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Tags month , pounds , dog

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Old 10th August 2006, 03:56 PM   #1
nimzov
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My dog has to loose 20 pounds in a month.

My dog has hip dysplasia and he needs to loose weight.

According to the vet, he needs to loose 20 pounds in a month !
He's a Labrador weighing 105 pounds. Does this sound reasonable to you. Loose 20% of your weight in a month.

I'm 190, If I lost 35-40 pounds in a month I thing my health would be in jeopardy and everyone else's around me.

Does 20 pounds make sense ?

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Old 10th August 2006, 04:32 PM   #2
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The person best equipped to answer the question is the vet, because that person has actually seen the dog.

I have seen animals that were so over conditioned ("over conditoned" being a nice way to say FAT) that it was highly detrimental to the animal's health and I have even seen animals die from obesity. It is entirely possible that your dog needs to lose 20 lbs, but again - ask the vet, who can actually see the dog and assess its condition. If you don't trust the first vet, take your dog to another vet.

All people on the internet can do is guess.
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Old 10th August 2006, 05:15 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Amapola View Post
The person best equipped to answer the question is the vet, because that person has actually seen the dog.

I have seen animals that were so over conditioned ("over conditoned" being a nice way to say FAT) that it was highly detrimental to the animal's health and I have even seen animals die from obesity. It is entirely possible that your dog needs to lose 20 lbs, but again - ask the vet, who can actually see the dog and assess its condition. If you don't trust the first vet, take your dog to another vet.

All people on the internet can do is guess.
Hi Amapola.

Of course, I have seen the vet and will put the dog on the diet. But I am also asking for opinions of people who maybe had a similar experience.

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Old 10th August 2006, 06:11 PM   #4
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My black lab weighed 75 lbs when he died at the age of 16. He never had hip problems as I always kept is weight around this figure.
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Old 10th August 2006, 06:30 PM   #5
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nimzov, in your example of figuring the percentage of weight the dog needs to lose, it's hard to know how much a dog of that particular build, size and so on, actually ought to weigh.

Your example of you being 190 and losing 20% of your weight is probably right on as far as it causing you problems. But you see, some people weigh 375 and need to lose close to 50% of that weight (for example). 20% would simply be an excellent start. So I think it would depend on just how overweight your dog actually is, for the size, build and bone structure of that individual dog.

Glad to hear you are putting the dog on the diet though - I know hip dysplasia can be pure misery for a dog. It sounds like you are following the right course.
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Old 10th August 2006, 06:55 PM   #6
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Dog fat has 3500 calories per pound, I assume, like people fat. 20 pounds would put him into negative consumption, 2300 calories per day. wouldn't it? Meaning, little food, lots of exercise? Can a 100# dog do that much work?

Like people, who claim a diet lost them 70 pounds in one month. That's about 7,000 calories per day loss. That means they would have had to burn 7k /day more than they ate. How much were they eating brefore? 11,000 per day?
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Old 10th August 2006, 07:02 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Dog fat has 3500 calories per pound, I assume, like people fat. 20 pounds would put him into negative consumption, 2300 calories per day. wouldn't it? Meaning, little food, lots of exercise? Can a 100# dog do that much work?

Like people, who claim a diet lost them 70 pounds in one month. That's about 7,000 calories per day loss. That means they would have had to burn 7k /day more than they ate. How much were they eating brefore? 11,000 per day?
To consider what you say we need to know the age and activity level of the dog right now. In my experience with an older lab, the dog was not as active as he was as a younger animal. In fact from about age 10 he was really lazy and just loved to eat and sleep ....so if he wasn't subject to food restrictions he'd baloon up to over a hundred pounds and that's way to much for this breed and its hips.
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Old 10th August 2006, 07:14 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by casebro
Dog fat has 3500 calories per pound, I assume, like people fat. 20 pounds would put him into negative consumption, 2300 calories per day. wouldn't it? Meaning, little food, lots of exercise? Can a 100# dog do that much work?

Like people, who claim a diet lost them 70 pounds in one month. That's about 7,000 calories per day loss. That means they would have had to burn 7k /day more than they ate. How much were they eating brefore? 11,000 per day?

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard View Post
To consider what you say we need to know the age and activity level of the dog right now. In my experience with an older lab, the dog was not as active as he was as a younger animal. In fact from about age 10 he was really lazy and just loved to eat and sleep ....so if he wasn't subject to food restrictions he'd baloon up to over a hundred pounds and that's way to much for this breed and its hips.
Hi.

My dog is 8 years old and has severe hip dysplasia. He cannot exercise much; 3-4 short walks a day. The vet says to keep the exercise level low. So the only thing left to lose the weight is the diet.

In 2000 he weight 85 pounds, so I guess he is now obese.

Monday he got a shot of cartrophen and it looks like its helping him.

nimzo

Last edited by nimzov; 10th August 2006 at 07:37 PM.
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Old 10th August 2006, 11:44 PM   #9
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Yeah it is fast to loose that weight in a month. I am not so sure it is unhealthy to loose weight that fast but it is probably unnecessary. Perhaps your vet is overstating the goal to try to get you serious about weight loss.
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Old 11th August 2006, 02:25 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Amapola View Post
I have seen animals that were so over conditioned ("over conditoned" being a nice way to say FAT)...
OK, I'll start calling the, er, larger of our two cats (aka "lardibeast") "over conditioned".
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Old 11th August 2006, 03:12 AM   #11
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I have 2 fat cats. The 2 things they love most, are eating and watching the Littermaid cat box clean itself. I will not deny these 2 cats their main pleasure in life. Is it length of life or quality of life that is important?
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Old 11th August 2006, 03:24 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by The Painter View Post
I have 2 fat cats. The 2 things they love most, are eating and watching the Littermaid cat box clean itself. I will not deny these 2 cats their main pleasure in life. Is it length of life or quality of life that is important?
Thing is, as a cat, they will see food and eat it. If you give them more of their favourite foods, most will eat that too. My cat, for example, has no detectable limit for sausage meat. To her, it's just something that she loves to eat and sees no reason why she shouldn't.

As a human being, I understand that eating too much of the wrong things is a bad thing. It exposes animals to the risk of diabetes, joint problems, heart problems, all sorts of problems. To understand that but to keep overfeeding sounds borderline cruelty to me: You know it's bad but you keep providing it. Would you let a child eat just what they wanted, purely because they enjoy it?

Your pets can have good quality of life without overfeeding. It's shouldn't be an either/or situation.
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Old 11th August 2006, 03:48 AM   #13
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These cats do not get people food. One can a day and dry food is always out. They just pick at the dry food. Their wieght problem comes from lack of exercise, not overfeeding. They are house cats.
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Old 11th August 2006, 03:53 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by The Painter View Post
These cats do not get people food. One can a day and dry food is always out. They just pick at the dry food. Their wieght problem comes from lack of exercise, not overfeeding. They are house cats.
That's not quite right. Their weight problem is a result of over eating for the amount of exercise they do.
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Old 11th August 2006, 06:18 AM   #15
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One of my cats weighs 19 lbs. Last week he began vomiting every time he ate. A visit to the vet and bloodwork revealed that his kidney levels were a touch above normal and his glucose was halfway between top normal and diabetic. The vet speculated that the levels could have been due to the stress of the all the vomiting. After two days on a special bland diet and another round of blood work, all of his levels were back to normal. So he's okay for now, but we know he's obese. I'm taking that false alarm as a wake-up call and we have ordered a baby scale and are measuring out his food. He was clearly depressed by having his Cat Chow withheld for two days, but at least he can continue to have what he loves, he'll just have less of it. He'll adjust and be healthy as well as happy. It's rough enough dealing pet health problems that are beyond one's control (believe me, I know), so why put a pet at risk of problems that are preventable?

ETA: I don't mean to contribute to the derail of nimzov's thread, so I'll add that while it is usually considered unhealthy for an animal to loose such a large amount of weight in a short period of time, nimzov's vet may be choosing the less risky of two risky situations. It may be that the weight loss carries less risk than the result of the hip dysplasia. My mother-in-law had surgery performed on her cockapoo when it suddenly became unable to walk to due hip dysplasia. The alternative was euthanasia. Fortunately the surgery, which was quite expensive, worked rather well, and the dog was walking again (although with a bit of a waddle) and even running and lived something like 6 more years to the venerable age of 15. Dogdoctor may be correct in that the vet may have simply set a rather liberal goal to emphasize the urgency to reduce the dog's weight.
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Old 11th August 2006, 07:29 AM   #16
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Just cut 20lbs off the butt.
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Old 11th August 2006, 07:53 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by The Painter View Post
I have 2 fat cats. The 2 things they love most, are eating and watching the Littermaid cat box clean itself. I will not deny these 2 cats their main pleasure in life. Is it length of life or quality of life that is important?
But in nimzov's dog's case, the quality of life is not there. Hip dysplasia is horrifically painful for the dog. The dog will continue to eat as much as possible; without human intervention to provide the dog with a more correct diet the dog will become even more miserable. nimzov is doing the absolutely correct thing by putting the dog on the diet.

If your cats are obese, and do not have diabetes, heart disease, painful joints or any of the other problems associated with obesity, good for them. I hope it remains that way. It does not always work out that smoothly for every animal, however.
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Old 11th August 2006, 07:53 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by nimzov View Post
Does 20 pounds make sense ?
I'm not a vet, but this probably doesn't make sense for ANY mammal.

I also predict that if you put the dog in such a strict diet then he's probably going to eat your arm.
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Old 11th August 2006, 08:05 AM   #19
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Nimzov, I'm dealing with some of the same problems with my pets.

One of my German Shepherds has hip dysplasia and some difficulties with arthritis in his spine. Another of them is a bit overweight. The third had an operation for ununited anconeal processes when she was a pup, so she has slight elbow joint problems. As you know, with any joint problems, it's important to keep the weight down, as excess flab will only exacerbate the problems.

To keep my dogs' weight right down, I changed to a "senior/lite" version of dog food (I feed my dogs on complete, dry food - James Wellbeloved brand), and stick VERY strictly to the quantity guidelines on the pack. To my surprise, when I first measured out the correct amount, I thought "Wow - that's not very much!" which I guess was a good indication I had been overfeeding them up to that point! And, of course, I cut out ALL treats and scraps.

As for exercise, if you can arrange it, take your dog to a canine hydrotherapy pool. I take my boy with hip problems to one once a week, and it's working fabulously. His pain and discomfort have quite clearly reduced since his muscles have built up through the swimming. He loves his time playing in the pool and I'm told that 5-10 minutes swimming is the equivalent to taking a dog on a 5 mile walk....and much gentler on his joints, too. From talking to the lady who runs the pool, it seems that the majority of her doggy clients are coming because of joint problems and/or obesity, so it would be perfect for your dog. It's a great (and fun!) way to get some weight off your dog, and will probably work faster than walks alone, especially if his age and general fitness limit the amount of walking he can do. The one drawback is the cost - I pay £15 a session (around $25 US) whch is why I can only take the dog who (IMO) needs it the most.

I would definitely recommend you look into it.

Good luck!
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Old 11th August 2006, 09:17 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Fengirl View Post
As for exercise, if you can arrange it, take your dog to a canine hydrotherapy pool. I take my boy with hip problems to one once a week, and it's working fabulously. His pain and discomfort have quite clearly reduced since his muscles have built up through the swimming. He loves his time playing in the pool and I'm told that 5-10 minutes swimming is the equivalent to taking a dog on a 5 mile walk....and much gentler on his joints, too. From talking to the lady who runs the pool, it seems that the majority of her doggy clients are coming because of joint problems and/or obesity, so it would be perfect for your dog. It's a great (and fun!) way to get some weight off your dog, and will probably work faster than walks alone, especially if his age and general fitness limit the amount of walking he can do. The one drawback is the cost - I pay £15 a session (around $25 US) whch is why I can only take the dog who (IMO) needs it the most.

I would definitely recommend you look into it.

Good luck!
Hello.

I has already look for a poll where my dog could go swimming but unfortunately I could not find any. The vet could not help me finding one.

nimzo
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Old 11th August 2006, 10:28 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by nimzov View Post
Hello.

I has already look for a poll where my dog could go swimming but unfortunately I could not find any. The vet could not help me finding one.

nimzo
That's a shame, because it would be perfect for your dog's needs.

You could try getting in touch with a local breed club to see if any other Lab owners can recommend anywhere. Hip dysplasia is common in many breeds, (esp. Labradors and GSDs) so there must be a lot of other owners in your area in the same situation.
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Old 13th August 2006, 08:23 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by nimzov View Post
I has already look for a poll where my dog could go swimming but unfortunately I could not find any.
Three words,

possible............business................idea

Especially because dogs (like people) aren't getting any lighter
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Old 13th August 2006, 09:37 AM   #23
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If your dog has loose weight then tighten it down w/ a screwdriver or wrench or whatever.

Now, if he has to lose weight put him on a diet.

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Old 13th August 2006, 10:22 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
If your dog has loose weight then tighten it down w/ a screwdriver or wrench or whatever.

Now, if he has to lose weight put him on a diet.

Sorry but English is not my first language.

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Old 13th August 2006, 11:19 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by nimzov View Post
Sorry but English is not my first language.

nimzo
OK, I'll give you a pass. Dogdoctor, what's your excuse?
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Old 13th August 2006, 03:13 PM   #26
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Hi Nimzov,

I'm a veterinary orthopedic specialist in Alabama. I've never heard of cartrophen, but it sounds similar to a drug here in the States. From your link, it appears to be in the same family. These glycosaminoglycan drugs are sort of on the edge of respectability in veterinary medicine. Some vets swear by them, some swear at them. I'm one of the latter ones. The only claims they make that can be backed up by double blinded studies is that they have some anti-inflamatory effect and they can protect undamaged cartilage in a healthy joint. As far as I know, no studies have shown that they can repair damaged cartilage, or reverse arthritic damage in dogs suffering from degenerative joint disease such as hip dysplasia.

In my opinion, losing 20 lbs in 1 month is unrealistic. There is no way for me to say whether 20 lbs is too much or too little without seeing your dog, but as a general rule, dogs with severe hip dysplasia should be "skinny enough to make your neighbors talk badly about you", as my masters professor used to tell me. A reasonable goal is for your dog to lose 2 lbs a week. You need to exercise him lightly as much as he will tolerate. Several very short walks a day if necessary. During the first 3 to 4 weeks, depend heavily on NSAIDS such as Carprofen as long as your dog has no liver disease. Once you get about 10 lbs or so off, the exercise will become easier, and he will lose weight much faster. The key is consistency and perserverance. It has been my experience that diet alone will almost never remove significant amounts of weight from a dog, unless you are essentially starving them. Some exercise is mandatory. Your dog should be weighed weekly on the same scale to make sure you are meeting your goal. When you can pass your hands along the sides of his chest and feel his ribs (not count them, just feel they are there) without pressing inward, then he has probably lost enough weight.

Once you have reached that goal, have him re-evaluated if necessary. If you have big bucks to spend, get at least one of his hips replaced with an artificial hip once you get the weight off. The surgery is about 98% successful in returning full function to the hip joint, and the joint lasts about 7 to 10 years in a sedentary patient. Definitely the way to go, but it costs about $3000.00 per hip (American dollars) where I live. Substantially more in the northern states.

Hope this helps.
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Old 14th August 2006, 09:16 AM   #27
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Why does it have to be in a month? If his health is that poor, the strain might very well kill him.

In any case, since you control 100% of the food he eats (put cat dishes and the kitchen trash can up on the counter, if necessary) it shouldn't be that difficult an issue.

I did read somewhere larger dogs need to be fed twice a day, but I guess those could be small meals.

And what works for humans should work for dogs -- avoid food, especially a big meal, in the evenings or before bedtime.
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Old 14th August 2006, 12:01 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
I did read somewhere larger dogs need to be fed twice a day, but I guess those could be small meals.
This is not for nutritional reasons, but rather to keep them from gorging food in one big meal a day. This causes stretching of the ligaments that hold the stomach in place, which can allow the stomach to rotate on its axis inside the abdomen. The rotation traps air and food in the stomach and shuts off blood supply to the stomach and spleen -- a life threatening surgical emergency.
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Old 14th August 2006, 12:29 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by John Bentley View Post
This is not for nutritional reasons, but rather to keep them from gorging food in one big meal a day. This causes stretching of the ligaments that hold the stomach in place, which can allow the stomach to rotate on its axis inside the abdomen. The rotation traps air and food in the stomach and shuts off blood supply to the stomach and spleen -- a life threatening surgical emergency.
That's exactly why I try to spread my meals out over the course of the day.




eta again for Lisa...

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Old 14th August 2006, 05:58 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by John Bentley View Post
Hi Nimzov,

I'm a veterinary orthopedic specialist in Alabama. I've never heard of cartrophen, but it sounds similar to a drug here in the States. From your link, it appears to be in the same family. These glycosaminoglycan drugs are sort of on the edge of respectability in veterinary medicine. Some vets swear by them, some swear at them. I'm one of the latter ones. The only claims they make that can be backed up by double blinded studies is that they have some anti-inflamatory effect and they can protect undamaged cartilage in a healthy joint. As far as I know, no studies have shown that they can repair damaged cartilage, or reverse arthritic damage in dogs suffering from degenerative joint disease such as hip dysplasia.

In my opinion, losing 20 lbs in 1 month is unrealistic. There is no way for me to say whether 20 lbs is too much or too little without seeing your dog, but as a general rule, dogs with severe hip dysplasia should be "skinny enough to make your neighbors talk badly about you", as my masters professor used to tell me. A reasonable goal is for your dog to lose 2 lbs a week. You need to exercise him lightly as much as he will tolerate. Several very short walks a day if necessary. During the first 3 to 4 weeks, depend heavily on NSAIDS such as Carprofen as long as your dog has no liver disease. Once you get about 10 lbs or so off, the exercise will become easier, and he will lose weight much faster. The key is consistency and perserverance. It has been my experience that diet alone will almost never remove significant amounts of weight from a dog, unless you are essentially starving them. Some exercise is mandatory. Your dog should be weighed weekly on the same scale to make sure you are meeting your goal. When you can pass your hands along the sides of his chest and feel his ribs (not count them, just feel they are there) without pressing inward, then he has probably lost enough weight.

Once you have reached that goal, have him re-evaluated if necessary. If you have big bucks to spend, get at least one of his hips replaced with an artificial hip once you get the weight off. The surgery is about 98% successful in returning full function to the hip joint, and the joint lasts about 7 to 10 years in a sedentary patient. Definitely the way to go, but it costs about $3000.00 per hip (American dollars) where I live. Substantially more in the northern states.

Hope this helps.
Thanks John for this very useful information and thanks to everyone who answered.

I had an apointment at the vet tonight and my dog lost 4 pounds! in a week! 105 to 101 pounds.

Of course I cut the treats. Half a dentabone for the week, I cut the raw hide dog bone to zero (I use to give him a lot of these).

I only gave him the following diet: 4 cups of Royal Canin calorie control, plus 2 and a half carots and half an apple a day. That's it! And he does not seem to take it too miserably

Here he is and here.

nimzo
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