all, it is not so surprising that Mayan and Egyptian pyramids have a lot of features in common: Once you've decided to build a large stone monument that is supposed to stand forever, then without access to mortar and concrete, the pyramid shape is really the only feasible option.

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Old 23rd June 2003, 05:02 AM   #7
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.....waiting for frostbite to set in.
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Old 23rd June 2003, 05:43 AM   #8
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One small quibble: The Temple of the Sun is Aztec.

Palenque, Chichen Itza, Uxmal, etc are Mayan.

If Chiapas is ever safe again, I recommend a trip to Palenque. It's one of the most spectacular places on the planet.
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Old 23rd June 2003, 06:33 AM   #9
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A few things,

Evidence that there was at least SOME connection between the two cultures, besides their propensity for pyramids.

In mummies in Egypt, there has been numerous traces of Cocaine found, along with tobacco and Cacao (yes, chocolate) in the bindings and bandages. NONE of these are found in the old world, and at the time (we thought) were only found in the america's. How did it get there. I FIRMLY believe that the phoneceins (sp?) had far greater trade routes, and could/were trading with the New World at a time when most of science believes that Britain was as far as they got.

The Nazca lines. Forget aliens. I have read/seen evidence that the Nazca were using balloons (of the hot air variety, lol) to get them up high enough to see/sketch the shapes and drawings. I even watxhed them make one of said balloons on the History channal using only materials that they had (mostly a very strong, lightweight fabric they made) to do it, and they found it was entirely doable.

Back to the mesoamericans and the folks in Egypt. I think it is very likely thatthey had contact with each other at that time (and not via Atlantis or aliens, or whatnot). Their cultures just seem to have too many similarities.

hehe, cocaine mummy's! Middle Kingdom drug dealers. I love it!
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Old 23rd June 2003, 06:36 AM   #10
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Oh, also, I have been to Chichen Itza and Kohunlich. Both were GREAT visits if you like Mayan ruins. Kohunlichis much more undeveloped and remote, so if you like it 'natural' you'll like it there. If you like a soda machine, flush toilets and a taco stand nearby, go to Chichen,
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Old 23rd June 2003, 07:37 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Larspeart
The Nazca lines. Forget aliens. I have read/seen evidence that the Nazca were using balloons (of the hot air variety, lol) to get them up high enough to see/sketch the shapes and drawings. I even watxhed them make one of said balloons on the History channal using only materials that they had (mostly a very strong, lightweight fabric they made) to do it, and they found it was entirely doable.
Joe Nickell has demonstrated that they didn't need hot air balloons, but rather stakes and rope, both of which were available.
Check out his articles in Skeptical Inquirer. In one, he recreates a full sized Nasca figure without the use of a flying saucer, or an almost equally improbable hot air balloon.
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Old 23rd June 2003, 08:37 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kullervo
One small quibble: The Temple of the Sun is Aztec.

Palenque, Chichen Itza, Uxmal, etc are Mayan.

If Chiapas is ever safe again, I recommend a trip to Palenque. It's one of the most spectacular places on the planet.
Actually you're right - my mistake. The Temple is Aztec, possibly begun as a Toltec structure at first
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Old 23rd June 2003, 08:42 AM   #13
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Yeah cocaine in mummies ,yeah right. Care to cite that source, or were they smuggling?

My father a rather famous anthroplogist would like to be able to prove that the Asians and the mesoamericans had contact.

There isn't reallt that much similarites between egypt and maya, did the egytians ritualy torture the pharohs?
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Old 23rd June 2003, 08:56 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Corey

Joe Nickell has demonstrated that they didn't need hot air balloons, but rather stakes and rope, both of which were available.
Check out his articles in Skeptical Inquirer. In one, he recreates a full sized Nasca figure without the use of a flying saucer, or an almost equally improbable hot air balloon.

"Sirius 1 on final approach..."

Yes, most archaeologists are of the opinion that neither the alien nor hot air balloon theories are likely; rather, it was most likely done entirely on the ground. The figures are huge, to be sure, but not so huge that one would need a high vantage point to direct their contruction. As Mr. Corey mentions, stakes and rope arranged in a specific fashion would do the trick. The lines themselves were easy to fashion:



All the Nazca had to do was brush away all the dark rock and gravel along the line, exposing the light sand beneath. It should be obvious that any spaceship trying to land on or near such a figure would blast the lines into oblivion. Even landing a small plane on the lines would be disastrous, and several lines have already been severely damaged because tourists drove cars over them.
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Old 23rd June 2003, 10:29 AM   #16
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Dancing. . .

Torture them? Not sure on that, but they sure didn't like Nefertiti's corpse.

smashed in the side of her face/head, and tore out her chest cavity. I'd say that is a harsh treatment for a ruler/god.

Moderation Action by Luke T.: Edited out one sentence to maintain level of taste preferred for this sub-forum which did not affect context of post.
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Old 23rd June 2003, 10:45 AM   #17
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Nazca lines...

Regarding the purpose of the Nazca lines, I read somewhere that someone had the idea that they might be used as sort of prayer aides. The idea being you walk along the path of, say, the sacred monkey, and you pray. Does anyone else know anything about this? I can NOT for the life of me remember where I read it! Argh!
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Old 23rd June 2003, 10:47 AM   #18
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Sounds very Hindu. /shrug
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Old 23rd June 2003, 11:39 AM   #19
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Great summary. Thanks.

What do you say to the people who claim the Sphinx is older than is conventionally claimed? (Apart from the obvious. )

Is there any reason to think this might be true?
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Old 23rd June 2003, 12:04 PM   #20
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Joshua...

What's new about what you wrote? Good post, but it still doesn't prove or disprove anything. I'm still not convinced that there's no correlation.
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Old 23rd June 2003, 12:06 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by RichardR
Great summary. Thanks.

What do you say to the people who claim the Sphinx is older than is conventionally claimed? (Apart from the obvious. )

Is there any reason to think this might be true?
Water weathering and erosion patterns. The body is way more eroded than the face, even if the head was sticking out from the sands most of the time and was exposed to wind and occasional rain. One possibility is that the body is older than thought, and that someone carved his face on it.
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Old 23rd June 2003, 12:19 PM   #22
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I don't buy that. the fact is, the body was protected by stationary sand for the last 2-3,000 years, whereas the face was exposxed to the elements the entire time. That will make a HUGE difference in regards to erosion.
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Old 23rd June 2003, 12:33 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Frostbite
Joshua...

What's new about what you wrote? Good post, but it still doesn't prove or disprove anything. I'm still not convinced that there's no correlation.
Due to the factors I've presented, I'm not convinced that there is any correlation. Aside from the fact that the bases of the two pyramids in question are nearly the same size...what else is there?
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Old 23rd June 2003, 12:36 PM   #24
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The Sphinx's age is contested because some stones appear to have been exposed to a lot of water erosion. The arguments in this case are very in depth and technical, and not even one of my long-winded diatribes could cover them all. Instead, I refer you to a website which has a collection of various professional refutations of the water-erosion theory.

Ma'at's Sphinx
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Old 23rd June 2003, 12:51 PM   #25
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Originally posted by Larspeart
I don't buy that. the fact is, the body was protected by stationary sand for the last 2-3,000 years, whereas the face was exposxed to the elements the entire time. That will make a HUGE difference in regards to erosion.
No, it wasn't. The Sphinx has been covered and uncovered and recovered and reuncovered several times during its existence. The body is also very severely damaged, and has been the focus of several restoration efforts, beginning with King Thutmosis the Fourth in around 1400 BCE. The body is made of several different types of stone, gotten from several different places, applied during several different time periods. It's a big mess, and most proponents of either side of the debate tend to stay away from the body, referring instead to the stonework surrounding the Sphinx.
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Old 23rd June 2003, 01:00 PM   #26
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Not to mention that the Sphinx was probably submerged in water by cultists, which could explain the water weathering on the Sphinx's lower edges and the surrounding area.

(Don't worry, I'll bring my Mexico-Egypt correlation arguments later today, kinda busy at work at the moment)
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Old 23rd June 2003, 03:08 PM   #27
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The appearance of nicotine in Egyptian mummies is easily accounted for because of its presence in food items the Egyptians used, as well as tobacco-based insecticides many museums (from which the mummy samples were taken) during the 19th century. The presence of THC in Egyptian mummies isn't mysterious at all, because cannibis is indigenous to the region - the Egyptians used it to make rope, and it's also known that the burning of incense produces THC in small amounts which can add up when inhaled over time.

In fact, the only difficult-to-account-for finding is the presence of cocaine in the Egyptian mummies. However, it isn't suggestive of trans-atlantic travel; any plant of the genus Erythroxylum produces cocaine, and several of these plants are present in southern Africa and Asia, particularly India. Lapis Lazuli - a stone native to Afghanistan - has been found in some Egyptian tombs, indicating trade with those areas.

If we are to accept the existence of a trans-Atlantic trade route between the Egyptians and South America, we need better evidence than chemical residues which can be accounted for otherwise. It seems almost humorous that such a route could be established, but the only things the societies traded with each other were recreational drugs.
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Old 23rd June 2003, 03:57 PM   #28
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--So the smile we see in mummies is not rictus, but evedance that the Egyptians knew how to party!
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Old 23rd June 2003, 06:07 PM   #29
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--So the smile we see in mummies is not rictus, but evedance that the Egyptians knew how to party!
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Old 23rd June 2003, 06:29 PM   #30
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Joshua KorosiWhat are your opinions on Thor Hyadale(sp) theories linking the 2 cultures. He used reed boats to show at least in theory the Atlantic could be crossed and allowed the possibility of the idea of pyramid building to migrate.
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Old 23rd June 2003, 06:32 PM   #31
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Great Post Joshua.
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Old 23rd June 2003, 06:57 PM   #32
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Joshua KorosiWhat are your opinions on Thor Hyadale(sp) theories linking the 2 cultures. He used reed boats to show at least in theory the Atlantic could be crossed and allowed the possibility of the idea of pyramid building to migrate.
Thor actually had a couple of advantages here - for example, a support team always nearby, and general knowledge of which direction he needed to go and what lay ahead. But that doesn't matter and ultimately isn't the problem.

The problem, again, is simple lack of evidence. The pyramids in South America are so unlike the pyramids in Egypt, any connection between the two is going to be difficult to prove. No other cultural or physical artifact has been found which supports the link, which can't be more easily explained without a transatlantic voyage. It would've taken more than one single trip on a boat to transfer something like pyramid construction techniques (there would've been quite a language learning curve involved), and besides that, there's the time differences - the Egyptians stopped building pyramids by the end of the Old Kingdom (it's very likely by that by the Middle Kingdom, they may have completely forgotten how to build them, because they no longer cared). Whatever indigenous people lived in South America during the pyramid age of Egypt would've been extremely primitive. Why would it have taken 2,000 years for the South Americans to finally start building pyramids? If the primitive people simply waited until they were financially or technologically able to build pyramids, would the knowlege passed on over 2,000 years still be viable? Why wasn't anything else passed on from the Egyptian visitors? Why couldn't the South Americans have figured out such a simple, obvious, and practical structure as the pyramid for themselves?

In addition, the premise is shaky. The Egyptians were excellent river sailors. The Nile was predictable and easy to navigate. They simply did not like risking an ocean voyage - and if they did have to use the ocean, they hugged the shore. A trip past Libya (most of which they never explored), into and across the Atlantic just wouldn't make sense, with all this territory in between to expand into. And if the chances one ship would dare venture out on such a voyage are slim, the chances that among the crew would be one of the privileged few educated in the ways of pyramid construction is practically astronomical.
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Old 23rd June 2003, 09:57 PM   #33
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So where exactly do the Martians fit in?
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Old 23rd June 2003, 10:50 PM   #34
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Well, the pyramids on Mars are almost exactly the same of course.
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Old 23rd June 2003, 11:14 PM   #35
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Joshua Korosi Thanks for the reply, I’m not certain if Thor was ever convinced of a pyramid link or was just out to prove a point (it’s been a while since I read his books). I think he also tried to show reed boat building methods could also have been passed on.

But to counter both arguments, both cultures would find a similar solution to boat weaving and pyramid building as there must be a limited number ways either could be designed.

Still have to admire Thor’s reed boat crossings if just for the adventure.
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Old 24th June 2003, 04:12 AM   #36
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Originally posted by Larspeart




I'd say that is a harsh treatment for a ruler/god.
Well, you can go to Maya mythology page and read the section about Bloodletting & The Vision Quest to see what Mayan kings did to themselves. Warning: someone may find the description quite uncomfortable.
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Old 24th June 2003, 04:18 AM   #37
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So where exactly do the Martians fit in?
They don't!
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Old 24th June 2003, 10:44 AM   #38
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I was thinking more of a trans-pacific boatride.

I'll start by disproving that the Great Pyramid was built by Khufu. The only evidence pointing to that conclusion are 1) inscriptions up in the Construction Chamber and 2) a statuette of Khufu which was found in the temples surrounding the pyramids. Records indeed say that Khufu built mortuary temples and mastabas on the plateau, yet there is no mention of him actually built one of the seven wonders of the old world! I do not dismiss the possibility that such records could have been destroyed due to jaelousy or Khufu's cruel ways.

Concerning the Construction Chambers red ochre paint writings, there was a certain amount of secrecy during Vyse's excursions. Many men were fired from his team for knowing too much, the name Khufu is mis-spelled "Re-ufu", and I believe Vyse wrote these himself. All of the Construction Chamber's walls feature writings, except for the east wall, which was partly blown apart by Vyse with dynamite.

There is enough evidence however to believe that Khufu adopted the Great Pyramid as his own.

- Cement found between some of the Great Pyramid's blocks contained straw particles carbon-dated back to 3,100 BC, right around when Upper and Lower Egypt were unified under Narmer.

- Unlike Menkaure and Sneferu, Khufu and Chephren are never credited for building their pyramids. They are however credited for building mortuary temples.

- The Great Pyramid does not fit Egyptian dynastic history. The builders used revolutionary features (such as advanced portcullis systems, a "King's Chamber" surrounded by granite walls, an all-around over-engineered design, etc.) which were never found in later pyramid designs. In some cases, features were found to replicate those at Giza, but with a negligeable quality.

- The use of monoliths is contrary to practical uses, and is found exclusively at Giza. The weight of the blocks average at 2.5 tons, and the biggest blocks are made of granite and reach 80 tons. Other pyramids throughout the world use much smaller blocks and mud bricks.

- A pyramid design can be found on the Narmer palette. Some say it depicts a raft (?) but it appears clear to me that a rectangle (Upper and Lower Egypts united) containing a pyramid symbol in its upper part could mean the Giza plateau.


Anyway, here's an incomplete list of similarities between the Pyramid of the Sun at Teotihuacan and the Great Pyramid of Giza. I _will_ include evidence which is nothing more than speculation, for the sake of the argument.

- Both pyramids were places where "men became gods", which means they were both burial places or at least an instrumental part of a burial ceremony.

- Both pyramids have the same base measurements, which makes me believe that 230x230 meters somehow "means" something.

- A universal flood myth present in practically all of the old world's mythologies, which could link whatever cultures are responsible for building both pyramids. Charles Hapgood's book, Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings, is a good place to start.

- The Pyramid of the Sun is associated with Quetzalcoatl, the winged serpent god. The Pyramid of Giza is associated with Thoth, the Egyptian god of knowledge and wisdom. There are many similarities between the two dieties, mainly that they were teachers of mathematics, architecture, numerology, etc. Both share the symbolic number of 52, both gods are sometimes associated with a serpent or winged serpent. Allow me to speculate that both dieties were the same person.

- Alignments: As far as alignments go, I couldn't find anything that linked Teotihuacan with Giza. Using Photoshop, I played around for an hour, overlaying both pyramids and trying to see if other things matched up. All I was looking for was 3 aligned objects, but I couldn't find it. I tried rotating the whole thing by 15.28 degrees due north; I tried overlaying the Jaguar temple with the Sphinx; I tried matching the Khufu pyramid with the temple of Quetzalcoatl... nothing worked. So far, nothing there.

I'd just like to close this post by saying that I am biased in believing that there is indeed a correlation between both pyramids. Whatever link exists could lead thousands of years before they were actually built, which would explain the discrepancies in building material and techniques.

What we're dealing here is a puzzle old as civilization itself, and I find it foolish to dismiss certain theories because the status quo does not agree with them. Just look at what happened to independent researchers like Rudolf Gantenbrink, Robert Schoch and Graham Hancock when they tried to investigate the structures at Giza: they got kicked out, and the director of Egyptian antiquities, Dr. Zahi Hawass, deals with "alternative views" with something that resembles religious zeal. I just think that he should stop dealing with people as if they were children and start answering questions.
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Old 24th June 2003, 11:35 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Frostbite

I'll start by disproving that the Great Pyramid was built by Khufu.
You use very strong words here. I'll leave answering to your points to Joshua because he'll do it better than I would, but I just have to comment on one thing:

Quote:
A pyramid design can be found on the Narmer palette. Some say it depicts a raft (?) but it appears clear to me that a rectangle (Upper and Lower Egypts united) containing a pyramid symbol in its upper part could mean the Giza plateau.
I have been staring at the Narrmer palette (well, a picture of it) for several minutes and I can't see any pyramid figures in it. Could you explain what you mean by it.
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Old 24th June 2003, 11:54 AM   #40
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You use very strong words here. I'll leave answering to your points to Joshua because he'll do it better than I would, but I just have to comment on one thing:
Well it's not like anyone ever proved Khufu built the Great Pyramid in the first place anyway. There still is a debate about the two Great Pyramids and the Sphinx. Bad choice of words on my part though.

Quote:
I have been staring at the Narrmer palette (well, a picture of it) for several minutes and I can't see any pyramid figures in it. Could you explain what you mean by it.


On the upper-left corner, left of king Narmer wearing the crown of unified Egypt, there's a rectangle with a pyramid symbol in it. According to dynastic egyptian history, pharaohs didn't start building pyramids until many generations later. The symbol could mean anything else though, but I can't find anything.

Edit: Problems with that idea is the triangle symbol could very well represent the Nile Delta, and that ancient Egyptians reversed north and south, so technically the pyramid symbol should've been on the bottom of the triangle.
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