Psychics and Missing People

Kelly

Philosopher
K
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
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Location
Renton, WA
Hello all,

I am the mother of a missing person and the founder of a nonprofit which assists families of the missing in the US. In my position(s), it seems like I am a magnet for all sorts of loonies claiming they want to help either solve my son's case, or solve cases of the families we serve. Frankly, I tire of it all.

The last few that came to me with their offers were told by me (in as nice of a way as I could) that when they could pass Randi's test to come back. Of course, I didn't hear anything back from them in response.

Some of the "believers" try to play on guilt in that they say people in my position should try any (legal) means possible to find their missing loved one. It is subtlely implied that if I am not willing to subject myself to this, then I must not really care about finding my son. It is a chance I should always take, I am told.

A relative paid one of these charlatans to do a "reading" with me, despite my objections. I agreed, but said I would never do it again. She paid the woman the "discounted" fee of $50, which was to include a tape of the entire ordeal. (We never did get the tape.) At that time, I had already been reading about their methods, and I refused to give her any info and play into her game. She had the audacity to then convince my mother that I "ruined" the reading because of my attitude. (I was polite to the woman. I just did not react to her probes.) As typical, when she claimed to be speaking to my son's spirit, she could not get the "spirit" to answer a simple question about one of his likes, which I then posed. After that, she started to get annoyed with me.

I have plenty of stories about these people and my own experiences with them, plus experiences of other family members of the missing. I also know behind the scenes stories about Sylvia Browne and her scamming. And, as you might expect, none of these person's case have been solved by these people.

What I want to be able to accomplish by posting here, is to have a very complete collection of links debunking the advantage takers when it comes to missing person's cases. I do have a few, such as the Carla Baron exposee and several others which are linked to this site.

Another thing which would be helpful and would probably require someone with a pyschiatry background, is to find a way to help these families who feel pressured to use psychics, to not feel guilty about refusing these offers.

And finally, I would love to find someone who is fairly well known in the debunking area, especially when it comes to missing person's cases, to do an interview for the blog I write.

Thank you.

Kelly Jolkowski, Mother of Missing Jason Jolkowski
President and Founder,
Project Jason
 
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I don't know if you've visited the Skeptic's Dictionary, but I find it's a good place to start. Not only is there a ton of information (that I will get through someday), but they list further resources along with cites.

Here's their entry on psychic detectives: http://skepdic.com/psychdet.html

The Skeptic's Society has a letter to ABC news "Exposing the Errors of
ABC’s Primetime Thursday" http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/archives/2004/04-05-04.html

Here's a CSICOP article: http://www.csicop.org/si/2005-07/i-files.html

A video: http://www.csicop.org/articles/psychic-detectives/index.html

Another two articles: http://www.csicop.org/specialarticles/psychic-sleuthing.html & http://www.csicop.org/specialarticles/police-psychics.html

I can run a few database searches too, if you'd like, but they won't provide links. At best, I'd probably just be doing some research for you, but if you'd like, let me know.

And thank you.
 
Thank you.

Yes, I am quite sure I have visited the Skeptic's Dictionary a few times. Perhaps that's where I learned about some of the methodology.

I would greatly appreciate any research that can be done with locating stories where these people were debunked in missing person's cases. I work full time and run the org full time, so I can use the help.

I will be writing a series about this on my blog in the future which will incorporate this info along with family stories, and hopefully, some commentary from experts.

I have seen far too many families hurt by this. One woman I know literally almost drove herself crazy following every "lead" on the weekends, traveling hundreds of milies for nothing. Desperation makes a person lose sight of reality. The desire to end what I call the waking nightmare, the "not knowing" takes people where they normally may not have gone. But then again, nothing is normal when you live this life.

Thanks,
Kelly
 
That's horrible news, Kelly. I wish you all the best that science and the police can provide, and I hope your family doesn't continue to be harassed by phony psychics.

Please keep us posted on the investigation.
 
Welcome to the forum, Kelly.

It seems to me that you are the best source for the kind of shenanigans these "psychic detectives" pull. Perhaps you could post a collection of the kind of solicitations you get from them.

After all, these psychics claim it is the families who come to them, not vice versa. And they all like to claim they are working on missing persons cases. Anything you could do here to bring the real truth to light would be great.

Do you remember the Elizabeth Smart case? Well, there was a remote viewer organization that stuck their nose in the case, and within days of her disappearance declared her dead. And then they posted all kinds of remote viewer drawings on their site which depicted where she had been buried. They even made strong insinuations of who might be guilty of her death. You can imagine their embarassment when Elizabeth turned up alive.

Well, some of us here at JREF managed to download all of their public proclamations, photos and drawings, and everything else they published about the Smart case right before they went into damage control mode and removed all that material from their web site. Subsequently, Claus Larsen wrote an article about the whole debacle on his Skeptic Report web site, which you can read by clicking here.

Also, Kelly, once a year the James Randi Educational Foundation has what is called The Amazing Meeting. At these conferences, hundreds of people attend to listen to a few days worth of lectures and presentations by skeptics from various walks of life. It sounds to me like your experience with psychic detectives might be a terrific showcase presentation.

If it isn't too much to ask, would you mind telling us of the circumstances of your son's disappearance and what has developed in the case?

edited to add: Never mind. I see Darat posted a link to your site.
 
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KellyJ said:
Thank you.

Yes, I am quite sure I have visited the Skeptic's Dictionary a few times. Perhaps that's where I learned about some of the methodology.

I would greatly appreciate any research that can be done with locating stories where these people were debunked in missing person's cases. I work full time and run the org full time, so I can use the help.

I will be writing a series about this on my blog in the future which will incorporate this info along with family stories, and hopefully, some commentary from experts.

I have seen far too many families hurt by this. One woman I know literally almost drove herself crazy following every "lead" on the weekends, traveling hundreds of milies for nothing. Desperation makes a person lose sight of reality. The desire to end what I call the waking nightmare, the "not knowing" takes people where they normally may not have gone. But then again, nothing is normal when you live this life.

Thanks,
Kelly
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I'll try and get back to you tomorrow then or later tonight. They added a database of science journals this semester so I'm expecting the best results to come from that and not necessarily from news reports.
 
As a person close to a missing person case that's also gone unsolved I can relate, however I wasn't immediate family so I was not the one the psychics came to visit. My uncle would tell the psychics if they can go out and find her then by all means, go ahead, just don't expect to get any money for it. He would politely tell them he didn't believe psychics had any ability so if they wanted to prove him wrong, go ahead. If money or reward was mentioned he would kindly direct them to ask all future questions to the detective in charge of the investigation.

I think you'll find many, many supporters here, if you need anything, just ask.
 
KellyJ said:
My own mother paid one of these charlatans to do a "reading" with me, despite my objections. I agreed, but said I would never do it again. She paid the woman the "discounted" fee of $50, which was to include a tape of the entire ordeal. (We never did get the tape.)
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I'm shocked that a psychic would have the audacity to charge money for their "service" in helping find a missing child. This makes me angry. I don’t want to say anymore.

LLH
 
I can think of a missing persons case involving Sylvia Browne. About ten years ago, she was on the Montel Williams show, talking about missing persons cases. One case involved that bass player from Iron Butterfly, who had gone missing a year or so earlier. Anyway, Sylvia claimed she saw him being kidnapped and taken aboard a boat. She also said he was probably dead,which seemed very cruel of her to say. A couple of years later, his remains were found:

http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,1,4843,00.html

I don't recall any news stories about Sylvia Browne being wrong about this case, but maybe James Randi has better documentation in his files.
 
LordoftheLeftHand said:
I'm shocked that a psychic would have the audacity to charge money for their "service" in helping find a missing child. This makes me angry. I don’t want to say anymore.

LLH
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A private detective would charge money to look for a missing child.
 
Thank you for the warm welcome. I will try to respond to the various inquiries.

I have a separate website for my son's case, but I cannot post links yet. It's a very baffling case which has eluded veteran LE and a decent pro-bono PI. A websearch on Jason Jolkowski should offer this site as 1st on the list. A websearch on my name should find the blog and numerous other stories.

I know quite a few families who went on Montel for the SB segments. She was never right once that we know of. The link for the story posted above about her does not appear to work.

LeCynthia, PM me and tell me about your missing family member.

Thanks to LostAngeles for the research and help.

LukeT: I have never approached a psychic, ever. They have all come to me or come to people who know me. I agree that I would be a good resource for sharing these stories. I have never put them on "pen and paper" but will be working on this in the next few weeks for the blog series. It was always too painful at the time, but I know it is important to help expose these people.

I heard about the Smart case and the group who made the "fatal" error. I may have even read the report about it at one point.

I would probably not be able to attend the Amazing Meeting. I'm sure it is rather enlightening on many fronts. We're a very small org and can only afford 1-2 annual trips which are educational in nature in respect to our mission statement. On a personal level, I'm a check-to-check working stiff who could not afford to pay for such a trip on my own.

Yes, I have many stories about these people. I even tried to pretend to be a gullible person in order to get some "dirt" on one of them, but in the end both LE and the FBI told me that no law was broken unless I had given them money and they had not provided the promised service. I didn't have 25K in between the couch cushions or anywhere else, so that one ended.

The last one that came to me was from a person who said they were a "dowser" but yet somehow they could "see" that a missing woman (a case we work) was being held captive in a shed somewhere. Mind you, this woman has been missing since 1986!

The "fun" never ends it seems. These people come out of the woodwork when there is a missing person.

Kelly
 
KellyJ, I'm very very sorry for your situation and wish you only the best.

You come across as the perfect person to take this challenge on.

And regarding being unable to afford the TAM trip, I think that can be taken care of.

I personally have not been able to make the meetings due to scheduling issues, but every year there is an "Scholarship Fund" to help out worthy people who would attend but cannot because of finances. This year it paid the expenses of quite a few.

Mark it on your schedule and keep in touch. The worst case is you end up not going; the likely case is that you do. And if you feel like it, a presentation would not be amiss.

Edited to add: I take it you are in touch with the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children? They have a statement on psychics never solving a missing child case. They have other resources, too, which you may be interested in. Google NCMEC. Though I'm sure you already know this.
 
I like this statement from the Klaas Kids Foundation - it reads as though Mark Klaas wrote it. He is a high-profile person and more than skeptical, as he was very angry about how one skeptic tried to use his daughter's murder for her own fame, so I wonder if he would give an interview to you sometime? He was featured on a Penn&Teller episode about ESP, also, and his part is the featured clip on the web page for that episode.

I wish you all the best and I really would like to applaud your efforts in spreading some debunking in this area.
 
Marc Klaas...good find. I have never met him personally, but I am friends with his right hand man. Our orgs work together now and then. I am quite sure he would participate. I did not remember that he took this stance.

I will have to look at the meeting info and place and see if I could fit it in. How does a person go about getting this scholarship?

Thanks to all,
Kelly
 
CurtC said:
I clicked this link, thinking it sounded interesting. Imagine my surprise when I saw that it's my own letter I wrote to ABC!
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No way! Rock on!

Kelly, right now, I'm not terribly impressed with the results from this new database. I do have a pdf I got from it with an article about Psychic Detectives (the show) from Skeptic. So far, most of my results are from that and Skeptical Inquirer. I'd like to be able to offer you something a bit more... mainstream, I guess is the word. That way, when people read your post they don't dismiss it out of hand because, "Oh well, they're those bitter skeptics." or whatever.

I should have my Lexis-Nexis access back since the semester's started up again, I'll try and hit there tomorrow. If you'd like the cites for the articles for now, though (I'm not sure on the copyright issues here), let me know.
 
That is neat, Curt.

No rush on the research, LA. I probably won't start my series for several weeks yet.

I'll take the sites, yes.

I think no matter how I write my series, there will be plenty of people who take offense to it. ("Oh my precious Sylvia" types)
 
I certainly hope that if I ever go missing, I don't have to rely on a psychic's guess to rescue me. As far as I know, not a single person has ever been found because of a so-called psychic. When will people learn?
I applaud your standing up for what's right during this difficult time, and I truelly do hope you find your missing person alive and well. It is criminal, in my opinion, the way these scammers feed off your pain and profit from (and add to!) your emotional distraught. That is not something anybody needs.
Best wishes to you.
 
Kelly, I am very sorry that you find yourself in such an awful situation and I hope good news comes for you and your family. I think the work you are proposing to pursue with these fraudulant leeches is very important & I wish you every good luck with it.

It would be great if you could attend a TAM - I am sure that is just what the scholarships are for & people would love to hear you.

Very best wishes
 
tsg said:
A private detective might be able to find a missing child.
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I'm just saying it isn't out of line for someone who performs a "service" to charge money for it. All that is out of line is promising a service that is useless, and that is plenty enough to warrant scorn.

And a psychic who is sought out by a family to search for a missing loved one is marginally better than a psychic who hears of a missing person and then seeks out the family and offers her services. The paranormal equivalent of an "ambulance chaser." Scummiest of the scum.

And I am happy to hear the PI on KellyJ's son's case is working pro bono. Good man! Or woman, whatever the case may be.
 
KellyJ said:
LukeT: I have never approached a psychic, ever. They have all come to me or come to people who know me. I agree that I would be a good resource for sharing these stories. I have never put them on "pen and paper" but will be working on this in the next few weeks for the blog series. It was always too painful at the time, but I know it is important to help expose these people.
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Yes, it is very important, and you are in a better position to do it than we are. Psychics deflect criticisms by skeptics by claiming they (the psychics) are caring and loving human beings helping others. You are perfectly situated to show that their "help" is not only unwanted, but also that they are nothing more than exploiters of pain and suffering who impose themselves on victims unsolicited when their sales resistance is at its lowest and their desperation highest.
 
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Luke T. said:
I'm just saying it isn't out of line for someone who performs a "service" to charge money for it. All that is out of line is promising a service that is useless, and that is plenty enough to warrant scorn.
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That's entirely the point. They aren't providing a service, certainly not one worth paying for. I thought it was pretty evident that's what LLH meant.
 
tsg said:
That's entirely the point. They aren't providing a service, certainly not one worth paying for. I thought it was pretty evident that's what LLH meant.
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Reading back over LLH's comment with a different perspective, I see you are right.

I concluded a long time ago that psychics have no shame and that it went without saying. So from that perspective I thought LLH was saying that what was wrong was to charge victims money for anything.

I was wrong for thinking the shamelessness of psychics goes without saying. It needs to be said. Over and over and over.
 
Kelly,
I know you mentioned the Carla Baron report, but I'm not sure if you have talked to the folks who wrote it.

(For those of you who haven't read the Independent Investigations Group's devastating report on Carla Baron, you can read it here: http://www.iigwest.com/carla_report.html )

I'm a new member of the IIG, but I wasn't around when they did the Baron report. However, you should get in touch with them. To contact the IIG:
(323) 666-9797, ext. 159 or info@iigwest.com

I do hope you find you son one day. I can't imagine the pain you're experiencing.

And, like others said, mark your calendar for the next TAM (well, as soon as the dates are announced, anyway.) You need to be there, and the members of this board will make sure that someone like you will have anything you can't afford fully covered.
 
Hi, Kelly J, and warmest welcome. You've started the best and most productive thread in recent memory. Let's keep it going.

To everyone: I was so pleased to discover Mark Klaas' statement on psychic detectives some time ago. And thank you, Lost Angeles, for the list of links including the one to the skeptic dictionary which I repeat here: http://skepdic.com/psychdet.html.

Am I dreaming it (well, it would be a nightmare, actually) that John Walsh of America's Most Wanted actually did a show on the psychic detectives? Someone tell me I'm wrong.
 
Mariah said:
Am I dreaming it (well, it would be a nightmare, actually) that John Walsh of America's Most Wanted actually did a show on the psychic detectives? Someone tell me I'm wrong.
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Sorry...

Thursday January 1, 2003
RERUN
PSYCHIC PHENOMENA: AN INSIDE LOOK
Today, we spend a fascinating hour with Dougall Fraser – a 26-year-old clairvoyant who has been a professional psychic for years. Dougall has become recognized as one of the country’s top psychics, assisting people with the loss of loved ones, relationships, prosperity, self-help, and spiritual development. During the hour, Dougall helps our guests find answers, hope, and in some cases, closure in their lives. First, Dougall tells us a little about himself and how he realized at a young age that he had a special “ability.” He then lets our viewers in on some of his celebrity predictions – who’ll stay together, who’ll break up, and who’s going to run for office. He may even have a prediction or two for you! Next, Dougall focuses on the two most popular reasons people come to see him – love and money. Dougall “reads” and advises two guests regarding their love life – Catherine & Kenya. Catherine is here because she is in a serious relationship right now and wonders if her man is “the one,” and Kenya is here because she is searching for the man of her dreams! We also have two guests that Dougall reads and advises regarding money issues – Carly & Rich. Carly is here because she’s been unemployed for several months and wants to know what she’s doing wrong. She says she is curious about the future of her career. Rich is a young actor who has reached a crossroads and is contemplating moving across the country to pursue his passion. He says he wants a hint at whether or not moving will help his career. Our hope is that Dougall delivers each of our guests some news and helpful hints that encourages them to look forward to their future. As you know, psychic shops are on just about every corner here in New York, and the majority of them are fakes. Dougall lets us in on some of these “so-called” psychics’ most commonly used ploys and tactics…and also provides tips on how to stay away from the frauds and find someone who’s legit. We actually went “undercover” before the show and had readings done at two local psychics. We find out just how accurate Dougall is and see just what happened when we sent our “spy cam” into these establishments. Later in the show, Dougall “reads” the audience and also takes specific questions from audience members looking for guidance. Dougall is truly more than the average “psychic” in that he combines his clairvoyant skills with life coaching – so he doesn’t just entertain and make predictions, he helps guide people in taking the right steps to get the results they’re looking for in life. Plus, Jennifer Stockburger, an Automotive Test Engineer for Consumer Reports, shares important tips and information on car seat safety in this week’s Keeping Families Safe segment.
Episode #102403.
A 26-year-old psychic attempts to help people find answers.
Director(s): Andy Barsh . Producer(s): Alexandra Jewett , George Davilas , Jamie Kotkin-Hammer , Michael Newport .
Original Airdate: October 24, 2003.
Clairvoyance: A True Sixth Sense
Clairvoyant Dougall Fraser answers audience questions.
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John Walsh TV Listings: December 29 - January 2 2003


That same day, the John Walsh Show taped a program on "Psychic Phenomena: An Inside Look," to air on October 24. Both Noreen Renier and Gary Posner were contacted for possible appearances (just imagine the drama of that confrontation!), as was CSICOP's Joe Nickell (in the event Gary couldn’t make it). However, to avoid the airfares to New York City, the show decided instead, as its website announced that week, to "spend a fascinating hour with Dougall Fraser --— a 26-year-old clairvoyant . . . one of the country’s top psychics. . . . Dougall helps our guests find answers, hope, and in some cases, closure in their lives."

John Walsh, of all people, ought to know better. After all, if "psychic" power was genuine, his other TV program, America’s Most Wanted, would be unnecessary -- the nation's legion of "psychic detectives" could take care of locating the fugitives, including the murderer (still unidentified) of his own son. As Posner told Walsh's producer, rather than "budgetary" concerns, he suspects that they cynically opted to titillate rather than "“educate your viewers about the true nature of 'psychic' [phenomena]."
Click to expand...

http://www.tampabayskeptics.org/v16n3rpt.html
 
John Walsh and Psychics: Thanks, Luke T. That's what I was afraid of. That's too, too bad.
 
That's too bad about John Walsh. He's a big enough name without needing to jump onto the psychic bandwagon.

Misc notes: THanks again for the warm welcome, kindness, and compassion extended.

Our pro bono "disappeared" on us. He did try hard for a long time, for which we are most grateful, but like LE, he couldn't figure it out, so things lie dormant for the most part.

PI's in some cases are close to the same level as the psychics. Many of them charge a very hefty charge and give no results. The majority of the families we assist could not even begin to afford one. They're stuck with nothing. IN adult cases, often times little investigation is done by LE. That could be a part of why they get desperate and turn to psychics.

Does anyone know how many people in general believe that psychics are the real thing?

I ran into the IIG folks online some time back, Brian specifically. He asked me to write about my experiences, but at that time, I wasn't ready.

Yes, I would be interested in the TAM, thank you. I see that it just took place. Is it always at that time of year in Vegas?

Kelly
 
Benjamin Radford presented on psychic detectives at TAM4, including statistics on psychic success. I remember that only one psychic actually found a victim, by searching near where the police were searching. Of course, even the slightest correlation (near trees!) will be claimed as a success.
 
Kelly, please accept my sincerest condolences on the mysterious disappearance of your son.

I will hope on your behalf...

I applaud you for warning people about the futility of investing their hopes and money in psychic detectives ... people who cannot help.

Every fiber of my being knows why desperate people turn to psychic help, which is no help at all. I understand it. I don't agree with it, but I do know how the desperation of not knowing can motivate a person to reach out to whatever crumb of help might be offered.

Keep informing people, educating them. It's a worthy endeavor.


Gayle
 
I'm glad to see you post here, Kelly, because so much of what we do here on the JREF Forum is just talk, even though it is worthwhile talk when we are educating and encouraging each other. Your involvement opens up ways to actually DO something about all this. I'm always frustrated that we don't DO more.
 
Thank you all.

In relation to my initial inquiry, does anyone have any ideas for these 2 action items:

"Another thing which would be helpful and would probably require someone with a pyschiatry background, is to find a way to help these families who feel pressured to use psychics, to not feel guilty about refusing these offers.

And finally, I would love to find someone who is fairly well known in the debunking area, especially when it comes to missing person's cases, to do an interview for the blog I write."

Takers? Someone always knows someone else.....

As to the physciatrist person, I would like some quotes on how persons in these situations, when faced with the helplessness that comes when the case gets cold, can avoid the guilt/desperation that prompts them to seek out psychics.

Kelly
 
Incredible!

I just get a pm. I was hoping it was the woman with the missing relative, but no, it was another one of THEM. Apparantly, they did not read this thread!

"hi kellyj i was reading your posts so i checked out your sight and i wanted to let you know your a great person and would like to ask you if maybe i can try and help out i figure things out sometimes it just comes to me maybe you could send me things with pictures and any information with the cases or pictures of items also like personal belongings

while i was reading about a missing child i knew right away what prob happend and as i read i was right"

I said:
"I don't think you read my post. Read it again. If you think you have "powers" then report what you know to law enforecement."

Let me make this clear: Do NOT write to me or PM me with your claims and offers. If you think you know what happened to a missing person, contact the LE involved in their case. They can make the decision as to the validity of your claim and use resources to check it if that is their desire.

I do not and will not refer "psychics" to the families we assist, nor act as a go-between to provide information.

And furthermore, why don't we see your application submitted for the Million Dollar Challenge?

To the rest of the readers: This is just another example of my undesired magnetism for these types. I was hoping I would be exempt here. I am trying to find a little humor in that.

Kelly
 
Kelly,

If you feel this amounts to harrassment, report the member to the moderators.
 
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