CTs and Mental Illness

Cleon

King of the Pod People
Cleon
Joined
Aug 28, 2001
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Location
Atlanta, GA
I wonder how much mental illness has to do with CTists.

As some know, I have been involved in the anti-war movement here in Atlanta. There's a guy, whose name I can't recall, who occasionally shows up at events handing out pamphlets about the Royal Normans. This guy is convinced that virtually every powerful person on the planet is descended from some feudal family called the "Royal Normans" who pull the strings in our daily lives. George Bush, Bill Gates, Vladimir Putin, Fidel Castro--according to him, they're all part of the conspiracy. The Illuminati, Knights Templar, the Masons (of course), are all part of the Royal Norman conspiracy.

Now, you talk to this guy for a few minutes, and you get the distinct impression he is seriously ill. (He occasionally admits that he doesn't work, but lives on disability for mental illness.)

So I wonder how many of the CTers suffer from paranoid schizophrenia or other illnesses. Delusions are a large component of schizophrenia symptoms, and a lot of CTs certainly fall into the category of "delusions."

The reasons people buy into CTs are many, I'm sure, and I know very well you can't chalk it all up to mental illness. (Say what you will about Killtown, but there's no evidence that he's ill.) But I imagine there's also considerable overlap there.
 
I think the more unstable mentally one is, the more one tends to start connecting otherwise disparate conspiracy theories (like the person you mentioned).
 
I think there are several categories:
* mentally ill: ex. Christophera, Sir Knight
* stupid: geggy
* malicious: killtown
* uninformed: ? (I know they're out there, but prolly not real vocal)
 
add nesnyc to the mantal illness list

when he said the WTC was built with explosives right in the concrete for its planned destruction 35 years in the future my first though was "what amount of childhood trauma is needed to cause someone to fabricate the fantasy world he currently inhabits"
 
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That chic, Temp has a whole team of psychiatrists if she has one. Mental ill, and need of attention issues!
 
I have a family member with schizophrenia. As well as quite a few hours of volunteer work with the mentally ill. I don't have any formal training in the field, so these are simply a laymans observations.

It's my experience that actual schizophrenic delusions are more random and nonsensical. For example, I knew one victim of the disease who claimed to be a fighter pilot with the indian air force and a former viet cong. He would routinely inform us every day how many enemy aircraft he had shot down the night before. Why india and vietnam? Who knows? It lacked rhyme or reason. He wasn't even of asian descent.

I knew another victim who claimed he was the angel Gabriel and he would spew the strangest gibberish with absolutely no sense and logic to it.

The 9-11 CTs may be absurd on thier face, but they posess an internally consistent logic to them. There is an A to B to C progression to them that is founded on a kind of evidence, albiet that wich is a gross misinterpretation of the evidence. They don't have the random "out of left field" quality of actual schizophrenic hallucinations.

The CTer worldview strikes me as one clouded by emotional desire and ignorance but not madness.

This doesn't rule out the prescence of mentally ill people in the "truth" movment. I just don't see them as the driving force or even a significant minority among the truthers.
 
I knew another victim who claimed he was the angel Gabriel and he would spew the strangest gibberish with absolutely no sense and logic to it.
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Sounds like the bible to me!
 
defaultdotxbe said:
add nesnyc to the mantal illness list

when he said the WTC was built with explosives right in the concrete for its planned destruction 35 years in the future my first though was "what amount of childhood trauma is needed to cause someone to fabricate the fantasy world he currently inhabits"
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I don't think Nesnyc is mentally ill. I think he's like a Fred Phelps type personality. Blinded by a raging hatred. An extreme character flaw, not an actual psychosis. Basically a negative attention junkie from hell.

I would put him and Killtown in both the "stupid" and "malicious" categories that Arkan described.
 
I think some of the of the CT people entered into the conspiracy thought process knowing full well that the conspiracy is false. Their primary goal is to make money any way they can by duping the less intelligent. The same way some people scam old folks with various schemes to relieve them of their pension checks.
 
SOT:

Great comments, and very astute observations.

I do have extensive training and experience with patients that suffer from mental illness.

My observations on most CTers are as follows:

1. Very few, if any are likely to be Schizophrenic. It is hard to deduce whether they have any actual visual or audio hallucinations, without personally interviewing them directly. Very few exhibit Tangental thought or "word Salad" often seen in the acute schizophrenic.

2. I think possibly a few of them could be Bipolar, with Paranoid symptoms. I haven't seen enough evidence to label any particular CTer this way, although NESNYC comes close.

3. I think the biggest form of mental illness that is rampant in that movement are the "Personality Disorders". In particular, we see "Passive Agressive" and "Borderline" Personality traits in many of those we encounter. A couple of them might even fit into the Sociopath/Psychopath catagories.

4. I also think that Depression probably pops up more often in that group, than in the general populus.

5. In general, most are just caught up in the "importance" of the "movement" and a sense of "belonging" to something that is "Rebelling" against the status quo. It is the perfect recruiting structure for alot of 20 something single men without good social networks or supports.

My Expert Opinion.
 
I'd have to agree with T.A.M. and SoT. Schizophrenia and psychosis are rarely if ever focussed enough to create the 9/11 conspiracy theories. "Disordered" or "loose" thinking is one of the hallmarks of those illnesses. Borderline Personality Disorder and just plain neurosis is more than enough to explain the observed behavior of most CTers.

But we should not ignore the fact that the psychological phenomena that make conspiracies attractive are well-known and well-distributed throughout "normal" individuals. The desire for big effects to have big causes is so strong, people will "remember" having observed causes when it is known they only observed effects. The overestimation of one's own importance in the world is the reason why CTers think they have some special insight that they have to get out to the public; but it's also the reason why people bother to vote.

We don't need abnormal psychology to explain most of this. Plain old psychology will do.
 
i feel alot of the CTers dont suffer from "full blown" schitzophrenia, but perhaps they are just imbalanced enough for it to cause problems, while remaining undiagnosed
 
Loss Leader said:
Borderline Personality Disorder and just plain neurosis is more than enough to explain the observed behavior of most CTers.
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I know somebody who has Borderline Personality Disorder. I hadn't thought about it before you mention this, but a certain poster on here seems to dsiplay very similar traits to my friend. It's always the same few subjects that set him off, never just somethign random, although something that appears random to me he will link to his main topics. That whole connecting the dots thing fits in well.
 
Histrionic is another one of the PDs that fits in with alot of those in the CT community.
 
I think the "uninformed" Cters are the most common. They are just regular people with a justifiable but misdirected grudge against the Bush administration. They are so angry at them that they can't think it through critically.
 
Pardalis said:
I think the "uninformed" Cters are the most common. They are just regular people with an justifiable but misdirected grudge against the Bush administration. They are so angry at them that they can't think it through critically.
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i think most of them will lose interest in 2008, leaving only the "core" of super devotees
 
Agreed T.A.M. - I'm no expert, but I have dated a borderliner and my maternal family has a history of full-blown mental illness, and your average...enthusiastic CT seems to me more on the personality disorder side.
 
Arkan_Wolfshade said:
I think there are several categories:
* mentally ill: ex. Christophera, Sir Knight
* stupid: geggy
* malicious: killtown
* uninformed: ? (I know they're out there, but prolly not real vocal)
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Pardalis said:
I think the "uninformed" Cters are the most common. They are just regular people with a justifiable but misdirected grudge against the Bush administration. They are so angry at them that they can't think it through critically.
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* blinded by agenda: Brumsen?
 
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I agree Pardalis, provided, which I think likely, that the Democrats win. If Republicans win again, it will remain the same loony bin, unless Condaleeza Rice is President, then maybe things will settle down, even with REPS in power...
 
I agree Pardalis, provided, which I think likely, that the Democrats win. If Republicans win again, it will remain the same loony bin, unless Condaleeza Rice is President, then maybe things will settle down, even with REPS in power...
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Yet they will still be under the power of the illuminati! Hmmm!
I'm thinken by then most of the current crop will realise how silly they have been! Then go over to the UFO crowd! It does poll better. IMHO.
 
Pardalis said:
I think the "uninformed" Cters are the most common.
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Please. Do you know how many people I encounter who still think that 9/11 was caused by Saddam Hussein? My secretary refuses to believe that no Iraqis were among the terrorists. Lack of information coupled with undeserved trust in the government is just as dangerous as lack of information coupled with undeserved suspicion of the government.
 
You are absolutely right, which is why it is important for those who post here, and on Debunking sites, to make sure the information, and its presentation, is paramount, and opinions and debate, second...
 
defaultdotxbe said:
i think most of them will lose interest in 2008, leaving only the "core" of super devotees
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At the rate people are getting banned over at LC I doubt they will last another six months. They banned Killtown because he dared to ask questions.
I don't know if it is mental illness, but it sure looks like Fascism.
Dissent will not be tolerated!!
How they have the hide to call the gov. Fascist is beyond me.
 
Looking through a lot of the threads on here I would say there is a lot of "look at me I'm special, I know something you don't, I know whats REALLY going on" types amongst the CTers. It's like people who think they are psychic. The corpse at every funeral and the bride at every wedding.

Some are just loopy-loo though......
 
Loss Leader said:
Please. Do you know how many people I encounter who still think that 9/11 was caused by Saddam Hussein? My secretary refuses to believe that no Iraqis were among the terrorists. Lack of information coupled with undeserved trust in the government is just as dangerous as lack of information coupled with undeserved suspicion of the government.
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Yeah, but those people don't rally and post BS all over the web.

But you're right, people like you described tend to blindly support politics they know nothing about, and without understanding the real implications.
 
T.A.M. said:
Great comments, and very astute observations.

I do have extensive training and experience with patients that suffer from mental illness.

My observations on most CTers are as follows:
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Interesting post TAM. Just wondering, do you think some of the more extreme cases could possibly be suffering from schizotypal personality disorder?

-Andrew
 
Gumboot;

That is a very astute observation actually. Schizotypal PD is relatively new, in terms of acceptance in the mainstream of medicine, but since then we have come to believeit is one of the more common PDs.

You can look up the exact DSM IV Criteria, yourself, I am sure, but in general, a Schizotypal PD patient would fit the following example:

J.D. is a 25 y man who presents to you, with his mother. Through her history, for he gives very little, she reveals that J.D. hasn't been able to hold down a job for very long. He constantly buries himself in his computer activities which tend to consist of online Role Playing Games, and Web sites on the Fantastical and Paranormal.

Now all that in itself, does not seem that abnormal, but J.D. seems to have become obsessed with this, claiming that witches really, did exist, and still do today. As well, he claims that since he has been online, and looking into the actions of the government, strange things have been happening around him, and he now feels the CIA and FBI are "hot on his tail".

Even more odd, is J.D.'s appearance. He is dressed in all black, including black gloves, and he holds a black beanie in his hands...


Now that is just an example, and one would have to get more history, to confirm he meets the DSM IV Criteria, before diagnosing this guy, but he is not far off one particular case I encountered, about 2 years ago...
 
T.A.M. said:
:

J.D. is a 25 y man who presents to you, with his mother.
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As J.D. are my actual initials, I take great insult in your case study. There are 26 letters in the alphabet, meaning that you would have just a 1 in 676 chance of choosing my initials. This is so low as to be negligible, meaning that you must have chosen those letters to refer to me.

Furthermore, I will have you know that I have never been conclusively diagnosed as mentally ill by an American-trained doctor.
 
I think it's possible to have schizophrenia and then pick up CT's in the process of trying to understand the world through paranoid eyes, especially if the person spends a lot of time twiddling a mouse on the internet.

My sister's delusion incorporates a variety of CT topics such as a shadowy all-controlling government, chemtrails, mind control and weather control, all woven together to explain her hallucinations.

In the process, she has created her own quite sophisticated "Evil Government Performing High-Tech Medical Experiments On Us Against Our Will via Remote Sensing/Radiowave Technology" CT that is damn near impossible to reason with, because a lot of her "evidence" is real and factual information. She just interprets it in a completely upside-down and paranoid manner.
 
Loss Leader;

your lack of smilies has me worried...you were joking right. I had no idea what your initials were...

And us Canuck MDs are just as good eh.:)
 
T.A.M. said:
Loss Leader;

your lack of smilies has me worried...you were joking right. I had no idea what your initials were...

And us Canuck MDs are just as good eh.:)
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I guess I'm not established enough around here for people to know my sense of humor. I just liked the idea of arguing that 1 in 676 is exactly the same as zero. I will use emoticons from now on. Unless you really were talking about me in which case, it's on, buddy. Oh, it's on. :)
 
brumsen said:
Explain yourself.
Also, I'd be really interested as to why I should be classified as a CT'er. On the basis of which posts, for example?
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Sorry. Didn't see this here before.

Based on your posts expressing suspicion about the omission of a detailed analysis of NIST's rejection of the explosives hypothesis, starting about here
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1818776#post1818776
I get the distinct impression that you're actively seeking information that would validate an Inside Job theory.

Since you seem rational and skeptical for the most part, I suspect that you dislike and distrust the Bush adminstration to the degree that you regard anything remotely connected to it with suspicion, clouding your judgment.

It's only a suspicion, though--I recognize that I could be wrong, thus the question mark.
 
Cleon said:
I wonder how much mental illness has to do with CTists.
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Gordon the Aggie needs only emotion, or hatred, to play that game. This thread's premise smacks of "attack the arguer, not his argument."

"You must be crazy to be in disagreement with me" or "you must be mentally ill to hold that opinion." Leave it at misinformed, or wilfully misinformed due to a strong emotional motivation (hatred or envy) and leave it at that.

"Mentally Ill" is a slur, just as "Kike", "Nazi", "Flaming Liberal" "Cracker" or "Anti Semite" is a slur, a label, and a deliberate attempt to paint the person you disagree with as something inferior to you.

So, what is your motivation for demonizing your opponents in this matter? Is it emotional? By the way, mea cupla, I have done this sort of thing any number of times myself, both here and on other forums.

To see where I am coming from, try reading some of kurios_kathy's posts in the Bumper Sticker thread over in the Religion forum. She fumes with frustration that some folks don't "get" why she believes in God.

Your frustration with the CT crowd is manifesting in a similar fashion.

A person can be wrong without being crazy.

*Brushes shoulder repeatedly*

"Get 'em offa me!" :eek:

DR
 
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