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Palestinian Referendum - Demands Israel Go Back to 1949 Cease-Fire Lines

webfusion

Philosopher
webfusion
Joined
Nov 16, 2004
Messages
9,757
Poll: 80% of Palestinian public supports plan drafted by jailed Palestinians (Itim)

aka -- The (Barghouti) Hadarim Plan.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3254797,00.html

400 Fatah supporters protest in Gaza streets, demanding acceptance of prisoners' peace plan (AP)

President Abbas is saying he'll go ahead with a 'referendum' in ten days.
There are, naturally, some key impediments in his way...
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/720276.html
Hamas rejects a 10-day deadline set by Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas.


Is this really a case of the Palestinians taking a vote on a plan declaring:
"the sky should be yellow"?
 
Bahahahaha!

I took a referendum in my living room. By an overwhelming vote it was decided that the Jets should win the Superbowl. I'll be forwarding the results of this referendum to the Commissioner's Office for immediate action.
 
That's so odd! I had a referendum as well and there was a unanimous vote to have all Palestinians pay a $50.00 monthly tribute to my greatness. I suppose that's why they call May "Pointless Referendum Month!"
 
holding our breath

bob, by last count, the palestinians do not even have the $50.00, collectively!


(eta --- contribution just came in from Indonesia, there is now $251K available.)

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=24762
A group of Islamic politicians and activists handed Palestinian Foreign Minister Mahmoud Zahhar $251,000 in cash to make up for the shortfall in the authority's budget. The money was raised during a series of recent street rallies.

For the record, the President of Indonesia is named Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono. FWIW.
 
great news, bob

Well, here it is, June 15th, and the HAMAS is preparing to arrange transfer the payment to Bob Kark for his greatness --
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/726919.html

Palestinian Foreign Minister Mahmoud al-Zahar, who has been seeking to raise money for the financially strapped government, returned to the Gaza Strip on Wednesday with suitcases full of $20-million cash, Palestinians officials said.


Ka-ching.
This is pretty good for the Palestinian municipal employees, who only yesterday had stormed into the Parliament building in Ramallah, disrupting the proceedings and demanding their back pay.

This is also pretty good for the HAMAS army/militia which is to be incorporated within the Fatah "police" and the whole kit and kaboodle can get their salaries.

This is excellent for everyone, including the Israeli companies that are owned countless millions by the Palestinians for various services and goods (such as fuel and electricity and flour and za'atar).
 
Finally! These guys really need to get their act together. My next payment is almost due!
 
Well, you can't win if you're Palestine, I guess.

Normally, the cheerleaders whine that Palestinians won't accept a two-state solution. (Oddly, these folks never seem to recall that the former ruling Party, Likud, explicitely rejects a Palestinian state as part of its platform.)

Of course, if the Palestinians accept a two-state solution, as they are doing in this referendum, "they want too much!" (How dare they ask Israel to give up occupied land!)

I guess the only thing Palestinians can do right is die, leave, or peacefully give up their rights.
 
why the negativity on this thread?

It's positive news.....

jeez....
 
I fall in the middle here, to take a position that the 1949 lines is the natural border ignores 55 years of history and actions on the ground, and will never be acceptable to even the most peace-wanting Israeli.

That noted, if the referendum does show that there is a large majority for a "two-state" solution, it will put the pressure on Hamas (which is why I think they are fighting so hard against it) to recognize Israel and negotiate, which means that they have to start behaving as politicians, not a radicals, with the same expectations one has for their political leadership (something they are finding hard to swallow right now, IMHO)

It all depends--if the referendum is seen as a "no change" position or the beginning of a negotiation. We shall see.
 
Cleon said:
Well, you can't win if you're Palestine, I guess.

Normally, the cheerleaders whine that Palestinians won't accept a two-state solution. (Oddly, these folks never seem to recall that the former ruling Party, Likud, explicitely rejects a Palestinian state as part of its platform.)

Of course, if the Palestinians accept a two-state solution, as they are doing in this referendum, "they want too much!" (How dare they ask Israel to give up occupied land!)

I guess the only thing Palestinians can do right is die, leave, or peacefully give up their rights.
Click to expand...

When Arafat goes around floating ideas like the "staged plan" which says they're going to negotiate for whatever they can get, then continue struggling until Israel is gone, it's impossible to take anything as a positive sign.

However you do make a valid point. While the specific details may not be acceptable to most, it is a step forward.
 
That's not what this document envisions ---

Of course, ... Palestinians accept a two-state solution, as they are doing in this referendum, "they want too much"
Click to expand...

I read the entire document. I feel it is so important to expose the lie of this referendum, that I've put a link to the Hadarim farce in my signature here on JREF.

It makes no mention of a two state solution.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=22782
The plan does not limit Palestinian claims, nor does it reject violence, either within pre-1967 Israel or elsewhere.

It refers to a long-forgotten1948 UN Resolution #194 which has since been rendered obsolete by the events of history. If that is the entire 'basis' for implicit recognition of Israel -- well, no thanks, we don't need any implementation by the UN in 2006 for some weird proposals that were cooked-up back in 1948!!!

Also, the HAMAS signatory to this piece of toilet-paper has now renounced his personal support (and his party leaders have told the Fatah to wipe their a&& with it, as well).
The individual in question, one Sheik Abdel Khaliq al-Natsche, is currently in an Israeli prison serving time for funnelling charitable contributions into the military wing of HAMAS (for bombs and other brutal efforts to kill jews).

The other brilliant tacticians who came up with this bogus 'peace plan' -----
* Marwan Barghouti, Fatah-Tanzim leader, is serving five life sentences for coordinating attacks which left five Israelis dead;

* Sheikh Bassam al-Saadi led Palestinian Islamic Jihad -- Jenin branch;

* Abdel Rahim Malouh, formerly No. 2 in the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, helped plan the murder of Israeli tourism minister Rehavam Zeevi;

* Mustafa Badarne recruited dozens of Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine members to attack Israeli soldiers and civilians.

Don't let your local media whitewash this Palestinian effort to force Israel back to some imaginary 1949 Lines. It is vital to recognize what the plan actually says and who wrote it, not what some wrongly believe might be "implied."
(as many are calling it -- "implicit recognition of Israel")
 
webfusion said:
I read the entire document. I feel it is so important to expose the lie of this referendum, that I've put a link to the Hadarim farce in my signature here on JREF.

It makes no mention of a two state solution.
Click to expand...
Wow, that's disengenuous. Calling on Israel to withdraw to 48 borders isn't a two-state solution?

ETA, from the document itself:

[SIZE=-1][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]the Palestinian people in the homeland and in the Diaspora seek to liberate their land and to achieve their right in freedom, return and independence and to exercise their right in self determination, including the right to establish their independent state with al-Quds al-Shareef as its capital on all territories occupied in 1967 and to secure the right of return for the refugees and to liberate all prisoners and detainees based on the historical right of our people on the land of the fathers and grandfathers and based on the UN Charter and the international law and international legitimacy.
Click to expand...


Emphasis mine. So it does call for an explicit two-state solution. Huh.
[/FONT][/SIZE]
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=22782
Click to expand...
For starters, perhaps you can try to find a media source that isn't completely nucking futs. Front Page Magazine is a shameless propaganda site. It's not even good propaganda.

The plan does not limit Palestinian claims, nor does it reject violence, either within pre-1967 Israel or elsewhere.
Click to expand...
Right. Only the Palestinians are obligated to reject violence.

Don't let your local media whitewash this Palestinian effort to force Israel back to some imaginary 1949 Lines. It is vital to recognize what the plan actually says and who wrote it, not what some wrongly believe might be "implied."
(as many are calling it -- "implicit recognition of Israel")
Click to expand...
Right. Remember the Party Line! Palestinians are evil and want to kill everyone! Anything else is incorrect.
 
Emphasis mine. So it does call for an explicit two-state solution. Huh.
Click to expand...

Nope.
It refers to the capital, al-Quds al-Shareef, needing to be established on all the lands wrested away FROM JORDAN in 1967.

That is what the sentence says.
In context, the Palestinians mean that they want Israel to relinquish the Harem Al-Shareef and the Old City.

Let 'em negotiate for it. I have no problem with that.
However, sending more suicide bombers into the heart of Israeli cities as a show of 'resisting the occupation' will get them nowhere.

Actually, it will get them less than nowhere.

Bring on the referendum. It is meaningless, without good intentions on the part of HAMAS.
Which is lacking, huh?
 
Cleon said:
Of course, if the Palestinians accept a two-state solution, as they are doing in this referendum,...
Click to expand...

You haven't read it, did you?

There isn't a word in the referedum about accepting, let alone peace with, israel. On the contrary: the referendum explicitly, and many times, says that all it is speaking of is return to the 49 armstice lines *now*, only as a *starting point* for further "negotiations", and in particular *without* the Palestinians giving up the so-called "right of return", (e.g., the demographic destruction of israel)--which is mentioned as an inaliniable right even after the withdrawal, and the continued insistence on it is stressed four or five times in this "peaceful" document.

Nor do the Palestinians give up the "right" to kill and terrorize jews--the referendum only speaks on *currently* only using that "right" in the territories, with the full understanding that it could later be used against israel proper--if israel, for instance, does not accept the "inalianable right of return" and agrees to be destroyed peacefully. This, incidentally, amounts to official PA support of terrorism, a direct violation of the Oslo accords (unofficially, of course, they had been supporting terrorism since their establishment.)

This isn't a referendum on the two-state solution; it's merely a referendum on the old "stage plan" for israel's destruction by terror and demographics--since 1974 the official PLO policy, to say nothing of Hamas, etc. 80% of the Palestinians are for that; the other 20% are for a non-staged destruction of israel.

But, of course, officially setting out this old plan for genocide by stages is considered "peace" and "acceptance of israel" by the usual useful idiots.
 
webfusion said:
Nope.
Click to expand...

Yep. You're trying to dance around it, but it's pretty obvious.

It refers to the capital, al-Quds al-Shareef, needing to be established on all the lands wrested away FROM JORDAN in 1967.

That is what the sentence says.
Click to expand...

Which is...A two-state solution. Their call for the "right to establish an independent state...[SIZE=-1][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]on all territories occupied in 1967" is an explicit call for a two-state solution.[/FONT][/SIZE]

In context, the Palestinians mean that they want Israel to relinquish the Harem Al-Shareef and the Old City.
Click to expand...

Which has absolutely nothing to do with a one-state or two-state solution.
 
Skeptic said:
This isn't a referendum on the two-state solution; it's merely a referendum on the old "stage plan" for israel's destruction by terror and demographics--since 1974 the official PLO policy, to say nothing of Hamas, etc. 80% of the Palestinians are for that; the other 20% are for a non-staged destruction of israel.
Click to expand...

So they call for a two-state solution, but Skeptic the Psychic has declared that even a two-state solution is just a "stage plan" for "israel's destruction." So even a two-state solution isn't good enough.

Which just goes to show that the only thing Palestinians can do right is die, leave, or accept the fact that they have no rights.


As for the "destruction by demographics" bit, that's just racist codswallop. If Israel was truly the democracy its cheerleaders claim it is, they shouldn't care what ethnic group has a majority.
 
Cleon said:
So they call for a two-state solution, but Skeptic the Psychic has declared that even a two-state solution is just a "stage plan" for "israel's destruction." So even a two-state solution isn't good enough.
Click to expand...

No, they call for a "two-state solution" as a FIRST STEP in continued negotiations that will not actually bring "peace" UNLESS the "right of return"-e.g., the destruction of israel--is also implemented at a later stage. The "inalinable right of return" is mentioned four or five times in the document, and its implementation--i.e., israel's destruction--is repeatedly given as the sina qua non of any "peace" agreement.

More generally, and rather typically, the document speaks ONLY of what the Palestinians will take from the israelies, either now (the post-67 land) or later (the rest of it, through the "right of return"). There is nothing there--nothing at all--about recognition, let alone peace with, israel.

That's the "stage plan" for israel's destruction, Cleon. It's in the document. That you close your eyes and refuse to see what this "peace" plan really (and rather obviously) means, hardly makes it a "psychic" feat to point out the obvious, although it probably would take a supernatural power of some sort to open your eyes to it.
 
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