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Old 17th December 2005, 04:58 PM   #1
Roadtoad
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Kurious Kathy's Faithlessness.

Frankly, I haven't had to deal much with this woman, and I'm thankful for that. I have no patience with arrogance, bigotry, rudeness, and vulgarity couched in the seemingly benign mantle of "Faith."

I'm going to repeat a lot of what I've said over time, and I'm hoping it sticks. I used to be one of those like Kathy. I regret this. Because of that sort of activity on my part, I lost good friends. I miss them, because unlike me, they were good people.

Understand that I didn't start out in a religious home. While I was baptised into the Episcopal Church, faith wasn't a big deal for us, particularly since my mother decided to turn her back on the Church after the Episcopal Church refused her Communion, because she divorced my biological father. (A terrible thing, that, running away from a marriage because you don't enjoy getting the living hell knocked out of you.)

I was not a convenient child for her. That showed repeatedly in how she treated me, in what she said to me, and what she said to other people. And while I was in my 30's when she finally declared in front of me, my wife, and my kids, that had abortion been safe and legal, she would have aborted me, I had already been aware years before that I wasn't exactly a blessing to her.

Bear in mind that most of us turn to religion (I didn't say "Faith") because we lack something in our lives. In my case, I didn't belong to anything, certainly not my own family, unless I was willing to play certain roles. Since I didn't want to play those roles anymore, (and, no, I won't discuss them again), I had to find a new place where I would be welcome.

One of the things anyone considering religion ought to do is check the fruit. Take a long look at the people you want follow, and see if that is the kind of person you want to be. My mistake was that I started reading the Bible, but I didn't start looking at what the people I would be associating with were like. The great tales of the faithful, of people who surrendered their lives not only for what they believed, but for the benefit of others, (take note, Kathy), particularly as you find in books like Through Gates of Splendor, are inspirational, but for the most part, you rarely encounter people who are like that in real life.

That sort of a life is one filled with Courage, which is one thing you won't encounter very often in most Churches in the United States anymore.

This doesn't mean you won't encounter courage. I did on many occasions. But it was a rare thing.

One of the great people of courage I encountered was a retired pastor, Reverend William Lawson. He was a tall man, (around 6'2"), a former cowboy, and a man who, in his seventies and eighties, helped to build a new church in Roseville, CA. (Still standing, physically, though spiritually, it's anyone's guess.) While Peggy, my sons, and I were considered pariahs in our local congregation, left out of a lot, Pastor Lawson would invite us over for lunch on Sunday afternoons right after Church. It wasn't fancy, just chili dogs and potato chips, washed down with iced tea, but in his presence, with his remarkable kindness and honesty, earned over the course of his then-nearly 90 years, it was filet mignon, baked potato, and fine champagne. Rather than participate in the belittlement and prejudice we encountered, he chose to become our friend.

In that environment, it was very easy to believe, particularly since not only was Pastor Lawson's intent benign, but his actions, his past, his belief. He had a responsibility to live as God wanted him to live, to give of himself to others, and if it came down to it, to surrender his life so another might live. I suspect that if necessary, he'd surrender his place in Heaven so another might be able to live eternally. That's the kind of man he was.

There's a lot of hate that shows up in Christian Churches nowadays. A lot of dishonesty, too, to judge by the declaration of some pastors that they don't have cliques in their churches, or that they don't play favorites. They deceive themselves, thinking they're more spiritual than they really are. And many of them play the same sort of games that Kathy, Billiefan, 1inChrist, and so many others have, namely hitting people with a lot of verbiage, then running like hell for the door when people call them on it, or changing the subject when they're facing real evidence. And while Pastor Lawson would have said, simply, "I don't have an answer for you," that wouldn't have prevented him from listening to what you had to say, and it would have been something which gave impetus to him inviting you over for chili dogs so the two of you could sit down and figure it out. It's a far cry from bludgeoning people to death with incessant declarations of God's glory, declarations which have no weight due to the lack of courage, love, faith, and integrity on the part of those making the declaration.

See, one of the funny things about me is that now that I have some serious grounding in the real world, I understand that there's nothing wrong with demanding evidence for why you choose to believe. I don't have a real answer for that, and I'm trying hard to find it. While I'm still nominally a Christian, I'm also someone looking for solid evidence for why I should believe. I may never find the evidence I'm looking for, and the reality is that I might have to admit that it simply does not exist. It might even mean, to be completely honest, that there is no God to be searching for. I have to admit that if I'm an honest man, which I would rather be, than one deceived.

It means I have to look long and hard at what I'm facing eternally, and if that means I'm face to face with a God who says, "Sorry, you didn't find me where I was, (in downtown Cleveland), and even though you were looking hard, you get to go to Hell," then I've got to wonder if in fact whom I'm facing is God at all. Because, to put it simply, how do you find God, if God is spirit?

For another point, if the declaration of faith is what saves you, how do you justify the damnation of people like Cleon, of Fowlsound, or Tim, or Darat, or any number of people who are humble, kind, merciful, courageous, honest, traits the Bible says are Fruit of the Spirit, but who have never made a declaration of Faith in Christ? Why would you condemn such people if they are willing to serve their fellow man, but because they lack one thing, they don't darken the door of a Church, they're destined for an eternity of misery?

And for that matter, why would you express glee over such a fate? What kind of spiritual bastard would do such a thing? How does that honor any God, particularly one who, according to the Gospel, sent his only begotten son to die on a cross for the salvation of the world?

If you believe in that sort of a God, one who would sacrifice Himself for others, how can you participate in hit-and-run posting, how can you damn people for what they do not believe, how can you not try and model the very behavior that is honored that the God you say compels you to speak His name? Sorry, but Kurious Kathy does not, and I don't think she ever will.

If anything, she reminds me of that idiot Fowlsound encountered, who damned him after learning he wasn't "saved," noting he'd spend an eternity in Hellfire. It was cruel, particularly as he was going through another round in his battle with cancer. I keep thinking Pastor Lawson would have wanted to invite Fowl over for chili dogs, just so he could listen to what Fowl had to say, and to take a few minutes to pray for him. ("It might not help, but it sure can't hurt," he'd say with a laugh.)

I miss my friend. I miss him badly. I keep thinking if God is just, maybe all of us, the friends I've made here, and those I miss so badly, those I drove away in my "zeal" for God's house, will all be reunited if there's a Heaven to be had.

What truly matters? It can't be bland recitation of the Four Spiritual Laws, childish bleats of a Sinner's Prayer, and puerile finger-pointing in the name of a heartless God who damns those who see greater value in true service, which is supposed to be man's true religion. If that's the case, I'll take my chances with Hell.

I doubt that it is.

Hope you guys like chili dogs.
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Old 17th December 2005, 05:13 PM   #2
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RT:

Damned well said.

I'm not intolerant of religion. I really am not. But I have nothing but scorn for KK and people like her. You said it better.

Bastard

But it earns a nom, anyway. Oh, and no chilidogs for me, either. But I'll take a burger if you grill one. Hell, come to Peoria sometime and I'll grill one for ya.

Cheers!
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Old 17th December 2005, 05:33 PM   #3
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I always enjoy reading your posts RT. I was a true believer at one time. I can second many of your sentiments.

Thanks

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Old 17th December 2005, 06:41 PM   #4
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Can it be that Kathy is more to be pitied than censured? Anyone who is so blindly dogmatic and adamantly defensive must have something wrong. Perhaps she is filling a terrible void in her life with Jesus.

Although I have to admit she poses serious problems for me as well.
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Old 17th December 2005, 07:15 PM   #5
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RT: Your posts always fills my eyes with tears, and my heart with joy.

For my eyes it is either because your posts make me sad that someone have to go throug that, or that you make me understand the depths of other humans in a way i have never understood before. Either it is tears of sadness for other peoples suffering, or it is tears of joy, but i'm never able to hold back.

And for my heart i will always find joy in passion you put into everything you write, even when you write a sad post about something awfull that have happened to you and those you love, my heart is filled with joy for the kind of person you are, and the support i see you give to others.

Keep it going, if i were anywhere near you and not on the other side of the planet i would, as many others, buy you a pint. And enjoy the minutes i could have in the company of a man that is surely a much better human than me.

All i can hope for is that i will learn from a better example.

Humbly
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Old 18th December 2005, 12:02 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by LibraryLady View Post
Can it be that Kathy is more to be pitied than censured? Anyone who is so blindly dogmatic and adamantly defensive must have something wrong. Perhaps she is filling a terrible void in her life with Jesus.
I think you're on to something... my guess would be this:

Kathy's having/had a rough time/life. Kathy suffers from depression and possibly has other psychological issues. Kathy tries to find acceptance/security/substance/support in various New-Age flavored woo ways (she mentions paganism repeatedly and the devil, but all she really specified was Tarot cards and crystals I believe... evil enough to her now to qualify as satanic, I guess) but finds little solace or aid. In this vulnerable time, someone gets hold of her and promises her happiness, acceptance, self-worth and eternal reward. I mean, what can be better than going from miserable and alone to being GOD'S messenger? I see the attraction, but instead of dealing with her underlying problems, she's unfortunately just glossed over them with her saccharin savior. Sure, she feels great and fulfilled and important now, but sooner or later will come a situation that her Redi-List of All-Purpose Bible Quotations doesn't cure or can't explain and I fear the house of cards will come tumbling down. Faith and belief can be strong aids to people, but they must be built on a solid foundation. I have serious doubts that she understands what she professes so avidly on anything but the most superficial of levels. Her pastor's Quote-of-the-Moment is not the cure all she seeks. Without addressing her issues and becoming a healthy, whole person outside of her beliefs, they're just gilding on a ramshackle frame.

Despite the arrogance, self-righteousness, and moral superiority oozing from her posts, throughout them I get a vibe of innocent sincerity... naiveté. As offensive as her words/attitude may be, I believe she absolutely cannot fathom how anyone could perceive them as such. In her mind, she's got The TRUTH and she's doing us a favor and trying to save us from HELLFIRE!!! She's trying to give away a million bucks and thinks we're nuts wanting to stay impoverished and hungry... because considering that we are truly happy and content, or gods-forbid have found a different answer will chip away at the shell she's built around herself and that she now depends on to get through the day. I wouldn't even want to try to disabuse her of her fantasies right now... to me it's obvious that she's too fragile to survive without them.

I figure the best thing is to just be nice and try to enlighten her gradually as long as she continues to come around... beating her about the head and shoulders with biblical contradictions and flagellating her with examples of christian hypocrisy (including her own) would be about as effective as her empty recitation of feel-good scriptural passages are on us. I wish she'd get her mind out of neutral and put it in gear... she could use some help it seems, even if she holds onto belief... examining her faith, and more importantly herself, rationally would benefit her a lot better than the snake oil she's been hooked on.

Kathy, if I've got you pegged wrong, I sincerely apologize. But this is the conclusion I've come to reading your posts here. Perhaps I, and others, would have a more accurate picture of you if you'd actually converse with us rather than proselytizing and constantly spouting off scripture and platitudes.

Last edited by Ragutis; 18th December 2005 at 12:06 AM.
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Old 18th December 2005, 12:09 AM   #7
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Kathy is a big poopy head, fundamentalist, a-hole. There is no excuse for that.
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Old 18th December 2005, 12:48 AM   #8
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I suppose if those who called themselves christians all at once stopped trying to make people believe, and instead prayed for those who they love out of patience and hope that God will do a miracle in their life and lead them...then I suppose liberty would be easier to see. But at the moment, people don't know what to believe, and perhaps it's something to consider, that maybe it is becoming harder to follow Christ, while at the same time the world is changing and people are becoming desperate for liberty.
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Old 18th December 2005, 01:02 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Kathy is a big poopy head, fundamentalist, a-hole. There is no excuse for that.
To paraphrase a certain religious figure from the early years of the Roman Empire, let he who is not a poopy-head cast the first stone. Lots of people are poopy-heads, and indeed, far more people are poopy-heads than most people are willing to admit. Poop infests the minds of many great people. As a general thing however, this is merely out of ignorance. Most poopy-heads are poopy-heads simply because they let themselves be taken by the poop. Forgive the poopy-heads, for they know not what they do. ^_^
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Old 18th December 2005, 01:07 AM   #10
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[casting first stone]

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Old 18th December 2005, 01:41 AM   #11
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To quote the late great Spike Milligan, she does not so much enjoy her religion as suffer from it.
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Old 18th December 2005, 09:56 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Zep View Post
To quote the late great Spike Milligan, she does not so much enjoy her religion as suffer from it.
Good quote. If I had to guess, that's sig material.

(ETA: Why do we have to suffer with her?)

Last edited by Roadtoad; 18th December 2005 at 10:19 AM.
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Old 18th December 2005, 01:54 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Roadtoad View Post
Good quote. If I had to guess, that's sig material.

(ETA: Why do we have to suffer with her?)

Perhaps that is what's meant by Mark 10:14
Quote:
But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
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Old 19th December 2005, 03:59 PM   #14
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Did I miss something somewhere? What did she say?

Flick
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Old 19th December 2005, 05:14 PM   #15
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RT:

Yet again, a great post. I applaud your candor. You, sir, are a king among men.






(just one thing...

Quote:
Cleon, of Fowlsound
Someone should remind Cleon that he needs to renew his passport with the Office of Naturalization here in the United Fowlsound Emirates. Also, he should check with the INS office locally about when his visa is up.)
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Old 19th December 2005, 07:22 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by fowlsound View Post
RT:

Yet again, a great post. I applaud your candor. You, sir, are a king among men.






(just one thing...



Someone should remind Cleon that he needs to renew his passport with the Office of Naturalization here in the United Fowlsound Emirates. Also, he should check with the INS office locally about when his visa is up.)

Just for you, Fowl, I present The Republic of Fowlsound

if you like it, PM me, I'll give you the password.

ET: fix linky
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Last edited by kmortis; 19th December 2005 at 07:27 PM.
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Old 19th December 2005, 07:26 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by kmortis View Post
Just for you, Fowl, I present The Republic of Fowlsound

if you like it, PM me, I'll give you the password.

Fix the link and I'll let you know...
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Old 19th December 2005, 08:06 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by stamenflicker View Post
Did I miss something somewhere? What did she say?

Flick
The best thing I can suggest to you, Flick, is to run a search of her posts, and read through them. Prepare to cringe. This is the sort of hateful nutjob that makes your job harder. You have my sympathy.
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Old 19th December 2005, 09:49 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Roadtoad View Post
The best thing I can suggest to you, Flick, is to run a search of her posts, and read through them. Prepare to cringe. This is the sort of hateful nutjob that makes your job harder. You have my sympathy.
I have read some of her posts (but certainly not all) and she doesn't come over as a hateful nutjob to me. I think referencing people as nutjobs dehumanizes them and should be avoided to the best of our ability.

From what I have read I don't understand the term hateful either as it applies to her words.

We all experience things in life that we have trouble dealing with. We all always want something more whether it be a material possession, a state of mind or something else, we are never satisfied.

It appears to me that Kathy is no different in this regard, she longed for something to fill the void, believes she has found what she is looking for and is sharing it with us, albeit in a way many of us find offensive.

I also am looking to fill that void, that vague "I will be happy as soon as..."

I haven't found the solution yet, but I am still looking. Perhaps one day I will find something that fills the void temporarily or permanently and upon feeling happy I will want to share that. I would hope I wouldn't be referred to as a hateful nutjob for doing so.

My life didn't come with an instruction manual so I just plod along trying to figure things out as best I can. While I do fall into the trap at times, I try to avoid dehumanizing those who believe they have found the right path even when it is a path I have traveled and moved beyond. Maybe I was wrong. And even if I was right to move beyond, I still believed it was the right path at one time so I am just as guilty of being wrong.
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Old 20th December 2005, 06:31 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by username View Post
I think referencing people as nutjobs dehumanizes them and should be avoided to the best of our ability.
I think calling Kathy by that adjective is just accurate.
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Old 20th December 2005, 06:38 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Ragutis View Post
I think you're on to something... my guess would be this:

Kathy's having/had a rough time/life. Kathy suffers from depression and possibly has other psychological issues. Kathy tries to find acceptance/security/substance/support in various New-Age flavored woo ways (she mentions paganism repeatedly and the devil, but all she really specified was Tarot cards and crystals I believe... evil enough to her now to qualify as satanic, I guess) but finds little solace or aid. In this vulnerable time, someone gets hold of her and promises her happiness, acceptance, self-worth and eternal reward. I mean, what can be better than going from miserable and alone to being GOD'S messenger? I see the attraction, but instead of dealing with her underlying problems, she's unfortunately just glossed over them with her saccharin savior. Sure, she feels great and fulfilled and important now, but sooner or later will come a situation that her Redi-List of All-Purpose Bible Quotations doesn't cure or can't explain and I fear the house of cards will come tumbling down. Faith and belief can be strong aids to people, but they must be built on a solid foundation. I have serious doubts that she understands what she professes so avidly on anything but the most superficial of levels. Her pastor's Quote-of-the-Moment is not the cure all she seeks. Without addressing her issues and becoming a healthy, whole person outside of her beliefs, they're just gilding on a ramshackle frame.

Despite the arrogance, self-righteousness, and moral superiority oozing from her posts, throughout them I get a vibe of innocent sincerity... naiveté. As offensive as her words/attitude may be, I believe she absolutely cannot fathom how anyone could perceive them as such. In her mind, she's got The TRUTH and she's doing us a favor and trying to save us from HELLFIRE!!! She's trying to give away a million bucks and thinks we're nuts wanting to stay impoverished and hungry... because considering that we are truly happy and content, or gods-forbid have found a different answer will chip away at the shell she's built around herself and that she now depends on to get through the day. I wouldn't even want to try to disabuse her of her fantasies right now... to me it's obvious that she's too fragile to survive without them.

I figure the best thing is to just be nice and try to enlighten her gradually as long as she continues to come around... beating her about the head and shoulders with biblical contradictions and flagellating her with examples of christian hypocrisy (including her own) would be about as effective as her empty recitation of feel-good scriptural passages are on us. I wish she'd get her mind out of neutral and put it in gear... she could use some help it seems, even if she holds onto belief... examining her faith, and more importantly herself, rationally would benefit her a lot better than the snake oil she's been hooked on.

Kathy, if I've got you pegged wrong, I sincerely apologize. But this is the conclusion I've come to reading your posts here. Perhaps I, and others, would have a more accurate picture of you if you'd actually converse with us rather than proselytizing and constantly spouting off scripture and platitudes.


I was wrong.

Wrong, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG WRONG WRONG

She is in fact "a big poopy head, fundamentalist, a-hole" as was stated earlier.
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Old 20th December 2005, 06:42 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Ragutis View Post
I was wrong.

Wrong, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG WRONG WRONG

She is in fact "a big poopy head, fundamentalist, a-hole" as was stated earlier.

This is a beautiful post.

Brought tears to my eyes.

I am nominating it.
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Old 20th December 2005, 06:58 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Ragutis View Post
She is in fact "a big poopy head, fundamentalist, a-hole" as was stated earlier.

Some people learn that I am, in fact, one of the wisest people on the forum a bit too late. I'm always right, once you figure this out, things become easier.
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Old 20th December 2005, 09:50 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by username View Post
I have read some of her posts (but certainly not all) and she doesn't come over as a hateful nutjob to me. I think referencing people as nutjobs dehumanizes them and should be avoided to the best of our ability.

From what I have read I don't understand the term hateful either as it applies to her words.

We all experience things in life that we have trouble dealing with. We all always want something more whether it be a material possession, a state of mind or something else, we are never satisfied.

It appears to me that Kathy is no different in this regard, she longed for something to fill the void, believes she has found what she is looking for and is sharing it with us, albeit in a way many of us find offensive.

I also am looking to fill that void, that vague "I will be happy as soon as..."

I haven't found the solution yet, but I am still looking. Perhaps one day I will find something that fills the void temporarily or permanently and upon feeling happy I will want to share that. I would hope I wouldn't be referred to as a hateful nutjob for doing so.

My life didn't come with an instruction manual so I just plod along trying to figure things out as best I can. While I do fall into the trap at times, I try to avoid dehumanizing those who believe they have found the right path even when it is a path I have traveled and moved beyond. Maybe I was wrong. And even if I was right to move beyond, I still believed it was the right path at one time so I am just as guilty of being wrong.
I'm sorry to disagree with you on this, Username. Normally, we find ourselves in agreement on a lot more than you realize.

And normally, I would agree that using a perjorative against someone is to be avoided. However, Kathy has proven time and again, in spite of the sugar coating of her words, she's hateful and bigoted. We are dealing with someone who takes the Word Of God, and uses it as a weapon, instead of as a balm, for those who hurt.

The best way I can describe it is this way: Inside the batteries in my truck is Sulfuric Acid. As long as it's in the battery and reacting with the plates, I get the minimum 12 volts necessary to crank the starter and get my Kenworth running, as well as power the lights and other crap I have to deal with. Empty that acid out of the batteries, and start splashing it around onto people, and you're going to have lots of scarred individuals, people who are not going to want to be around you. (NB: If you can wash it off quick enough with cold running water, keeping it on the wound for at least a good five to thirty minutes, you might be able to avoid any serious scarring. Trust me on this.)

The Gospel can best be described in similar terms. As long as it's reacting inside someone, as long as they internalize and work within themselves on what's "sinful," then they can start to make changes, and can help others. (The Epistle of James goes into more detail on this.) It's when they start flinging it around, as Slingblade has described, using it in the method she's described, that things get ugly.

I don't see that Kathy has internalized any of it. Instead, it isn't something to be taken in and allowed to react with her own heart, it's something to be doused on all those "pagans," because Kathy's okay, it's the rest of us who are all f***ed up, and by God, she's going to straighten us out. It's a nasty, ugly attitude. Ken is kind in calling her a "poopie-head." My description, in my own view, may not be as pleasant, and would certainly get me a warning from Darat, but it's considerably more accurate.

I keep thinking Kathy would do well to read the book of 2Samuel, and read about Uriah the Hittite, and what happened to him under King David. Maybe she'd learn from it, but I doubt it. If anything, I would think she'd be at the front of the line looking for an opportunity to "help" David out. This is not someone I would trust, certainly not with my kids in a Sunday School class with her, nor would I want her around my wife, for fear of the nasty rumors she'd eventually spread about Peggy.

(You will note, Kathy has yet to answer ANYTHING I've said in any thread where we've connected. I'm willing to bet I've nailed her, and she knows it.)

Perhaps, Username, the reality is that Kathy isn't a nutjob. Instead, she's cruel, inhumane, and vicious. She doesn't care about other people's souls, mainly because she could care less about her own. If she did, she'd be tending to the ugliness that dwells within her own heart first.
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Old 20th December 2005, 09:59 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Roadtoad View Post
I'm sorry to disagree with you on this, Username. Normally, we find ourselves in agreement on a lot more than you realize.

And normally, I would agree that using a perjorative against someone is to be avoided. However, Kathy has proven time and again, in spite of the sugar coating of her words, she's hateful and bigoted. We are dealing with someone who takes the Word Of God, and uses it as a weapon, instead of as a balm, for those who hurt.

The best way I can describe it is this way: Inside the batteries in my truck is Sulfuric Acid. As long as it's in the battery and reacting with the plates, I get the minimum 12 volts necessary to crank the starter and get my Kenworth running, as well as power the lights and other crap I have to deal with. Empty that acid out of the batteries, and start splashing it around onto people, and you're going to have lots of scarred individuals, people who are not going to want to be around you. (NB: If you can wash it off quick enough with cold running water, keeping it on the wound for at least a good five to thirty minutes, you might be able to avoid any serious scarring. Trust me on this.)

The Gospel can best be described in similar terms. As long as it's reacting inside someone, as long as they internalize and work within themselves on what's "sinful," then they can start to make changes, and can help others. (The Epistle of James goes into more detail on this.) It's when they start flinging it around, as Slingblade has described, using it in the method she's described, that things get ugly.

I don't see that Kathy has internalized any of it. Instead, it isn't something to be taken in and allowed to react with her own heart, it's something to be doused on all those "pagans," because Kathy's okay, it's the rest of us who are all f***ed up, and by God, she's going to straighten us out. It's a nasty, ugly attitude. Ken is kind in calling her a "poopie-head." My description, in my own view, may not be as pleasant, and would certainly get me a warning from Darat, but it's considerably more accurate.

I keep thinking Kathy would do well to read the book of 2Samuel, and read about Uriah the Hittite, and what happened to him under King David. Maybe she'd learn from it, but I doubt it. If anything, I would think she'd be at the front of the line looking for an opportunity to "help" David out. This is not someone I would trust, certainly not with my kids in a Sunday School class with her, nor would I want her around my wife, for fear of the nasty rumors she'd eventually spread about Peggy.

(You will note, Kathy has yet to answer ANYTHING I've said in any thread where we've connected. I'm willing to bet I've nailed her, and she knows it.)

Perhaps, Username, the reality is that Kathy isn't a nutjob. Instead, she's cruel, inhumane, and vicious. She doesn't care about other people's souls, mainly because she could care less about her own. If she did, she'd be tending to the ugliness that dwells within her own heart first.

Again, excellent and well worded post.

small nitpick: Kathy has yet to answer anything ANYONE has asked of her in ANY thread. All she does is preach and insult.
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Old 20th December 2005, 10:10 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Roadtoad View Post
I'm sorry to disagree with you on this, Username. Normally, we find ourselves in agreement on a lot more than you realize.
I remember your uername from pther posts whose titles I have forgotten. I recall that we do often agree or at least understand each other.

Quote:
And normally, I would agree that using a perjorative against someone is to be avoided. However, Kathy has proven time and again, in spite of the sugar coating of her words, she's hateful and bigoted. We are dealing with someone who takes the Word Of God, and uses it as a weapon, instead of as a balm, for those who hurt.
I agree.

Quote:
The best way I can describe it is this way: Inside the batteries in my truck is Sulfuric Acid. As long as it's in the battery and reacting with the plates, I get the minimum 12 volts necessary to crank the starter and get my Kenworth running, as well as power the lights and other crap I have to deal with. Empty that acid out of the batteries, and start splashing it around onto people, and you're going to have lots of scarred individuals, people who are not going to want to be around you. (NB: If you can wash it off quick enough with cold running water, keeping it on the wound for at least a good five to thirty minutes, you might be able to avoid any serious scarring. Trust me on this.)

The Gospel can best be described in similar terms. As long as it's reacting inside someone, as long as they internalize and work within themselves on what's "sinful," then they can start to make changes, and can help others. (The Epistle of James goes into more detail on this.) It's when they start flinging it around, as Slingblade has described, using it in the method she's described, that things get ugly.
I agree it is juvenile, and perhaps ugly. I do not think it hateful or evil though.

Quote:
I don't see that Kathy has internalized any of it. Instead, it isn't something to be taken in and allowed to react with her own heart, it's something to be doused on all those "pagans," because Kathy's okay, it's the rest of us who are all f***ed up, and by God, she's going to straighten us out. It's a nasty, ugly attitude. Ken is kind in calling her a "poopie-head." My description, in my own view, may not be as pleasant, and would certainly get me a warning from Darat, but it's considerably more accurate.
OK, here is the thing. Before I even say this I feel like a hypocrite. Nevertheless, this Kathy is a real person like you and me. She has a different view than you and I do therefore she views right and wrong differently than you or I do. I don't think she is evil or intentionally mean.

Quote:
I keep thinking Kathy would do well to read the book of 2Samuel, and read about Uriah the Hittite, and what happened to him under King David. Maybe she'd learn from it, but I doubt it. If anything, I would think she'd be at the front of the line looking for an opportunity to "help" David out. This is not someone I would trust, certainly not with my kids in a Sunday School class with her, nor would I want her around my wife, for fear of the nasty rumors she'd eventually spread about Peggy.
I think most 'god fearing' people are unworthy of my trust, but that doesn't make them mean or evil, just wrong.

Quote:
(You will note, Kathy has yet to answer ANYTHING I've said in any thread where we've connected. I'm willing to bet I've nailed her, and she knows it.)
I have noted she hasn't responded.

Quote:
Perhaps, Username, the reality is that Kathy isn't a nutjob. Instead, she's cruel, inhumane, and vicious. She doesn't care about other people's souls, mainly because she could care less about her own. If she did, she'd be tending to the ugliness that dwells within her own heart first.
Perhaps, but who among us first looks into our own heart? We tend to recognize human failures in others first. It is only when we come to realize we, too, have these failings that we are motivated to change. I can't change you, you can't change me and neither of us can change Kathy. Kathy is who she is as a result of her experiences and her responses to those experiences, as we are. We all view ourselves as the standard by which others are measured.

Kathy is a person and to the extent she is mean, she is hurting. An injured dog will bite, not because it is mean, but because it is in pain.

Surely no matter how worthless you deem Kathy to be you can at least equate her with a good dog that is injured? We don't retaliate against the dog's aggression, we simply understand that an injured dog will be aggressive and we interact with the dog accordingly.
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Old 20th December 2005, 10:22 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by username View Post
I remember your uername from pther posts whose titles I have forgotten. I recall that we do often agree or at least understand each other.



I agree.



I agree it is juvenile, and perhaps ugly. I do not think it hateful or evil though.



OK, here is the thing. Before I even say this I feel like a hypocrite. Nevertheless, this Kathy is a real person like you and me. She has a different view than you and I do therefore she views right and wrong differently than you or I do. I don't think she is evil or intentionally mean.



I think most 'god fearing' people are unworthy of my trust, but that doesn't make them mean or evil, just wrong.



I have noted she hasn't responded.



Perhaps, but who among us first looks into our own heart? We tend to recognize human failures in others first. It is only when we come to realize we, too, have these failings that we are motivated to change. I can't change you, you can't change me and neither of us can change Kathy. Kathy is who she is as a result of her experiences and her responses to those experiences, as we are. We all view ourselves as the standard by which others are measured.

Kathy is a person and to the extent she is mean, she is hurting. An injured dog will bite, not because it is mean, but because it is in pain.

Surely no matter how worthless you deem Kathy to be you can at least equate her with a good dog that is injured? We don't retaliate against the dog's aggression, we simply understand that an injured dog will be aggressive and we interact with the dog accordingly.

Not to nitpick, but I am very willing to list my shortcomings and discuss them. Not only that, I will admit to them and hope to learn and better myself without needing to do it in the name of God. I do it for the mere sake of trying to be a better person on my own, without someone telling me how from the authority of God. I do it for the mere sake of what time we all have here on this earth, and what can be best made of it. Reason, discourse adn learning are paramount to making the best of our short time.

In fact, this specifically is what seperates me from Kathy. She is unwilling to have her faith challenged, to discuss shortcomings of her beliefs or to own up to her own shortcomings without prefacing it with original sin.

Other posters here are as open and honest, and do this for the same reasons I do whether they are athiest, theist, deist or christian.
Roadtoad, Ragutis, and slingblade are shining examples.

I don't remember you and I having direct discourse in any threads, username, but I do appreciate your open and caring tone in your posts. I politely agree to disagree in regards to Kathy specifically, but in general your points do apply to many who post here and other forums.
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Old 20th December 2005, 10:38 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by fowlsound View Post
In fact, this specifically is what seperates me from Kathy. She is unwilling to have her faith challenged, to discuss shortcomings of her beliefs or to own up to her own shortcomings without prefacing it with original sin.
Are you then willing to lay yourself completely bare to the general public? Are you willing to do so in front of your children (assuming you have children)? Are you willing to do so in front of your spouse (assuming you have another than fullfills the role of spouse)? Are you willing to do so in front of your parents/guardians?

Quote:
Other posters here are as open and honest, and do this for the same reasons I do whether they are athiest, theist, deist or christian.
Roadtoad, Ragutis, and slingblade are shining examples.
I think Kathy is being as open and honest as she is capable. She may not be capable of being as open as you are, but this doesn't mean she isn't human. From Jesus to Hitler I know of no human who delighted in what they believed to be evil. Therefore I do not regard Kathy as evil.

The other term used to describe her is 'nutjob'. This term is, of course, defined as a matter of convenience. Anyone that we cannot relate with qualifies.

I mean, clearly we are right and Kathy wrong. The fact she can't see this necessarily means she is crazy.

Quote:
I don't remember you and I having direct discourse in any threads, username, but I do appreciate your open and caring tone in your posts. I politely agree to disagree in regards to Kathy specifically, but in general your points do apply to many who post here and other forums.
Well thank you, sincerily.

Whatever Kathy may be, she is human. As such she is nothing that other humans before her have been.

She therefore deserves the same rights and dignity as any other human.

Criticize her words all you want, this doesn't trouble me.

Single her out for dehumanization and I do not fear for her, I fear for those who are willing to dehumanize.

Dehumanizing a human being is always wrong.
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Old 20th December 2005, 10:40 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by username View Post

She therefore deserves the same rights and dignity as any other human.
You are correct, as such, if any other human acts the same way, I will give them the same respect that I give kathy.

Her delusions do not give her a free pass to be a bigotted, hateful freak.
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Old 21st December 2005, 01:42 PM   #30
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It was this post from KK that put me over the edge
Originally Posted by kurious_kathy View Post
I'm sorry if this really happened to you? Sounds like not the real deal or Satan had some real strongholds on Him? Could it be that you both provoked eachother to anger? It can be ugly to see what both people might have done to make that situation become out of control. I have a hard time thinking marital problems are one sided? Did you ever hit Him?
I think the big factor here is that even if He was or is wrong, you need to forgive him. Have you done that? You won't heal from that kind of hurt unless you do. I hope you are doing OK now. I would also hope you wouldn't blame God for what your ex-husband did to you!
Feel free to back up a few posts to make sure you are taking it in context.

I think she needs help. It may not be fair to call her a nutjob, but as far as I am concerned, KK has deservedly earned the title of closed-minded bigot.

KK, if you are reading this thread, I urge you to talk to other Christians in other congregations. Seek out other ministers and congregants. There are more mature forms of Christianity available to you.
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Old 21st December 2005, 01:47 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by username View Post
Are you then willing to lay yourself completely bare to the general public? Are you willing to do so in front of your children (assuming you have children)? Are you willing to do so in front of your spouse (assuming you have another than fullfills the role of spouse)? Are you willing to do so in front of your parents/guardians?



I think Kathy is being as open and honest as she is capable. She may not be capable of being as open as you are, but this doesn't mean she isn't human. From Jesus to Hitler I know of no human who delighted in what they believed to be evil. Therefore I do not regard Kathy as evil.

The other term used to describe her is 'nutjob'. This term is, of course, defined as a matter of convenience. Anyone that we cannot relate with qualifies.

I mean, clearly we are right and Kathy wrong. The fact she can't see this necessarily means she is crazy.



Well thank you, sincerily.

Whatever Kathy may be, she is human. As such she is nothing that other humans before her have been.

She therefore deserves the same rights and dignity as any other human.

Criticize her words all you want, this doesn't trouble me.

Single her out for dehumanization and I do not fear for her, I fear for those who are willing to dehumanize.

Dehumanizing a human being is always wrong.

Sure, if it's an honest discussion, I would certainly do that. which of my shortcomings would you like to discuss? My quick anger, or my difficulty keeping patient with someone who constantly does NOT answer any questions or engage in meaningful discourse but does preach alot, and say nasty things from time to time?

I do not dehumanize her. being a bigoted jerk who most likely has mental problems is very much human.

Anyway, it's a moot point since she seems to have run off.
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Old 21st December 2005, 01:57 PM   #32
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What the pi$$er is, there are some really smart, funny, intelligent, well-spoken people over on her other haunt. Do we get them?? Noooooo. We get her and her husband...Happy, happy, joy, FRICKIN' joy.
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Old 21st December 2005, 02:01 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by kmortis View Post
What the pi$$er is, there are some really smart, funny, intelligent, well-spoken people over on her other haunt. Do we get them?? Noooooo. We get her and her husband...Happy, happy, joy, FRICKIN' joy.

The reasonable smart ones don't troll for converts, that's why.
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Old 21st December 2005, 02:15 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by fowlsound View Post
The reasonable smart ones don't troll for converts, that's why.
Good point. They also don't pi$$ us off.

They actually have a thread covering the logical fallacies over there. It's not bad, showing some good thought. I happen to disagree with some of the examples, but they do illustrate the fallacies well.

Maybe I'll get an account over there and make KKs worst nightmares come true. MOUHAHAHAHAHAHA
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Old 21st December 2005, 02:19 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by kmortis View Post
Good point. They also don't pi$$ us off.

They actually have a thread covering the logical fallacies over there. It's not bad, showing some good thought. I happen to disagree with some of the examples, but they do illustrate the fallacies well.

Maybe I'll get an account over there and make KKs worst nightmares come true. MOUHAHAHAHAHAHA

I would pay to see that.

Seriously.

If you do, let meknow I will join you.
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Old 21st December 2005, 04:45 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by fowlsound View Post
I would pay to see that.

Seriously.

If you do, let meknow I will join you.
Well, here's the Rules, eh?

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1 The usual forum rules like no spamming, swearing, personal attacks, threats, trolling, flaming, illegal talk, etc apply.
Uh, ok. Not too hard.

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2 Post in the correct forum and don't post the same thing multiple times
No issues here. Pretty standard fare.

Quote:
3 Do not be purposely annoying
Um...What was that?

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4 Keep all disagreements private, via email or PM, this includes disagreements with staff and management
What about polite disagreements? Can't I have a differing POV?

Quote:
5 No using the boards to promote personal crusades or preoccupations. We're not here to help you pursue specific agendas or win any converts. Single-issue preaching is not allowed.
No issues here, really, I'm not there to convert; just pester interject where necessary

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6 Please post images as links
Um..ok. I don't think I've ever done that (unless the mean an IMG tag)

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GAH!! Fowl, that leaves you out.

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no prob here. I promise to only impresonate myself.

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No sock-puppets, gotcha

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Something tells me I'll be banned before that becomes an issue.

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Um, I think this might be what get me banned.

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No issues here. I don't produce anything that I can sell.

Overall, I think that we can live with these rules. Ok, I'll have to clean up my language a bit. You can't say f**k over there, unlike here. I can't call them needle-headed morons, so I'll leave that for over here.

FS, if I do it, I'll PM you the account so I don't get banned immeadately
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Old 21st December 2005, 04:59 PM   #37
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I wish you guys could really know how Jesus has shown Himself to me. I am just trying to share like the others here. Many of us have past experiences when we converse.
The biggest challenge is it seems most here want evidence of things believed but not seen. Isn't that what faith is?
I really am not just trying to preach at you, but God really does save people! When the Son sets you free you are free indeed! If I hadn't been shown that God's word is absolute truth I would not be telling others. And God's love for each and everyone of us is bigger than we know! It's only been a little over a year ago since I've had this supernatural experience and I could never deny God. I wish more people here had this faith!!
I am sorry that many here just aren't reseptive to what I am saying.
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Old 21st December 2005, 05:09 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
It was this post from KK that put me over the edge

KK, if you are reading this thread, I urge you to talk to other Christians in other congregations. Seek out other ministers and congregants. There are more mature forms of Christianity available to you.
Other Christians have told me I should not even bother to try to share my faith with people who don't believe God! I just think it's sad that athiests choose to deny God's word is true. If you believed the Bible...then you would not pick on Christians! Mans wisdom is nothing without God. You might be a very well educated human being? But I believe you are not made whole until you have Christ. Bigotted in whose opinion??
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Old 21st December 2005, 05:16 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by kurious_kathy View Post
Other Christians have told me I should not even bother to try to share my faith with people who don't believe God! I just think it's sad that athiests choose to deny God's word is true. If you believed the Bible...then you would not pick on Christians! Mans wisdom is nothing without God. You might be a very well educated human being? But I believe you are not made whole until you have Christ. Bigotted in whose opinion??


You seem to think we're attacking you for no reason. have you read the points here in which we've shown your offensive, mean-spirited, and bigoted statements wrapped up in your sugar coated preaching?

You started this, my dear.
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Old 21st December 2005, 05:28 PM   #40
kmortis
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Originally Posted by kurious_kathy View Post
Other Christians have told me I should not even bother to try to share my faith with people who don't believe God! I just think it's sad that athiests choose to deny God's word is true. If you believed the Bible...then you would not pick on Christians! Mans wisdom is nothing without God. You might be a very well educated human being? But I believe you are not made whole until you have Christ. Bigotted in whose opinion??
You're missing all the places where people have made mention that they are former (or in a couple of instantaces current) Christians? I was this || close to becoming a pentacostal minister. However, about then I realized what a scam it all is. Your arrogant postion that we just "haven't heard" is wrong. Plain and simple. I'd guess that over 95% of us here were raised Christian. A goodly number of us were also on the path to becoming ministers. We know the lines and lies. If you want to come here and put in a Christian perspective on the issues, then you are more than welcome, but as of yet, you have been a pi$$-poor witness to your faith. You have made some seriously mean-spiritied comments, you refuse to even consider anyone else's point of view, and you continue to dodge simple questions put before you.

It's not that we "don't know Jesus" which is making us not like you, it's that you come off as a stark raving b!tch. You could be the nicest person in real life, I don't really know, but from what I've read, I have no desire to find out.
Quote:
When 1 Christian goes to convert a group of Atheists, all they do is close the doors a little bit more for conversion. Everytime you bother them where there is no possibility of success just makes them less willing to listen in the future.
Sound familiar? I'd suggest that you listen. Instead of prostylitizing, why not discuss?

Oh, and tell the Firestream people that we're on our way.
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