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#1 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 37,044
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Another trial of homoeopathy
The Bristol Homeopathic Hospital is carrying out another trial of homoeopathy. This time they're looking at children with severe asthma. I wonder what sort of blinding they'll be using.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1774 By the way, does anyone want to vote on the poll on that page? At the moment "yes" has 57%. |
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#2 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 37,044
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There wasn't anything on the Homeopathic Hospital's page, but there is a press release on the United Bristol Healthcare NHS Trust main site.
Quote:
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#3 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,306
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Notice the completely uncritical mention of this:
Quote:
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Pharmacology/dc...ck.html#spence |
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#4 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 37,044
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#5 |
Sharper than a thorn
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Duxford, Cambridgeshire, UK
Posts: 5,444
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#6 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 28,209
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#7 |
Sharper than a thorn
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Duxford, Cambridgeshire, UK
Posts: 5,444
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#8 |
Disturbing shirts
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 717
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voted and commented.
It's the Daily Mail after all, hardly the most skeptical newspaper... |
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http://intelligentdesignr.org.uk Who Is The intelligent designr? http://www.ukskeptics.com Skepticism in the UK |
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#9 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 37,044
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__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#10 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,789
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Voted and commented.
70% "no" - much better. ![]() |
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"Reci bobu bob a popu pop." - Tanja "Everything is physics. This does not mean that physics is everything." - Cuddles "The entire practice of homeopathy can be substituted with the advice to "take two aspirins and call me in the morning." - Linda "Homeopathy: I never knew there was so little in it." - BSM |
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#11 |
Mad Scientist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 13,749
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It's back down to 64%
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Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it! |
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#12 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,867
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F'kin pisses me off. I have asthma, and it's nothing to fool around with.
I wonder what'll happen if a patient dies.... |
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#13 |
Scholar
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 67
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The homeopathy seems to be in addition to best pharmaceutical treatment.
So we treat the patients as best we can using steroids, B receptor antagonists, antihistamines and then refer them to a nice homeopath who will spend hours with them and their relatives giving them the additional reasurance. In order to do a Placebo control at this level, we would need to refer the control group to a specialist Asthma nurse who will spend the same amount of time in gving reasurance and expalining how each medication will help them. In Cardiology trials compliance and responder rates improve significantly with weekly contact from a trial nurse, this even works when done over the telephone. |
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#14 |
Muse
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 608
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I wonder how much time and money is wasted on researching homeopathy, and providing it on the NHS…
![]() For a moment there I thought the Daily Mail had removed another poll with a result it didn’t approve of, but no, it was just me being blind! The result seems to be back to 70 % no. Thanks for the heads up. I don’t like clicking on their site, but sometimes it’s worth it. |
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#15 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 37,044
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Actually, all you need to do is to send both groups to the homoeopath, allow the homoeopath to do their thing and prescribe a remedy, and then have a third party give members of the verum group whatever remedy has been prescribed for them and the control group a placebo. This way everything is the same apart from the remedy.
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#16 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 26,704
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The Rolfe Protocol.
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#17 |
anthropomorphic ape
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 8,377
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the guardian's bad science writer is pretty good for debunking such stuff....here's his article on homeopathy.....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...558417,00.html if there were more guardian readers and less daily mail readers....the world would be a better place lol ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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#18 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 37,044
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That's the one (although I'd rather not get lawyers invoved if we can help it...).
Edited to add link. |
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#19 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,639
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Book title?
Anyway the vote is 71/29 now. I've sent a comment - not yet posted. The Daily Mail forum apparently has some sceptics - as in this thread. |
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#20 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 37,044
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His columns about homoeopathy are archived here.
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__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#21 |
Muse
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 608
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One of the many things that have annoyed me about homeopathy over the years is a rather poor grandmother posting me boxes of Oscillococcinum, depsite my objections, because she thought it was helpful.
![]() Have homeopathy pills ever actually been analysed? My knowledge of chemistry is rusty (to say the least!), but pointing at proof there's nothing there could be useful? Anyone want a box of Oscillococcinum?! |
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#22 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 28,209
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#23 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 26,704
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No need for analysis, really, They are all the same as sugar pillules that come out of the hundreds-and-thousands factory.
[thinks...] You know, if we talk to the confectioners, we can make a fortune here! Bottle the different coloured H&T's so that all in one bottle are one colour, and call them "identified homeopathic remedies"! Easier to tell them apart! |
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#24 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,306
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What I find most worrying is the high number of GPs who refer patients to homeopaths. Across the UK as a whole it’s 42%, with 86% of Scottish GPs said to be “in favour” of it. More here:
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Pharmacology/dc...-sept-2005.pdf If studies such as those done by the Bristol Homeopathic Hospital are taken at face value by busy GPs, then these numbers are bound to rise. It’s all so irresponsible. |
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#25 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,467
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Most homoeopaths these days wouldn't claim that there was any chemical difference between homoeopathic remedies and the base tablet or medicine, Avogadro's law is too well known.
Instead they cite 'quantum' effects or even 'local' effects, the claims for which are indistinguishable from magic. This local effect has been used to excuse results of homoeopathy trials in the past which have failed to distinguish between remedies and placebo where the explanation is that the 'intention' of the practitioner to treat is enough to effect a result, regardless of whether the verum remedy was given or not. When you're up against this sort of post-hoc rationalisation you really can't win. Yuri |
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Visit rationalvetmed.net and rationalvetmed.org - because nothing is as good as homeopathy... ![]() 'No Way to Treat a Friend: Lifting the Lid on Complementary and Alternative Veterinary Medicine' book now available to order. |
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#26 |
Muse
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 608
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#27 |
Muse
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 608
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#28 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 37,044
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Not necessarily, at least for certain types of medication: http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte.../313/7072/1624
I'm sure I've also seen claims that placebos of certain colours have more of an effect than other colours, but I can't find anything at the moment. |
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#29 |
Muse
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 608
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That’s one of the great things about this forum. You post a hypothesis, then someone replies with an interesting link providing evidence against it
![]() Though I wonder whether culture has a significant effect. Perhaps this is what Renee Rynn was on about? ![]() |
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#30 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 26,704
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I give in! Where the heck is that poll on that page???
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#31 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 37,044
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__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#32 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 26,704
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Ta! No vote registered.
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#33 |
Scholar
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 89
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This is an interesting article. It basically says that homeopathy only works because of the placebo effect. So what is the placebo effect? According to Wiki, it is
Quote:
From an FDA article, we have the following:
Quote:
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And is it ethical for a doctor to refer a patient to a homeopothist, knowing that the homeopothist will very likely conduct placebo therapy, which may help the patient if the patient believes it will? I suspect that many doctors do just that, rather than prescribe a placebo themselves. So perhaps homeopathy has a place in medicine, for those who aren’t skeptical about it. Provided, of course, that the placebo is not substituted for conventional therapy, but is used in addition to it. There is a catch 22, here, in that the more intelligent and knowledgeable (and skeptical) you are, the less likely you are to benefit from placebo therapy. Unless, of course, you can learn to harness whatever causes the placebo effect, and invoke it without benefit of an actual placebo, sort of like the mind-over-body control that buddhist monks in Tibet are supposed to have after a lifetime of meditation. ![]() |
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#34 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,467
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Sorry, meant to say 'non-local' effects, ie/ according to some practitioners homoeopathy has an effect not limited to the 'locale' of the remedy; the presence of the practitioner or mere intent is sufficient.
See http://www.dr-walser.ch/magic_of_signs.pdf for a paper, written by a homoeopath, that seems to admit that controlled trials show little or no effect from homoeopathic remedies so it must work by magic instead. Well worth a read if you are interested in understanding the mind-set of these people. Yuri. |
__________________
Visit rationalvetmed.net and rationalvetmed.org - because nothing is as good as homeopathy... ![]() 'No Way to Treat a Friend: Lifting the Lid on Complementary and Alternative Veterinary Medicine' book now available to order. |
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#35 |
Muse
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 664
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#36 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,598
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Beth "You are not the stuff of which you are made." Richard Dawkins, July 2005, 10:45 http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_daw..._universe.html |
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#37 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 37,044
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#38 |
Scholar
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 89
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I meant that it was positively correlated with belief in the efficacy of the placebo, which I infer would be inversely correlated with intelligence. I.e., if a person is smart enough to realize that, say, homeopathy is nonsense, then homeopathic therapy isn't going to work on that person.
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#39 |
Scholar
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 89
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That's true in some cases, but there are many situations where conventional treatment doesn't or can't really cure the problem. At the point where no additional conventional treatment is likely to be effective, additional placebo therapy may produce additional results. Placebo studies have shown that the placebo effect is stronger with therapies that the patient believes will work. There may be a lot of patients out there that are predisposed to believe in unconventional therapies (the woos and similar people, for example). These people may get more of a placebo effect out of unconventional therapies than they do out of standard therapy because they believe. Optimists live longer than pessimists, and credulous people may have the advantage in some situation over skeptics (I say this as a card-carrying skeptic, BTW).
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#40 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 6,828
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Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none! |
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