Obsession and the "Protocols of Islam"

gumboot · Aug 6, 2006

This thread is really in regard to the documentary Obsession, which is about Radical Islam's war on the west.

It was certainly a bit of an eye-opener for me.

But I tried to apply my skeptical brain to it. It's not hard to feel there are parallels between the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and this documentary, at least in general message.

My instinctive response to the documentary is to believe it entirely. I have had strong feelings along a similar line for a while, although I had previously considered the actual threat these people posed to our way of life to be low.

Now I am more inclined to believe that, if we continue as we are in the west, within 50 years (my life time) Radical Islam will challenge the very survival of western civilisation. More importantly, if we continue on our current path, I believe they will do more than threaten us.

I believe they will win.

It has been said that the generation that faced Nazi Germany is the greatest generation in mankind's history. If the threat of Radical Islam is as great as Obsession suggests, I believe, to overcome, my generation and the generation after mine will need to be even greater. I'm not confident that we can do it.

So.

What I'm interested in is any insight into this Islamic conspiracy theory. Is it really as bad as Obsession presents it? Or is Obsession an example of manipulation and fear mongering?

I try to imagine a similar documentary about Nazi Germany released in 1939. I imagine it would have been thoroughly rejected.

I don't want this hindsight to unfairly influence my acceptance of Obsession's message. But neither do I want to be like the masses of the 1930's who ignored the warnings of Churchill and people like him.

-Andrew

Pardalis · Aug 6, 2006

gumboot said:
This thread is really in regard to the documentary Obsession, which is about Radical Islam's war on the west.

It was certainly a bit of an eye-opener for me.

But I tried to apply my skeptical brain to it. It's not hard to feel there are parallels between the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and this documentary, at least in general message.

My instinctive response to the documentary is to believe it entirely. I have had strong feelings along a similar line for a while, although I had previously considered the actual threat these people posed to our way of life to be low.

snip (for space)

I believe they will win.

snip (for space)

I try to imagine a similar documentary about Nazi Germany released in 1939. I imagine it would have been thoroughly rejected.

I don't want this hindsight to unfairly influence my acceptance of Obsession's message. But neither do I want to be like the masses of the 1930's who ignored the warnings of Churchill and people like him.

-Andrew

Emphasis mine.

The words and expressions I emphasised are exactly the kind of things that makes my skin crawl when I hear conspiracy theorists. It's great that you remain skeptical of your own inclination to "believe", but I also see that you are struggling to remain critical. The allure of feelings and fear is great, I too am stuggling with it, especially when our fears are shown to be true ( when terrorists strike, or when terrorist plots are twarted which makes us see that they do exist). So it's totally understandable.

But we have to remember that we hear this exact wording from Cters, don't we? That should trigger an alarm, Gumboot, it certainly did when I read your post. Cters say the same thing about America (they also compare it to Nazi Germany, and believe there is an international plot of world domination). So let's keep our heads cool and look at it critically, without feelings and fear.

MarkyX · Aug 6, 2006

Just remember the video represents clips in the mainstream arab world and that even moderate muslims and an ex-terrorist are speaking about it.

You can't really get any closer then that about the subject. What makes it insanely power is that they let the Muslim extermists do the talking instead of the narrator.

blutoski · Aug 6, 2006

gumboot said:
But I tried to apply my skeptical brain to it. It's not hard to feel there are parallels between the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and this documentary, at least in general message.

I think you have a good point, and there is a tendency for many skeptics to retreat into cynicism when it comes to politics, because objective information is difficult to obtain. Perhaps even impossible.

A documentary itself should not be sufficient to guide your views on an issue: it was composed as a thesis, if you will, and the evidence is selected to support the thematic claim.

Recall that there are many creationist documentaries that are composed almost entirely of statements by scientists. Dawkins is in one ,and claims he was quoted out of context, obviously. Also, the film What The Bleep appears very legitemate to laypersons, containing as it does, PhDs in quantum physics explaining how physics is incorporating transcendental meditation into its explanatory sphere.

The key problem is that a few clips, even from those in positions of authority, may not be representative of the entire population, and should always be suspicious.

The other problem with media during war time is that it doesn't have to be propaganda to be jingoistic. What advertiser would chip in to have their product boosted during "Islam: The Misunderstood Peace Faith" during this political climate? Even if it were a true representation of the culture, such a program would not get aired for simple commercial reasons.

I remember a few years ago when Reagan was grandstanding Qhadaffi (yes, I'm that old...) and all the tabloids were making fun of him. ie: the National Enquirer had a picture of Qhadaffi on the front page, wearing makeup and drag. The story was that he was a transvestite. You don't have to think that the CIA twisted their arm - they just knew it would sell, so it was a no-brainer to print it.

What a skeptic would want to do is investigate perhaps surveys and polls of opinions in Islamic communities and countries, to see if the Wahabi-ist anti-Western attitude is consistent with the show's claim, prevalent, &c.

Having said that, my exposure to muslims in Vancouver suggests that there is a credible claim for widespread hostility toward Western ideas. Whether this translates into a real threat is a different question.

Childlike Empress · Aug 6, 2006

gumboot said:
What I'm interested in is any insight into this Islamic conspiracy theory. Is it really as bad as Obsession presents it? Or is Obsession an example of manipulation and fear mongering?

I haven't watched it and know nothing about it except what i figured out after a short visit of the website. Big on FOX and Rush Limbaugh? Ok.

If you click on "Filmmakers" it tells you two names - Wayne Kopping and Raphael Shore who did a previous film together. What it doesn't tell you is that they are associated with, both films released by and the website registered to Aish HaTorah^WP.

This seems to be an important information if one wants to judge the objectivity of the film. I wouldn't build my opinion on it, to say the least.

P.S. Look Pardalis, a wikipedia-tag!

gumboot · Aug 6, 2006

blutoski said:
Having said that, my exposure to muslims in Vancouver suggests that there is a credible claim for widespread hostility toward Western ideas. Whether this translates into a real threat is a different question.

I think the most significant part of the documentary for me is the nature of Arab television in some of these countries. Of course this is not something we are regularly exposed to.

The footage they showed, whether it was typical of Arab TV or not, presented a definate culture of hate carried out by the few in powerful positions. Naturally the populations of these countries - if this is all they are exposed to, are going to know no differently (especially the children).

Of course, one could do similar things with western television, however for me the conclusive evidence is the nature of these talks...

Sure, Bush will refer to an "axis of evil" every now and then, but to my way of thinking that's a little different from the leader of Iran saying, on television, that Islam will rule the entire world, and that the United States is Satan.

In the west we do use emotive rhetoric, certainly, but it's fairly mild, IMHO, and allows for more moderate "serious" views. So A leader might refer to an axis of evil in one speech, yet genuinely seek a diplomatic and peaceful solution to a given problem.

In contrast I find it a bit more difficult to believe someone who expresses a desire and intention to rule the entire is capable of seeking a diplomatic and peaceful solution (at least, for any length of time).

But yes... it is always hard to find a balance between cynicism, skepticism, and common sense.

There are a lot of examples in history of simply untrue propaganda, and of grossly distorted facts. But there are also examples in history where the thread was every bit as real as the worst nightmares presented.

In this modern age of mass media it is as difficult as ever to determine what is what.

-Andrew

Skeptic Ginger · Aug 6, 2006

Talk about Richard Dawkin's meme theory that religions are like a virus or parasite that once it infects the host, the host works for survival of the meme rather than survival of the host. And just like viruses or parasites that are so virulent they kill the host leading to their own demise, this insanity certainly follows that pattern. So it isn't just some mission to make the world Islamic, it's fundamentalism's growth on many fronts that could culminate in the fantasy Armageddon war.

What a bunch of idiots! They are going to get us all killed for a fantasy belief like the Heaven's Gate cult who thought if they committed suicide they'd end up on a spaceship hidden behind a passing comet.

The Believers who think their actions will bring about Armageddon and Islam's victory:

True believers dial messiah hotline in Iran Energized by president's beliefs, end-of-timers redouble their outreach; Christian Science Monitor, 01-04-06

QOM, IRAN – Have a quick question about when the Mahdi is coming to save mankind, according to Shiite Muslim adherents? Need to know the signs?

Just call the new messiah "hotline." Or log on to Bright Future News Agency to get the latest religious readout - all part of the effort by freshly rejuvenated true believers in Iran to spread their message of the imminent return of the Mahdi, the 12th Imam who is expected to return to impose justice and spread peace.

Paving the way is a renewed commitment to "Mahdaviat" beliefs by the ultraconservative government of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad,...

They say that return - which they believe will happen soon - will prompt a global battle between good and evil (not unlike biblical "Armageddon" interpretations), and herald an era of justice, peace, and the ultimate triumph of Shiite Islam....

While he waits, Morteza Rabaninejad sits at a new computer with a new telephone and a new headset, answering five calls and 10 letters a day.....

The blend of modern technology and ancient prophecy echoes efforts of US evangelicals who use 45 categories - from liberalism to natural disasters - to predict the "end time," when holy people will experience "rapture" and go to heaven. For them, the "Rapture Index" (www.raptureready.com) is at 151; anything higher than 145 means "Fasten your seatbelts," because of what they deem a high level of prophetic activity.

In Iran, theologians say end-of-times beliefs appeal to one-fifth of Iranians. And Jamkaran mosque east of Qom, 60 miles south of Tehran, is where the link between devotees and the Mahdi is closest....

... the institute's news agency, online at http://www.bfnews.ir/ [I can't find an English version] began churning out reports three months ago.

...Shiite writings describe events surrounding the return in apocalyptic terms, similar to those used in Revelations, which some Christian evangelicals believe predicts a final world war during which Jesus returns to win and reign for 1,000 years.

In one script, forces of evil would come from Syria and Iraq and clash with forces of good from Iran. The battle would commence at Kufa - the Iraqi town near the holy city of Najaf (and home to the anti-US Iraqi cleric, Moqtada al-Sadr).

The evil commander named Sofiani and the anti-Mahdi known as Dajol (comparable to the Christian antichrist), would both be killed. The forces of good would be led by a "man from Khorasan" - a province in northeast Iran.

The Mahdi would return at Mecca, and fight. His victory would bring a government of God for a period of "seven," according to one reading. Seven months, years, or millennia is not clear...

Iran: President Says Light Surrounded Him During UN Speech; Radio Free Europe, Radio Liberty; 11-29-05

Iranian President Mahmud Ahmadinejad says that when he delivered his speech at the UN General Assembly in September, he felt there was a light around him and that the attention of the world leaders in the audience was unblinkingly focused upon him....

Hossein Bastani, an Iranian journalist based in France, told RFE/RL that Ahmadinejad's comments can be interpreted in two ways.

"One analysis is that this government believes that it came to power with the votes of the so-called lowest class of the Iranian society and these are classes that believe more in such supernatural tales," Bastani said. "Therefore, this government tries, by propagating such rumors, to gain a dogmatic, charismatic, and holy status among those whom they think support them. The second view is that despite the fact that they are trying to fool people, maybe they also believe in these things that are being repeatedly published about them and said by them. This is more dangerous.”...

Since the presidential elections in Iran, many bizarre stories and rumors have circulated about Ahmadinejad. Many of them are related to his devotion to the 12th Imam, also known as Imam Mahdi, who according to Muslims has disappeared and will return at the end of time to lead an era of Islamic justice.

During his September speech at the UN, Ahmadinejad called for the reappearance of the 12th Imam.

In mid-November, during a speech to Friday prayers leaders from across Iran, Ahmadinejad said that the main mission of the revolution is to pave the way for the reappearance of the 12th Imam.

In recent weeks, the president's aides have denied a rumor that he ordered his cabinet to write a pact of loyalty with the 12th Imam and throw it down a well near the holy city of Qom, where some believe the Imam is hiding.

.... "In recent weeks and months, there has been much news similar to the meeting between Ahmadinejad and Ayatollah Amoli. These [reports] include the allocation in at least two cases of heavy budgets for the Jamkaran mosque [at the well where some believe that Imam Mahdi is hiding] or comments by the president that have been quoted by the Iranian media in which he had said in an official meeting that the Hidden Imam will appear in two years."

The believers who believe their actions will bring about Armageddon and Christianity's victory:

The Godly Must be Crazy; Grist Magazine; 10-27-04

Forty-five senators and 186 representatives in 2003 earned 80- to 100-percent approval ratings from the nation's three most influential Christian right advocacy groups -- the Christian Coalition, Eagle Forum, and Family Resource Council. Many of those same lawmakers also got flunking grades -- less than 10 percent, on average -- from the League of Conservation Voters last year.

These statistics are puzzling at first.... a scripture-based justification for anti-environmentalism?..

Many Christian fundamentalists feel that concern for the future of our planet is irrelevant, because it has no future. They believe we are living in the End Time, when the son of God will return, the righteous will enter heaven, and sinners will be condemned to eternal hellfire. They may also believe, along with millions of other Christian fundamentalists, that environmental destruction is not only to be disregarded but actually welcomed -- even hastened -- as a sign of the coming Apocalypse.

We are not talking about a handful of fringe lawmakers who hold or are beholden to these beliefs. The 231 legislators (all but five of them Republicans) who received an average 80 percent approval rating or higher from the leading religious-right organizations make up more than 40 percent of the U.S. Congress....

These politicians include some of the most powerful figures in the U.S. government, as well as key environmental decision makers: Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-Tenn.), Senate Majority Whip Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.), Senate Republican Conference Chair Rick Santorum (R-Penn.), Senate Republican Policy Chair Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.), House Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.), House Majority Whip Roy Blunt (R-Mo.), U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft, and quite possibly President Bush. (Earlier this month, a cover story by Ron Suskind in The New York Times Magazine described how Bush's faith-based governance has led to, among other things, a disastrous "crusade" in the Middle East and has laid the groundwork for "a battle between modernists and fundamentalists, pragmatists and true believers, reason and religion.")

...A 2002 Time/CNN poll found that 59 percent of Americans believe that the prophecies found in the Book of Revelation are going to come true. ...

Like it or not, faith in the Apocalypse is a powerful driving force in modern American politics. In the 2000 election, the Christian right cast at least 15 million votes, or about 30 percent of those that propelled Bush into the presidency....Karl Rove hopes to mobilize 20 million fundamentalist voters to help sweep Bush back into office on Nov. 2 and to maintain a Republican majority in Congress, says Joan Bokaer, director of Theocracy Watch, a project of the Center for Religion, Ethics, and Social Policy at Cornell University.

Because of its power as a voting bloc, the Christian right has the ear, if not the souls, of much of the nation's leadership. Some of those leaders are End-Time believers themselves. Others are not. Either way, their votes are heavily swayed by an electoral base that accepts the Bible as literal truth and eagerly awaits the looming Apocalypse....

While there are many divergent End-Time theologies and sects, the most politically influential are the dispensationalists and reconstructionists.

Tune in to any of America's 2,000 Christian radio stations or 250 Christian TV stations and you're likely to get a heady dose of dispensationalism, an End-Time doctrine invented in the 19th century by the Irish-Anglo theologian John Nelson Darby....

Dispensationalists haven't cornered the market on End-Time interpretation. The reconstructionists (also known as dominionists), a smaller but politically influential sect, put the onus for the Lord's return not in the hands of biblical prophesy but in political activism. They believe that Christ will only make his Second Coming when the world has prepared a place for Him, and that the first step in readying His arrival is to Christianize America.

The believers who believe their actions will bring about Armageddon and Judaism's victory*:

*(There are mixed beliefs about the Red Heifer where some Christians buy into the belief but think the messiah is Jesus returning while Jews think it is the Messiah and Jesus was not. These sites are actually Christian sites.

Forcing the End

As Lott read the Bible that day, he realized that the Second Coming and the fate of humankind now depended on the red heifer. In order for the Jews to rebuild the Temple and prepare the way for the return of the Messiah they must be purified with the ashes of a red heifer.

A qualified red heifer has not been found in Israel in almost two thousand years. And yet red cattle are not really so unusual in the United States. A breed known as the Red Angus is as red as an Irish setter. It occurred to Lott that God, who he believed had directed the evangelist's own success in the showring, was now guiding his hand in a much larger matter. Where was the red heifer to come from? ...

...Lott went to Jerusalem to meet with the rabbis...

There were many prominent Jews, however, who believed that they were already living in the End Time--the recapture of Jerusalem was evidence enough-- and that Jews must now do their part to prepare the way for the appearance of the Messiah. Soon after the Six-Day War was over, Shlomo Goren, who later became the Chief Rabbi of Israel, led a group of fifty followers onto the Mount, where they fought off Muslim guards and Israeli police and conducted a prayer service. A week later, the Chief Rabbinate ordered that signs be placed in front of the gates saying that no Jews should set foot on the Temple Mount. The reasoning was that, because Jews are ritually impure, they might accidentally step on the place where the Holy of Holies once stood. Such a desecration is punishable by death at the hand of God. This was supposed to put the Temple Mount theologically off limits--at least, until the advent of the red heifer.

Despite this proscription, there have been several serious attempts to blow up the Muslim holy places. Both Israeli and Islamic authorities are so concerned about the intentions of Gershon Salomon and other Temple fanatics that every confrontation has the potential to rage out of control. In 1990, Salomon led a group of his followers to the Mount in order to lay a "cornerstone" for the Third Temple....

Nadav Shragai, a reporter for the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz and the author of a 1995 book, "The Temple Mount Conflict,'' estimates that there are about a thousand active supporters of the most radical Temple Mount movements. No doubt they are heavily infiltrated by Israeli intelligence, which has long worried that a successful strike at the mosques would spark a holy war. These activists are a feature of a larger upheaval in Israeli society, caused by a stunning rise of religious conservatism and a muscular political involvement of religious Jews in Israeli politics. "Jewish fundamentalism of the nationalist branch is mostly the product of the Six Day War," Emmanuel Sivan, a professor of Islamic Studies at Hebrew University, says. "The fact is that until '67 the national religious camp was a very moderate Zionist movement. It has turned extremist because of this apocalyptic vision."...

According to Clyde Lott... "It's very sad, but I would say the interest in the Christian world is to see the Temple rebuilt from the Anti-christ perspective, for the rapture of the Church, and that's a very selfish point of view," Lott says. "The very people that are advocating this are the ones that are very anti-Semitic in their feelings." Although Evangelical theology forecasts the destruction of the Jews in the Last Days, Lott believes that Jews are God's Chosen People and that the Bible clearly states that God favors those who help Israel....

... He will also ship frozen embryos from Dixie and other donor cows, along with select sperm, to be held in safekeeping until after the tribulation. According to Lott, his efforts will ensure that "in the first one or two or three decades of the millennial reign Israel will be able to go into the tanks, pull out those frozen embryos, and place them in cows. And in one generation, whatever they lost in he tribulation, they will have the very best cows on the face of the earth....She will be able to get the rest of the world back on its feet again, agriculturally, from a livestock point of view."...

Sorry, the above was a sucky article to wade through and pull quotes from. It reads like a sickly fantasy some end timers seem to relish in.

The Mystery of the Red Heifer: ; Divine Promise of Purity by Rabbi Chaim Richman

The Mystery of the Red Heifer provides the answers to these questions and many others. For the first time, all of the background, stories, laws and wisdom relating to this unique Biblical commandment are presented in one authoritative volume. Also included: the exciting, unfolding drama of the red heifer for Israel's coming Third Temple.

Rabbi Chaim Richman, author and translator, is an internationally acclaimed authority on the Holy Temple and the prophecies concerning the future of Israel and the world....

Then there are the non-interventionists:

Anti-Israel rabbis vow Hamas support

The rabbis from the small ultra-Orthodox movement Neturei Karta...

The group rejects the existence of the state of Israel as contrary to Jewish law and believes the land should be returned to Palestinians.

Neturei Karta believe that no Jewish state should be created before the coming of the messiah....

The anti-Zionist movement once represented a stronger current within ultra-Orthodox Judaism, but its membership has dropped to about 400 families in Israel, with supporters in Britain and the US.

There are similar Christian and Muslim non-interventionists but the post is getting too long as it is.

Frontline produced an excellent program on this issue.

List of primary sources from Frontline piece

If these groups grow larger and any stronger, there could be a very large war coming to a neighborhood near you real soon. It may already be too late. I think it is unlikely many can be persuaded they are bringing about a war and there will be no Messiah. The best approach is to start supporting the idea it's like building the tower of Babylon. It's going to piss God off if they act as if they can control the return of any Imam or Messiah. Try to keep more fundamentalists from joining this cause.

Skeptic Ginger · Aug 6, 2006

I was trying to not get too far off topic and may have strayed a bit further than I had planned in the above post. I do think there is a huge movement to make the world an Islamic State. There is a similar though maybe less violent but not so small movement to make the world a Christian State. We shouldn't neglect the risk from either side as they see each other as a threat, and feel their faith requires they spread their control.

The majority of people are not in these fundamentalists camps yet, but that could change. And certainly the two extremists camps are over-estimating the size of the extremists in the other group.

SteveGrenard · Aug 6, 2006

skeptigirl said:
I was trying to not get too far off topic and may have strayed a bit further than I had planned in the above post. I do think there is a huge movement to make the world an Islamic State. There is a similar though maybe less violent but not so small movement to make the world a Christian State. We shouldn't neglect the risk from either side as they see each other as a threat, and feel their faith requires they spread their control.

The majority of people are not in these fundamentalists camps yet, but that could change. And certainly the two extremists camps are over-estimating the size of the extremists in the other group.

http://vikingphoenix.com/blog/antidote/2005/07/map-of-europe-2015.html

defaultdotxbe · Aug 6, 2006

my great grandparents are from germany, and they lived there during ww2, so i have firsthand accounts of how a small group of extremists can whip an otherwise rational population into a frenzy

on the surface most muslims would probably have no problem with the world beign an islamic state, its the means to that end they would object to, but like germans during the holocaust, most didnt know the means

they were told the jews were the cause the problems, and that they were "getting rid" of the jews, many saw the trains going to poland (auschwitz) and simpy assumed they were being deported

others felt something was wrong but "played along" for fear of reprisal

some fled the country and came to america, but didnt speak on the issue becuase it was "europes problem"

the film makes good use of the quote "the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

like gumboot i think the main question to ask is how much the islamic media is pushing this antiwestern attitude, if its as much as the film implies then there is certainly a serious problem brewing, although i suspect its not as prevalent as theme as the film shows

Skeptic Ginger · Aug 6, 2006

defaultdotxbe said:
...

like gumboot i think the main question to ask is how much the islamic media is pushing this antiwestern attitude, if its as much as the film implies then there is certainly a serious problem brewing, although i suspect its not as prevalent as theme as the film shows

Well, as I was trying to find the Arab response to the Iranian President's claim bringing on Armageddon would result in an Islamic victory, I was quite surprised to find this on the Aljazeera web site:

Aljazeera allowed back into Iran; Aljazeera English Web site; 06-22-06

Aljazeera has been permitted to work again in Iran, 14 months after being banned from the Islamic republic.

About 3% of Iran's 67 million people are Arabs, many of whom reside in Khuzestan, home to vast oilfields which account for 80% of the country's oil export profits.

The country's western border is comprised of several ethnic groups including Arabs, Kurds and Azeris, which has led to ethnic tensions in the past.

I think a lot of Westerners, myself included, are making all sorts of assumptions about the Arab world that are incorrect. In this case, what assumptions are we making about their news media based on reports from ours?

I'm going to start a thread to see just how people are perceiving the ethnic make up of the Mid East.

Childlike Empress · Aug 6, 2006

skeptigirl said:
Well, as I was trying to find the Arab response to the Iranian President's claim bringing on Armageddon would result in an Islamic victory, I was quite surprised to find this on the Aljazeera web site

Excellent post #7, skeptigirl. These fundamentalistic belief systems are driving each other into a spiral of insanity. Ironically, without the iraq invasion let by born-again W. we would have a far less extremist iranian president named Rafsanjani today.

As far as i know, the iranian religious hierarchy including the head of state Khamenei are non-interventionist shiites. Ahmadinedjad is the member of an interventionist sect named Hojjatieh, but he is only the president. He has not the last word in Iran.

Pardalis · Aug 7, 2006

Childlike Empress said:
Ironically, without the iraq invasion let by born-again W. we would have a far less extremist iranian president named Rafsanjani today.

I'm not sure I understand. Why is that? Wouldn't there be an exstremist as the president of Iran anyway? Especially with a Sunni dictator like Saddam Hussein (and eventually his sons) next door?

Childlike Empress · Aug 7, 2006

Pardalis said:
I'm not sure I understand. Why is that? Wouldn't there be an exstremist as the president of Iran anyway? Especially with a Sunni dictator like Saddam Hussein (and eventually his sons) next door?

The election was in June 2005 and at that time most of the iranians already stopped beeing glad about Saddam Hussein's disempowerment and were very angry about the way the US-Occupation in Iraq went. Without that anger, it had been a sure success for Rafsanjani, who was president from 89 to 97 and was quite moderate in his policies (some called him a reformer).

AWPrime · Aug 7, 2006

They (the islamic states) will blow up, the question is: will the shrapnel go for us or will they target eachother? Or both?

Pardalis · Aug 7, 2006

Childlike Empress said:
The election was in June 2005 and at that time most of the iranians already stopped beeing glad about Saddam Hussein's disempowerment and were very angry about the way the US-Occupation in Iraq went. Without that anger, it had been a sure success for Rafsanjani, who was president from 89 to 97 and was quite moderate in his policies (some called him a reformer).

Interesting. But are you sure the US occupation of Iraq was the main reason why Mahmoud Ahmadinejad got elected instead of Rafsanjani? Do you have some litterature on that?

I'll check with Wikipedia as well.

defaultdotxbe · Aug 7, 2006

skeptigirl said:
...
I think a lot of Westerners, myself included, are making all sorts of assumptions about the Arab world that are incorrect. In this case, what assumptions are we making about their news media based on reports from ours?

I'm going to start a thread to see just how people are perceiving the ethnic make up of the Mid East.

i agree that far too many assumptions are made, but something to consider is aljazeera is an arab network, but technically iran is not arab, its persian (as noted in the quote, oonly 3% of iranians are arab)

but this indicates that the islamic world is not as "united" against the west as some may assume (much like the 9/11 truth movement have many different flavors of "truth")

Skeptic Ginger · Aug 7, 2006

Pardalis said:
Interesting. But are you sure the US occupation of Iraq was the main reason why Mahmoud Ahmadinejad got elected instead of Rafsanjani? Do you have some litterature on that?

I'll check with Wikipedia as well.

Wow, what a mess of information. I'm not sure what is reliable.

This is what I found after a brief search. I await what others turn up for a better picture of events.

June 28, 2005 by CommonDreams.org; The United States and the Iranian Election; by Stephen Zunes

The election of the hard-line Teheran mayor Mahmoud Ahmadinejad over former president Hashemi Rafsanjani as the new president of Iran is undeniably a setback to those hoping to advance the cause of greater social and political freedom in that country.

It should not necessarily be seen as a turn to the right by the Iranian electorate, however. While Rafsanjani was portrayed as a more moderate conservative, the fact that this 70-year old cleric had become a millionaire while in government service and was widely seen as the penultimate wheeler dealer of the political establishment was apparently perceived by many Iranians as of greater importance than his modest reform agenda. By contrast, the victorious campaign of the young Teheran mayor focused upon the plight of the poor and cleaning up corruption.

Global Voices Online monitors blogs and noted these two:

In his next post, once the results were finalized Hoder writes:

Even if Rafsanjani goes to the second ruond with Ahmadinejad the Khamanei voting machine will act again and will make Ahmadinejad the new president of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

The pro-reform youth are so dissapointed and depressed. Nobody knows what will happen next. But Khamenei is the biggest winner of this game. He now has both the big turn-out (plus a middle-finger to Bush), and a quasi-president who is only a cover for his excellency.

Compare that to this one from the same page:

Mr. Behi points to this article at Commondreams.org. [The above article] The article’s first sentence: “Iran’s most repressive clerics and the USA’s most militaristic neocons share a common interest: They’re very eager to see the failure of Iranian activism for democracy and human rights.” Mr. Behi then writes:

This fantastic article by Norman Solomon is a must read for many Iranians who love Bush to come and rescue them. It is really sensible here in Iran and the last case was yesterday when the national TV was so excited about Bush recent speech against the election (I am not implying that the content of his speech was wrong) but it was the biggest gift Bush could give the conservatives who are always waiting for such speeches to call the United States a number one enemy of the nation by heating up and misusing the sense of patriotism among the people.

My guess at this point given the shining example Iraq is making for democracy is that Iran would have shifted towards hard line religious extremism rather than Iraq having had a positive or no influence at all on Iranian elections.

The current bombing of Lebanon is certainly continuing the trend as Iranians rally round their own flag as most people do against an outside threat, regardless of how they feel about their current government. Kind of like the abused spouse sometimes sides with the abuser over the police at the door.

DanishDynamite · Aug 7, 2006

gumboot said:
This thread is really in regard to the documentary Obsession, which is about Radical Islam's war on the west.

It was certainly a bit of an eye-opener for me.

But I tried to apply my skeptical brain to it. It's not hard to feel there are parallels between the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and this documentary, at least in general message.

My instinctive response to the documentary is to believe it entirely. I have had strong feelings along a similar line for a while, although I had previously considered the actual threat these people posed to our way of life to be low.

Now I am more inclined to believe that, if we continue as we are in the west, within 50 years (my life time) Radical Islam will challenge the very survival of western civilisation. More importantly, if we continue on our current path, I believe they will do more than threaten us.

I believe they will win.

It has been said that the generation that faced Nazi Germany is the greatest generation in mankind's history. If the threat of Radical Islam is as great as Obsession suggests, I believe, to overcome, my generation and the generation after mine will need to be even greater. I'm not confident that we can do it.

So.

What I'm interested in is any insight into this Islamic conspiracy theory. Is it really as bad as Obsession presents it? Or is Obsession an example of manipulation and fear mongering?

I try to imagine a similar documentary about Nazi Germany released in 1939. I imagine it would have been thoroughly rejected.

I don't want this hindsight to unfairly influence my acceptance of Obsession's message. But neither do I want to be like the masses of the 1930's who ignored the warnings of Churchill and people like him.

-Andrew

There is nothing to worry about. Relax.

If Muslim fanatics should ever become a real threat to the West, the nukes will be launched. We may then have an oil crisis for a short period, but that's the price you sometimes need to pay.

gumboot · Aug 7, 2006

With all due respect...

I think some of you are totally missing the significance of what this documentary shows...

I fail to see how "fundimentalist christians supporting senators" is evidence that the senators themselves have extremist Christian views. That is not comparative to what this documentary shows.

Example:

I am right now looking at a segment of footage shown on Iranian Television in 2005

It depicts Ali Khamenei; the supreme leader of Iran since 1989, and before that President of Iran. In his own words:

Our people say "death to America", and this is like saying "I seek God's refuge from the accursed Satan," which is recited before any chapter of the Koran. Why is this? So he will never forget, even for a moment, that Satan is ready to attack him and to destroy his spiritual shield and his faith_ The saying, "death to America" is for this purpose.

Or, we could look at a video clip, also on Iranian TV, of Mahmoud Ahmadi-Nejad; the current President, speaking in July 2004, before he was elected.

The message of the [Islamic] Revolution is global, and is not restricted to a specific place or time. Have no doubt_ Allah willing, Islam will conquer what? It will conquer all the mountain tops of the world.

Or perhaps a music video broadcast in Iran in 2004, which depicts war footage, etc, with music and the follow words:

America is lurking for you, and will not give up until it destroys you completely. Rise up soon because the world is not safe from the hunter. "The World Without America" (played to final fanfare with depiction of statue of liberty as a skull)

Or perhaps we should go back earlier, to when things were peaceful...

Dr Ikrime Sabri, Mufti of Palestine, the supreme religious leader in the Palestinian Authority, made the following broadcast on August 24, 2001, two weeks before 9/11:

Oh Allah, destroy America! Oh Allah, destroy Britain and its supports and collaborators!

Or there is Sheikh Dr. Bakr Al-Samarai, the imam at Baghdad's al-Gailani mosque, speaking on Iraqi TV in February, 2003:

The Americans and their president and the British and those that follow them and the Zionists, the spoiled offspring of the entity. Allahu Akhbar! [God is great!] If Allah permits us, Oh Nation of Mohammed, even the stone will say, "Oh Muslim, a jew is hiding behind me, come and cut off his head." And we shall cut off his head! By Allah, we shall cut it off! Oh Jews! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!
(CROWD JOINS IN, CHEERING, RAISING FISTS, PRAYING, ETC)
Jihad for the sake of Allah! Jihad for the sake of Allah! Victory to Allah! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!

Or there's this pearl from Sheik Muhammad Al-Munajid, a disciple of one of Saudi Arabia's most revered religious leaders, Sheik 'Abd Al-'Aziz ibn 'Abdallah ibn Baaz. (Broadcast, August 2004 on Iqra TV, Saudi Arabia)

A British teenager tore out an elderly woman's heart after stabbing her and drank her blood. There are people [in the West] who are enthusiastic about drinking elderly people's blood.

Now bear in mind, this is on a GOVERNMENT television channel in a supposedly WESTERN-FRIENDLY nation...

These are not TV Evangelists on local television ranting stuff that most people don't buy. This is not fanatics who, for whatever reason, approve of the country's leaders.

These ARE the leaders of these nations. These are the presidents and top religious peoples. I honestly cannot understand how anyone can equate this to what we see in the west.

Or there's what they have in their schools. As far back as 1998, what do we find in the text of a Jordanian and Palestinian school book?

"This religion [Islam] will destroy all other religious through the Islamic Jihad fighters"

So what happens when we interview a young girl on Iqraa TV, in Saudi Arabia, in May, 2002?

INTERVIEWER: What's your name?
BASMALLAH: Basmallah.
INTERVIEWER: Basmallah, how old are you?
BASMALLAH: Three and a half.
INTERVIEWER: Are you a Muslim?
BASMALLAH: Yes.
INTERVIEWER: Basmallah, are you familiar with the Jews?
BASMALLAH: Yes.
INTERVIEWER: Do you like them?
BASMALLAH: No.
INTERVIEWER: Why don't you like them?
BASMALLAH: Because...
INTERVIEWER: Because they are what?
BASMALLAH: They're apes and pigs.
INTERVIEWER: Because they are apes and pigs? Who said they are so?
BASMALLAH: Our God.
INTERVIEWER: Where did he say this?
BASMALLAH: In the Koran.
INTERVIEWER: Right, he said that about them in the Koran.

Now, looking at all this stuff, I believe it is a totally legitimate question to ask; "What is the level of indoctrination of hatred in these countries?" and "If it is as bad as presented here, what do we do about it?"

-Andrew

Obsession and the "Protocols of Islam"

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