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Old 12th August 2006, 05:42 AM   #41
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Can anyone give good information on the Molten "steel" after a few weeks ?
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Old 12th August 2006, 09:16 AM   #42
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Old 12th August 2006, 06:00 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
Can anyone give good information on the Molten "steel" after a few weeks ?
Hey Marky -

what exactly are you looking for? Evidence it was there? COmments that there was something molton down there (or not?)

Not sure if this is what you are after but:

http://www.mazzocchiwrecking.com/wtc.htm

Quote:
WORLD TRADE CENTER
Project:
Clean up the World Trade Center site.

Challenges:
The challenges at the World Trade Center were the extreme conditions, both emotional and physical.

The emotional challenge was to overcome the shock, the sense of mass destruction, and the loss of life. The knowledge that, in the first weeks, we were there not to just clean up, but to search for victims.

The physical challenge was the sheer magnitude of the project and its components. A beam 30 feet long and 8 feet wide weighed between 60 and 80 tons—steel so heavy it broke grapples and twisted booms. With ground temperatures reaching in excess of 1,200°F, steel beams were pulled out of the wreckage glowing red.
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Old 12th August 2006, 11:41 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
Going to need some help with Flight 93. It's probably my weakest one.

Does anyone know some good 'common theories' and answers to them? Anything will do.

Let's see: "Wreckage was spread over 8 square miles, meaning the aircraft broke up in midair"

-Andrew
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Old 12th August 2006, 11:54 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
Okay, need some good information on the wargames, from official sources and the timeline for each one.

Hmm... this could be tricky. I've not actually found any accurate sources... my information was "built" from a variety of different sources...

The various operations and exercises on and around 9/11 also have different names, and people get them mixed up, thus creating additional exercise names that don't actually exist.

As far as I know NORAD was only involved in one exercise on 9/11.

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Old 13th August 2006, 12:29 AM   #46
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For the molten metal see 911 Myths - great stuff in the regular sections and then a terrific bit of science-ese from Greening (in the "Other Contributors" section). ((I'm a newbie and not yet able to post links and don't want to get yelled at by a mod.)) but they'd be at ..... the 911 myths site at the following extensions:
html/wtc_molten_steel.html and
/WTCTHERM.pdf

For topics... Most of the "Foreknowledge" BS

Not solely the CT-ers, but everyone around the water cooler still believes the stock market action on UA and AA stock. (Mysterious massive number of put orders that prove to be statistically normal and/or very easily explained.)

4000 Israelis didn't show up for work
SMS messages that warned people to get out 2 hours earlier than attack
All the important folks who didn't get on planes that day
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Old 13th August 2006, 12:32 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
Can anyone give good information on the Molten "steel" after a few weeks ?
This one doesn't have a simple answer.


I can start you with Thomas Cahill
http://www.newsreview.com/sacramento...id=oid%3A65238

Cahill arrived at Ground Zero weeks after the reports of molten metal at the scene, but his extensive research on why the rubble piles smoldered so long was of interest to controlled-demolition theorists, who believed molten steel in the bottom of the piles provided the heat source. Such was not the case, Cahill said. Instead, fuel oil from the WTC’s generators seeped into the ground, ignited and slowly consumed the debris stacked on top of it. As the piles were peeled open, oxygen stoked the underground fire, which burned for weeks.


The longer answer...from a few sources.
A. Steel can melt with the addition of sulfer at 1000C or less
(You get slag)
http://www.me.wpi.edu/MTE/People/imsm.html
(The sulfer can come from gyp wallboard, heating fuel or acid rain)
I have more sources and interviews if needed

B. Smaller parts of steel can melt at around and below 1300C
http://www.atslab.com/fire/PDF/MeltedSteel.pdf

C. Its easy to have the appearance of melted steel but its just oxidized.

http://66.218.69.11/search/cache?p=m...icp=1&.intl=us

A study of the 1991 Oakland fire that burned 3,000 homes
revealed the presence of melted copper in over 80% of the burned structures, and what appeared to be melted steel in over 90% of the burned structures. With respect to steel, looks can be deceiving. What appears to be melted may be merely oxidized.

http://www.muskogeephoenix.com/apps/...511300303/1002
House files often have claims of melted or pools of steel
The house where Ingle said she grew up has burned into a rubble of broken bricks and pools of melted aluminum, plastic and steel.

D. Steel could of melted in the rumble pile beacuse it was insulated
The debris pile sat cooking for weeks, with the materials at the bottom of the pile getting incresingly hot beacuse the fires were confined and lost minimal heat to the atmosphere. As a result the fires could have easily reached temps sufficient to melt steel, not to mention most other metals found in the buildings.
(Debunking 9/11 myths page 41 Jon Magnusson)

E. Working on other steel reactions in the pile. (The Iron Burns research)
http://www.debunking911.com/ironburns.htm

F. Other metals are often mistaken to be steel

For example I have video of molten metal in the basement that is clearly a melted hubcap from a car.
http://www.terrorize.dk/911/magic/91...down.under.php
Click on WTC Three Floors Under

Last edited by Kent1; 13th August 2006 at 12:34 AM.
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Old 13th August 2006, 04:45 AM   #48
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What about the information on Molten Steel at other WTCs? I heard they were some at WTC 6 and 5.
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Old 13th August 2006, 08:59 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
What about the information on Molten Steel at other WTCs? I heard they were some at WTC 6 and 5.
I don't know of any "steel", but I know of two sources regarding metal
Mike has them listed at the bottom
http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc_molten_steel.html
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Old 13th August 2006, 09:33 AM   #50
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Molten steel done, Insider trading done..

Only thing left is NORAD wargames and Flight 93. These are my weakest points.

So if you have a common theory and the answer to them, post em.
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Old 13th August 2006, 10:14 AM   #51
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Forgot to add laws talking about private property (evidence releasing) and confessions that cannot be used in court.
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Old 13th August 2006, 04:38 PM   #52
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New version

http://lol.chroniclesofgaras.com/FST.pdf

Need feedback and the information I've mentioned above.

EDIT: Added a sexy title page.
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Old 13th August 2006, 05:56 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Legalduck View Post
Thermite was used to bring down the WTC (and associated BS such that thermite is an explosive) ...OR that the WTC was constructed using explosives as building materials (C4 mixed with concrete or wrapped around the supports). I can't remember if it was geggy or christophera who proposed that one. I'm too lazy to look.
I agree that thermite was not used intentionally, but I do not agree that is can not be explosive, in fact when mixed at high enough speeds by a specific type of energy it is very explosive.
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Old 13th August 2006, 06:10 PM   #54
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How about these,

Aluminum Does not Burn, Thermite can not form Naturally, Thermite can not be explosive, Steel does not burn, Sulfur does not eat away steel! do those work the ones By Dr. Steven Jones?

They were always the Dumbest that I ever heard!
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Old 13th August 2006, 06:23 PM   #55
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Hey MarkyX
I hate being a pedant (but I am stuck with it. Genetic, perhaps?), so I have resisted posting about this for a while, but there is a slight spelling error in your opening paragraph.
"...suites their purpose." I think it should be "suits their purpose".
It is just the kind of petty mistake that some will pick you up on and try to use to your discredit.
I think I saw a few others further down as well, but I leave it to other pedants to find them.
Apart from these trivial things I think you have created a great document there.
Cheers.
Andy.
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Old 13th August 2006, 06:30 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Aluminum Does not Burn, Thermite can not form Naturally, Thermite can not be explosive, Steel does not burn, Sulfur does not eat away steel! do those work the ones By Dr. Steven Jones?

They were always the Dumbest that I ever heard!
Um, who, or what, are you quoting?
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Old 13th August 2006, 06:43 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade View Post
Um, who, or what, are you quoting?
Sorry I was Quoting the work of Dr. Steven Jones, BYU the physicist.
Wrong on all accounts.

My eyes are bothering me, so it is hard to see and type.

It should have been like this.

Quote:
Aluminum Does not Burn, Thermite can not form Naturally, Thermite can not be explosive, Steel does not burn, Sulfur does not eat away steel!
By Dr. Steven Jones?
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Old 13th August 2006, 06:45 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Sorry I was Quoting the work of Dr. Steven Jones, BYU the physicist.
Wrong on all accounts.

My eyes are bothering me, so it is hard to see and type.

It should have been like this.


By Dr. Steven Jones?
Copy. Thanks for the clarification.
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Old 13th August 2006, 07:00 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Hey MarkyX
I hate being a pedant (but I am stuck with it. Genetic, perhaps?), so I have resisted posting about this for a while, but there is a slight spelling error in your opening paragraph.
"...suites their purpose." I think it should be "suits their purpose".
It is just the kind of petty mistake that some will pick you up on and try to use to your discredit.
I think I saw a few others further down as well, but I leave it to other pedants to find them.
Apart from these trivial things I think you have created a great document there.
Cheers.
Andy.
BE PEDEANT

If there is one thing I haven't been getting enough, it's feedback and pointing out how I am slaughtering the english language with each sentence I type.
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Old 15th August 2006, 08:56 AM   #60
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Just another to add - one of the early ones I was exposed to. You could have quite probably already included it - dont have time to check your pdf at the moment.

CLAIM:

Investigators were not allowed on site at ground zero until after all the steel had been shipped off to China for recycling. Thus there was no steel available for investigation.

-Andrew
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Old 15th August 2006, 10:36 AM   #61
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Page 7 : This section worries me a little. Having said that CTers tend to attack the source instead of what the source says, you then go on to attack the source. While everything you say is entirely true it does sound a little hypocritical.

Page 9 : In paragraph 2, "...It like the WTC used..." should read "It, like the WTC, used...". I think paragraph 3 should be brown as it appears to be a quote.

Page 10 : Last paragraph of the quote says "I equate it to the building cowing down" which I assume should be "coming down".

Page 18 : The title says "instead it fell straight down" which should probably be "they fell straight down".

Page 20 : The section on "squibs" doesn't mention that a controled demo will set off explosives before the building falls over, rather than during the collapse when the "squins" are seen.

Page 23 : The phrase "Last but not lead..." is presumably meant to be "Last but not least...". Or a really bad pun.

Page 27 : Paragraph one says "...(And there may be rubble below that, and the building may be intact higher higher up)...". Too many highers.

Didn't notice anything else. You call 47 pages a quick breakdown?

Edit : Maybe I should chek my own spelling occasionally.
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Old 15th August 2006, 10:52 AM   #62
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Quote:
Page 27 : Paragraph one says "...(And there may be rubble below that, and the building may be intact higher higher up)...". Too many highers.
Make the pie higher.
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Old 15th August 2006, 11:13 AM   #63
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A very oft touted rubbish theory is that the WTC2 top section could only fall through the intact section below (rather than toppling straight over, into the streets) is if the core was destroyed by explosives, thereby removing the resistance and allowing the top section to fall through. Unfortunately for them, it's an absolute non starter, since an enormous 70 storey section of the core stood momentarily after the main collapse.
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Old 16th August 2006, 11:31 AM   #64
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Old 16th August 2006, 11:56 AM   #65
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By the way, anyone have any site that I can point to that people who arrived late to a flight does not record them on the flight manifest (mark bingham)
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Old 16th August 2006, 03:18 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
By the way, anyone have any site that I can point to that people who arrived late to a flight does not record them on the flight manifest (mark bingham)
This might shed a little light why lists are often incorrect. But I'll bet an e-mail to Mr. Erickson would pin it
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/trans..._twa_7-24.html

JIM LEHRER: Why was the--why is the--just go through the mechanics of this for us, Mr. Erickson, so we can understand--why is the passenger manifest, the official passenger manifest of Flight 800 or any flight of TWA or any other airline not accurate when it--when the flight--when the plane takes off?

MR. ERICKSON: Well, a number of things--things happen. You may have people that are taken off the airplane and moved to other flights. That, indeed, happened in this case. There are a number of--

JIM LEHRER: In other words--excuse me--on 800 there were names on the official passenger list who were not, in fact, on that plane, is that right?

MR. ERICKSON: There were names on the, on the original manifest that did not, indeed, go on the flight. There were also a number of employees that use ticket lists, travel to get on the flight, so what we really had to do was to assemble from a variety of lists, from the manifest, from the baggage list, from the Immigration's list, we check all these. If they were all the same, there would have been no problem, but they, indeed, were different, and we wanted to desperately make sure that people weren’t getting informed, that they had lost someone that indeed wasn’t on the flight.

JIM LEHRER: How did you determine, for instance, if somebody’s name turned up on the master list, how did you determine that that person wasn’t, in fact, on that airplane when there were no bodies to look at, particularly the first twenty-four hours, forty-eight hours, et cetera?

MR. ERICKSON: Well, of course, we match it against the, the baggage list. The baggage list is very accurate but not everybody checks a bag, so not everybody is on that list, but, but we go through a variety of techniques. We’ll check the boarding passes from all the different stations that people may have started to, to connect to the, to this flight, and assemble it all through the course of the night to make sure that it’s accurate, it’s been submitted to the NTSB, and then we start notification which began at about 8 AM.

JIM LEHRER: That’s 8 AM the next day.

MR. ERICKSON: Correct.

JIM LEHRER: Were there cases where people flew under different names?

MR. ERICKSON: There were several cases where, where people either through a divorce or separation situation were under different names. That confused the issue a little bit. It’s a complex--it’s a complex situation that we worked through as quickly as we could. We’d like to see it improve.


I should also add he was so late, the United attendants had to reopen the door to the boarding ramp and let him on the plane. But still that may not be the reason why he wasn't on that jpg. list

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Old 16th August 2006, 05:35 PM   #67
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Just a thought on 93! If I remember right? Pan Am Locherbee(sp) was blown up in mid air. It had rather large pieces, not small. Because it did not smash into the ground, at high speeds!

DT
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Old 18th August 2006, 10:41 AM   #68
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I really want to thank Gumboot for writing up a long but informative article on NORAD. I will be posting it as a seperate document because it's very long one and will link it.

By the way, any willing hosts able to host this guide? I plan on having it on HTML format (like Gravy's Guide) as well as a PDF version.
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Old 18th August 2006, 01:19 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
I really want to thank Gumboot for writing up a long but informative article on NORAD. I will be posting it as a seperate document because it's very long one and will link it.

By the way, any willing hosts able to host this guide? I plan on having it on HTML format (like Gravy's Guide) as well as a PDF version.
i can host it for you
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Old 18th August 2006, 05:45 PM   #70
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Goody

Think you can handle the bandwidth? It has a lot of pictures
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Old 18th August 2006, 05:53 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
Goody

Think you can handle the bandwidth? It has a lot of pictures
im pretty sure, i have alot of transfer to spare
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Old 18th August 2006, 06:58 PM   #72
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Okay, moving onto Flight 93.

The 8-mile debris, explainations?

And anything from a missile expert if it did hit Flight 93.

And what about the hole? Any reasonable sources for that one?
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Old 18th August 2006, 09:01 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
Okay, moving onto Flight 93.

The 8-mile debris, explainations?

And anything from a missile expert if it did hit Flight 93.

And what about the hole? Any reasonable sources for that one?
The debris found 8 miles away was paper.
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Old 18th August 2006, 09:16 PM   #74
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And where is the source for this?

I need zee sources otherwise it will look like I am making **** up.
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Old 18th August 2006, 10:55 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
You know FAQs? I'm doing a FDT for 9/11.

All I need is some people to slap in a theory or two, and perhaps a source. I'll deal with the answers (although if it's somewhat complex, post it here).

So if you have any theories that are commonly bought in message boards by idiots, post it here and I may add it to the list.

Pictures will also do.
Marky, can I make a suggestion? Don't take this the wrong way I enjoyed SLC because Avery and his merry men are such morons, but I think if you want to reach a wider swath you need to drop the mocking routine. That was the one thing that turned me off personally about SLC is your seeming personal attacks of the creators, now I think they're a bunch of douche bags too, but I think the personal attacks might serve to alienate those on the fence. That's just my $0.02
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Old 19th August 2006, 12:04 AM   #76
gumboot
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Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
And anything from a missile expert if it did hit Flight 93.

We can rule out a heat-seeking missile...

According to the FDR from UA93, both engines were running normally (and attached to the plane) at 70% thrust at the moment of impact.

The NTSB FDR report for UA93 is here.

For laymen, someone on a professional pilot's forum has provided the key specs at impact here.

According to the Flight Data Recorder from UA93, it impacted the ground at about 500kts (575 MPH) in a 40 degree nose down attitude, with a 150 degree roll angle to starboard.

Quote:
A few observations from the FDR data at IMPACT;

1. Cabin pressure - NORMAL
2. Hydraulics - NORMAL
3. Cargo fire - NORMAL
4. Smoke - NORMAL
5. Engines - RUNNING
6. Engine RPM (N1) 70%
7. Fuel pressure - NORMAL
8. Engine vibration - LO

9. Wind direction - WEST
10. Wind speed - 25 kts

11. Pitch angle - 40 deg down
12. Airspeed - 500 kts
13. Heading - 180 deg
14. Roll angle - 150 deg right
15. AoA - 20 deg negative
-Andrew
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Old 19th August 2006, 12:08 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Dog Town View Post
Just a thought on 93! If I remember right? Pan Am Locherbee(sp) was blown up in mid air. It had rather large pieces, not small. Because it did not smash into the ground, at high speeds!

DT
And at least two people in Pan Am Flight 103 survived the impact with the ground - a flight attendant was found alive, but died shortly after, and a male passenger was also found alive - medical personnel believed he probably would have survived if he had been found earlier.

Not to mention the debris field covered over 800 sq km. Other similar airborne break ups routinely produce debris fields covering hundreds of kilometers.

I would not be overly surprised to discover debris had landed 8 miles away from a ground impact at 500 Kt.

-Andrew

ETA. Sorry, the lockerbie wreckage covered 845 sq mi, or 2189 km^2.
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Last edited by gumboot; 19th August 2006 at 12:13 AM.
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Old 19th August 2006, 12:21 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Class View Post
The debris found 8 miles away was paper.
That's correct. Some pieces of paper, some bits of nylon, all found downwind from the crash site. Nothing unusual.
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Old 19th August 2006, 03:16 PM   #79
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Marky, would you mind if I PM'd you a list of spelling corrections? I was a proofreader in an earlier career and could help you clean it up a bit. The content, by the way, is outstanding.
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Old 19th August 2006, 06:08 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
Marky, would you mind if I PM'd you a list of spelling corrections? I was a proofreader in an earlier career and could help you clean it up a bit. The content, by the way, is outstanding.
Be my guest
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