Why do people still study traditional martial arts? (This is Skepticism, not Sports)

I post this from a skeptical point of view. Not a sports point of view.

Why do people still spend their time and money studying traditional martial arts? It has been shown over and over and over that the overwhelming majority of what is learned in a TMA school is not useful in real fighting. The spinning, the overly fancy kicking, the forms, all the wasted time and effort on uniforms and belts, the lack of any clinch or ground game at all, etc.

This is a skeptical issue with me. Where is the proof that a TMA is effective in real fighting? Why the denial of all the proof of the lack of effectiveness?

It is mind-boggling to me that TMA schools are even still in business. But then, churches, faith healers, homeopathy, and a lot of other woo are still in business, too. I guess people just don't know better. But it really irritates me to see so much money and time wasted, and so many people with a totally false sense of confidence.

I would like to point out...I walked that road. I'm approaching this from a very experienced and skeptical perspective, not a closed-mind perspective. I was a black belt and instructor in a TMA the night that I watched the very first UFC live on PPV, in 1993.

The world of fighting changed. Why hasn't the world of martial arts changed with it? Why do people still continue with TMA? It is the same as people continuing with homeopathy, despite all of the scientific advances in REAL medicine.

Note that I am not mistaking MMA (Mixed Martial Arts) for real no-holds-barred street fighting. What I am saying is that MMA has shown glaring, severe, obvious, blatant weaknesses in TMA. And the TMA practitioners have chosen to not address these weaknesses. Why not?

Because it's fun? Ballet is my sport of choice, and it has no use in a fight, is bound by all sorts of silly traditions, and it not necessarily optimal for physical fitness. But I like it.

What's UFC? Is that the no-holds-barred competition?

From my perspective in martial arts: All of those fancy techniques do work in the proper situation. Most martial artists who fight don't use those fancy moves unless the proper situation arises. Traditional karate philosophy says as a novice you learn one punch and one kick. As you progress you learn a whole variety of stuff but as you get good it all comes down to one punch, one kick. Part of the learning is art and the philosophy of traditional martial arts is to not use your skills in a fight if you can avoid it anyway. So if your goal is to beat someone up then there may be less reason to learn those moves but they will still be useful in the right situation. If you are learning the art and philosophy of martial arts then it is all a part of that.

Freakshow said:

Why do people still spend their time and money studying traditional martial arts? It has been shown over and over and over that the overwhelming majority of what is learned in a TMA school is not useful in real fighting.

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Najaf, 2004. Despite being outnumbered five to one, the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders executed a bayonet charge, killing 35 and suffering only three minor wounds.

But yes, I agree this was rather exceptional, being the first bayonet charge since the Falklands. I think the point of traditional martial arts is tradition, pure and simple.

Dogdoctor said:

From my perspective in martial arts: All of those fancy techniques do work in the proper situation. Most martial artists who fight don't use those fancy moves unless the proper situation arises. Traditional karate philosophy says as a novice you learn one punch and one kick. As you progress you learn a whole variety of stuff but as you get good it all comes down to one punch, one kick. Part of the learning is art and the philosophy of traditional martial arts is to not use your skills in a fight if you can avoid it anyway. So if your goal is to beat someone up then there may be less reason to learn those moves but they will still be useful in the right situation. If you are learning the art and philosophy of martial arts then it is all a part of that.

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That is a huge problem. When you train a certain way, over and over, you will react that way when the pressure is on. When the s*** hits the fan, you will revert to your training. And if you have spent 10 years training on jump spinning kicks, you are going to instinctively try and pull it off when the time comes. And that will be a very bad day for you.

I question your statement of such techniques being useful in the right situation. Even if they were, it is very likely that other techniques would be much more suited to the situation.

ChristineR said:

Because it's fun? Ballet is my sport of choice, and it has no use in a fight, is bound by all sorts of silly traditions, and it not necessarily optimal for physical fitness. But I like it.

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Which is okay, if people know that what they are doing is largely ineffective in a real fight, and they are doing it just as a hobby. Sort of, as you mention, the equivalent of going to dancing practice. However, I question how many TMA schools there may be that tell their students "95% of what we spend our time on here is pretty much useless in a real fight. But hey, we're just here to have fun, right?"

kalen said:

What's UFC? Is that the no-holds-barred competition?

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Not exactly no-holds-barred. But it is probably what you are thinking of.
http://www.ufc.tv
http://www.pridefc.com

Martial arts can be helpful in a fair 1 to 1 situation if you've practiced them for long enough and if there is no big physical difference between the fighters. Of course no street fight is fair, but then again you'd be a fool to believe that any martial art could make you invulnerable. There are some things that may help you in a street fight, especially if you don't have much experience in real life situations, eg you learn not to be too surprised when you are hit and to stay more calm than the average person during stresful situations.

Other than that, it's just sport. Many people don't believe the hype but just practice because it's a very nice sport. Actually it has many pluses that can't be found in other sports: You can train without any equipment. You can train both alone if you are moody or with others if you feel like it. You can even practice in a small room. The ranks provide a good motive and you can keep getting better for a long time in fluidity of movement, precision of hits etc. Just like dancing.

The fact that there are many people promoting the martial arts hype doesn't mean that the arts themselves are not good fun and exercise. If I like table tennis should I stop practicing just because someone may maintain that table tennis can reverse aging ?

Freakshow said:

However, I question how many TMA schools there may be that tell their students "95% of what we spend our time on here is pretty much useless in a real fight. But hey, we're just here to have fun, right?"

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There's hype everywhere. If you go to a dance school you'll be hearing all day and all night about how dancing is the best exercise in the world

I know nothing about this subject, but, do traditional martial arts schools necessarily claim that the training they provide will be useful in a bar brawl? Is that the primary purpose of most students who seek that training? After all, people still study fencing, despite the fact that no one duels with swords any more. I think the primary purpose there is to get some exercise, have a little fun, and appreciate the sport on an aesthetic level. It seems to me the same could be applied to martial arts.

El Greco said:

The fact that there are many people promoting the martial arts hype doesn't mean that the arts themselves are not good fun and exercise. If I like table tennis should I stop practicing just because someone may maintain that table tennis can reverse aging ?

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That's fine with me, as long as the students that are spending time and money to learn table tennis aren't under the false impression that it will reverse aging.

JamesDillon said:

I know nothing about this subject, but, do traditional martial arts schools necessarily claim that the training they provide will be useful in a bar brawl?

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Yes, many do.

Freakshow said:

That's fine with me, as long as the students that are spending time and money to learn table tennis aren't under the false impression that it will reverse aging.

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Actually many people who devote themselves completely to something are under some usually false impression. In the case of table tennis they may not think that it will reverse aging but they may think they'll become champions or win a gold Olympic medal

Umm. What kind of TMA had you studied previously? No, really, TRADITIONAL. Not Tae Kwon Do ...

My history:

I'm a 30+ year student of trad. Japanese budo. I'm also an old soldier and cop and was a bit of a brawler in my younger days.

The question is, I think, what are the MMA folks selling? It ain't too different from what some 'TMA' people are shilling either.

I have delved into MMA, etc, myself, over the years.

I'll tell you, as an old fighter (of the real world sort), who's been shot at and missed, stabbed and hit, sucker-punched, ambushed, ganged up on, and bum-rushed ... I've learned more about how to deal with Real World (tm) conflict from the Japanese koryu perspective than anything in the MMA or 'modern' martial arts world.

The problem comes in, as I see it, when people tell you you're learning to fight. And that blankets TMA, MMA and all permutations in between.

In approaching my martial traiing from a koryu perspective (and trust me, TKD and it's contemporaries are NOT TMA ... TKD is barely more than half a century old, Shotokan a bit more than a century, aikido in its current form about 75 years old ... I could go on, but the fact is, most of what people call 'Traditional' martial arts aren't old nor are they traditional. The old stuff was developed and refined on the battlefield, not in the ring or on a mat.

You've just touched a pet peeve of mine, BTW. It's quite ticklish, too!

The old-style MAs I study teaches things like timing, control of spacing, equanamity in the face of adversity (nothing will teach you to stand fast and not flinch like training with sharp steel!). It does not teach 'self defense' (a term I hate BTW). It does teach strategy, how to integrate tactical information into your strategy, how to deal with life or death situations, and with getting hit ...

MMA, while a fascinating and entertaining diversion in modern martial sports and sports-tainment, ain't about self defense or fighting either. It's about competing in a specific paradigm within a specifc set of rigidly codified rules.

I've trained with fighters of all stripes over the past three decades, and quite frankly, anybody who practices anything with a primary focus on competition of any sort who thinks they're 'fighting' is deluding themselves.

And yes, I've put my money where my mouth is. I've engaged in H2H on the street and on the battlefield. And I've dealt with a few 'challenges' in the dojo.

Nothing in the dojo -- ANY dojo, training hall, dojang, kwoon or gym -- prepares you for fighting. Nothing. Nothing in the ring, the octagon or on any kind of mat or artificial environment will prepare you for the real world of pain and fear of a real fight.

However, learning Japanese sword and stick arts and trad. jujutsu in a traditional context, with all the trappings and traditions, gave me a FAR better basis for survival than any of the competitive, eclectic systems I ever studied.

What good is TMA? Well, depends. What are you willing to learn?

As an aside, I'd suggest you do a bit more research about the various MA systems before you make blanket statements. Me, I've studied mosrly Trad. Japanese arts but I've also delved into Kali/Escrima, TKD (and a couple years of Tang Soo Doo which made modern TKD look like Mighty Mulching Power Mowers for adults), Hsing I and Pa Kua, Jeet Koo Do, etc etc.

I've also done military and police combatives as well as a few contemporary fighting systems based on 'Real World' scenarios and experience.

When I was a young man, and I'm nearing 50 these days, I'd fight anybody, anywhere, for fun. Got my ass handed to me a few times, but generally held my own.

I'd venture that your observations of what you CALL TMA are based on something that has little or no resemblance to 'real' TMA and is, instead, simply a modern martial sport or martial sports-tainment system.

Get thee to a REAL dojo, one teaching Shinto Muso Ryu or Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. Spend a few years hacking at kasso tekki and your dojo-mates (and getting over the lumps and bruises -- we tend not to use bags or dummies, but rather prefer to whack each other), and see what you can learn about fighting.

Now. All that said, I commend your skepticism. There's LOTS of WOO in the MA world, both TMA and MMA. And it must all be approached with a critical eye and a foundation of reason.

You want to learn to fight? Talk to Marc (Animal) Young or Geoff Thompson. They're smart, they've survived and they understand the difference in games and reality.

I could point you toward a few of my buds from the military or such, too, but I doubt they'd talk to a civilan about what they've done.

Freakshow said:

However, I question how many TMA schools there may be that tell their students "95% of what we spend our time on here is pretty much useless in a real fight. But hey, we're just here to have fun, right?"

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(raises hand). Guilty. You just desrcibed how I tell folks about what we do.

I am quick to tell folks who come to me for instruction that I DO NOT teach fighting. I could, but choose to teach in a TMA construct. It's far more valuable, to my way of seeing things (see my earlier post for more about who I am and what I've gotten myself into).

When a newcomer watches us train, I warn them "You better enjoy watching paint dry, because that's about as exciting as it gets."

That said, I number among my students some folks who have to deal with very real, very immediate situations. No complaints so far ...

I also have amongst my students a couple of old (old school) judoka (wanna talk about mat work? Fun guys!), soldiers of various stripes, some of the youngsters of whom have WAY more time in combat than me, and a broad assortment of others. I'm also working with a guy teaching modern military combatives to help him fill in the gaps that exist in the MMA-based curriculum -- gaps that are filled more than adequately by good, solid traditional concepts and practices.

The bottom line? If you enjoy it, it's presented with no pretensiotns, and you GET something valuable from it ... what's the beef?

Hell, speaking of dealing with reality ... I can't imagine anyone MORE inured to pain and adversity than a ballerina.

As I said, I think you're confusing modern martial sports with real traditional martial arts ...

Freakshow said:

That is a huge problem. When you train a certain way, over and over, you will react that way when the pressure is on. When the s*** hits the fan, you will revert to your training. And if you have spent 10 years training on jump spinning kicks, you are going to instinctively try and pull it off when the time comes. And that will be a very bad day for you.

I question your statement of such techniques being useful in the right situation. Even if they were, it is very likely that other techniques would be much more suited to the situation.

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There are two types of training in karate. One is for form "kata" and controlled sparring for form. Then there is sparring "kumite"where form is not so important. You train to fight in sparring and in doing so you will realize that once you jump in the air you have committed yourself and are vulnerable. So you learn not to do them unless there are certain vulnerable situations. However if you are fast and you don't jump high then you are less vulnerable. When the s**** hits the fan you will use your instincts which has little to do with your training other than if there is enough time you can use those skills you were training. I found that I learned all these blocks but in competition I dodged punches and caught kicks (not trained to do either of those things). Watching those who were much more trained than me, they did not use jumping or spinning kicks or punches unless their opponent provided them the opportunity to do one effectively. I am not so sure that there are better skills to use in those situations. Spinning moves are good to use when your opponent has committed to a straight forward attack or retreat. I used to spar with a guy who used a spinning back fist. It was totally useless against me since I was not a very aggressive fighter and so after a couple tries he never used it again but against a lot of more skilled and aggressive fighters it would work. I have seen spinning kicks work well when some one is backing up from a skirmish but you have to be fast and not telegraph what you are doing.

cgordon said:

Edited by FS, for brevity.

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Note what I said in my OP: "Note that I am not mistaking MMA (Mixed Martial Arts) for real no-holds-barred street fighting. What I am saying is that MMA has shown glaring, severe, obvious, blatant weaknesses in TMA."

cgordon said:

The bottom line? If you enjoy it, it's presented with no pretensiotns, and you GET something valuable from it ... what's the beef?

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If it is presented with no pretensions to being "real" fighting, and if the instructor is clear, as you have said, that what you are doing is not real fighting, then I have no "beef" with it at all.

I had a Judo coach once (a "coach", not a "sensei" or whatever; VERY non-traditional; we didn't even have a belt ranking system at the school) tell us that if you are REALLY serious about defending yourself, you must learn how to use the proper tools, and that includes getting a handgun and learning proper defensive handgun use. He was a really cool guy.

Dogdoctor said:

There are two types of training in karate. One is for form "kata" and controlled sparring for form. Then there is sparring "kumite"where form is not so important. You train to fight in sparring and in doing so you will realize that once you jump in the air you have committed yourself and are vulnerable. So you learn not to do them unless there are certain vulnerable situations. However if you are fast and you don't jump high then you are less vulnerable. When the s**** hits the fan you will use your instincts which has little to do with your training other than if there is enough time you can use those skills you were training. I found that I learned all these blocks but in competition I dodged punches and caught kicks (not trained to do either of those things). Watching those who were much more trained than me, they did not use jumping or spinning kicks or punches unless their opponent provided them the opportunity to do one effectively. I am not so sure that there are better skills to use in those situations. Spinning moves are good to use when your opponent has committed to a straight forward attack or retreat. I used to spar with a guy who used a spinning back fist. It was totally useless against me since I was not a very aggressive fighter and so after a couple tries he never used it again but against a lot of more skilled and aggressive fighters it would work. I have seen spinning kicks work well when some one is backing up from a skirmish but you have to be fast and not telegraph what you are doing.

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We are getting a bit off topic here, and are getting too deep into the particulars of specific technique.

I would however, advise that if you are interested in unarmed combat, that you add to your training work that includes the clinch, the takedown, defending the takedown, fighting on the ground, and how to return to standing once on the ground. I am not saying "If you get into a fight, you want to take the guy to the ground!" There are many cases where that is a stupid thing to do. What I am saying is that "If you don't know how to avoid being taken down to the ground, or how to fight once somone has forced you there, you could find yourself in big trouble someday. The MMA world has shown this. Why hasn't the TMA world picked up on this lesson?"