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Tags part 3 , loose change , 911 conspiracy theory

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Old 25th June 2006, 05:12 AM   #521
Argumemnon
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Originally Posted by Pardalis View Post
Keep bending over Belz...

Bonne St-Jean.
Well exccuuuuuuse ME for wanting people to get along.

And no thanks. People's pyromaniac tendencies don't interest me
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Old 25th June 2006, 07:36 AM   #522
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MarkyX has got some nerve insulting my people the day of our national holiday.

If you don't mind it Belz, it's all good. I FOR ONE WON'T STAND FOR IT.

@MarkyX: I'm from Montréal and I don't believe any of the CT's, I think the United States is a great country and I don't think Québec is better than Canada.

So your opinion about Quebecers is complete rubbish and very distastefull.

Not a nice way to make friends.
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Old 25th June 2006, 07:54 AM   #523
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Originally Posted by Pardalis View Post
MarkyX has got some nerve insulting my people the day of our national holiday.

If you don't mind it Belz, it's all good. I FOR ONE WON'T STAND FOR IT.

@MarkyX: I'm from Montréal and I don't believe any of the CT's, I think the United States is a great country and I don't think Québec is better than Canada.

So your opinion about Quebecers is complete rubbish and very distastefull.

Not a nice way to make friends.
I was born from quebec and there is a damn good reason why my family decided to move to Ontario.

I've been back there several times in the past but refuse to go there even though my relatives are there. Insults and snobs are just a few choice words to describe when I suddenly start speaking english instead of french.
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Old 25th June 2006, 07:59 AM   #524
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I'm sure you're blowing things out of proportions Marky.

If I went to Alberta and spoke only French, how would people react you think? Do you know the expression "French bashing?"
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Old 25th June 2006, 08:13 AM   #525
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Originally Posted by Sal The Butcher View Post
i type very fast (but not the method where you rest your fingers on teh j and f) and when i use the shift key i tend to make EVEN MORE type-os then i normally do, and i see no need to utilize punctuation as long as what i type can be deciphered without additional effort, forums (at least i believe) are about content, not presentation, so i focus on trying to explain something in a way that people can tell what im talking about, i actually have a decent grasp of grammar and punctuation, and can write quite well, but the more time i spend trying to figure out how to gramatically structure my thoughts the less i manage to relay
No offense, but that's rationalizing your laziness. What you're really saying is that your words--no check that, your thoughts--are so important that you can't be bothered to organize them in a coherent fashion. That's not writing, that's typing (poorly of course).

Your unwillingness to learn touch-typing is symptomatic of this laziness. It should be obvious that you cannot type as fast with the hunt and peck method as you can with touch-typing. Yes, it's a little slower at first, but as you get the hang of it, you will be able to impart more truth (and less trtuh) to more people. Once you've got that down, think about rewriting to sharpen your arguments.

I don't want to over-generalize here, but this seems to be one of the frequent problems with the Loosers. Their time is too important to bother with details, so when somebody shows up to point out flaws in the movie, the response is "Talk to me when you've seen all the other videos at Universal Seed". It's the quantity versus quality argument you allude to with the bit about "the more time i (sic) spend trying to figure out how to gramatically (sic) structure my thoughts the less i (sic) manage to relay".

Debating is a difficult process. It requires research, analysis, preparation and organization. If you skip any of those steps, you might as well show up to a gunfight with a butter knife.
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Old 25th June 2006, 08:34 AM   #526
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Debating is a difficult process. It requires research, analysis, preparation and organization. If you skip any of those steps, you might as well show up to a gunfight with a butter knife.
Or he could start his own internet "radio" show. There's always that.
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Old 25th June 2006, 08:42 AM   #527
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
I hadn't been to Ground Zero at night recently, so I stopped by after the screening tonight. Lots of activity there, which is encouraging. There was a time last year when I gave tours there every single day for five months and never saw a single worker at Ground Zero. And that's a HUGE area. They're two years behind schedule there.
Gravy, what do you and the other NYC'ers here think of the plans for GZ? I've been following the whole thing since the outset (mostly with disgust, I'm sad to say), and I'm not optimistic that what they're planning to do there is going to end up satisfying anyone.

As for WTC7....I thought the picture looked kinda cool actually, but I'll reserve judgement until I see it in person. The steel blast protection looks like *****.

It's funny... I was at GZ a few years ago and walked the perimeter of the site. Walked right up in front of the new WTC7. At the time I had NO IDEA about the WTC7 controversy and that I'd be debating it with a bunch of lunatics a few years later. I wish I had known more about what I was looking at at the time.
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Old 25th June 2006, 08:46 AM   #528
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Edit: sorry, removed the hotlink. Forgot the rules for a sec.

Source: http://www.sondrak.com/index.php/web...heres_my_pony/
Attached Images
File Type: jpg bushboard2.jpg (127.4 KB, 70 views)
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Last edited by dubfan; 25th June 2006 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 25th June 2006, 08:50 AM   #529
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Originally Posted by dubfan View Post
Thanks dubfan, that just made my day.

Let's spend bilions, risk getting caught, risk failure, to sieze oil that we simply could have purchased in the first place.
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Last edited by RandFan; 25th June 2006 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 25th June 2006, 09:05 AM   #530
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Originally Posted by dubfan View Post
Edit: sorry, removed the hotlink. Forgot the rules for a sec.

Source: http://www.sondrak.com/index.php/web...heres_my_pony/
That's a Filibuster Cartoon. IIRC the artist is Canadian as well (since the Great White North seems to be the subtopic of the day).
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Old 25th June 2006, 09:08 AM   #531
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
That's a Filibuster Cartoon. IIRC the artist is Canadian as well (since the Great White North seems to be the subtopic of the day).
Ooh, thank you, I didn't know that.

It looks like the original source is actually here: http://www.filibustercartoons.com/ar...hp?id=20060619
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Old 25th June 2006, 09:25 AM   #532
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wow, this is a great site. I love his humour, and his drawing.

I like this one especially. http://www.filibustercartoons.com/ar...hp?id=20060513
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Old 25th June 2006, 09:33 AM   #533
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By the way, in case anyone didn't know, JREF users "Brainster" and "JamesB" are the brains behind the Screw Loose Change blog. They seem rather unexplainably modest about this, but they deserve a plug, because their blog is hilarious and smart and the source of hours of 9/11 CT entertainment. I hadn't visited in a while and read some of the posts this morning, and other JREF'ers might appreciate a reminder to visit over there, too, periodically.
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Old 25th June 2006, 09:41 AM   #534
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Originally Posted by dubfan View Post
By the way, in case anyone didn't know, JREF users "Brainster" and "JamesB" are the brains behind the Screw Loose Change blog. They seem rather unexplainably modest about this, but they deserve a plug, because their blog is hilarious and smart and the source of hours of 9/11 CT entertainment. I hadn't visited in a while and read some of the posts this morning, and other JREF'ers might appreciate a reminder to visit over there, too, periodically.
From the Blog,

Quote:
Yeah, OK. Obviously Specialist Rowe didn't learn anything when he was assaulting with the first wave into Afghanistan. A Javelin, which looks even less like a Boeing 767 than a cruise missile does, has a shaped charge warhead of all of 8.5KG, and would not punch a 90 foot wide hole in the side of the Pentagon, and continue through 3 rings of the Pentagon while dispersing airplane parts, much less cause a huge fireball billowing into the air.
"While dispersing airplane parts" That's rich.
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Old 25th June 2006, 09:53 AM   #535
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Originally Posted by Pardalis View Post
wow, this is a great site. I love his humour, and his drawing.

I like this one especially. http://www.filibustercartoons.com/ar...hp?id=20060513
Been his follower for years now. COnservative BC cartoonist and had a few exchanges with him before when he mocked Ontario voters (we are not all dumb!). His cartoons are a random hit or miss.

Strangely enough, I find his articles on Canada much more informative and educational than my high school
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Old 25th June 2006, 10:13 AM   #536
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Thanks. That is the first time anyone has ever called me "modest". It usually goes something along the lines of, "Shut the %^#@ up you arrogant @#$!"
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Old 25th June 2006, 10:43 AM   #537
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Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
Been his follower for years now. COnservative BC cartoonist and had a few exchanges with him before when he mocked Ontario voters (we are not all dumb!). His cartoons are a random hit or miss.

Strangely enough, I find his articles on Canada much more informative and educational than my high school
His guide to Canada is not bad, of course I don't completely agree with his views on Québec, but that's expected

I don't mind being mocked at from time to time, as long as it's well intentioned.
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Old 25th June 2006, 11:11 AM   #538
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Originally Posted by dubfan View Post
By the way, in case anyone didn't know, JREF users "Brainster" and "JamesB" are the brains behind the Screw Loose Change blog. They seem rather unexplainably modest about this, but they deserve a plug, because their blog is hilarious and smart and the source of hours of 9/11 CT entertainment. I hadn't visited in a while and read some of the posts this morning, and other JREF'ers might appreciate a reminder to visit over there, too, periodically.
Thanks, we get some of our best material from this forum and its members.

Just thought I'd provide a little explanation on my nick; it's not intended as a boast about cranial capacity. I posted for years on Usenet with the somewhat more self-deprecating nickname of Brain Death (long story), so when I started blogging I tried to create the Brain Death blogspot, but was dismayed to find it already taken. So I decided to call my main blog (mostly center-right politics and sports) "Brainster" a la the Saturday Night Live character who did riffs on names, calling Mike, "The Mikester! Mikaroonius!"
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Old 25th June 2006, 11:34 AM   #539
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Thanks, we get some of our best material from this forum and its members.
Funny you should say that. You'd think that after our 3 monster Loose Change threads (with, what, 150,000+ views and hundreds of pages, and who knows how many contributors and subsidiary threads) that JREF would've exhausted all the possibilities for stupidity that that silly video had to offer. After following this thread for two months, I thought I'd seen it all.

But your blog shows that, as much stupidity as you think is present in Loose Change, there's always more to discover. It's like a bottomless pit of stupidity. Its depths can never be fully plumbed.
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Old 25th June 2006, 11:55 AM   #540
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So true, as Allahpundit on Hotair said, during our first couple of weeks of blogging:

Quote:
The first rule of blogging is to choose a subject that will supply you with an endless source of material to criticize. Mission accomplished, boys.

Popular Mechanics has already traveled this road, of course, but as you can see from the Google Video top twenty, there’s no shortage of patriotic dissidents who need reminding.
http://hotair.com/archives/the-blog/...cts-and-logic/
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Old 25th June 2006, 12:10 PM   #541
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These guys crack me up. We have been arguing for years that it would be impossible to wire the buildings with explosives, since the crashing airplane would screw things up. So now a CTer uses this idea, as an argument that THERE WERE NO PLANES!

Quote:
Quote:
(c1team @ Jun 25 2006, 05:59 PM)
If you really think about it, it's so much harder to CGI/bluescreen w/e then to either switch/remote control some planes into a building. If your gonna kill some people and do series damage why bring hollywood into it? Also stupid to think that since more video was taken of the second strike then the first and to say it was CGI.

The basic fact is, whoever is doing this is going to use some real ****. Were talking about a WORLD EVENT!

Killtown, I'm sure your a real good guy but you need to lose your tunnel vision of no planers.
Did you ever stop to think that if they crashed a real 767 into the tower that they wouldn't be able to demo the exact floor they wanted to because the 767 would ruin their placements of the explosives?

What's my "tunnel vision", the truth?
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...showtopic=6919

I swear, if any of them actually had to put together a coherent theory their collective heads would explode.
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Old 25th June 2006, 12:18 PM   #542
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You could have a blog just about Killtown. I love that guy's posts.

I wonder if he's a troll, or if he really believes all the crap he says.
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Old 25th June 2006, 12:24 PM   #543
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You just have to love their thought process: "If it is impossible for there to be both a plane crash and explosives, the logical conclusion must be there was no plane crash!"
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Old 25th June 2006, 12:25 PM   #544
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Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
I was born from quebec and there is a damn good reason why my family decided to move to Ontario.

I've been back there several times in the past but refuse to go there even though my relatives are there. Insults and snobs are just a few choice words to describe when I suddenly start speaking english instead of french.
Yeah, people here DO tend to look down at people when they speak other languages.

And they say French people are beign discriminated against.

Hatred is a double-edged sword.
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Old 25th June 2006, 12:35 PM   #545
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I mearly enquired about a logical fallacy. I wasn't the one who brought up that whole debate.

ETA: Now let's keep the discussion about Loose Change and the CTs shall we?
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Old 25th June 2006, 12:45 PM   #546
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Originally Posted by dubfan View Post
You could have a blog just about Killtown. I love that guy's posts.

I wonder if he's a troll, or if he really believes all the crap he says.
He was cited in the "Thanks to:" section at the end of Loose Change 2nd Edition and he is a moderator (or at least he was).

His posts are a riot. He claims there is no true amatuer footage of the plane hitting the second tower, and when people post links to amatuer footage, he says CGI'd or that it's amatuer, but not "truly amatuer".

EDIT: Almost forgot about his claims of explosives and/or cutting charges blowing the plane shaped hole in the sides of the WTC. His evidence is that both planes hit at the same angles.

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Old 25th June 2006, 12:51 PM   #547
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Jeebus, they can't even get the flight numbers right.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...showtopic=6917

Quote:
1,200 La Conf. Shown The Fakery Of Flt 165, ....and many "got it"
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Old 25th June 2006, 12:55 PM   #548
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What bothers me, is not only will regular people easily believe Loose Change without thinking the film's propositions through, they don't even bother finding out who the filmmakers are and what else they are saying.
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Old 25th June 2006, 01:00 PM   #549
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Originally Posted by dubfan View Post
Funny you should say that. You'd think that after our 3 monster Loose Change threads (with, what, 150,000+ views and hundreds of pages, and who knows how many contributors and subsidiary threads) that JREF would've exhausted all the possibilities for stupidity that that silly video had to offer. After following this thread for two months, I thought I'd seen it all.

But your blog shows that, as much stupidity as you think is present in Loose Change, there's always more to discover. It's like a bottomless pit of stupidity. Its depths can never be fully plumbed.
Well, that is, until the final cut comes out, when everything will be absolutely perfect, all those niggling little errors that Gravy and the rest of us have used to poke holes in the film will be fixed and everybody will be forced to acknowledge the "Truth".

But seriously, these folks are only beginning their descent into decades of madness. As you know, Fetzer's a major JFK nut as well as a Truther, and he's always been able to come up with some spectacular new theory to sell his latest book. In 1998 he was claiming that Zapruder was a CIA man and the film was a hoax. There will always be a new dot to be connected, a new technology to be retroactively fit into the story, a new person implicated in the conspiracy or the coverup.
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Old 25th June 2006, 01:07 PM   #550
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Fetzer is my newest favorite loon. One could dedicate an entire blog to him too. My favorite is where he claims Halliburton got a $500 million contract to build concentration camps in the US, most likely on closed military bases.

And if that weren't bad enough, they were importing Chinese made guillotines to use in this camps.

I am not sure whether he was more upset with the guillotines, or the fact that they were made in China. What is wrong with US made guillotines after all! Don't we make anything in this country anymore? WalMart must be behind it somehow.
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Old 25th June 2006, 01:10 PM   #551
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I was wondering, these people are asking for an independant international investigation, right? So:

whom are they asking this to? So far, as far as I know, they just raised questions and asked no one and no institutions directly

Who should have the authority to start such an investigation?
Who is supposed to assemble the team of experts? The UN council? They can't even decide what to do with Sudan.

Who will pay for such an investigation?

At wich point the investigation should end? Are they asking to investigate their theories, or just the events that took place?

I'm starting to think they don't even want an other investigation because they know their demands are impossible.
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Old 25th June 2006, 01:13 PM   #552
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Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
I am not sure whether he was more upset with the guillotines, or the fact that they were made in China. What is wrong with US made guillotines after all! Don't we make anything in this country anymore? WalMart must be behind it somehow.
It's not like a guillotine is an especially difficult aparatus to assemble and construct. Why would they need to import Chinese ones?

ETA: And why would they need guillotines when they got guns? lol
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Old 25th June 2006, 01:20 PM   #553
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Can someone check my maths and logic in this thread to make sure I'm not digging myself some kind of illogical maths hole?

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...pic=6884&st=30

I'm Jonathan Picture-Elements, I've not worked out how to link to individual posts on there yet.
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Old 25th June 2006, 01:32 PM   #554
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Originally Posted by dubfan View Post
Gravy, what do you and the other NYC'ers here think of the plans for GZ? I've been following the whole thing since the outset (mostly with disgust, I'm sad to say), and I'm not optimistic that what they're planning to do there is going to end up satisfying anyone.
Exactly. Whatever they do – or don't do –*at Ground Zero, it's going to piss off a lot of people. I wish they would leave the area as a memorial (except for WTC 7, which is off to the side). The result is going to be a strange mix:

Quote:
Holy ground...with shopping!
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Freedom Tower: feeling lucky?
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The New Ground Zero: because nothing says "respect for the dead" like a few million square feet of back-office space for brokerage houses.
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The World Trade Center has always been a great place to do business! Our detractors like to harp on the fact that we've had some terrorist setbacks. We prefer to think of them as terrorist opportunities. Here's something to consider. While at its operational peak, the World Trade Center hosted over 150,000 workers and visitors per work day. Yet on average, we lose only 81 people per year to terrorism! That's right, more people die from natural causes at the World Trade Center than from terrorism! WTCx3: The third time's the charm!
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Old 25th June 2006, 01:42 PM   #555
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Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
These guys crack me up. We have been arguing for years that it would be impossible to wire the buildings with explosives, since the crashing airplane would screw things up. So now a CTer uses this idea, as an argument that THERE WERE NO PLANES!
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...showtopic=6919
I swear, if any of them actually had to put together a coherent theory their collective heads would explode.
The Steven E. Jones theory is that all the floors were wired with explosives. (Well, not wired. He thinks they were radio-controlled explosives) That way, the detonator operator could select the correct floors after the planes hit. The explosives would have to be protected from the heat and damage, of course, but Jones doesn't see that as a problem.
Makes perfect sense.
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Old 25th June 2006, 01:53 PM   #556
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
Exactly. Whatever they do – or don't do –*at Ground Zero, it's going to piss off a lot of people. I wish they would leave the area as a memorial (except for WTC 7, which is off to the side). The result is going to be a strange mix:
Well, that's one way of looking at it. I tend to be rather pragmatic about whether to build something back on the spot. One of the things people that know they are about to die tend to tell other people is that they have to keep on living. I don't see it as a sign of disrespect as such to get it back to being a proper business area again. And I probably don't think their promotional slogans will be that blatant. (Then again, you never know...)

But, I will be the first to admit that I haven't seen WTC in person before it fell, and I haven't seen the spot hundreds of times afterwards, so I am nowhere nearly as emotionally attached to the disaster area as I could be (and perhaps should be?).
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Old 25th June 2006, 02:47 PM   #557
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
The Steven E. Jones theory is that all the floors were wired with explosives. (Well, not wired. He thinks they were radio-controlled explosives) That way, the detonator operator could select the correct floors after the planes hit. The explosives would have to be protected from the heat and damage, of course, but Jones doesn't see that as a problem.
Makes perfect sense.
Jones theory is that an unknown amount of floors and some unknown combination of explosives and thermite/thermate(possibly superthermite) caused the buildings to fall.
Since thermite can't burn sideways he is trying to come up with some sort of fireproof, ultra tough cylinder/wedge that was welded to an unknown amount of core/perimeter columns that causes thermite to burn in diagonal lines.
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Old 25th June 2006, 02:58 PM   #558
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Originally Posted by Hawk one View Post
Well, that's one way of looking at it. I tend to be rather pragmatic about whether to build something back on the spot. One of the things people that know they are about to die tend to tell other people is that they have to keep on living. I don't see it as a sign of disrespect as such to get it back to being a proper business area again. And I probably don't think their promotional slogans will be that blatant. (Then again, you never know...)

But, I will be the first to admit that I haven't seen WTC in person before it fell, and I haven't seen the spot hundreds of times afterwards, so I am nowhere nearly as emotionally attached to the disaster area as I could be (and perhaps should be?).
I want to make it clear that the opinion I expressed above isn't one I've ever pressed on anyone...except here! I wouldn't want the thankless job of planning that site.

To me, the most important pragmatic concerns are these:

There's no need for the office space, and the site hasn't attracted new tenants on its own merits. There is a glut of development in NYC now. To attract tenants to Ground Zero, the city, state and federal governments are offering enormous tax incentives and bond packages. Taxpayers are paying businesses to move to Ground Zero. That's not unusual for New York City, but I believe the incentives offered are unprecedented. And the more that happens, the more businesses will put their hands out and demand more, "or else." It's been happening for years. New York has spent hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars in recent to keep business here that merely threatened to leave, but that had no real plans to go. Now, we're spending more money than that on companies just to keep them from moving to MIDTOWN. Goldman Sachs is receiving hundreds of millions of dollars from the city, plus $1.6 billion in federally-backed Liberty Bonds, in order to build a new HQ at Ground Zero and not in midtown Manhattan.

That's a huge pragmatic concern for me.

My major pragmatic concern is the obvious fact that two major terrorist attacks have occured there, costing thousands of lives and billions of dollars. Building an enormous skyscraper like Freedom Tower, as opposed to structures that are smaller, safer, and less inviting to terrorists, does not strike me as a wise thing to do. That building will be a purely symbolic gesture, except that real people will be working there. Comapnies that take the incentives and move there will be putting their employees in the position of potentially working in the world's biggest target, or of leaving their jobs.
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Old 25th June 2006, 03:07 PM   #559
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
I want to make it clear that the opinion I expressed above isn't one I've ever pressed on anyone...except here! I wouldn't want the thankless job of planning that site.

[snip]
It wasn't pressing your opinion at all. It was voicing your opinion, and you are more than allowed to do that. Especially here. And I'm glad you did so.

And also, thanks for giving me details about the practical issues. I was, as you can imagine, pretty much ignorant to most of this, except that I knew it wasn't at all unusual to generally give huge tax breaks to the businesses. So, you've given me some good info to think about, and I can already say that I see your point, and am quite likely to agree with it.

Gee, this is getting all too nice and logical and stuff. Someone post a link to the latest LC foolery, quick!
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Old 25th June 2006, 03:37 PM   #560
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
My major pragmatic concern is the obvious fact that two major terrorist attacks have occured there, costing thousands of lives and billions of dollars. Building an enormous skyscraper like Freedom Tower, as opposed to structures that are smaller, safer, and less inviting to terrorists, does not strike me as a wise thing to do. That building will be a purely symbolic gesture, except that real people will be working there. Comapnies that take the incentives and move there will be putting their employees in the position of potentially working in the world's biggest target, or of leaving their jobs.
I hadn't thought of that this way. It's an interesting take. But the problem with that I think is it implies that America should stop building huge skyscrapers. And what kind of message would that leave for the terrorists? That they've wone? No, I think Freedom Tower is a powerful message.
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