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Old 30th August 2006, 10:27 AM   #1
Ryan O'Dine
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Need Debunk of Anti-AIDS Molecular ďDeviceĒ

I have a friend who is enamored with the conspiracy theories of a certain Rabbi Marvin S. Antelman, author of To Eliminate the Opiate. I donít think I can bend his belief in these theories (ďthe Jews are out to destroy the Jews, but the Jews can save themĒ in a nutshell), but I may have a kind of back door to the author: the Rabbi is also Dr. Marvin S. Antelman, inventor of Tetrasil.

Quote:
Dr. Antelman, whose work throughout the years has varied from innovative designs for nuclear submarine reactors and smart card batteries, discovered that silver (Ag) actually is formed by Ag and Ag3, and it is this discovery that lead him to the development of Tetrasil. (Tetrasil is not colloidal silver.) Through the construction of a molecular sized semiconductor, Dr. Antelman was able to force natural silver (which is actually ag2) into its two separate components of Ag and Ag3 and to keep them separate, thus retaining the potential for an electron discharge.
... snip...
Pathogens (bacteria and virii alike) are drawn to the device by strong covalent forces, and when they come into contact with the machine they are locked into place by these forces. The extra
electron charge is then free to make its way to the other side of the Tetrasil machine by traversing the cellular membrane of the pathogen, which it immediately does. The 2 volt discharge electrocutes the pathogen in the process. (Source)
Detailed technical descriptions, including the text of several patents (many of which seem to have been abandoned according to the USPTO), can be found here.

Antleman claims to work for the Weizman Institute in Israel. He seems to be a legitimate chemist, but searching the Instituteís website gives no hits.

There are sites which describe him as compassionate, and not in it for the money. I donít know about the money, but he is the same Rabbi Antelman who --

Quote:
... developed the lard-laden ammo for use against devout Muslims, who believe any contact with pig flesh robs the soul of its chance to enter paradise. ...snip... His sentiments are best summed up in the words of a villain in a less respected work, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer": "Kill him. Kill him a lot." (Source)
College chemistry became a dim memory twenty minutes after I beakered my last pipette. Iím hoping someone can debunk this so that a person with little chemistry can explain it and no chemistry can understand it. Be prepared for a lot of stupid follow-up questions.

Anyone?
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Old 30th August 2006, 10:44 AM   #2
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Quote:
Pathogens (bacteria and virii alike) are drawn to the device by strong covalent forces, and when they come into contact with the machine they are locked into place by these forces. The extra
electron charge is then free to make its way to the other side of the Tetrasil machine
Silver is known to have anti-pathogenic effects and is even found in regular plasters (band-aids for Americanians). I haven't researched too thouroughly, but I can't see anything obviously wrong with the patents. As far as I know silver metal on it's own is toxic to all cells (as are most heavy metals) so it is only used as a direct application, as in plasters, rather than ingested. I have seen nothing to suggest a method how his invention could select only pathogens and not just kill any cell.

The claims that he cured 8 out of 10 AIDS patients is extremely unlikely since this would have been reported extensively and would have revolutionised AIDS treatment worldwide. I can only assume this is an outright lie.
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Old 30th August 2006, 11:15 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Cuddles View Post
Silver is known to have anti-pathogenic effects and is even found in regular plasters (band-aids for Americanians). I haven't researched too thouroughly, but I can't see anything obviously wrong with the patents. As far as I know silver metal on it's own is toxic to all cells (as are most heavy metals) so it is only used as a direct application, as in plasters, rather than ingested. I have seen nothing to suggest a method how his invention could select only pathogens and not just kill any cell.

The claims that he cured 8 out of 10 AIDS patients is extremely unlikely since this would have been reported extensively and would have revolutionised AIDS treatment worldwide. I can only assume this is an outright lie.
Thank you.

His AIDS trials were conducted introvenously. I found one internet doctor who responded like this:

Quote:
I first thought that Tetrasil was just another harmless and ineffective treatment promoted by herb merchants. The patent reports are beyond imagination and show that this is really scary stuff!

Data are presented with intravenous infusions of Tetrasil in a clinic in Honduras for people with the "candidiasis etiological category of AIDS". Well, did they have HIV at all? One would never know from this "research report".

"All were terminal, some, however, were in moderate condition, and others in poor" What is this nonsense about terminal AIDS patients?

"...indicates whether hepatomegaly occurred. This was an unfortunate consequence of the treatment which resulted in enlarged livers in all patients except the second one" Unfortunate, indeed!

As I read this patent report detailing the "cure" or AIDS with Tetrasil my overwhelming sense was that the evidence presented would fail a 5th grade science project. But beyond that, the studies detailed were unethical to the exteme.

Stay away from this stuff like the plague!

(Source)
Antelman defines AIDS according to: "Is The AIDS Virus A Science Fiction?" by Peter H. Duesberg and Bryan J. Ellison, Policy Review, Summer 1990, pp. 40-51. Which is summarized here.

As far as I can tell, Tetrasil distinguishes pathogens by the following:

Quote:
EJCs [Electron Jumping Compounds such as Tetrasil --ed.] have a natural attraction to specific biochemical functional groups of the elements sulfur, nitrogen and phosphorous, one of which is expressed by certain proteins on the membrane surface of cancer cells and all rapidly proliferating pathogens (bacteria, fungi, viruses, and protozoa).

Upon contact, a multi-stage chemical reaction is triggered:

Covalent bonding with the target
Release of electrical energy (nano-electrocution) through a reduction/oxidation process
Release of highly active singlet oxygen.
This action effectively ensures the targetís death. No other drug or anti-microbial functions in this way. The unique method of action of the Companyís compounds has the potential to establish a new class of medicine.(Source.)
And from Patent #5,336,499
Quote:
When the tetroxide crystals are utilized to destroy pathogens, they will not do so unless activated by an oxidizing agent. This is analogous to the behavior of single semiconducting photovoltaic molecular devices such as copper indium selenide whose surfaces must be "etched" in order to activate the photovoltaic activity, i.e., for light to facilitate the release of electrons from the molecule. The tetroxide was activated by persulfates. It was found that when the persulfates were tested as a control by themselves, they failed to exhibit any unilateral antipathogenic activity at the optimum level selected of 10 PPM. The persulfates evaluated varied from Oxone (Registered Trademark Du Pont Company) brand potassium monopersulfate to alkali peroxydisulfates.
Make any sense?
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Old 30th August 2006, 11:31 AM   #4
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I'm not a doctor but ... um ... it sounds like he's poisoning people with silver. I cannot see any way a device that works at the atomic level could distinguish between a virus and a normal cell.
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Old 30th August 2006, 01:03 PM   #5
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"biochemical functional groups of the elements sulfur, nitrogen and phosphorous, one of which is expressed by certain proteins on the membrane surface of cancer cells and all rapidly proliferating pathogens (bacteria, fungi, viruses, and protozoa)."

And probably also found on the surface of every healthy cell.


Just because he got a patent don't mean the stuff actually works.
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Old 30th August 2006, 03:08 PM   #6
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I realize Iím asking for a very technical debunk, but I really need solid ammo. Antelman looks for all the world like a snake oil salesman and self-promoter, but so far I have only circumstantial evidence. Since he makes what appear to be very definitive but questionable scientific claims, Iím targeting them as his weak point.

If thereís a better way, Iím all ears.
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Old 30th August 2006, 03:49 PM   #7
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Pure BS, first of all Virus have no cellular membrane (because they are not cells) so even in the very remote case that the device works as he said, that would mean nothing.

And second, in virology the electric shock mediated transfection is a common procedure to insert viral genetic material (among other things) inside a cell, kind off a forced infection. So the device would be helping pathogens instead of killing them. The good thing is that his patent is completely bogus so most probably it will do absolutely nothing (except for fooling people)
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Old 30th August 2006, 05:58 PM   #8
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I'll send a link of this thread to my best friend. He's a professor at the University of Kentucky and his areas of research, according to the faculty listing, are: Polymer nanocarriers, protein, enzyme and drug delivery, vascular drug targeting, xenobiotic detoxification, and pharmaceutical engineering. Since cellular biology is his thing I'm sure he can at least tell you whether your suspicions are valid.

Steven
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Old 31st August 2006, 05:46 AM   #9
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I got an email from my friend. He's going to look into it more so as to provide a more authoritative answer for you, but his preliminary examination doesn't look good, for the AIDS treatment that is.

Steven
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Old 31st August 2006, 06:27 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post
Pure BS, first of all Virus have no cellular membrane (because they are not cells) so even in the very remote case that the device works as he said, that would mean nothing.

And second, in virology the electric shock mediated transfection is a common procedure to insert viral genetic material (among other things) inside a cell, kind off a forced infection. So the device would be helping pathogens instead of killing them. The good thing is that his patent is completely bogus so most probably it will do absolutely nothing (except for fooling people)
Thank you. I googled "electric shock mediated transfection" and found some good articles. Great stuff.

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
I got an email from my friend. He's going to look into it more so as to provide a more authoritative answer for you, but his preliminary examination doesn't look good, for the AIDS treatment that is.
Wonderful! Thank you.
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Old 31st August 2006, 06:31 AM   #11
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This is his initial impression:


Quote:
Hi Steve,
Let me look into this a little bit more. to give more thoughtful insight and not just first glace problems.


Yes silver has antimicrobial properties. mostly it involves metobolic arrest and possible acting as a prooxidant. In either case, it is going to have toxic effects on native tissue. It's just a question of dose. And since heavy metals take long long times to be eliminated form the body, i can say it very likely to result in build up of toxic amounts. Silver has been looked at as a coat for bioimplants, but these levels are way below concern.

1.) Is the claim that it cures AIDS or HIV? HIV is a retrovirus As such, you need to either kill all host cells that are infected (Which is most likely deadly to full blow aids patients) or provide some means of removing the HIV encoded DNA. So I can say fairly confidently that an AIDS(HIV) cure is nonsense.

2.) Drawn by "Covalent Forces"? What does this mean? are viruses covalently bonding to the device? What ends the bond? is it a 1:1 kill. If he is talking about Affinity, it's driven by weak associations, the non-covalent forces; hydrogen bonding, dispersive effects, electrochemical associations.

3.) I don't really get the Ag AG(3) tweezer-shock idea. what's the distance between the two ions? is it variable? How? does the Device lay across a virus or bacteria diameter? that's a size difference of 2-8nm vs. 200-800nm. Can it fit both? If so, why couldn't any protien fit? any cell? couldn't counter ions also interfere?

4.) Where does the electron that "shocks" the cell come from? 2 volt? How was that measured? Isn't the voltage going to be determined by the dialectric (cell/virus)?

5.) Once the virus/cell is shocked, what releases it? Is it spent?

6.) is Ag-AG3 is this a reference to the valency or is it a 1 atom to 3 atom cluster issue?

There are too many simple questions that need to be answered. It's the inventors responsibility to prove claims at every level that it does what he says it does. without that analysis, I can only treat the "invention" as I would treat any philisophical concept. Interesting to talk about, but not very useful without the data.

I truly hope human trials weren't conducted. That's too terrible to imagine. If he has something exciting, then do the animal studies to show it. Or cell culture. 1 or 2 peer reviewed papers would go a long way to substantiate these claims. And it wouldn't hinder the patent either. In fact, it'd aide it. provide more credance and proof of origination of the idea.





that's the best I can do for now. Hope it helps the JREF crowd. I feel like I have a tough crowd to live up to and don't want to let them down.
Love
Tom
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Old 31st August 2006, 07:29 AM   #12
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I've got a more definitive answer for you.

Quote:
Allright, I've looked into it a little more and can now givea a little better opinion.

First my one question on electron source seems to be answered kinda. It seems they claim it has 1 electron to do this action and once it's gone, it's gone. It then claims to "chelate" the silver to allow for liver clearance. hmm, maybe that's ok. But this would indicate that 1 virus or bacteria could interact with multiple silver devices which could result in toxic aggregates in the liver. But again, this is pure conjecture.

Also, those metal forms exist. Although require special conditions. And whether they can exist in the 1 to 3 atom form, I don't know. Maybe possible. But will it remain in that form in a biological setting, where many charged species, reactable components, high redeucing and oxidizing conditions exist? Unlikely. But that isn't the issue.

The greatest red flag of all is that there are too many small errors to trust the overall claim. If I was reviewing a grant and it had even one of these errrors, I would be forced to dismiss it. I'm not talking disputed scientific ideas, I mean just facts are wrong.

1.) Claim made that it is a Class IV FDA drug, so it's safe. This is just wrong. there are two main types of class IV. Class IV substance could mean "little to no potential for abuse" not safe. You wouldn't expect an antiviral drug to have an abuse potential, unless a side effect was neurological(like, euphoria, sedative..). The other class IV (And more likely the one they allude to) is that an oral dosage is likely to have low solubility and intestinal permeability. In otherwords, if you eat it, it's not going to end up in your blood stream to have any pharmacological effect. A pencap would be class IV. Oral/external safety are completely different from injectable safety. Again, you couldn't inject a pencap, but you could eat it.

2.) A check at the FDA website shows that Tetrasil it isn't approved for anything. There is an oinment by the same name with the exact same "active substance"(tetrasilver tetraoxide) marketed by an israeli group. I can only assume the same people. Anyway, even in this indication where you would expect easy FDA approval (silver is a known antibioitic, and this is just a topical cream), they haven't obtained it. That speaks volumes of the real intent behind the company.

3.) They claim an indication for feline AIDS, stating " for which FDA approval is not needed." Again, COMPELTELY WRONG. FDA approves all vet drugs. There's a whole FDA branch "the center for Vet. Medicine" for such regulations.

4.)"as treatment for drinking water and waste water (no poisonous
chlorine needed any longer)" Poisonous Chlorine? Chlorine is poisonous based on concentration. Same as ANY compound. Water Treatment using chlorine has been effective and safe for decades. why is this better?

5.) The mechanism of silver ions as an antimicrobial is still not fully known. to claim that this form is better would need side by side comparisons with silver forms. and to prove the mechanism for action. Again, too many untested, unverified assumptions. Many great ideas do start out that way, but a good scientist will fill in the loose details. there doesn't seem to be any intent in doing this.

Finally: from the article "Tetrasil has the potential to cure practically all disease caused
by pathogens, from TB, to the common cold. Dr. Antelman, an
orthodox rabbi, is a righteous man, who seeks to help ease human
suffering, not profit from it. (Rabbi Marvin S. Antelman is
a member of The Supreme Rabbinic Court, aka 'the Sanhedrin',
the oldest established court in the world.)

The Foundation for Incurable Diseases needs public support to
bring this modern miracle to the people of the world.


The pharmaceutical industry is already rallying to stonewall
distribution of Tetrasil, because it will replace all their
poisonous (and highly profitable) treatments for AIDS -- all of
which will kill a healthy person. Help us fight the true killers
-- the pharmaceutical industry. More people die from treatment for
AIDS than from the disease itself. The time has come to cease this
nonsense. "

This is all garbage. Who cares more for patients. The people who spend years in in vitro and in vivo testing to verify safety efficiacy before ANY human trial is done? Or the person who injects 10 people with a drug without any published prior safety data? I can't explain how angry that makes me. If you care so much for the people, publish all data and findings in the literature. DON'T PATENT THE IDEA. Patents are a protection of intellectual property. They are a way to ensure you make money from an idea. If you cared for everyone, you'd want the entire scientific community to do research on it. To determine ALL of the potential indications. Get it to market faster through the acedemic community at large. Use academic cGMP facilities to produce formulations for phase trials. Get all the generic manufacturers to produce it. No, there is no altruism here. It's pure greed. The intent I see is to make a product with as little research as possible. Not to keep make an inexpensive product, but to make as much money as possible.
Your friend doesn't sound like the sort who requires a high standard of evidence, but I know if he was a regular on this forum he would be reluctant to accept an anonymous evaluation. I don't think Tom will mind if I identify him as Dr. Thomas Dziubla at the University of Kentucky. The above should give you some powerful ammunition in your debate.

Steven
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Old 31st August 2006, 07:58 AM   #13
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Foster Zygote, thank you! I hope you will thank Dr. Dziubla for me as well. I intend to quote him verbatim -- if thatís not okay for any reason, please let me know.

I was about to post regarding the Tetrasil ointment. Looks like the doctor beat me to it. Iíll just quote from the fine print at the bottom of the website:
Quote:
Tetrasil has not been evaluated or approved by the U.S. Food & Drug Administration (FDA).
Tetrasil is not intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease.
Tetrasil is not intended to affect the structure or any function of the body of man or other animals.
Tetrasil is intended for the cleansing, beautifying and moisturizing of the human body.
In other words, if you stick ďsilver oxideĒ into a mash containing a bunch of moisturizers, you'll get... a moisturizer.

There's some great ammo here. Hopefully, I can influence my friend, and anybody else who brings up Antelman in my presence.

Thanks again, FZ. And if anyone has anything to add -- by all means.
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Old 31st August 2006, 08:23 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine View Post
Foster Zygote, thank you! I hope you will thank Dr. Dziubla for me as well. I intend to quote him verbatim -- if that’s not okay for any reason, please let me know.
Tom is a man of the highest integrity who stands by his word. If he wrote it you are certainly welcome to quote him. He's about the nicest, most easy going guy you could meet but quack medicine is to him as Niagara Falls to the Stooges. Glad we could help.

Steven

Humbly
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Last edited by Foster Zygote; 31st August 2006 at 08:26 AM. Reason: Edited to humbly add that Tom, of course, did all the heavy lifting.
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Old 31st August 2006, 08:29 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine View Post
In other words, if you stick ďsilver oxideĒ into a mash containing a bunch of moisturizers, you'll get... a moisturizer.
Tetrasil: Apply directly to the forehead.
Tetrasil: Apply directly to the forehead.
Tetrasil: Apply directly to the forehead.
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Old 1st September 2006, 08:36 AM   #16
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Say Ryan, it's occurred to me that the info you've uncovered would make an excellent submission to Mr. Randi for possible inclusion in a future edition of SWIFT.

Steven
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Old 1st September 2006, 09:22 AM   #17
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I don't know why you people bothered amassing all that actual medical evidence when I said "sounds like he's poisoning people with silver" about fifteen posts ago. And you can trust my medical judgment because I ... have ... no education whatsoever in the subject.
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Old 2nd September 2006, 10:37 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Say Ryan, it's occurred to me that the info you've uncovered would make an excellent submission to Mr. Randi for possible inclusion in a future edition of SWIFT.

Steven
I'm putting the finishing touches on the letter to my friend (I want it all written out good and solid). Maybe I'll give Randi a whirl when that's done.

Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I don't know why you people bothered amassing all that actual medical evidence when I said "sounds like he's poisoning people with silver" about fifteen posts ago. And you can trust my medical judgment because I ... have ... no education whatsoever in the subject.
Neither, apparently, does Antelman. But you're one up -- at least you admit it.
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Old 2nd September 2006, 10:54 AM   #19
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Btw, in the conclusion of the letter to my friend (six pages, and still growing!), I wrote this, which Iím a little proud of:

Quote:
The way I see it, there are two kinds of belief -- thereís that which is believed because itís compelling, and that which is believed because itís factual. The former depends on the emotions for its truth value, the latter on verifiable reality. Oftentimes the facts are dull, hard, uninspiring. For my own part, Iíd rather believe in a real slab of cold, wet granite, than a magical box of pixie dust. The granite, with effort, can be carved into a statue for the ages. The pixie dust, examined too closely, dissolves in the light.
Itís either nifty or arrogant -- not sure which. I hope, at least, itís not insulting.
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Old 2nd September 2006, 11:31 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine View Post
Itís either nifty or arrogant -- not sure which. I hope, at least, itís not insulting.
I think it's elegantly stated. And unless your friend is overly sensitive I don't see how he could find anything insulting or condescending in it.

Steven
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Old 2nd September 2006, 03:29 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine View Post
Btw, in the conclusion of the letter to my friend (six pages, and still growing!), I wrote this, which Iím a little proud of:



Itís either nifty or arrogant -- not sure which. I hope, at least, itís not insulting.

I would change "compelling" to "interesting." Something boring can compel a person. A logical proof will compel people because it's right and people who use it get right verifiable answers. Something "interesting," however, compels not because of its rightness but because of the excitement it causes. Anyway, that's my belief. I'm not sure if it's interesting or compelling.
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Old 3rd September 2006, 08:02 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
I think it's elegantly stated. And unless your friend is overly sensitive I don't see how he could find anything insulting or condescending in it.

Steven
Thank you. My friend has a self-deprecating sense of humor, but Iím never entirely sure with him.

As an aside, FZ, if you want to email Randi about this, thereís no reason to stand on ceremony. Iíll probably get to it eventually, in my... own... plodding... way... but if youíre up for it, by all means.
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Old 3rd September 2006, 08:21 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I would change "compelling" to "interesting." Something boring can compel a person. A logical proof will compel people because it's right and people who use it get right verifiable answers. Something "interesting," however, compels not because of its rightness but because of the excitement it causes. Anyway, that's my belief. I'm not sure if it's interesting or compelling.
I may be arguing semantics here, but Iíll disagree a little with what you're saying.

Interesting things arenít necessarily believable, I think youíll agree. Only when something is SO interesting that it compels belief is conviction aroused. This is what I mean by compelling -- something which does ďinterestingĒ one better.

I found Antelmanís Tetrasil interesting, but even before I had the evidence I didnít believe it. This in contrast to, say, Karl Rove being the source of the Plame leak. That was interesting, but more -- compelling. I wanted to believe it, and so did. Recent evidence, however, points to my belief as the compelling, emotional kind, not the factual kind.

Boring things can compel too, I agree, but only if theyíre the factual kind (like a logical proof).
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Old 4th September 2006, 02:14 AM   #24
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Just a quick note about HIV in particular... HIV is an RNA virus which embeds itself within host cells by inserting a DNA copy of itself into the host cell DNA, rather like snipping a ribbon in two and stitching a small bit of differently coloured ribbon in the gap. This is called viral integration.

This "provirus" sits within the nucleus of the host cell, waiting a suitable opportunity to start reversing the process and making new RNA copies which eventually emerge from the cell as complete HIV virions when they have acquired a coating to envelop their RNA core.

The host cells can contain virus dormant (latent) inside them for many years, and there is absolutely no way any device such as described could affect the contained viral components without first killing all the cells (so yes you can cure HIV with electricity, but unfortunately you have to kill the human host first). So whatever this device might do (and I suspect absolutely nothing) it certainly cannot affect latent HIV.

HIV is only one example of this concept. The person flogging this device has a poor concept of how germs coexist with the host, and seems to think that viruses and other micro-organisms swim about merrily in the blood, asking to be zapped by any noxious stimulus. In fact evolution has resulted in a germ/host arms race with numerous organisms deploying sophisticated protective mechanisms to defend themselves from attack by the host. Many hide within host cells to make themselves invisible from attack, with the only way that they can be eradicated being for the cells themselves to be destroyed.

(HIV drugs work by being taken up by the cells, and inhibiting the enzymes HIV uses to replicate when makes copies of itself in the cell)
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Old 5th September 2006, 06:25 AM   #25
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Thank you, Deetee. Some very welcome clarification.

The letter to my friend has crept onto its 7th page. Clobbering him with facts -- I think itís the way to go.
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Old 5th September 2006, 07:11 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
He's about the nicest, most easy going guy you could meet but quack medicine is to him as Niagara Falls to the Stooges. Glad we could help.

I was about to ask you if you were confusing the Stooges with Abbott and Costello who did the Niagra Falls routine in their 1944 film "Lost in a Harum," but as I looked up the name of the film on the internet, I discovered that the Stooges did the routine as well. Given that the routine goes back to the days of vaudeville, probably neither group can claim credit.

ETA: for what its worth, Wikipedia credits Joey Faye as the originator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slowly_I_Turned

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Old 5th September 2006, 07:22 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I was about to ask you if you were confusing the Stooges with Abbott and Costello who did the Niagra Falls routine in their 1944 film "Lost in a Harum," but as I looked up the name of the film on the internet, I discovered that the Stooges did the routine as well. Given that the routine goes back to the days of vaudeville, probably neither group can claim credit.

ETA: for what its worth, Wikipedia credits Joey Faye as the originator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slowly_I_Turned
I'd forgotten about Bud and Lou. I remember that in the end of the Stooges short they did it with the car. =0)

Steven
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Old 5th September 2006, 07:24 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine View Post
Thank you, Deetee. Some very welcome clarification.

The letter to my friend has crept onto its 7th page. Clobbering him with facts -- I think itís the way to go.
I'm sure your letter has enough info, but I think later I might look into the claims about nuclear submarine reactors and smart card batteries.

Steven
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