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Old 14th August 2006, 09:08 AM   #1
Hishighness
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Non-American Conspiracy Theories?

Maybe it's just because I live in Canada and am bombarded by American TV and culture, but it seems to me the vast majority of Conspiracy Theories in the civilized world are American ones. In fact, I can't think of any Canadian or French or British ones off the top of my head. The only international, first world conspiracy theory I can think of is people denying the holocaust. Of course I'm not a CT expert so if you know of any others please post them.

Why is that though? Are Americans just an inherantly distrustful culture as a result of the manner in which their country was born?
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Old 14th August 2006, 09:12 AM   #2
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I think it might have to do with the fact that United States is the most powerful nation in the world.

The "Harper" theory died within a week. I'm really surprised it hasn't been talked about it more.
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Old 14th August 2006, 09:14 AM   #3
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In Britain we have the "Princess Diana was Murdered" conspiracy theory.
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Old 14th August 2006, 09:15 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Mancunian View Post
In Britain we have the "Princess Diana was Murdered" conspiracy theory.
Also, the pre-9/11 London bombings being pulled off by the NWO/Illuminati/Masons/whatever.
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Old 14th August 2006, 09:20 AM   #5
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The Illuminati are based in America, so obviously they do more work at home and are at more risk of accidently leaving some evidence lying around.
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Old 14th August 2006, 09:21 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by TK0001 View Post
Also, the pre-9/11 London bombings being pulled off by the NWO/Illuminati/Masons/whatever.
I've never heard that.

We had the whole Jack The Ripper/Royal Family thing. Actually, the Royal Family's quite a good source for conspiracies.
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Old 14th August 2006, 09:25 AM   #7
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Given America's modern cultural dominance, military might and the almost unique mixture of secret and security services which are prepared to get up to some crazy things (CIA LSD experiments, stargate etc) with an openness and commitment to freedom of information which is not seem in the rest of the security and intelligence communities*, it's not surprising that so many CTs are American, even those that deal with non American incidents tend to be blamed on the CIA. The only other government which is almost always deemed to be involved is Israel. Partially because Mossad have been prepared to carry out high profile and controversial operations, and partially because of good old-fashioned anti-Semitic paranoia.
Looking for a British CT I would point you towards Mohammed Al Fyad's accusations of a Prince of Wales/ MI5/ Mossad plot to Murder his son and his lover, Princess Diana. David Ike is also a "good" source fro non US CTs, although I'm sure that the Americans get a look in there somewhere.

* Whilst studying for my degree in modern history, I was able to get information through American sources about British operations, against British subjects carried out on British territory, which has not yet been released to British citizens by the UK government.
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Old 14th August 2006, 09:45 AM   #8
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Well, we have the Shag Harbour, NS UFO crash in '68.
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Old 14th August 2006, 09:53 AM   #9
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Do cropcircles count? Didn't that phenomena originate in England?
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Old 14th August 2006, 10:15 AM   #10
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I wouldn't consider crop circles, that's not really a "conspiracy" as much as it is alien stuff.
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Old 14th August 2006, 10:16 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
I think it might have to do with the fact that United States is the most powerful nation in the world.

The "Harper" theory died within a week. I'm really surprised it hasn't been talked about it more.
Ya, Harper's hiding his true intentions until he gets a majority. Then we'll be just as screwed as Jesusland.
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Old 14th August 2006, 11:03 AM   #12
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There is a conspiracy theory about the 1999 apartment building explosions in russia. It was supposedly FSB not Chechens that were behind those explosions.

http://eng.terror99.ru/

There's atleast two films made on this subject.

"Disbelief"
Quote:
A fatal bomb blast in a Moscow apartment building ignites a fury of questions about terrorism, shadow politics, and post-Soviet intrigue in Disbelief; a film as much about the high art of political deception as it is about violence and human tragedy. The bombing on September 9, 1999, of a nine-story working-class apartment complex in Moscow was quickly blamed on Chechen terrorists. But was it their crime? Or did the Russian secret service deflect its own responsibility for the bombing on the Chechens to heighten national fear and hysteria and justify Russia's subsequent military attack on the breakaway republic?
http://www.disbelief-film.com/indexDE.htm

A video clip of Disbeliefs director Andrei Nekrasof speaking in Helsinki:
http://11syyskuu.net/video/andrei_nekrasov.wmv


Another film about the explosions: "Assassination of Russia" can watched here:
http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk..._cover-ups.htm

Quote:
A 52-minute documentary, using footage originally shot by NTV. The film examines the September explosions, and focuses on the foiled bombing in Ryazan on September 22, 1999. It puts a human face onto the tragedy- you will hear from those who were there, saw it, and lived through it. The film vividly portrays the inconsistencies in government officials' reactions to Ryazan, and their later attempts to consistently blame the Chechens. Questions about the possible involvement of the special services are raised.
Transparences Productions, France, 2000
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Old 14th August 2006, 11:14 AM   #13
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Around the Baltic Sea, some believe the sinking of M/S Estonia was a conspiracy, by either Russian or Swedish armed forces. Funny thing is, there actually are questionable issues about the incident.

Edit: replaced the entirely irrelevant link.
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Old 14th August 2006, 11:16 AM   #14
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How about the Frenchman Thierry Meyssan and his 9/11 conspiracy book?
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Old 14th August 2006, 11:20 AM   #15
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He is french, but it's an American conspiracy.
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Old 14th August 2006, 11:20 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by EBU View Post
How about the Frenchman Thierry Meyssan and his 9/11 conspiracy book?
Doesn't that count as an American conspiracy theory?

Almost all of the 9/11 CTs originate from abroad anyways (Middle East).
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Old 14th August 2006, 11:23 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Kaarjuus View Post
Around the Baltic Sea, some believe the sinking of M/S Estonia was a conspiracy, by either Russian or Swedish armed forces. Funny thing is, there actually are questionable issues about the incident.
What questionable issues?
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Old 14th August 2006, 11:35 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by chacal View Post
What questionable issues?
Swedish response, mainly. And them pushing to have the wreckage covered with concrete ASAP.
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Old 14th August 2006, 11:52 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Kaarjuus View Post
Swedish response, mainly. And them pushing to have the wreckage covered with concrete ASAP.
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Old 14th August 2006, 11:54 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Hishighness View Post
Maybe it's just because I live in Canada and am bombarded by American TV and culture, but it seems to me the vast majority of Conspiracy Theories in the civilized world are American ones. In fact, I can't think of any Canadian or French or British ones off the top of my head. The only international, first world conspiracy theory I can think of is people denying the holocaust. Of course I'm not a CT expert so if you know of any others please post them.

Why is that though? Are Americans just an inherantly distrustful culture as a result of the manner in which their country was born?
Don't you know the universe revolves around America!!!!

Just joking since you couldn't hear the tone in my voice
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Old 14th August 2006, 11:57 AM   #21
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Unfortunatly it does. Notice how much crappier the world is since Dubya took office. I know I'm payin a hell of a lot more for gas and food, how about you?
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Old 14th August 2006, 12:03 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Hishighness View Post
In fact, I can't think of any Canadian or French or British ones off the top of my head.
I would say that definately the sponsorship scandal was a real Canadian conspiracy.
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Old 14th August 2006, 12:09 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by chacal View Post
Come on. Systembolaget sucks. Standing in queues sucks. Having decent politicians being murdered by nuts and probably drug addicts sucks.

Sweden, on the other hand, rocks.
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Old 14th August 2006, 12:43 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Hishighness View Post
Unfortunatly it does. Notice how much crappier the world is since Dubya took office. I know I'm payin a hell of a lot more for gas and food, how about you?
Clearly the most important considerations in a world where a religious group is running amok, bombing, shooting and beheading at will, and threatening democracies throughout the civilized world with destruction.

God [sic], are people ignorant and self-centered.

P.S. I immensely enjoyed your attempt to analyze why America seems to be the hotbed for conspiracy theories. What particular circumstance of America's "birth" would lend itself to the formation of conspiracy theories?
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Old 14th August 2006, 12:44 PM   #25
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Never mind the question. I just noticed the original poster claims to be Canadian.
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Old 14th August 2006, 05:22 PM   #26
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I have seen a documentary on the killing of Olof Palme which suggested it might have been far right elements in the police force.

Other conspiracy theories include:

The British royal family are drug runners who kept a werewolf (or werewolf like) heir to the throne locked up in the Tower (conflating two seperate theories).

The Elders of Zion have written a book (why do secret organisations feel the need to document their nefariousness) and are responsible for the rise of liberalism, Nazi ideology, communism etc.
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Old 15th August 2006, 05:40 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by gtc View Post
I have seen a documentary on the killing of Olof Palme which suggested it might have been far right elements in the police force.
Yeah, that and Estonia is the once that comes to mind for me. Otherwise for conspiracy theories in sweden at least seems to be the usual suspects: illuminatu/NWO/the joos controlling governements/the economy/the media/everything, flouridation as a mind control plot, Big Pharma conspiracy coverign up all these wonderful free, natural cures, mobile phones causing cancer but being covered up by companies/gubermint, etc...

The usual stuff in other words.
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Old 15th August 2006, 05:53 AM   #28
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There was an Australian CT about the disappearence of Harold Holt who was our Prime Minister in the early 60's. He went for a swim one day and was never seen again.
Most people believe he either drowned or was taken by sharks, but for a while there was a bizarre theory involving a chinese submarine and a communist plot.
I'll see if I can find a reference.

Well I found lots of references, but this one was the weirdest:
.haroldholt.net/


Thre was also a bit of a CT around Lindy ("That dingo's got my baby)Chamberlain. Some nonsense about Seventh Day Adventists sacrificing babies.

I don't think many people ever took these things seriously.

Last edited by Brainache; 15th August 2006 at 06:07 AM. Reason: posting a link. kind of.
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Old 15th August 2006, 05:56 AM   #29
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The Echelon conspiracy is big in the EU.

Probably because its real.. but you can't prove it, so meh.
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Old 15th August 2006, 06:00 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by westphalia View Post
What particular circumstance of America's "birth" would lend itself to the formation of conspiracy theories?
I don't think that it's going overboard to suggest that many of the founding legends of the United States are based on a distrust of government, whilst this may be a perfectly healthy basis for a political philosophy, it does help to foster CTs.
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Old 15th August 2006, 06:06 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Dazed View Post
The Echelon conspiracy is big in the EU.

Probably because its real.. but you can't prove it, so meh.
Is Echelon really a paranoid conspiracy theory? Which is what we're talking about here, I thought that Echelon was just meant to be some kind of automated CIA communications monitoring system,
and as we know that 1) content filtering technology (for at least some mediums) is readily available
2) the US does have listening posts in the UK and
3) the UK government does hove powers to monitor private communications, and to share those powers with allied nations, I would be very surprised if the CIA (or another US body) wasn't monitoring European communications.
Or am I missing something about the Echelon mythos?
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Old 15th August 2006, 06:06 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Hishighness View Post
Why is that though? Are Americans just an inherantly distrustful culture as a result of the manner in which their country was born?
I think it's a sad commentary on our education system. Our children are taught to score well on tests, and not how to think.

I saw an episode of "30 days" recently where an American worker went to India to work for one of the outsourcing companies that had taken his job away. During his stay, his building had to be evacuated because a famous actor, who had been an advocate for the poor, had died. Naturally, the poor, mostly uneducated masses of India began to riot, most likely because they felt the government was somehow responsible for his death.
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Old 15th August 2006, 07:33 AM   #33
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I believe it's less an issue of Amurrica being the most powerful country in the world as it's a matter of a couple of the offshoots of its strength.... The mass media, and the attention the rest of the world pays to same.

IMO, conspiracy theories need someone with an outlet to take them seriously. I was living in Ottawa in 1970 during the "FLQ Crisis". You can guess we read and heard the news with the same horror, anger, misgivings, etc... as the rest of the country. Fast Forward to May of the following year and hanging with my "hip" brethren in Montreal (had moved there in January), the CT's were hanging there like ripe peaches, just pick your favorite and enjoy it. Pierre Laporte worked for the CIA and they killed him because he was going to go public to "Allo Police!" Cross was really trying to negotiate a separate trade agreement with Quebec, so the RCMP and Pierre Trudeau killed him. Etc....

Why didn't it create a mass movement? No outlet to the general public. There was certainly a large enough counter-culture in Toronto, Ottawa, Vancouver, even Halifax... to plant the seeds, but there was no internet, no serious press coverage, and let's face it, eh?... It's Canada. You can't spread a rumor or CT through 25 million people that easily - not as widely dispersed as you are.

Take NYC as the counterfoil... More than 25 mio in the immediate "commuting" zone, and one of the favored election tactics in the 60's and 70's was "the elevator trick". Just get about fifteen pairs of people to get on elevators in tall buildings during the morning rush hour, and have them whisper, soto voce, "Jeez, I can't believe they're going to cover this up and let that bastard get away with it. She was his own niece, for chrissake, and he's the _________ (insert "governor", "mayor", "borough president" at whim)." By nightfall every taxi driver in the city was talking about going to City Hall to "impeach da bum, dat's what we oughta do"....

I think the only other countries with similar wealth to population ratio and free press and rampant media coverage would be Australia and England. And I know they've both had their own variations on CT's. (No can't recall specifics for Kanagaroo Kountry... bleary eyed pub conversations. But the Lady Di thing is probably going to run for a while.... BTW The Learning Channel really ought to be ashamed of the way the producers overdubbed incredulous toned announcers in that documentary at every commercial break!)
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Old 15th August 2006, 08:01 AM   #34
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New Zealand is founded on a Conspiracy Theory

Our key founding document is the Treaty of Waitangi, but there are issues because the English and Maori versions don't really say the same thing. While the logical answer is:

1) A lot of the concepts didn't have Maori equivelants
2) Those doing the translating weren't exactly brilliant speakers of Maori

Thus resulting in simple translation errors, you'd be surprised at the number of New Zealanders who genuinely believe the British did it on purpose so they could steal all the Maoris' land (an absurd notion given that history clearly shows had the British really wanted it they'd have just taken it).

-Andrew
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Old 15th August 2006, 11:48 AM   #35
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Protocols of Zion? Does that count as a non-American CT?
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Old 15th August 2006, 11:58 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by EBU View Post
Protocols of Zion? Does that count as a non-American CT?
I think so, since its origin was in either Russia or Poland, IIRC.

DR
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Old 15th August 2006, 12:19 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by brodski View Post
Is Echelon really a paranoid conspiracy theory? Which is what we're talking about here, I thought that Echelon was just meant to be some kind of automated CIA communications monitoring system,
and as we know that 1) content filtering technology (for at least some mediums) is readily available
2) the US does have listening posts in the UK and
3) the UK government does hove powers to monitor private communications, and to share those powers with allied nations, I would be very surprised if the CIA (or another US body) wasn't monitoring European communications.
Or am I missing something about the Echelon mythos?
It is a paranoid conspiracy theory, because the US heartily denies its existence, even while the EU is saying 'wtf, stop intercepting all our communications with your stupid echelon'
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Old 15th August 2006, 01:41 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Dazed View Post
It is a paranoid conspiracy theory, because the US heartily denies its existence, even while the EU is saying 'wtf, stop intercepting all our communications with your stupid echelon'
I still don't think it meets the requirements for a PCT, governments have been known to lie in the past, especially about espionage. I can remember when Brittan officially had no secret intelligence, or security service ("Mi6" and "Mi5") Even though we could all see Thames house, and the newly built Vauxhall cross. Would it have been a paranoid conspiracy theory to believe that Mi5 &6 existed, dispute denials?
Echelon may not exist, but US listen posts in Brittan do, and echelon isn't much of a stretch from the confirmed facts.
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Old 15th August 2006, 06:09 PM   #39
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Echelon...

For the record...

It IS real, and it is NOT American. Or at least, not EXCLUSIVELY American.

Echelon is an international communication monitoring system, jointly run by what is termed the "Anglo-American" alliance. This being the United Kingdom, the United States, Australia, Canada and New Zealand.

Sites are independently run by the host nations - the organisation that runs Echelon in New Zealand is called Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB), and YES, they do actually exist, and they in fact advertise jobs just like any other government agency.

The Prime Minister currently holds the intelligence portfolio in cabinet, so GCSB (along with the NZSIS) report directly to Helen Clark.

NSA operate the US Echelon bases and satellites as far as I am aware, but they have absolutely no control over New Zealand's bases, nor anyone else's. New Zealand's bases are responsible for covering the South Pacific. I used to live fairly close to one of them in the Waihopai Valley, in Marlborough. (Waihopai is responsible for satellite communications, while the Tangimoana Station is responsible for radio communications).

Echelon works through what is referred to as the "eyes" system. The number of "eyes" denotes the level of sharing. For example:

The Waihopai Station picks up a transmission in the Pacific from a bunch of terrorists planning to attack a New Zealand ship.

This is "one eye" intel. New Zealand will not share this information with any of the other four Echelon partners.

The Waihopai Station picks up a transmission in the Pacific from a bunch of terrorists planning to attack a British site.

This is "two eyes" intel. New Zealand will share it with the UK, but no one else.

The Waihopai Station picks up a transmission in the Pacific from a bunch of terrorists planning to attack British aircraft flying to the United States.

This is "three eyes" intel. New Zealand will share this with the United States and the United Kingdom, but not Canada or Australia.

And so forth.

It is up to each independent nation to determine how many "eyes" a given piece of intel is given (five being the maximum).

It should also be pointed out that Echelon only intercepts INTERNATIONAL communications, not domestic ones. So a call to your friend overseas might get picked up (as I understand the "fishing" is done by computer now) but a call to your friend across town won't).

-Andrew
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Old 15th August 2006, 10:55 PM   #40
hellaeon
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Most aussie conspiracies are less political and more wooish - eg tassie tiger not being extinct, giant lizards, giant beings in the desert, ufo base in the blue mountains etc.

I read a book back in my days of woo on that kind of stuff.

Now thankfully, the book im currently reading is Bad Astronomy.
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