Bill Nelson Qxci SCIO

Plastictowel · 5th April 2006, 07:16 PM

My dad and his friend are interested in this. His friend swears that it has done wonders for him and his son, and is now trying to talk my Dad into it.
I showed my Dad randis commentary, and this was his friends argument to out debate Randi.
Let me know if you guys agree, disagree, or any assistance is appreciated. I just want to make sure what my Dad is doing is OKAY.
Also note in the E-mail a mention of Sherry. Sherry Rogers(or Rodgers cant remember) was a College Sweetheart of my Dads, who has gone on to write books such as Detoxify or Die, and other such things. My dad has a large respect for this woman.
Here is Sam (My dads friends reply)

Cary,

I have read the articles from people like this who make statements like "strains the imagination" (therefore it must not work because I can understand it) and then after reading about the machine asks the question "Can anyone translate this please?" He makes his assumptions based on what he does not understand, and not on actual fact or even putting the machine to a test. Then he makes the statement - One intellectual alarm bell on his website rang loudly regarding this statement: "Rather than to deal with the politics of health in the US and the FDA, Bill Nelson moved to Budapest in 1993."

You and I both know how the FDA and pharmaceutical companies poopoo any technology that has the potential of diminishing their profits (Sherry Rogers knows that to) Bill Nelson was not going to waste his time fighting that uphill battle.

I have been treated with the machine, so has my son. You can not fool the machine - it takes all of the guess work out of "what is the cause of the symptoms". Cary it works, and it can tell you literally everything about your body and what to do about any imbalances.

Maybe before we present this to Sherry, you could come here and see first hand, with a live demo, with you hooked up and asking questions while the machine tells you everything about you and then tell you what you can do to improve your health an quality of life. (Sun Country fly's here from Jacksonville for $99)

In reading Sherry's books and news letters, this machine does exactly what she does to determine what toxins are causing problems and what enzymes, minerals and vitamin deficiencies you have. The difference is you don't have to wait two weeks for the results.

I am convinced if you put the machine to the test you will be amazed and impressed. I also fell you will be enthusiastic to put this technology before Sherry for her own evaluation after you put it to the test.

Let me know what you want to do.

Sincerely,
Sam

LTC8K6 · 5th April 2006, 07:53 PM

Run away!

This is such an obvious scam.

The whole thing is idiotic even at first glance.

Anyone who falls for this is either selling it as part of the MLM scam, or they are so far out there it's useless to try to reason with them.

LTC8K6 · 5th April 2006, 07:59 PM

http://www.thequantumalliance.com/

http://www.thequantumalliance.com/pricing_info.htm

http://www.thequantumalliance.com/fee_structure.htm

LTC8K6 · 5th April 2006, 08:04 PM

http://www.thequantumalliance.com/features.htm

Trinary....it's gotta be better than binary....

Plastictowel · 5th April 2006, 08:18 PM

Any well tested, factual including, articles or research on this proving to be a sham???

Jimbo07 · 5th April 2006, 08:33 PM

What is an Xrroid?

casebro · 5th April 2006, 08:40 PM

Gosh! It uses Quantum Physics! I never would have guessed. And Xrroid- is that like 'after the lazer hemoroid surgery, I was Xroid'? Or is it past tense of X-ray- "The Emugency doctor had Xroid my broked arm" ? And it uses 'vibrations'. It seems to do everything.

I wonder... does it do alchemy? Then, if I had one, I could use it to transmorgrify my testicles into brass balls, and I could sell those machines too.

LTC8K6 · 5th April 2006, 08:41 PM

I would think the site alone is proof enough.

Why bother to waste time and money to test such idiocy?

Shouldn't the burden be on the mfg/seller to show that it does anything at all?

LTC8K6 · 5th April 2006, 08:43 PM

http://www.thequantumalliance.com/functions.htm

casebro · 5th April 2006, 08:50 PM

http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...ts/xrroid.html

Arkan_Wolfshade · 5th April 2006, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by Plastictowel

...
Cary,

I have read the articles from people like this who make statements like "strains the imagination" (therefore it must not work because I can understand it) and then after reading about the machine asks the question "Can anyone translate this please?" He makes his assumptions based on what he does not understand, and not on actual fact or even putting the machine to a test.

Strawman

Quote:

Then he makes the statement - One intellectual alarm bell on his website rang loudly regarding this statement: "Rather than to deal with the politics of health in the US and the FDA, Bill Nelson moved to Budapest in 1993."

You and I both know how the FDA and pharmaceutical companies poopoo any technology that has the potential of diminishing their profits (Sherry Rogers knows that to) Bill Nelson was not going to waste his time fighting that uphill battle.

So, he was either (a) trying to avoid federal regulation set up to protect consumers or (b) trying to avoid a conspiratorial beaucracy (cripes I can't even spell that close enough to have m-w give me the right spelling *sigh*) so he could get his miracle product to the people that need it.

Quote:

I have been treated with the machine, so has my son. You can not fool the machine - it takes all of the guess work out of "what is the cause of the symptoms". Cary it works, and it can tell you literally everything about your body and what to do about any imbalances.

Anecdote. Also, "imbalances" earns double-plus woo points.

Quote:

Maybe before we present this to Sherry, you could come here and see first hand, with a live demo, with you hooked up and asking questions while the machine tells you everything about you and then tell you what you can do to improve your health an quality of life. (Sun Country fly's here from Jacksonville for $99)

"Once you've blown a hundred bucks getting here, I know you'll be more receptive because you'll want it to work so that $100 isn't just out the window."

Quote:

In reading Sherry's books and news letters, this machine does exactly what she does to determine what toxins are causing problems and what enzymes, minerals and vitamin deficiencies you have. The difference is you don't have to wait two weeks for the results.

It's way better than any lab equipment out there. Yet, pharm companies aren't interested in it. Oh yeah, that's because it'll cut into their profits.

Quote:

I am convinced if you put the machine to the test you will be amazed and impressed. I also fell you will be enthusiastic to put this technology before Sherry for her own evaluation after you put it to the test.

Let me know what you want to do.

Sincerely,
Sam

"blah blah blah"

Plastictowel · 6th April 2006, 06:51 AM

I have to say I'm pretty disapointed by these replies guys. My dad is a 60+ year old man. Simply saying to him a series of "smart a$$" comments like I seem to get as my thorough "explanations" on the quackery of the machine, just doesn't cut it. I can't just say OMG IMBALANCES, HAHA, Yeah right. I mean come on guys...and the poster who broke down the letter, thank you..I guess. But that literally contributed nothing but a blatant one sided, unscientific, smart a$$ argument over the faults of the machine.
And Sam has been my Dads friend for over 20 years. Saying something like he wants my Dad to pay $99 so it's worth it...isn't the case. The man always has my Dads BEST interest in mind. Granted he could be wrong here, but don't take this as some guy try to Con my Dad. Take it as someone whose been Conned, and now is passing the word the wrong way.

Than again hell maybe it doe work, I've seen nothing to really DISPROVE it. Sure that post has lots of good information regarding Bill Nelson himself being a fake, but he isn't the issue. The machine is.

Gr8wight · 6th April 2006, 07:05 AM

Originally Posted by Plastictowel

I have to say I'm pretty disapointed by these replies guys. My dad is a 60+ year old man. Simply saying to him a series of "smart a$$" comments like I seem to get as my thorough "explanations" on the quackery of the machine, just doesn't cut it. I can't just say OMG IMBALANCES, HAHA, Yeah right. I mean come on guys...and the poster who broke down the letter, thank you..I guess. But that literally contributed nothing but a blatant one sided, unscientific, smart a$$ argument over the faults of the machine.
And Sam has been my Dads friend for over 20 years. Saying something like he wants my Dad to pay $99 so it's worth it...isn't the case. The man always has my Dads BEST interest in mind. Granted he could be wrong here, but don't take this as some guy try to Con my Dad. Take it as someone whose been Conned, and now is passing the word the wrong way.

Than again hell maybe it doe work, I've seen nothing to really DISPROVE it. Sure that post has lots of good information regarding Bill Nelson himself being a fake, but he isn't the issue. The machine is.

Originally Posted by casebro

http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...ts/xrroid.html

Plastictowel, read casebro's link. There is a ton of information there. My favourite bit:

Quote:

The device fires low levels of current into the patient and then in a method similar to radar, reads the bounced signals and transfers them to a database. The data base consists of several thousand diagnostic categories from several different medical disciplines including homeopathy, acupuncture, chiropractic, traditional medical, as well as astrology, prayer wells, and other mystical data. Upon studying the software I also found pornographic images embedded in it, for what reason I was unable to determine.

No, wait, this one:

Quote:

I tested other members of my staff and discovered similar misdiagnosis including one of the male doctors who was diagnosed a being both pregnant and suffering from testicular cancer.

More seriously:

Quote:

This device must be classified as dangerous. The danger it presents is two-fold: (1) it makes misleading and inconsistent diagnosis; and (2) the firing of microcurrent into an individual can be harmful

Your dad needs to read this website. The information about Nelson and his various phony degrees is important because it establishes his reputation as a known scam artist. This machine is not only not going to help your father, it is possible that it could actually do him harm.

Plastictowel · 6th April 2006, 07:14 AM

I did make sure to pass that link on to him.
It's just going to be a B1tch of a time trying to convince him not to do this. As Sam like I said is a good man, with good intentions, that has always helped my Dad.

I only recently was fully able to get my dad off the John of God fix.

Hellbound · 6th April 2006, 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by Plastictowel

Than again hell maybe it doe work, I've seen nothing to really DISPROVE it.

And this is the problem. This is approaching the problem from the wrong direction. What tests have been done to prove it is the first question that should be asked, not what tests disprove it. Theorectically, I could claim that broccolli cures cancer. The burden of proof rests on me to show the claim is true, not on someone else to disprove it.

Of course, I understand that for many, they don't view it this way. Testimonials are often viewed as evidence, when they are a specifically selected set of subjective evaluations, rather than anything approaching proof. Additionally, there are so many doubtful "medical" products out there, that not all of them are studied scientifically, especially when their proposed methods of action are obviously untrue. Scientists tend to focus their efforts into research that shows promise...there's not much grant money to be had (or scientific status/awards/etc) in disproving something that the vast majority of the field regards as "not true enough to need disproving".

Arkan_Wolfshade · 6th April 2006, 07:43 AM

http://www.healthwatcher.net/quacker...XCI/index.html
http://tinyurl.com/48gmn
http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...ts/xrroid.html
http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/qxci.htm
http://curezone.com/forums/m.asp?f=225&i=30
http://jeromekahn123.tripod.com/spiritualism/id6.html
http://groups.google.com/group/uk.pe...&output=gplain
http://www.randi.org/jr/061104the.html#3

Plastictowel · 6th April 2006, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by Huntsman

And this is the problem. This is approaching the problem from the wrong direction. What tests have been done to prove it is the first question that should be asked, not what tests disprove it. Theorectically, I could claim that broccolli cures cancer. The burden of proof rests on me to show the claim is true, not on someone else to disprove it.

Of course, I understand that for many, they don't view it this way. Testimonials are often viewed as evidence, when they are a specifically selected set of subjective evaluations, rather than anything approaching proof. Additionally, there are so many doubtful "medical" products out there, that not all of them are studied scientifically, especially when their proposed methods of action are obviously untrue. Scientists tend to focus their efforts into research that shows promise...there's not much grant money to be had (or scientific status/awards/etc) in disproving something that the vast majority of the field regards as "not true enough to need disproving".

I understand this,but I'm thinking from my Fathers perspective for his sake. "Ah Sam, my friend, has had it wrok for him and his son"
That right there is "proof" to him. And I can't blame him. Like I said Sam is his close friend and they have always shared wisdom, resources etc, to assist each other in easier lives.

Arkan_Wolfshade · 6th April 2006, 08:03 AM

http://google2.fda.gov/search?q=cach...t=FDA&oe=UTF-8

http://google2.fda.gov/search?q=cach...&oe=ISO-8859-1

Quote:

PRODUCT Software Programs for the Electro-Physio-Biofeedback-Xrroid

System, a biofeedback system used primarily by chiropractors,
dentists, and physicians interested in homepathic diagnosis and
treatments. Recall #Z-084-3.
CODE Serial numbers1010100 through 1010246.
MANUFACTURER Eclosion, Inc., Commerce City, Colorado.
RECALLED BY Manufacturer, by letter July 3, 1992. Firm-initiated recall
ongoing.
DISTRIBUTION Nationwide, England, Canada, Italy, Australia, British Colombia,
Ireland.
QUANTITY 139 units were distributed.
REASON The firm had made unapproved changes and revisions to the
software program. These claims were found to deviate
significantly from the 510(k) submitted.

scotth · 6th April 2006, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

http://www.thequantumalliance.com/features.htm

Trinary....it's gotta be better than binary....

Actually trinary is an old idea. Early Russian efforts at CPU building were trinary if I remember correctly. That idea was abondoned. You get more data per bit, but the increase complexity to handle 3 states per bit rather than 2 made the idea a loser.

Quantum computers certainly would NOT be considered trinary. A q-bit could be called binary or maybe omni-ary? (I just made that up, can ya tell?) but not trinary. Q-bits can essentially be true or false (1 or 0) or some combination of both, including pretty much both at the same time.

Arkan_Wolfshade · 6th April 2006, 08:16 AM

Wasn't trinary computing based on the states of "on", "off", and "undefined", or am I misremembering?

scotth · 6th April 2006, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade

Wasn't trinary computing based on the states of "on", "off", and "undefined", or am I misremembering?

I'm afraid you are misremembering or more likely merging two different ideas.

Trinary had 3 states: positive voltage, ground, and negative voltage.

There is still currently an idea called tri-state. It is still used today for buffering common data buses of many kinds. It is used to time multiplex info from multiple source on the same bus. The active device will output positive voltage or ground, all the inactive devices will output an open, undefined, or high impedance state.

LTC8K6 · 6th April 2006, 08:53 AM

Well, my point was that few serious tests are going to be done because the descriptions and ideas are so ridiculous on their face.

By that I mean it will be hard to find someone who took the device seriously and performed a serious test of it because of the claims and the description of how it's supposed to work.

LTC8K6 · 6th April 2006, 08:58 AM

This might help:

Quote:

Disclaimer:
Each EPFX (QXCI) and SCIO Practitioner listed in The Quantum Alliance EPFX (QXCI) and SCIO Practitioners Gallery has independently chosen to advertise their services on this website. The Quantum Alliance is in no way held responsible for any results of visits with any EPFX (QXCI) and SCIO Practitioner listed in the Gallery nor are we endorsing their services in any way. Each practitioner listed in the Gallery is provided with a listing free of charge. The Quantum Alliance has not received any fees from any EPFX (QXCI) and SCIO Practitioner taking part in this free listing service. No claims are made of the EPFX (QXCI) and SCIO system or its results and nothing that the EPFX (QXCI) and SCIO, or any EPFX (QXCI) and SCIO Practitioner does diagnoses or treats any illness or disease nor replaces any other treatment. Please consult your family medical doctor for the diagnosis or treatment of disease. Please also consult your family medical doctor before undertaking any health program.

scotth · 6th April 2006, 09:03 AM

From the south end of the quackwatch article.

Quote:

If you encounter a practitioner who uses one, please ask the appropriate government agencies to investigate.

This is exactly where I would start.

Arkan_Wolfshade · 6th April 2006, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by scotth

I'm afraid you are misremembering or more likely merging two different ideas.

Trinary had 3 states: positive voltage, ground, and negative voltage.

There is still currently an idea called tri-state. It is still used today for buffering common data buses of many kinds. It is used to time multiplex info from multiple source on the same bus. The active device will output positive voltage or ground, all the inactive devices will output an open, undefined, or high impedance state.

Yep, I was thinking tri-state. Sorry 'bout that.

scotth · 6th April 2006, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade

Yep, I was thinking tri-state. Sorry 'bout that.

Nothing to be sorry about that I can see.

Gr8wight · 6th April 2006, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Plastictowel

Like I said Sam is his close friend and they have always shared wisdom, resources etc, to assist each other in easier lives.

Resources, perhaps. Wisdom? Apparently not. You need to turn the tables on your father. Encourage him to help you educate Sam so that he does not fall victim to any more fraud artists like the ones he has already paid money to.

mollyblack · 7th February 2007, 11:05 AM

My sister, an actual doctor, is thinking about buying one of these. I'm going out of mind with worry because I can read the b*llsh*t! and it's really obvious that this machine is all quackery. I'm freaking out because she's convinced that a computer that she was hooked up to "literally read" her mind. She said she mentally (not out loud) asked it a question about whether she should go on a raw food diet, and it printed out in REAL WORDS that she should go on a raw food diet.

I know this is impossible because I know computers and their limitations and keep up with the MIT lab and all that and if a computer could do that, trust me it would be EVERYWHERE.

So far the links I've seen haven't given me enough to send her without her thinking that people are just scared of technology they don't understand. I tried to tell her yesterday that a computer can't literally read your mind and WRITE OUT IN WORDS AN ANSWER.

So, yeah, like the above person who started this thread, I don't want to see her either become scammed into buying one of these things and become a scammer because she truly believes it works and/or use it in place of actual tests that work and have proven to work.

She said that it could even read the blood that had been taken out of your body as having the SAME bio-feedback responses as her blood that was in her body that the machine was reading.

What do I do? Do I turn this person who is working with her in? How do I go about that? I've never done it before (though I've called the police when necessary so have no issues turning in a charlatan).

Help would be great. Thanks.

-- Molly

Starrman · 7th February 2007, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by Plastictowel

I understand this,but I'm thinking from my Fathers perspective for his sake. "Ah Sam, my friend, has had it wrok for him and his son"

What does he mean by 'worked'? Did it actually diagnose something specific, which was then verified by a medical doctor? Did it nail some specific disorder he already knew he had? Ask him to be very specific as to what he means by 'it worked'. As you can read at quackwatch, it 'worked' as in it was hooked up and gave a diagnosis, but it did not return any truly meaningful or useful information.

And the big-pharma argument is silly - if this thing did work, it would be in every clinic and doctor's office on earth. A doctor doesn't need to consult pharmacutical companies in order to obtain diagnostic equipment.

bruto · 7th February 2007, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by Starrman

And the big-pharma argument is silly - if this thing did work, it would be in every clinic and doctor's office on earth. A doctor doesn't need to consult pharmacutical companies in order to obtain diagnostic equipment.

If a machine like that were possible, "Big Pharma" would be on it like hyenas on a carcass. After all, a machine that can diagnose can also suggest treatment, and a machine can be programmed.

"You have a case of recalcitrant plebney. Ask your Doctor about Thortical (r), now available in timed release capsules."

frenetik · 3rd April 2007, 01:39 AM

I think I've found Prof. William C. Nelson in Hungary!
He (or She?) goes by the name: Desiré Dubounet.
This is her place: wwwdotclubbohemiandothu

I would post normal links, but I'm not allowed, yet!

trvlr2 · 3rd April 2007, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Plastictowel

I understand this,but I'm thinking from my Fathers perspective for his sake. "Ah Sam, my friend, has had it wrok for him and his son"
That right there is "proof" to him. And I can't blame him. Like I said Sam is his close friend and they have always shared wisdom, resources etc, to assist each other in easier lives.

Plastictowel-why not ask your dad if he would jump from a tall building because Sam did?

Or give away everything, to go live the "free life", if Sam did?

I don't know your circumstances, but this may not bode well for your future(and his). Dementia happens. Alzheimer's , too.
Sometimes to people we love.

Mongrel · 3rd April 2007, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by frenetik

I think I've found Prof. William C. Nelson in Hungary!
He (or She?) goes by the name: Desiré Dubounet.
This is her place: wwwdotclubbohemiandothu

I would post normal links, but I'm not allowed, yet!

Here you go

Linky

EoR over at Second site has a couple of articles (including correspondence) about the device.
http://thesecondsight.blogspot.com/2...y-machine.html
http://thesecondsight.blogspot.com/2...s-mailbag.html

jon · 3rd April 2007, 03:20 PM

Plastictowel and Molly - what did your dad and sister decide to do in the end, if you don't mind me asking?

mollyblack · 5th May 2007, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by jon

Plastictowel and Molly - what did your dad and sister decide to do in the end, if you don't mind me asking?

Well, she hasn't purchased it yet, but she's falling deeper into woo-woo land every day. It's very disturbing to know she purchased tuning forks to help her chakras (she and her boyfriend each paid for a set at $150 per set I think). She is successfully running her own business as a Podiatrist still, so she still maintains some semblance of sanity with regards to medicine, but she does worry me.

mollyblack · 31st January 2008, 08:06 AM

I know this subject has been closed for a long time but after an interview by a local TV station for a news report they're working on. It stems from this article here: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...racle18m2.html as well as http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...strong18m.html
and finally this http://www.newsdaily.com/Science/UPI...bc-us-epfx.xml -- all of which basically discuss the fact that due to Lance Armstrong's chiropractor claiming he used it on Lance Armstrong and Mr. Armstrong stating that is not the case and in fact suing to have those claims removed has caused the machine to apparently be finally banning the machine.

My sister never did buy one and I am actually quite surprised that there are businesses still using it here in the Austin area. I sat down with a local news reporter for half an hour to discuss the reasons I have skeptical feelings about the machines and what it is like to live in pain, to try both western and eastern health cures and have nothing work and how it feels to see somebody you love possibly purchasing a machine that (as it seems now to be developing) will have the FDA ban it from use in the USA as an actual cure.

Just thought I would share with those who might still be following this. Lance Armstrong being thrown into the mix has definitely created more reporters to start to take notice of this. In fact this thread got me tracked down by the news reporter who interviewed me for my take on the whole "woo" thing from the point of view of a disabled skeptic.

Hopefully the editor will not edit me to sound like an idiot. I find out late February when the report airs just how it will all look and sound. *Meep*

5th April 2006, 07:16 PM	#1
Plastictowel Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 226	Bill Nelson Qxci SCIO My dad and his friend are interested in this. His friend swears that it has done wonders for him and his son, and is now trying to talk my Dad into it. I showed my Dad randis commentary, and this was his friends argument to out debate Randi. Let me know if you guys agree, disagree, or any assistance is appreciated. I just want to make sure what my Dad is doing is OKAY. Also note in the E-mail a mention of Sherry. Sherry Rogers(or Rodgers cant remember) was a College Sweetheart of my Dads, who has gone on to write books such as Detoxify or Die, and other such things. My dad has a large respect for this woman. Here is Sam (My dads friends reply) Cary, I have read the articles from people like this who make statements like "strains the imagination" (therefore it must not work because I can understand it) and then after reading about the machine asks the question "Can anyone translate this please?" He makes his assumptions based on what he does not understand, and not on actual fact or even putting the machine to a test. Then he makes the statement - One intellectual alarm bell on his website rang loudly regarding this statement: "Rather than to deal with the politics of health in the US and the FDA, Bill Nelson moved to Budapest in 1993." You and I both know how the FDA and pharmaceutical companies poopoo any technology that has the potential of diminishing their profits (Sherry Rogers knows that to) Bill Nelson was not going to waste his time fighting that uphill battle. I have been treated with the machine, so has my son. You can not fool the machine - it takes all of the guess work out of "what is the cause of the symptoms". Cary it works, and it can tell you literally everything about your body and what to do about any imbalances. Maybe before we present this to Sherry, you could come here and see first hand, with a live demo, with you hooked up and asking questions while the machine tells you everything about you and then tell you what you can do to improve your health an quality of life. (Sun Country fly's here from Jacksonville for $99) In reading Sherry's books and news letters, this machine does exactly what she does to determine what toxins are causing problems and what enzymes, minerals and vitamin deficiencies you have. The difference is you don't have to wait two weeks for the results. I am convinced if you put the machine to the test you will be amazed and impressed. I also fell you will be enthusiastic to put this technology before Sherry for her own evaluation after you put it to the test. Let me know what you want to do. Sincerely, Sam
Plastictowel Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 226

5th April 2006, 07:53 PM	#2
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 21,423	Run away! This is such an obvious scam. The whole thing is idiotic even at first glance. Anyone who falls for this is either selling it as part of the MLM scam, or they are so far out there it's useless to try to reason with them.
	__________________ What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

5th April 2006, 08:04 PM	#4
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 21,423	http://www.thequantumalliance.com/features.htm Trinary....it's gotta be better than binary....
	__________________ What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

5th April 2006, 08:18 PM	#5
Plastictowel Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 226	Any well tested, factual including, articles or research on this proving to be a sham???
Plastictowel Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 226

5th April 2006, 08:33 PM	#6
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 4,456	What is an Xrroid?
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 4,456	__________________ This post approved by your local jPac (Jimbo07 Political Action Committee), also registered with Jimbo07 as the Jimbo07 Equality Rights Knowledge Betterment Action Group. Atoms in supernova explosion get huge business -- Pixie of key

5th April 2006, 07:59 PM	#3
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 21,423	http://www.thequantumalliance.com/ http://www.thequantumalliance.com/pricing_info.htm http://www.thequantumalliance.com/fee_structure.htm
	__________________ What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break? Last edited by LTC8K6; 5th April 2006 at 08:01 PM.

5th April 2006, 08:40 PM	#7
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 19,784	Gosh! It uses Quantum Physics! I never would have guessed. And Xrroid- is that like 'after the lazer hemoroid surgery, I was Xroid'? Or is it past tense of X-ray- "The Emugency doctor had Xroid my broked arm" ? And it uses 'vibrations'. It seems to do everything. I wonder... does it do alchemy? Then, if I had one, I could use it to transmorgrify my testicles into brass balls, and I could sell those machines too.
	__________________ Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.

5th April 2006, 08:41 PM	#8
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 21,423	I would think the site alone is proof enough. Why bother to waste time and money to test such idiocy? Shouldn't the burden be on the mfg/seller to show that it does anything at all?
	__________________ What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

5th April 2006, 08:43 PM	#9
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 21,423	http://www.thequantumalliance.com/functions.htm
	__________________ What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

5th April 2006, 08:50 PM	#10
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 19,784	http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...ts/xrroid.html
	__________________ Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.

5th April 2006, 10:16 PM	#11
Arkan_Wolfshade Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 7,154	Originally Posted by Plastictowel ... Cary, I have read the articles from people like this who make statements like "strains the imagination" (therefore it must not work because I can understand it) and then after reading about the machine asks the question "Can anyone translate this please?" He makes his assumptions based on what he does not understand, and not on actual fact or even putting the machine to a test. Strawman Quote: Then he makes the statement - One intellectual alarm bell on his website rang loudly regarding this statement: "Rather than to deal with the politics of health in the US and the FDA, Bill Nelson moved to Budapest in 1993." You and I both know how the FDA and pharmaceutical companies poopoo any technology that has the potential of diminishing their profits (Sherry Rogers knows that to) Bill Nelson was not going to waste his time fighting that uphill battle. So, he was either (a) trying to avoid federal regulation set up to protect consumers or (b) trying to avoid a conspiratorial beaucracy (cripes I can't even spell that close enough to have m-w give me the right spelling sigh) so he could get his miracle product to the people that need it. Quote: I have been treated with the machine, so has my son. You can not fool the machine - it takes all of the guess work out of "what is the cause of the symptoms". Cary it works, and it can tell you literally everything about your body and what to do about any imbalances. Anecdote. Also, "imbalances" earns double-plus woo points. Quote: Maybe before we present this to Sherry, you could come here and see first hand, with a live demo, with you hooked up and asking questions while the machine tells you everything about you and then tell you what you can do to improve your health an quality of life. (Sun Country fly's here from Jacksonville for $99) "Once you've blown a hundred bucks getting here, I know you'll be more receptive because you'll want it to work so that $100 isn't just out the window." Quote: In reading Sherry's books and news letters, this machine does exactly what she does to determine what toxins are causing problems and what enzymes, minerals and vitamin deficiencies you have. The difference is you don't have to wait two weeks for the results. It's way better than any lab equipment out there. Yet, pharm companies aren't interested in it. Oh yeah, that's because it'll cut into their profits. Quote: I am convinced if you put the machine to the test you will be amazed and impressed. I also fell you will be enthusiastic to put this technology before Sherry for her own evaluation after you put it to the test. Let me know what you want to do. Sincerely, Sam "blah blah blah"

6th April 2006, 06:51 AM	#12
Plastictowel Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 226	I have to say I'm pretty disapointed by these replies guys. My dad is a 60+ year old man. Simply saying to him a series of "smart a$$" comments like I seem to get as my thorough "explanations" on the quackery of the machine, just doesn't cut it. I can't just say OMG IMBALANCES, HAHA, Yeah right. I mean come on guys...and the poster who broke down the letter, thank you..I guess. But that literally contributed nothing but a blatant one sided, unscientific, smart a$$ argument over the faults of the machine. And Sam has been my Dads friend for over 20 years. Saying something like he wants my Dad to pay $99 so it's worth it...isn't the case. The man always has my Dads BEST interest in mind. Granted he could be wrong here, but don't take this as some guy try to Con my Dad. Take it as someone whose been Conned, and now is passing the word the wrong way. Than again hell maybe it doe work, I've seen nothing to really DISPROVE it. Sure that post has lots of good information regarding Bill Nelson himself being a fake, but he isn't the issue. The machine is.
Plastictowel Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 226

6th April 2006, 07:05 AM	#13
Gr8wight red-shirted crewman Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,661	Originally Posted by Plastictowel I have to say I'm pretty disapointed by these replies guys. My dad is a 60+ year old man. Simply saying to him a series of "smart a$$" comments like I seem to get as my thorough "explanations" on the quackery of the machine, just doesn't cut it. I can't just say OMG IMBALANCES, HAHA, Yeah right. I mean come on guys...and the poster who broke down the letter, thank you..I guess. But that literally contributed nothing but a blatant one sided, unscientific, smart a$$ argument over the faults of the machine. And Sam has been my Dads friend for over 20 years. Saying something like he wants my Dad to pay $99 so it's worth it...isn't the case. The man always has my Dads BEST interest in mind. Granted he could be wrong here, but don't take this as some guy try to Con my Dad. Take it as someone whose been Conned, and now is passing the word the wrong way. Than again hell maybe it doe work, I've seen nothing to really DISPROVE it. Sure that post has lots of good information regarding Bill Nelson himself being a fake, but he isn't the issue. The machine is. Originally Posted by casebro http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...ts/xrroid.html Plastictowel, read casebro's link. There is a ton of information there. My favourite bit: Quote: The device fires low levels of current into the patient and then in a method similar to radar, reads the bounced signals and transfers them to a database. The data base consists of several thousand diagnostic categories from several different medical disciplines including homeopathy, acupuncture, chiropractic, traditional medical, as well as astrology, prayer wells, and other mystical data. Upon studying the software I also found pornographic images embedded in it, for what reason I was unable to determine. No, wait, this one: Quote: I tested other members of my staff and discovered similar misdiagnosis including one of the male doctors who was diagnosed a being both pregnant and suffering from testicular cancer. More seriously: Quote: This device must be classified as dangerous. The danger it presents is two-fold: (1) it makes misleading and inconsistent diagnosis; and (2) the firing of microcurrent into an individual can be harmful Your dad needs to read this website. The information about Nelson and his various phony degrees is important because it establishes his reputation as a known scam artist. This machine is not only not going to help your father, it is possible that it could actually do him harm.
	__________________ Aurora Walking Vacation "A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight and understanding."--Marshall McLuhan

6th April 2006, 07:14 AM	#14
Plastictowel Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 226	I did make sure to pass that link on to him. It's just going to be a B1tch of a time trying to convince him not to do this. As Sam like I said is a good man, with good intentions, that has always helped my Dad. I only recently was fully able to get my dad off the John of God fix.
Plastictowel Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 226

6th April 2006, 07:35 AM	#15
Hellbound Merchant of Doom Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day... Posts: 15,112	Originally Posted by Plastictowel Than again hell maybe it doe work, I've seen nothing to really DISPROVE it. And this is the problem. This is approaching the problem from the wrong direction. What tests have been done to prove it is the first question that should be asked, not what tests disprove it. Theorectically, I could claim that broccolli cures cancer. The burden of proof rests on me to show the claim is true, not on someone else to disprove it. Of course, I understand that for many, they don't view it this way. Testimonials are often viewed as evidence, when they are a specifically selected set of subjective evaluations, rather than anything approaching proof. Additionally, there are so many doubtful "medical" products out there, that not all of them are studied scientifically, especially when their proposed methods of action are obviously untrue. Scientists tend to focus their efforts into research that shows promise...there's not much grant money to be had (or scientific status/awards/etc) in disproving something that the vast majority of the field regards as "not true enough to need disproving".
	__________________ History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell

6th April 2006, 07:43 AM	#16
Arkan_Wolfshade Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 7,154	http://www.healthwatcher.net/quacker...XCI/index.html http://tinyurl.com/48gmn http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...ts/xrroid.html http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/qxci.htm http://curezone.com/forums/m.asp?f=225&i=30 http://jeromekahn123.tripod.com/spiritualism/id6.html http://groups.google.com/group/uk.pe...&output=gplain http://www.randi.org/jr/061104the.html#3

6th April 2006, 07:53 AM	#17
Plastictowel Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 226	Originally Posted by Huntsman And this is the problem. This is approaching the problem from the wrong direction. What tests have been done to prove it is the first question that should be asked, not what tests disprove it. Theorectically, I could claim that broccolli cures cancer. The burden of proof rests on me to show the claim is true, not on someone else to disprove it. Of course, I understand that for many, they don't view it this way. Testimonials are often viewed as evidence, when they are a specifically selected set of subjective evaluations, rather than anything approaching proof. Additionally, there are so many doubtful "medical" products out there, that not all of them are studied scientifically, especially when their proposed methods of action are obviously untrue. Scientists tend to focus their efforts into research that shows promise...there's not much grant money to be had (or scientific status/awards/etc) in disproving something that the vast majority of the field regards as "not true enough to need disproving". I understand this,but I'm thinking from my Fathers perspective for his sake. "Ah Sam, my friend, has had it wrok for him and his son" That right there is "proof" to him. And I can't blame him. Like I said Sam is his close friend and they have always shared wisdom, resources etc, to assist each other in easier lives.
Plastictowel Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 226

6th April 2006, 08:03 AM	#18
Arkan_Wolfshade Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 7,154	http://google2.fda.gov/search?q=cach...t=FDA&oe=UTF-8 http://google2.fda.gov/search?q=cach...&oe=ISO-8859-1 Quote: PRODUCT Software Programs for the Electro-Physio-Biofeedback-Xrroid System, a biofeedback system used primarily by chiropractors, dentists, and physicians interested in homepathic diagnosis and treatments. Recall #Z-084-3. CODE Serial numbers1010100 through 1010246. MANUFACTURER Eclosion, Inc., Commerce City, Colorado. RECALLED BY Manufacturer, by letter July 3, 1992. Firm-initiated recall ongoing. DISTRIBUTION Nationwide, England, Canada, Italy, Australia, British Colombia, Ireland. QUANTITY 139 units were distributed. REASON The firm had made unapproved changes and revisions to the software program. These claims were found to deviate significantly from the 510(k) submitted.

6th April 2006, 08:12 AM	#19
scotth Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,800	Originally Posted by LTC8K6 http://www.thequantumalliance.com/features.htm Trinary....it's gotta be better than binary.... Actually trinary is an old idea. Early Russian efforts at CPU building were trinary if I remember correctly. That idea was abondoned. You get more data per bit, but the increase complexity to handle 3 states per bit rather than 2 made the idea a loser. Quantum computers certainly would NOT be considered trinary. A q-bit could be called binary or maybe omni-ary? (I just made that up, can ya tell?) but not trinary. Q-bits can essentially be true or false (1 or 0) or some combination of both, including pretty much both at the same time.
scotth Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,800

6th April 2006, 08:16 AM	#20
Arkan_Wolfshade Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 7,154	Wasn't trinary computing based on the states of "on", "off", and "undefined", or am I misremembering?

6th April 2006, 08:49 AM	#21
scotth Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,800	Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade Wasn't trinary computing based on the states of "on", "off", and "undefined", or am I misremembering? I'm afraid you are misremembering or more likely merging two different ideas. Trinary had 3 states: positive voltage, ground, and negative voltage. There is still currently an idea called tri-state. It is still used today for buffering common data buses of many kinds. It is used to time multiplex info from multiple source on the same bus. The active device will output positive voltage or ground, all the inactive devices will output an open, undefined, or high impedance state.
scotth Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,800

6th April 2006, 08:53 AM	#22
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 21,423	Well, my point was that few serious tests are going to be done because the descriptions and ideas are so ridiculous on their face. By that I mean it will be hard to find someone who took the device seriously and performed a serious test of it because of the claims and the description of how it's supposed to work.
	__________________ What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

6th April 2006, 08:58 AM	#23
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 21,423	This might help: Quote: Disclaimer: Each EPFX (QXCI) and SCIO Practitioner listed in The Quantum Alliance EPFX (QXCI) and SCIO Practitioners Gallery has independently chosen to advertise their services on this website. The Quantum Alliance is in no way held responsible for any results of visits with any EPFX (QXCI) and SCIO Practitioner listed in the Gallery nor are we endorsing their services in any way. Each practitioner listed in the Gallery is provided with a listing free of charge. The Quantum Alliance has not received any fees from any EPFX (QXCI) and SCIO Practitioner taking part in this free listing service. No claims are made of the EPFX (QXCI) and SCIO system or its results and nothing that the EPFX (QXCI) and SCIO, or any EPFX (QXCI) and SCIO Practitioner does diagnoses or treats any illness or disease nor replaces any other treatment. Please consult your family medical doctor for the diagnosis or treatment of disease. Please also consult your family medical doctor before undertaking any health program.
	__________________ What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

6th April 2006, 09:03 AM	#24
scotth Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,800	From the south end of the quackwatch article. Quote: If you encounter a practitioner who uses one, please ask the appropriate government agencies to investigate. This is exactly where I would start.
scotth Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,800

6th April 2006, 09:05 AM	#25
Arkan_Wolfshade Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 7,154	Originally Posted by scotth I'm afraid you are misremembering or more likely merging two different ideas. Trinary had 3 states: positive voltage, ground, and negative voltage. There is still currently an idea called tri-state. It is still used today for buffering common data buses of many kinds. It is used to time multiplex info from multiple source on the same bus. The active device will output positive voltage or ground, all the inactive devices will output an open, undefined, or high impedance state. Yep, I was thinking tri-state. Sorry 'bout that.

6th April 2006, 09:15 AM	#26
scotth Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,800	Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade Yep, I was thinking tri-state. Sorry 'bout that. Nothing to be sorry about that I can see.
scotth Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,800

6th April 2006, 10:41 AM	#27
Gr8wight red-shirted crewman Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,661	Originally Posted by Plastictowel Like I said Sam is his close friend and they have always shared wisdom, resources etc, to assist each other in easier lives. Resources, perhaps. Wisdom? Apparently not. You need to turn the tables on your father. Encourage him to help you educate Sam so that he does not fall victim to any more fraud artists like the ones he has already paid money to.
	__________________ Aurora Walking Vacation "A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight and understanding."--Marshall McLuhan

7th February 2007, 11:05 AM	#28
mollyblack Scholar Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 115	My sister, an actual doctor, is thinking about buying one of these. I'm going out of mind with worry because I can read the bllsht! and it's really obvious that this machine is all quackery. I'm freaking out because she's convinced that a computer that she was hooked up to "literally read" her mind. She said she mentally (not out loud) asked it a question about whether she should go on a raw food diet, and it printed out in REAL WORDS that she should go on a raw food diet. I know this is impossible because I know computers and their limitations and keep up with the MIT lab and all that and if a computer could do that, trust me it would be EVERYWHERE. So far the links I've seen haven't given me enough to send her without her thinking that people are just scared of technology they don't understand. I tried to tell her yesterday that a computer can't literally read your mind and WRITE OUT IN WORDS AN ANSWER. So, yeah, like the above person who started this thread, I don't want to see her either become scammed into buying one of these things and become a scammer because she truly believes it works and/or use it in place of actual tests that work and have proven to work. She said that it could even read the blood that had been taken out of your body as having the SAME bio-feedback responses as her blood that was in her body that the machine was reading. What do I do? Do I turn this person who is working with her in? How do I go about that? I've never done it before (though I've called the police when necessary so have no issues turning in a charlatan). Help would be great. Thanks. -- Molly
mollyblack Scholar Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 115

7th February 2007, 01:50 PM	#29
Starrman Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 1,171	Originally Posted by Plastictowel I understand this,but I'm thinking from my Fathers perspective for his sake. "Ah Sam, my friend, has had it wrok for him and his son" What does he mean by 'worked'? Did it actually diagnose something specific, which was then verified by a medical doctor? Did it nail some specific disorder he already knew he had? Ask him to be very specific as to what he means by 'it worked'. As you can read at quackwatch, it 'worked' as in it was hooked up and gave a diagnosis, but it did not return any truly meaningful or useful information. And the big-pharma argument is silly - if this thing did work, it would be in every clinic and doctor's office on earth. A doctor doesn't need to consult pharmacutical companies in order to obtain diagnostic equipment.
	__________________ --------------------------------------------- Prayer has no place in the public schools, just like facts have no place in organized religion. --Superintendent Chalmers

7th February 2007, 07:35 PM	#30
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 35,364	Originally Posted by Starrman And the big-pharma argument is silly - if this thing did work, it would be in every clinic and doctor's office on earth. A doctor doesn't need to consult pharmacutical companies in order to obtain diagnostic equipment. If a machine like that were possible, "Big Pharma" would be on it like hyenas on a carcass. After all, a machine that can diagnose can also suggest treatment, and a machine can be programmed. "You have a case of recalcitrant plebney. Ask your Doctor about Thortical (r), now available in timed release capsules."
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

3rd April 2007, 01:39 AM	#31
frenetik New Blood Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1	Prof. Nelson in Hungary I think I've found Prof. William C. Nelson in Hungary! He (or She?) goes by the name: Desiré Dubounet. This is her place: wwwdotclubbohemiandothu I would post normal links, but I'm not allowed, yet!
frenetik New Blood Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1

3rd April 2007, 12:07 PM	#32
trvlr2 Muse Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 832	Originally Posted by Plastictowel I understand this,but I'm thinking from my Fathers perspective for his sake. "Ah Sam, my friend, has had it wrok for him and his son" That right there is "proof" to him. And I can't blame him. Like I said Sam is his close friend and they have always shared wisdom, resources etc, to assist each other in easier lives. Plastictowel-why not ask your dad if he would jump from a tall building because Sam did? Or give away everything, to go live the "free life", if Sam did? I don't know your circumstances, but this may not bode well for your future(and his). Dementia happens. Alzheimer's , too. Sometimes to people we love.
	__________________ Conservatives: Proud Major Supplier of turds to the National Punch Bowl since 1969. Some people are living legends; Republicans are living lies...

3rd April 2007, 02:30 PM	#33
Mongrel Begging for Scraps Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: UK, suburbia. 20 minutes in the future Posts: 2,235	Originally Posted by frenetik I think I've found Prof. William C. Nelson in Hungary! He (or She?) goes by the name: Desiré Dubounet. This is her place: wwwdotclubbohemiandothu I would post normal links, but I'm not allowed, yet! Here you go Linky EoR over at Second site has a couple of articles (including correspondence) about the device. http://thesecondsight.blogspot.com/2...y-machine.html http://thesecondsight.blogspot.com/2...s-mailbag.html
	__________________ “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.” - Charles Darwin ...like so many contemporary philosophers he especially enjoyed giving helpful advice to people who were happier than he was. - Tom Lehrer

3rd April 2007, 03:20 PM	#34
jon Muse Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 897	Plastictowel and Molly - what did your dad and sister decide to do in the end, if you don't mind me asking?
jon Muse Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 897	__________________ Holford Watch: the truth about Patrick Holford, media nutritionist.

5th May 2007, 01:16 PM	#35
mollyblack Scholar Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 115	*Sigh* Originally Posted by jon Plastictowel and Molly - what did your dad and sister decide to do in the end, if you don't mind me asking? Well, she hasn't purchased it yet, but she's falling deeper into woo-woo land every day. It's very disturbing to know she purchased tuning forks to help her chakras (she and her boyfriend each paid for a set at $150 per set I think). She is successfully running her own business as a Podiatrist still, so she still maintains some semblance of sanity with regards to medicine, but she does worry me.
mollyblack Scholar Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 115	__________________ "Don't suspect a friend - report him." The movie Brazil