Another trial of homoeopathy

Mojo · 4th May 2006, 06:35 AM

The Bristol Homeopathic Hospital is carrying out another trial of homoeopathy. This time they're looking at children with severe asthma. I wonder what sort of blinding they'll be using.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1774

By the way, does anyone want to vote on the poll on that page? At the moment "yes" has 57%.

Mojo · 4th May 2006, 06:50 AM

There wasn't anything on the Homeopathic Hospital's page, but there is a press release on the United Bristol Healthcare NHS Trust main site.

Quote:

Children will be allocated to receive standard asthma care or standard asthma care plus homeopathy. All children will then be assessed once a month for four months.

If allocated to receive homeopathy, the children will be seen at the Bristol Homeopathic Hospital by an experienced General Practitioner, who will spend time matching a tailor-made homeopathic medicine to each child.

Families will be asked to keep daily diaries and fill in questionnaires to monitor each child’s progress.

So no blinding, and no placebo for the control group, I guess.

Blue Wode · 4th May 2006, 07:02 AM

Notice the completely uncritical mention of this:

Quote:

Research published last year in the Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine showed that 70 per cent of people with chronic illness reported improvements after homeopathic treatment. There are five NHS homeopathic hospitals in the UK.

Which is totally debunked here:

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Pharmacology/dc...ck.html#spence

Mojo · 4th May 2006, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by Blue Wode

Notice the completely uncritical mention of this:

Quote:

Research published last year in the Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine showed that 70 per cent of people with chronic illness reported improvements after homeopathic treatment. There are five NHS homeopathic hospitals in the UK.

Which is totally debunked here:

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Pharmacology/dc...ck.html#spence

Well, it's essentially the same people doing the same sort of research. From the press release:

Quote:

The results of a six-year study at the Hospital showed that more than two thirds (70%) of patients with chronic disease reported positive health changes after homeopathic treatment.

...

The most marked improvements were seen in children with asthma

Elizabeth thompson, who is involved in the new study, was the second named auther of the study published last year.

Blue Bubble · 4th May 2006, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

The Bristol Homeopathic Hospital is carrying out another trial of homoeopathy. This time they're looking at children with severe asthma. I wonder what sort of blinding they'll be using.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1774

By the way, does anyone want to vote on the poll on that page? At the moment "yes" has 57%.

It seems to let you vote as many times as you want ...

Now it's 50/50

geni · 4th May 2006, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by Blue Bubble

It seems to let you vote as many times as you want ...

Now it's 50/50

Only if you have cookies switched off.

Blue Bubble · 4th May 2006, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by geni

Only if you have cookies switched off.

Damned right I have cookies switched off !

vbloke · 4th May 2006, 08:02 AM

voted and commented.
It's the Daily Mail after all, hardly the most skeptical newspaper...

Mojo · 4th May 2006, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by vbloke

voted and commented.

John has a comment up, but no sign of yours yet.

I see "no" is up to 70%!

Deetee · 4th May 2006, 09:26 AM

Voted and commented.
70% "no" - much better.

Eos of the Eons · 4th May 2006, 08:03 PM

It's back down to 64%

clarsct · 4th May 2006, 08:44 PM

F'kin pisses me off. I have asthma, and it's nothing to fool around with.

I wonder what'll happen if a patient dies....

Aardvark · 5th May 2006, 02:16 AM

Originally Posted by clarsct

F'kin pisses me off. I have asthma, and it's nothing to fool around with.

I wonder what'll happen if a patient dies....

The homeopathy seems to be in addition to best pharmaceutical treatment.

So we treat the patients as best we can using steroids, B receptor antagonists, antihistamines and then refer them to a nice homeopath who will spend hours with them and their relatives giving them the additional reasurance.

In order to do a Placebo control at this level, we would need to refer the control group to a specialist Asthma nurse who will spend the same amount of time in gving reasurance and expalining how each medication will help them.

In Cardiology trials compliance and responder rates improve significantly with weekly contact from a trial nurse, this even works when done over the telephone.

rats · 5th May 2006, 02:33 AM

I wonder how much time and money is wasted on researching homeopathy, and providing it on the NHS…

For a moment there I thought the Daily Mail had removed another poll with a result it didn’t approve of, but no, it was just me being blind! The result seems to be back to 70 % no. Thanks for the heads up. I don’t like clicking on their site, but sometimes it’s worth it.

Mojo · 5th May 2006, 02:36 AM

Originally Posted by Aardvark

In order to do a Placebo control at this level, we would need to refer the control group to a specialist Asthma nurse who will spend the same amount of time in gving reasurance and expalining how each medication will help them.

Actually, all you need to do is to send both groups to the homoeopath, allow the homoeopath to do their thing and prescribe a remedy, and then have a third party give members of the verum group whatever remedy has been prescribed for them and the control group a placebo. This way everything is the same apart from the remedy.

Zep · 5th May 2006, 02:41 AM

The Rolfe Protocol.

andyandy · 5th May 2006, 02:48 AM

the guardian's bad science writer is pretty good for debunking such stuff....here's his article on homeopathy.....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...558417,00.html

if there were more guardian readers and less daily mail readers....the world would be a better place lol

Mojo · 5th May 2006, 02:49 AM

Originally Posted by Zep

The Rolfe Protocol.

That's the one (although I'd rather not get lawyers invoved if we can help it...).

Edited to add link.

Dragon · 5th May 2006, 02:58 AM

Originally Posted by Zep

The Rolfe Protocol.

Book title?
Anyway the vote is 71/29 now. I've sent a comment - not yet posted.
The Daily Mail forum apparently has some sceptics - as in this thread.

Mojo · 5th May 2006, 02:59 AM

Originally Posted by andyandy

the guardian's bad science writer is pretty good for debunking such stuff....here's his article on homeopathy.....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...558417,00.html

His columns about homoeopathy are archived here.

rats · 5th May 2006, 03:23 AM

Originally Posted by Dragon

Book title?
Anyway the vote is 71/29 now. I've sent a comment - not yet posted.
The Daily Mail forum apparently has some sceptics - as in this thread.

One of the many things that have annoyed me about homeopathy over the years is a rather poor grandmother posting me boxes of Oscillococcinum, depsite my objections, because she thought it was helpful.

Have homeopathy pills ever actually been analysed? My knowledge of chemistry is rusty (to say the least!), but pointing at proof there's nothing there could be useful? Anyone want a box of Oscillococcinum?!

geni · 5th May 2006, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by rats

Have homeopathy pills ever actually been analysed?

Not to my knowlage. Remeber a full analasis would cost tens of thousands.

Zep · 5th May 2006, 03:52 AM

No need for analysis, really, They are all the same as sugar pillules that come out of the hundreds-and-thousands factory.

[thinks...]

You know, if we talk to the confectioners, we can make a fortune here! Bottle the different coloured H&T's so that all in one bottle are one colour, and call them "identified homeopathic remedies"! Easier to tell them apart!

Blue Wode · 5th May 2006, 04:07 AM

What I find most worrying is the high number of GPs who refer patients to homeopaths. Across the UK as a whole it’s 42%, with 86% of Scottish GPs said to be “in favour” of it. More here:

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Pharmacology/dc...-sept-2005.pdf

If studies such as those done by the Bristol Homeopathic Hospital are taken at face value by busy GPs, then these numbers are bound to rise. It’s all so irresponsible.

RationalVetMed · 5th May 2006, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by rats

Have homeopathy pills ever actually been analysed? My knowledge of chemistry is rusty (to say the least!), but pointing at proof there's nothing there could be useful?

Most homoeopaths these days wouldn't claim that there was any chemical difference between homoeopathic remedies and the base tablet or medicine, Avogadro's law is too well known.

Instead they cite 'quantum' effects or even 'local' effects, the claims for which are indistinguishable from magic. This local effect has been used to excuse results of homoeopathy trials in the past which have failed to distinguish between remedies and placebo where the explanation is that the 'intention' of the practitioner to treat is enough to effect a result, regardless of whether the verum remedy was given or not.

When you're up against this sort of post-hoc rationalisation you really can't win.

Yuri

rats · 5th May 2006, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by geni

Not to my knowlage. Remeber a full analasis would cost tens of thousands.

and more waste of resources...
Good point.

Originally Posted by Zep

You know, if we talk to the confectioners, we can make a fortune here! Bottle the different coloured H&T's so that all in one bottle are one colour, and call them "identified homeopathic remedies"! Easier to tell them apart!

I guess the colour white has more of an association with medicine. Grr.

rats · 5th May 2006, 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus

Most homoeopaths these days wouldn't claim that there was any chemical difference between homoeopathic remedies and the base tablet or medicine, Avogadro's law is too well known.

I didn’t realise that. It’s all utterly crazy!

Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus

When you're up against this sort of post-hoc rationalisation you really can't win.

Hence homeopathy = woo

Mojo · 5th May 2006, 04:26 AM

Originally Posted by rats

I guess the colour white has more of an association with medicine. Grr.

Not necessarily, at least for certain types of medication: http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte.../313/7072/1624

I'm sure I've also seen claims that placebos of certain colours have more of an effect than other colours, but I can't find anything at the moment.

rats · 5th May 2006, 04:48 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

Not necessarily, at least for certain types of medication: http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte.../313/7072/1624

That’s one of the great things about this forum. You post a hypothesis, then someone replies with an interesting link providing evidence against it

Thanks.
Though I wonder whether culture has a significant effect.

Originally Posted by Mojo

I'm sure I've also seen claims that placebos of certain colours have more of an effect than other colours, but I can't find anything at the moment.

Perhaps this is what Renee Rynn was on about?

Zep · 5th May 2006, 04:55 AM

I give in! Where the heck is that poll on that page???

Mojo · 5th May 2006, 05:10 AM

Originally Posted by Zep

I give in! Where the heck is that poll on that page???

They've replaced it with one about body mass index, and moved it to their "polls" page. Click on "More Polls >>" (under "Have your say"), and it's the 4th one down in their 10 most recent polls.

Zep · 5th May 2006, 05:53 AM

Ta! No vote registered.

joe87 · 5th May 2006, 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by andyandy

the guardian's bad science writer is pretty good for debunking such stuff....here's his article on homeopathy.....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...558417,00.html

if there were more guardian readers and less daily mail readers....the world would be a better place lol

This is an interesting article. It basically says that homeopathy only works because of the placebo effect. So what is the placebo effect? According to Wiki, it is

Quote:

the phenomenon that a patient's symptoms can be alleviated by an otherwise ineffective treatment, since the individual expects or believes that it will work.

So if you believe the placebo treatment will or may work, it may help you. If you don’t believe, it probably won’t. Further, if you believe it will hurt you, it may do so (this is called the nocebo effect).

From an FDA article, we have the following:

Quote:

Researchers have been studying the placebo effect for decades. In 1955, researcher H.K. Beecher published his groundbreaking paper "The Powerful Placebo," in which he concluded that, across the 26 studies he analyzed, an average of 32 percent of patients responded to placebo. In the 1960s, breakthrough studies showed the potential physiological effects of dummy pills--they tended to speed up pulse rate, increase blood pressure, and improve reaction speeds, for example, when participants were told they had taken a stimulant, and had the opposite physiological effects when participants were told they had taken a sleep-producing drug.

Quote:

"Expectation is a powerful thing," says Robert DeLap, M.D., head of one of the Food and Drug Administration's Offices of Drug Evaluation. "The more you believe you're going to benefit from a treatment, the more likely it is that you will experience a benefit."

I think that it would be beneficial to patients to be able to take advantage of the placebo effect, where possible. In addition to standard therapy, of course. In that situation is it ethical for a doctor to also prescribe a placebo while letting the patient think that he is prescribing an effective drug? Many doctors don’t think so, and don’t do it, but some will, if they think there is a good chance it will help the patient.

And is it ethical for a doctor to refer a patient to a homeopothist, knowing that the homeopothist will very likely conduct placebo therapy, which may help the patient if the patient believes it will? I suspect that many doctors do just that, rather than prescribe a placebo themselves.

So perhaps homeopathy has a place in medicine, for those who aren’t skeptical about it. Provided, of course, that the placebo is not substituted for conventional therapy, but is used in addition to it.

There is a catch 22, here, in that the more intelligent and knowledgeable (and skeptical) you are, the less likely you are to benefit from placebo therapy. Unless, of course, you can learn to harness whatever causes the placebo effect, and invoke it without benefit of an actual placebo, sort of like the mind-over-body control that buddhist monks in Tibet are supposed to have after a lifetime of meditation.

RationalVetMed · 5th May 2006, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus

Instead they cite 'quantum' effects or even 'local' effects, the claims for which are indistinguishable from magic.

Sorry, meant to say 'non-local' effects, ie/ according to some practitioners homoeopathy has an effect not limited to the 'locale' of the remedy; the presence of the practitioner or mere intent is sufficient.

See http://www.dr-walser.ch/magic_of_signs.pdf for a paper, written by a homoeopath, that seems to admit that controlled trials show little or no effect from homoeopathic remedies so it must work by magic instead. Well worth a read if you are interested in understanding the mind-set of these people.

Yuri.

John Jackson · 5th May 2006, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by joe87

I think that it would be beneficial to patients to be able to take advantage of the placebo effect, where possible. In addition to standard therapy, of course.

Placebo effects are induced by all treatments, not just bogus ones like homeopathy. So there's not a lot of point in prescribing it in addition to a conventional treatment as placebo effects will already be present.

Beth · 5th May 2006, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by joe87

There is a catch 22, here, in that the more intelligent and knowledgeable (and skeptical) you are, the less likely you are to benefit from placebo therapy.

This is an interesting statement. Do you have any cites or evidence for this? I'd be interested to learn that the placebo effect is inversely correlated with intelligence.

Mojo · 5th May 2006, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by John Jackson

Placebo effects are induced by all treatments, not just bogus ones like homeopathy. So there's not a lot of point in prescribing it in addition to a conventional treatment as placebo effects will already be present.

We just need to get proper doctors to pay their patients the same sort of attention that homoeopaths do.

joe87 · 5th May 2006, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by Beth

This is an interesting statement. Do you have any cites or evidence for this? I'd be interested to learn that the placebo effect is inversely correlated with intelligence.

I meant that it was positively correlated with belief in the efficacy of the placebo, which I infer would be inversely correlated with intelligence. I.e., if a person is smart enough to realize that, say, homeopathy is nonsense, then homeopathic therapy isn't going to work on that person.

joe87 · 5th May 2006, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by John Jackson

Placebo effects are induced by all treatments, not just bogus ones like homeopathy. So there's not a lot of point in prescribing it in addition to a conventional treatment as placebo effects will already be present.

That's true in some cases, but there are many situations where conventional treatment doesn't or can't really cure the problem. At the point where no additional conventional treatment is likely to be effective, additional placebo therapy may produce additional results. Placebo studies have shown that the placebo effect is stronger with therapies that the patient believes will work. There may be a lot of patients out there that are predisposed to believe in unconventional therapies (the woos and similar people, for example). These people may get more of a placebo effect out of unconventional therapies than they do out of standard therapy because they believe. Optimists live longer than pessimists, and credulous people may have the advantage in some situation over skeptics (I say this as a card-carrying skeptic, BTW).

steenkh · 6th May 2006, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by joe87

These people may get more of a placebo effect out of unconventional therapies than they do out of standard therapy because they believe. Optimists live longer than pessimists, and credulous people may have the advantage in some situation over skeptics (I say this as a card-carrying skeptic, BTW).

But conversely, card-carrying skeptics might get more out of conventional therapies in the same way: because they believe in them?

4th May 2006, 06:35 AM	#1
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 37,641	Another trial of homoeopathy The Bristol Homeopathic Hospital is carrying out another trial of homoeopathy. This time they're looking at children with severe asthma. I wonder what sort of blinding they'll be using. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1774 By the way, does anyone want to vote on the poll on that page? At the moment "yes" has 57%.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

4th May 2006, 06:50 AM	#2
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 37,641	There wasn't anything on the Homeopathic Hospital's page, but there is a press release on the United Bristol Healthcare NHS Trust main site. Quote: Children will be allocated to receive standard asthma care or standard asthma care plus homeopathy. All children will then be assessed once a month for four months. If allocated to receive homeopathy, the children will be seen at the Bristol Homeopathic Hospital by an experienced General Practitioner, who will spend time matching a tailor-made homeopathic medicine to each child. Families will be asked to keep daily diaries and fill in questionnaires to monitor each child’s progress. So no blinding, and no placebo for the control group, I guess.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

4th May 2006, 07:33 AM	#4
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 37,641	Originally Posted by Blue Wode Notice the completely uncritical mention of this: Quote: Research published last year in the Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine showed that 70 per cent of people with chronic illness reported improvements after homeopathic treatment. There are five NHS homeopathic hospitals in the UK. Which is totally debunked here: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Pharmacology/dc...ck.html#spence Well, it's essentially the same people doing the same sort of research. From the press release: Quote: The results of a six-year study at the Hospital showed that more than two thirds (70%) of patients with chronic disease reported positive health changes after homeopathic treatment. ... The most marked improvements were seen in children with asthma Elizabeth thompson, who is involved in the new study, was the second named auther of the study published last year.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

4th May 2006, 08:02 AM	#8
vbloke Disturbing shirts Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 717	voted and commented. It's the Daily Mail after all, hardly the most skeptical newspaper...
vbloke Disturbing shirts Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 717	__________________ http://intelligentdesignr.org.uk Who Is The intelligent designr? http://www.ukskeptics.com Skepticism in the UK

4th May 2006, 09:15 AM	#9
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 37,641	Originally Posted by vbloke voted and commented. John has a comment up, but no sign of yours yet. I see "no" is up to 70%!
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

4th May 2006, 07:02 AM	#3
Blue Wode Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,306	Notice the completely uncritical mention of this: Quote: Research published last year in the Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine showed that 70 per cent of people with chronic illness reported improvements after homeopathic treatment. There are five NHS homeopathic hospitals in the UK. Which is totally debunked here: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Pharmacology/dc...ck.html#spence

4th May 2006, 07:46 AM	#5
Blue Bubble Sharper than a thorn Join Date: May 2005 Location: Duxford, Cambridgeshire, UK Posts: 5,468	Originally Posted by Mojo The Bristol Homeopathic Hospital is carrying out another trial of homoeopathy. This time they're looking at children with severe asthma. I wonder what sort of blinding they'll be using. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1774 By the way, does anyone want to vote on the poll on that page? At the moment "yes" has 57%. It seems to let you vote as many times as you want ... Now it's 50/50

4th May 2006, 07:50 AM	#6
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 28,209	Originally Posted by Blue Bubble It seems to let you vote as many times as you want ... Now it's 50/50 Only if you have cookies switched off.

4th May 2006, 07:55 AM	#7
Blue Bubble Sharper than a thorn Join Date: May 2005 Location: Duxford, Cambridgeshire, UK Posts: 5,468	Originally Posted by geni Only if you have cookies switched off. Damned right I have cookies switched off !

4th May 2006, 09:26 AM	#10
Deetee Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 3,789	Voted and commented. 70% "no" - much better.
Deetee Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 3,789	__________________ "Reci bobu bob a popu pop." - Tanja "Everything is physics. This does not mean that physics is everything." - Cuddles "The entire practice of homeopathy can be substituted with the advice to "take two aspirins and call me in the morning." - Linda "Homeopathy: I never knew there was so little in it." - BSM

4th May 2006, 08:03 PM	#11
Eos of the Eons Mad Scientist Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 13,749	It's back down to 64%
	__________________ Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it!

4th May 2006, 08:44 PM	#12
clarsct Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 4,867	F'kin pisses me off. I have asthma, and it's nothing to fool around with. I wonder what'll happen if a patient dies....
clarsct Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 4,867

5th May 2006, 02:16 AM	#13
Aardvark Scholar Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 67	Originally Posted by clarsct F'kin pisses me off. I have asthma, and it's nothing to fool around with. I wonder what'll happen if a patient dies.... The homeopathy seems to be in addition to best pharmaceutical treatment. So we treat the patients as best we can using steroids, B receptor antagonists, antihistamines and then refer them to a nice homeopath who will spend hours with them and their relatives giving them the additional reasurance. In order to do a Placebo control at this level, we would need to refer the control group to a specialist Asthma nurse who will spend the same amount of time in gving reasurance and expalining how each medication will help them. In Cardiology trials compliance and responder rates improve significantly with weekly contact from a trial nurse, this even works when done over the telephone.
Aardvark Scholar Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 67

5th May 2006, 02:33 AM	#14
rats Muse Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 608	I wonder how much time and money is wasted on researching homeopathy, and providing it on the NHS… For a moment there I thought the Daily Mail had removed another poll with a result it didn’t approve of, but no, it was just me being blind! The result seems to be back to 70 % no. Thanks for the heads up. I don’t like clicking on their site, but sometimes it’s worth it.
rats Muse Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 608

5th May 2006, 02:36 AM	#15
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 37,641	Originally Posted by Aardvark In order to do a Placebo control at this level, we would need to refer the control group to a specialist Asthma nurse who will spend the same amount of time in gving reasurance and expalining how each medication will help them. Actually, all you need to do is to send both groups to the homoeopath, allow the homoeopath to do their thing and prescribe a remedy, and then have a third party give members of the verum group whatever remedy has been prescribed for them and the control group a placebo. This way everything is the same apart from the remedy.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

5th May 2006, 02:41 AM	#16
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,704	The Rolfe Protocol.
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,704

5th May 2006, 02:48 AM	#17
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 8,377	the guardian's bad science writer is pretty good for debunking such stuff....here's his article on homeopathy..... http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...558417,00.html if there were more guardian readers and less daily mail readers....the world would be a better place lol

5th May 2006, 02:49 AM	#18
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 37,641	Originally Posted by Zep The Rolfe Protocol. That's the one (although I'd rather not get lawyers invoved if we can help it...). Edited to add link.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky Last edited by Mojo; 5th May 2006 at 03:04 AM.

5th May 2006, 02:58 AM	#19
Dragon Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,639	Originally Posted by Zep The Rolfe Protocol. Book title? Anyway the vote is 71/29 now. I've sent a comment - not yet posted. The Daily Mail forum apparently has some sceptics - as in this thread.
Dragon Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,639

5th May 2006, 02:59 AM	#20
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 37,641	Originally Posted by andyandy the guardian's bad science writer is pretty good for debunking such stuff....here's his article on homeopathy..... http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...558417,00.html His columns about homoeopathy are archived here.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

5th May 2006, 03:23 AM	#21
rats Muse Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 608	Originally Posted by Dragon Book title? Anyway the vote is 71/29 now. I've sent a comment - not yet posted. The Daily Mail forum apparently has some sceptics - as in this thread. One of the many things that have annoyed me about homeopathy over the years is a rather poor grandmother posting me boxes of Oscillococcinum, depsite my objections, because she thought it was helpful. Have homeopathy pills ever actually been analysed? My knowledge of chemistry is rusty (to say the least!), but pointing at proof there's nothing there could be useful? Anyone want a box of Oscillococcinum?!
rats Muse Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 608

5th May 2006, 03:39 AM	#22
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 28,209	Originally Posted by rats Have homeopathy pills ever actually been analysed? Not to my knowlage. Remeber a full analasis would cost tens of thousands.

5th May 2006, 03:52 AM	#23
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,704	No need for analysis, really, They are all the same as sugar pillules that come out of the hundreds-and-thousands factory. [thinks...] You know, if we talk to the confectioners, we can make a fortune here! Bottle the different coloured H&T's so that all in one bottle are one colour, and call them "identified homeopathic remedies"! Easier to tell them apart!
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,704

5th May 2006, 04:07 AM	#24
Blue Wode Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,306	What I find most worrying is the high number of GPs who refer patients to homeopaths. Across the UK as a whole it’s 42%, with 86% of Scottish GPs said to be “in favour” of it. More here: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Pharmacology/dc...-sept-2005.pdf If studies such as those done by the Bristol Homeopathic Hospital are taken at face value by busy GPs, then these numbers are bound to rise. It’s all so irresponsible.

5th May 2006, 04:09 AM	#25
RationalVetMed Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,467	Originally Posted by rats Have homeopathy pills ever actually been analysed? My knowledge of chemistry is rusty (to say the least!), but pointing at proof there's nothing there could be useful? Most homoeopaths these days wouldn't claim that there was any chemical difference between homoeopathic remedies and the base tablet or medicine, Avogadro's law is too well known. Instead they cite 'quantum' effects or even 'local' effects, the claims for which are indistinguishable from magic. This local effect has been used to excuse results of homoeopathy trials in the past which have failed to distinguish between remedies and placebo where the explanation is that the 'intention' of the practitioner to treat is enough to effect a result, regardless of whether the verum remedy was given or not. When you're up against this sort of post-hoc rationalisation you really can't win. Yuri
	__________________ Visit rationalvetmed.net and rationalvetmed.org - because nothing is as good as homeopathy... 'No Way to Treat a Friend: Lifting the Lid on Complementary and Alternative Veterinary Medicine' book now available to order.

5th May 2006, 04:09 AM	#26
rats Muse Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 608	Originally Posted by geni Not to my knowlage. Remeber a full analasis would cost tens of thousands. and more waste of resources... Good point. Originally Posted by Zep You know, if we talk to the confectioners, we can make a fortune here! Bottle the different coloured H&T's so that all in one bottle are one colour, and call them "identified homeopathic remedies"! Easier to tell them apart! I guess the colour white has more of an association with medicine. Grr.
rats Muse Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 608

5th May 2006, 04:15 AM	#27
rats Muse Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 608	Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus Most homoeopaths these days wouldn't claim that there was any chemical difference between homoeopathic remedies and the base tablet or medicine, Avogadro's law is too well known. I didn’t realise that. It’s all utterly crazy! Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus When you're up against this sort of post-hoc rationalisation you really can't win. Hence homeopathy = woo
rats Muse Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 608

5th May 2006, 04:26 AM	#28
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 37,641	Originally Posted by rats I guess the colour white has more of an association with medicine. Grr. Not necessarily, at least for certain types of medication: http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte.../313/7072/1624 I'm sure I've also seen claims that placebos of certain colours have more of an effect than other colours, but I can't find anything at the moment.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

5th May 2006, 04:48 AM	#29
rats Muse Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 608	Originally Posted by Mojo Not necessarily, at least for certain types of medication: http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte.../313/7072/1624 That’s one of the great things about this forum. You post a hypothesis, then someone replies with an interesting link providing evidence against it Thanks. Though I wonder whether culture has a significant effect. Originally Posted by Mojo I'm sure I've also seen claims that placebos of certain colours have more of an effect than other colours, but I can't find anything at the moment. Perhaps this is what Renee Rynn was on about?
rats Muse Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 608

5th May 2006, 04:55 AM	#30
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,704	I give in! Where the heck is that poll on that page???
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,704

5th May 2006, 05:10 AM	#31
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 37,641	Originally Posted by Zep I give in! Where the heck is that poll on that page??? They've replaced it with one about body mass index, and moved it to their "polls" page. Click on "More Polls >>" (under "Have your say"), and it's the 4th one down in their 10 most recent polls.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

5th May 2006, 05:53 AM	#32
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,704	Ta! No vote registered.
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,704

5th May 2006, 07:32 AM	#33
joe87 Scholar Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 89	Originally Posted by andyandy the guardian's bad science writer is pretty good for debunking such stuff....here's his article on homeopathy..... http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...558417,00.html if there were more guardian readers and less daily mail readers....the world would be a better place lol This is an interesting article. It basically says that homeopathy only works because of the placebo effect. So what is the placebo effect? According to Wiki, it is Quote: the phenomenon that a patient's symptoms can be alleviated by an otherwise ineffective treatment, since the individual expects or believes that it will work. So if you believe the placebo treatment will or may work, it may help you. If you don’t believe, it probably won’t. Further, if you believe it will hurt you, it may do so (this is called the nocebo effect). From an FDA article, we have the following: Quote: Researchers have been studying the placebo effect for decades. In 1955, researcher H.K. Beecher published his groundbreaking paper "The Powerful Placebo," in which he concluded that, across the 26 studies he analyzed, an average of 32 percent of patients responded to placebo. In the 1960s, breakthrough studies showed the potential physiological effects of dummy pills--they tended to speed up pulse rate, increase blood pressure, and improve reaction speeds, for example, when participants were told they had taken a stimulant, and had the opposite physiological effects when participants were told they had taken a sleep-producing drug. Quote: "Expectation is a powerful thing," says Robert DeLap, M.D., head of one of the Food and Drug Administration's Offices of Drug Evaluation. "The more you believe you're going to benefit from a treatment, the more likely it is that you will experience a benefit." I think that it would be beneficial to patients to be able to take advantage of the placebo effect, where possible. In addition to standard therapy, of course. In that situation is it ethical for a doctor to also prescribe a placebo while letting the patient think that he is prescribing an effective drug? Many doctors don’t think so, and don’t do it, but some will, if they think there is a good chance it will help the patient. And is it ethical for a doctor to refer a patient to a homeopothist, knowing that the homeopothist will very likely conduct placebo therapy, which may help the patient if the patient believes it will? I suspect that many doctors do just that, rather than prescribe a placebo themselves. So perhaps homeopathy has a place in medicine, for those who aren’t skeptical about it. Provided, of course, that the placebo is not substituted for conventional therapy, but is used in addition to it. There is a catch 22, here, in that the more intelligent and knowledgeable (and skeptical) you are, the less likely you are to benefit from placebo therapy. Unless, of course, you can learn to harness whatever causes the placebo effect, and invoke it without benefit of an actual placebo, sort of like the mind-over-body control that buddhist monks in Tibet are supposed to have after a lifetime of meditation.
joe87 Scholar Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 89

5th May 2006, 09:08 AM	#34
RationalVetMed Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,467	Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus Instead they cite 'quantum' effects or even 'local' effects, the claims for which are indistinguishable from magic. Sorry, meant to say 'non-local' effects, ie/ according to some practitioners homoeopathy has an effect not limited to the 'locale' of the remedy; the presence of the practitioner or mere intent is sufficient. See http://www.dr-walser.ch/magic_of_signs.pdf for a paper, written by a homoeopath, that seems to admit that controlled trials show little or no effect from homoeopathic remedies so it must work by magic instead. Well worth a read if you are interested in understanding the mind-set of these people. Yuri.
	__________________ Visit rationalvetmed.net and rationalvetmed.org - because nothing is as good as homeopathy... 'No Way to Treat a Friend: Lifting the Lid on Complementary and Alternative Veterinary Medicine' book now available to order.

5th May 2006, 09:26 AM	#35
John Jackson Muse Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 664	Originally Posted by joe87 I think that it would be beneficial to patients to be able to take advantage of the placebo effect, where possible. In addition to standard therapy, of course. Placebo effects are induced by all treatments, not just bogus ones like homeopathy. So there's not a lot of point in prescribing it in addition to a conventional treatment as placebo effects will already be present.
John Jackson Muse Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 664	__________________